Wal-Mart chooses between Unions and Death

[HBox]

They chose death. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6941643/)

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[Bulldogcakes]

Good for them. Unionizing their stores will lead to higher prices, shitty help, and losses for the stockholders. Draw a line in the sand. Their margins are so thin they cant withstand higher labor costs. They're notoriously tough on suppliers, too. But they pay their bills fast, so companies deal with them.

The reason the've suceeded where others have failed is they do everything for the Customer. Not management, employees, suppliers. Customers first, last and always.

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[torker]

Good for them.

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[torker]

Grease the wheels of capitalism with the blood of the proletariat and petroleum from the China National Offshore Corporation.
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[Cybersoldier]

Good for them for asking for better pay and working conditions

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[Death Metal Moe]

I love how when people hear you're against Unions, suddenly you're FOR more hours at less pay.

You think Unions are the answer to everything in labor? Because for every good thing you can site that Unionizing Wal Mart would do, I have a horror story for how my old Carpenter's Union sold the souls of their men in the hall for personal payoffs and handouts.

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[HBox]

The reason the've suceeded where others have failed is they do everything for the Customer

Like in this case, when they closed the store?

I love how when people hear you're against Unions, suddenly you're FOR more hours at less pay.

I didn't see anyone saying that. It just seems a bit childish that, when faced against a union, Wal-Mart decides it doesn't even want to try.

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This message was edited by HBox on 2-9-05 @ 8:32 PM

[FUNKMAN]

Their margins are so thin


?

don't the owners have three family members that make the Forbes top ten every year... multi-billionaires

spread the wealth please

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[Bulldogcakes]

Like in this case, when they closed the store?

Absolutely. Sometimes you have to close one store, if keeping it open will hurt all the rest.

BTW Workers are MUCH better off now, right? How about a little blame for the UNION?

Old Union saying "We'll fight mangement till the last worker is there to turn off the lights"
Ahh, the spirit of collectivism, and cooperation.

don't the owners have three family members that make the Forbes top ten every year... multi-billionaires

Sure, and what's wrong with that? God bless them. You make it sound like success is an indictment of something sinister.

spread the wealth please

They do, their called STOCKS. And every American can buy as much they can afford to.

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[Death Metal Moe]

Don't waste your breath Bulldogcakes.

Big Bad Business is fucking the little man again no one wants to listen to reason.

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[mdr55]

Give me Wal-Mart or Give me death!

So much for the U.S. taking over Canada with Wal-Mart and it's "Made in the USA" merchandise. Will this affect US-Canada relations much??

I wonder if we'll see the Playboy issue of "Woman of Canadian Wal-Mart" bare all, just watch the falling apparels. Who's the next Pam Anderson?

[SatCam]

As long as mexicans are switching the wires on the circuit board that keep the internet running, I'm happy.

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[FUNKMAN]

Sure, and what's wrong with that? God bless them. You make it sound like success is an indictment of something sinister.


my point is they can pay their people several more dollars an hour, enhance their benefits and still be billionaires

what is wrong with that?

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/SatCam/sig_funkmanstill.jpg">

[Death Metal Moe]

Sure, and what's wrong with that? God bless them. You make it sound like success is an indictment of something sinister.


my point is they can pay their people several more dollars an hour, enhance their benefits and still be billionaires

what is wrong with that?

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/SatCam/sig_funkmanstill.jpg">



The problem is the end result of your idea is Communism and it failed.

"You have a lot, just give........a little more for the common good. Now a little more, no, more. MORE."

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[FUNKMAN]

what do you think is causing more people to go into poverty and wealthy people becoming wealthier?

just an honest answer please!

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[Bulldogcakes]

my point is they can pay their people several more dollars an hour, enhance their benefits and still be billionaires

what is wrong with that
Oh, right. Like K-Mart did. The company that has 10% of the sales that Walmart does, and is in bankruptcy.

So you know better on how to run Walmart than the people who do it for a living do? Right. Hey, while you're at it, why dont you tell the Pope how to give Mass?

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This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 2-9-05 @ 9:58 PM

[mdr55]

what do you think is causing more people to go into poverty and wealthy people becoming wealthier?

just an honest answer please!


Capatalism at it's best. Who said it doesn't work?

This message was edited by mdr55 on 2-9-05 @ 10:00 PM

[Death Metal Moe]

what do you think is causing more people to go into poverty and wealthy people becoming wealthier?

just an honest answer please!


Capatalism at it's best.



Yea, you're right. Let's be more like Germany, with 10-15% unemployment and no growth in their economy.

A Socialist's Paradise!

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[Bulldogcakes]

what do you think is causing more people to go into poverty and wealthy people becoming wealthier?

just an honest answer please!

More people going into poverty? The unemployment rate is 5%, which economists consider to be full employment.
The standard of living is among the highest on the PLANET and has never been higher in human history.

Rich getting richer? This is ridiculous.
Why do Baseball players hit more homers than the rest of us?
Why do Writers write more best sellers than the rest of us?
Why do rich people make more money than the rest of us?


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This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 2-9-05 @ 10:05 PM

[FUNKMAN]

Capatalism at it's best.


that's a good answer

i also think 'as i stated in other threads and bulldog mentioned in the opening of this thread' is the stock market

cut your profit from 10 billion to 5 billion and the price of the stock goes down

it's another factor if not the key factor that's causing the divide to widen



<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/SatCam/sig_funkmanstill.jpg">

[HBox]

Don't waste your breath Bulldogcakes.

Big Bad Business is fucking the little man again no one wants to listen to reason.

The problem is the end result of your idea is Communism and it failed.

Let's be more like Germany, with 10-15% unemployment and no growth in their economy.

A Socialist's Paradise!

You've become a running parody.

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[Bulldogcakes]

it's another factor if not the key factor that's causing the divide to widen

That gets repeated over and over again as if its true.
Prove it.

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[HBox]

More people going into poverty? The unemployment rate is 5%, which economists consider to be full employment.

I'd just like to point out that the question doesn't neccessarily have anything to do, and in this thread definitely has nothing to do, with the answer.

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[Death Metal Moe]

Don't waste your breath Bulldogcakes.

Big Bad Business is fucking the little man again no one wants to listen to reason.

The problem is the end result of your idea is Communism and it failed.

Let's be more like Germany, with 10-15% unemployment and no growth in their economy.

A Socialist's Paradise!

You've become a running parody.



You would know.

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[mdr55]

Yea, you're right. Let's be more like Germany, with 10-15% unemployment and no growth in their economy.

Didn't the WWs start because of that???

[FUNKMAN]

The unemployment rate is 5%, which economists consider to be full employment.


60% of the people who were laid off and regained employment did so for lower salaries... and most likely less benefits

their mortgages or rent did not go down, their medical costs did not go down... basically their 'cost of living' continued to increase

recent articles on CNN.com confirmed executives have recently received continued record bonuses and salary increases



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[Bulldogcakes]

You've become a running parody.

Is that all you have? He at least cited some facts, and you have nothing to offer but insults? Thanks for your valuable contribution, as usual.

Let Us Trim Our Hair In Accordance with Socialist Lifestyle!

Parody? And this is what, funny?

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[HBox]

Oh, right. Like K-Mart did. The company that has 10% of the sales that Walmart does, and is in bankruptcy.

There are many ways in which Wal-Mart does business, most ingenious and only one of which is their treatment of workers, that has led them to take the whooping stick out on K-Mart.

Let Us Trim Our Hair In Accordance with Socialist Lifestyle!

This message was edited by HBox on 2-9-05 @ 10:16 PM

[Bulldogcakes]

I'd just like to point out that the question doesn't neccessarily have anything to do, and in this thread definitely has nothing to do, with the answer.

I can only explain it to you, H-Box. I cant comprehend it for you.

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[Death Metal Moe]

Wow, NOW I remember why I stayed out of the political forum before I left.

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[HBox]

I love how when people hear you're against Unions, suddenly you're FOR more hours at less pay.

You think Unions are the answer to everything in labor? Because for every good thing you can site that Unionizing Wal Mart would do, I have a horror story for how my old Carpenter's Union sold the souls of their men in the hall for personal payoffs and handouts.

Don't waste your breath Bulldogcakes.

Big Bad Business is fucking the little man again no one wants to listen to reason.

The problem is the end result of your idea is Communism and it failed.

"You have a lot, just give........a little more for the common good. Now a little more, no, more. MORE."

Yea, you're right. Let's be more like Germany, with 10-15% unemployment and no growth in their economy.

A Socialist's Paradise!

That's everyone of his posts. I see one thing that I assume is a fact, but I could check if I was a ballbuster. And I see one personal story. The rest is opinions and reactionary, Rush Limbaugh-type insults. I expected mroe from Moe, I like him, but there's no excuse for throwing out the sterotypes lie he's done here and in other threads lately.

Let Us Trim Our Hair In Accordance with Socialist Lifestyle!

[mdr55]

So where are the Canadians going to buy their walls now to build their homes?? I hope they have Home Depot there.



Serves them right. No hockey. No Wal-Mart!


No Way! :gasp:

[Bulldogcakes]

There are many ways in which Wal-Mart does business, most ingenious and only one of which is their treatment of workers, that has led them to take the whooping stick out on K-Mart.

Right. Leftist supposition #1-You have to cheat in order to suceed. They of course, know how to run large companies so they are able to make such statements. I hereby nominate H-Box and Funkman to run Walmart. And we will measure their results against the evil, greedy professionals.

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[Death Metal Moe]

Wrong again HBox. You see one personal account of how Unions can be corrupt. You see a joke. You see a reaction to what Funkman said, and you see a joke mixed in with an actualy figure on the horrific economy in a European country.

If you're going to get defensive, then scrutinize one person's fucking positions, get it right.

And way to go back the old Limbaugh stand by accusation when I disagree with one of your positions.

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[HBox]

I can only explain it to you, H-Box. I cant comprehend it for you

I'll explain it to you, and while not being a complete asshole and throwing out needless insults like you manage to do in nearly every response.

Yes, unemployment pushes people into poverty. Underemployment and low wages also do the same thing, and are the relevant issues in this thread about Wal-Mart. While Wal-Mart creates jobs, many are part-time and those full-time ones pay low wages. Therefore, while creating jobs, it is still pushing people into poverty.

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[Doomstone]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35175-2004Aug26.html



Poverty Rate Up 3rd Year In a Row
More Also Lack Health Coverage

By Ceci Connolly and Griff Witte
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, August 27, 2004; Page A01

The number of Americans living in poverty or lacking health insurance rose for the third straight year in 2003, the Census Bureau announced yesterday, reflecting a job market that failed to match otherwise strong economic growth.

Overall, the median household income remained stagnant at $43,318, while the national poverty rate rose to 12.5 percent -- 35.9 million people -- last year, from 12.1 percent in 2002. Hit hardest were women, who for the first time since 1999 saw their earnings decline, and children. By the end of 2003, 12.9 million children lived in poverty.



I love people who read Atlas Shrugged once and think they have all the answers.

I'm thinking that description, or something similar, may apply...


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[Death Metal Moe]

But where's the Misery Index at?

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[Bulldogcakes]

You've become a running parody.

I'd just like to point out that the question doesn't neccessarily have anything to do, and in this thread definitely has nothing to do, with the answer.

That's everyone of his posts. I see one thing that I assume is a fact, but I could check if I was a ballbuster. And I see one personal story. The rest is opinions and reactionary, Rush Limbaugh-type insults.

I'll explain it to you, and while not being a complete asshole and throwing out needless insults like you manage to do in nearly every response.


H-Box NEVER engages in insults of any kind

H-Box, I'd prefer to have a civilized discussion with you, but you called my responses "Bullshit" and have now added "asshole" to your fine contributions. If you want insult, you got it. If you want debate, you got it. Your call.

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This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 2-9-05 @ 10:33 PM

[HBox]

You see a joke

Just a joke with no implications?

You see a reaction to what Funkman said

Yes, and you pull out the communism ard, second only to the Nazi card. The guy is just asking why Wal-Mart employees can't be paid more, and you jump all the way to the extreme.

you see a joke mixed in with an actualy figure on the horrific economy in a European country.

Again, you are jumping to another extreme. What does Germany have to do with anything?

If you're going to get defensive, then scrutinize one person's fucking positions, get it right

I thought I quoted Bulldogcakes in that post (I forgot to put it in there), where he said that you were stating facts. I wanted to point out you stated one.

And way to go back the old Limbaugh stand by accusation when I disagree with one of your positions

You took out the Communist card first, and you have been hurling stereotypes at me and others since you started posting here again. Treat others as you would like to treat them. if you want debate, fine. If you want name-calling, fine.

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[FUNKMAN]

there are rights and wrongs on both ends of this discussion... we shouldn't have to look at it as an arguement

there are flaws with unions and their are flaws in how some companies are managed. the problem is the worker is at a disadvantage if there is no union to help support him. if there are legitimate 'unfair labor' practices going on, what means does the worker have? You could say he can hire a lawyer but that can be quite expensive and most will not choose to move in that direction.

i work for a company and see first hand how Executive salaries have increased as the workers medical benefits have decreased and had to forego a yearly raise. i've seen first hand 'unfair labor' practices where the union has been able to get workers re-instated or cash settlements through the grievance process.

if the union and company can't agree they have arbitrators and other services provided by the gov't to help decide what is fair

their are abuses on both ends, with management and with unions... their is an overall good that each provide it's just not 100% on either end

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[Death Metal Moe]

HBox, I already tire of this huge "quote the last thing someone said" thread.

I brought up Communism because that was the end Funkman's suggestion would lead.

I brought up Germany because that is the direction Liberalism is leading us. Socialism, and it sucks.

I am done with this political bitch fight, so you don't need to respond to me, point by point. You turned this debate into somethe fucking retarded. Bulldogcakes can continue the good fight, if he has any patience left.

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This message was edited by Death_Metal Moe on 2-9-05 @ 10:40 PM

[torker]

I brought up Communism because that was the end Funkman's suggestion would lead.

I brought up Communism. Me. I did.

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This message was edited by torker1313 on 2-9-05 @ 10:43 PM

[mdr55]

Dudes. WTF??? We're fighting over Canada??? C'mon and smoke the peace pipe.

[HBox]

H-Box, I'd prefer to have a civilized discussion with you, but you called my responses "Bullshit" and have now added "asshole" to your fine contributions. If you want insult, you got it. If you want debate, you got it. Your call.

I said you made a bullshit argument.I didn't mean anything personal. I will call people out if they make stupid arguments, but I try (and sometimes fail) to keep it away from personal insults.

But you then went on to call me clueless, said I ignored reality, mocked me as a dumb General, accused me of reading only liberal news sources, and then in another thread asked me if I've ever seen a map.

If you did take that bullshit comment personally, I do apologize. I didn't mean it personally, but I don't stand back from thinking your argument made no sense.

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[mdr55]

Damn Maple Leaf lovers. Always looking for a fight.

[mdr55]

And it's Quebec for crying out loud. Didn't they want to secede??

Give peace a chance.

[Bulldogcakes]

First of all Funk, thank you for lowering the volume on this discussion

. if there are legitimate 'unfair labor' practices going on, what means does the worker have?

In New York, you have alot of avenues for remedy. First, there are State and Federal agencies who deal with these issues. There are law firms that deal exclusively with labor law. And there are community groups who can help steer you to all of the above.

i work for a company and see first hand how Executive salaries have increased as the workers medical benefits have decreased and had to forego a yearly raise.

I dont like companies who behave that way, but in any decent sized company, you could give the CEO's entire salary to the employees and it wouldn't add up to much per person. So the #'s just dont add up on that complaint



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[mdr55]

Don't forget the Canandian taxes. I wonder how much difference there is from the US.

[Doomstone]

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_15/b3878084_mz021.htm



BusinessWeek ran through the numbers from each company to compare Costco and Sam's Club, the Wal-Mart warehouse unit that competes directly with Costco. We found that by compensating employees generously to motivate and retain good workers, one-fifth of whom are unionized, Costco gets lower turnover and higher productivity. Combined with a smart business strategy that sells a mix of higher-margin products to more affluent customers, Costco actually keeps its labor costs lower than Wal-Mart's as a percentage of sales, and its 68,000 hourly workers in the U.S. sell more per square foot. Put another way, the 102,000 Sam's employees in the U.S. generated some $35 billion in sales last year, while Costco did $34 billion with one-third fewer employees.

Bottom line: Costco pulled in $13,647 in U.S. operating profit per hourly employee last year, vs. $11,039 at Sam's. Over the past five years, Costco's operating income grew at an average of 10.1% annually, slightly besting Sam's 9.8%.

...

The larger question here is which model of competition will predominate in the U.S. Costco isn't alone; some companies, even ones like New Balance Athletic Shoe Inc. that face cheap imports from China, have been able to compete by finding ways to lift productivity instead of cutting pay. But most executives find it easier to go the Wal-Mart route, even if shareholders fare just as well either way over the long run.

Yet the cheap-labor model turns out to be costly in many ways. It can fuel poverty and related social ills and dump costs on other companies and taxpayers, who indirectly pick up the health-care tab for all the workers not insured by their parsimonious employers. What's more, the low-wage approach cuts into consumer spending and, potentially, economic growth.

...

Look at how Costco pulls it off. Although Sam's $11.52 hourly average wage for full-timers tops the $9.64 earned by a typical Wal-Mart worker, it's still nearly 40% less than Costco's $15.97. Costco also shells out thousands more a year for workers' health and retirement and includes more of them in its health care, 401(k), and profit-sharing plans. "They take a very pro-employee attitude," says Rome Aloise, chief Costco negotiator for the Teamsters, which represents 14,000 Costco workers.

In return for all this generosity, Costco gets one of the most productive and loyal workforces in all of retailing. Only 6% of employees leave after the first year, compared with 21% at Sam's. That saves tons, since Wal-Mart says it costs $2,500 per worker just to test, interview, and train a new hire. Costco's motivated employees also sell more: $795 of sales per square foot, vs. only $516 at Sam's and $411 at BJ's Wholesale Club Inc. (BJ ), its other primary club rival. "Employees are willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done," says Julie Molina, a 17-year Costco worker in South San Francisco, Calif., who makes $17.82 an hour, plus bonuses.

MANAGEMENT SAVVY. Costco's productive workforce more than offsets the higher expense. Its labor and overhead tab, also called its selling, general, and administrative costs (SG&A), total just 9.8% of revenue. While Wal-Mart declines to break out Sam's SG&A, it's likely higher than Costco's but lower than Wal-Mart's 17%. At Target (TGT ), it's 24%. "Paying higher wages translates into more efficiency," says Costco Chief Financial Officer Richard Galanti.



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[Bulldogcakes]

Good post Doomstone. The marketplace will ultimately determine whether Walmarts business practices make sense or not. If Costco manages to have a more productive, efficient workforce and a better atmosphere for both customers and employees, their model will win out. Without any government interference.

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[mdr55]

Good post Doomstone. The marketplace will ultimately determine whether Walmarts business practices make sense or not. If Costco manages to have a more productive, efficient workforce and a better atmosphere for both customers and employees, their model will win out. Without any government interference.

But what about AMTRACK??? That shit ain't working and the gov't. keeps pouring money into it.

[HBox]

But what about AMTRACK??? That shit ain't working and the gov't. keeps pouring money into it.

Fuck Amtrak. I stick with the good ole Union Pacific.

Let Us Trim Our Hair In Accordance with Socialist Lifestyle!

[FUNKMAN]

Yet the cheap-labor model turns out to be costly in many ways. It can fuel poverty and related social ills and dump costs on other companies and taxpayers, who indirectly pick up the health-care tab for all the workers not insured by their parsimonious employers. What's more, the low-wage approach cuts into consumer spending and, potentially, economic growth.

...

Look at how Costco pulls it off. Although Sam's $11.52 hourly average wage for full-timers tops the $9.64 earned by a typical Wal-Mart worker, it's still nearly 40% less than Costco's $15.97. Costco also shells out thousands more a year for workers' health and retirement and includes more of them in its health care, 401(k), and profit-sharing plans. "They take a very pro-employee attitude," says Rome Aloise, chief Costco negotiator for the Teamsters, which represents 14,000 Costco workers.

In return for all this generosity, Costco gets one of the most productive and loyal workforces in all of retailing. Only 6% of employees leave after the first year, compared with 21% at Sam's. That saves tons, since Wal-Mart says it costs $2,500 per worker just to test, interview, and train a new hire. Costco's motivated employees also sell more: $795 of sales per square foot, vs. only $516 at Sam's and $411 at BJ's Wholesale Club Inc. (BJ ), its other primary club rival. "Employees are willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done," says Julie Molina, a 17-year Costco worker in South San Francisco, Calif., who makes $17.82 an hour, plus bonuses.



i am not tooting a horn here or saying 'told you so'.

These facts here are in line with what i have been saying and suggesting. It's not a 'tell-all' but it does reveal that paying your workers better can be better for the company and paying your workers less can lead to a further increase in poverty

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/SatCam/sig_funkmanstill.jpg">

[Recyclerz]

http://www.oneillgroup.co.uk/henry%20ford.gif

Looks like those Costco guys know who to steal their HR business models from.



<IMG SRC="http://www.hometown.aol.com/recyclerz/myhomepage/sigpic1.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US">
[b]Rooting for the Rapture to happen soon, so I can have my country back.[b]

[TheMojoPin]

While the Wal-mart reaction here is pretty cowardly, there's a reason unions in the US are at their lowest levels in history.

In short, they're a mess, and they're rarely better than the alternative.

They need to be fixed, pronto.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << I love my drug buddy... >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[CaptClown]

If they were going to cut meat-cutting out of the company because 11 guys wanted to unionize, why wouldn't they close a store?

Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army
Poison Clan rocks the world

[Bulldogcakes]

While the Wal-mart reaction here is pretty cowardly, there's a reason unions in the US are at their lowest levels in history.

In short, they're a mess, and they're rarely better than the alternative.

They need to be fixed, pronto.

They're collapsing from their own fundamental flaws, like Communism. The adversarial relationship between Labor and Management is the root of the problem. If/when Labor approaches Management as a partner, everyone can prosper. When they have an ideological hatred of Capitalism, they do nothing but damage, and drive businesses elsewhere.
The worst is when the economy is down, (Notably the Municipal unions in NY after 9/11) and they wont give an inch. Everyone else is losing their jobs and they demand increases. Unreasonable and irrational.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL77/857148/1548180/76422236.jpg


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[42nd-delay]

If/when Labor approaches Management as a partner, everyone can prosper. When they have an ideological hatred of Capitalism, they do nothing but damage, and drive businesses elsewhere.


Please. Without a union, most workers will be at the mercy of their employers and have no standing in any partnership. Some companies take good care of their workers, but most are looking at the bottom line (as strict capitalism says they should). They're interested in getting the labor as cheaply as possible. Unions have some issues, but as a concept, unionization is a natural countervailing force to corporations. And wanting a piece of the money being made is a far cry from being anti-Capitalism.

------------------------------

<img src="http://www.thewalkons.com/bluestates_sig.jpg">

"42nd-delay is the only person who's making sense." - Ron, 3-12-02

[CruelCircus]

60% of the people who were laid off and regained employment did so for lower salaries... and most likely less benefits

Well, of course.

At their new jobs, they're entry level employees. Or, at most they're less senior employees. They can't expect to be paid as long-time employees.


Oh, and as for that Costco vs. Sam's study, there's a very important overlooked factor- the power of Branding. I think when most people think of the big discount club, they most often will think of Costco. They were there first, they've been doing it longer, they should be better. That alone will tend to drive more people (and thus sales) towards a Costco vs. a Sam's Club.

Plus the article casually mentions that Walmart workers make much less than Costco AND Sam's Club employees, but breaks down no other sales numbers for Walmart proper. So, there is no proof that can be derived for Costco vs. Walmart as a whole- only vs. the Sam's Club division. It may be that Walmart's lower salaries compare more favorably in production vs. Costco than Sam's Club does.




This message was edited by CruelCircus on 2-12-05 @ 3:25 AM

[Yerdaddy]

They didn't compare Costco to Walmart because they are different business models. And branding isn't going to significantly undermine any of the other factors in the study, especially since Costco has never advertised outside of mailings to their own current members.

I worked for Costco for 14 years. In my opinion, the reason Costco is a success is for the reasons noted in the article - treat people right - customers, employees and stockholders. Walmart and Sam's, according to my experience and the many management and hourly employees that came over to Costco over the years, treats it's employees like Ron & Fez treat their producers. Costco has never locked their employees in the buildings overnight without a manager with a key to let them out in case of emergencies - Denver area Walmarts made the news a few years ago. Costco has never sued a community that didn't want them to build a store in their neighborhoods. Costco isn't going to build a store at the foot of the Teotehuican Mayan ruins against the will of the local people - Walmart is. From personal experience I can tell you that Costco makes a concerted effort to avoid carrying products contracted or subcontracted with child labor, sweatshops, or in places like Burma where doing business will support human rights abusers. I can also tell you from personal experience, as well as well-known cases like the Kathy Lee Gifford case years ago, that Walmart actively seeks out that kind of shit.

Problem is, both Costco and Walmart/Sams are successful businesses - Walmart moreso. What Walmart demonstrates is that being absolute pieces of shit to any human being that doesn't effect your bottom line is an effective way of doing business in our current economic system and culture. Walmart NEEDS a union. Even a shitty union would serve Walmart employees and the public interest better than the current anti-union practices Walmart has taken. Costco doesn't need a union in my opinion. When Sinegal steps down, then I'll look at it again.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[Bulldogcakes]

I can also tell you from personal experience, as well as well-known cases like the Kathy Lee Gifford case years ago, that Walmart actively seeks out that kind of shit.

http://i.timeinc.net/time/time100/images/main_walton.jpg
"Here's a new product from Guatemala that we saved 2 cents a bag on, since it was made by crippled orphans"

Please.

If you know anything about Sam Waltons biography, he lived in the same house he bought When he started Wal Mart, and was personally very frugal. My Dad once had a meeting with him (He worked for Merill Lynch) He shows up in an Old Chrysler, he's driving. He has a watch with a safety pin holding it together.
Was he frugal? Yes, by all accounts.
But to take that and say he "actively sought out" products made with child labor is a bit much. And I think says more about you than him.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL77/857148/1548180/76422236.jpg


Ow! Hey! Get that net offa me! Ouch! Help!! Somebody HELP!!!!

[gypsy]

If one store gets a union, then it will spread like a wild fire. So of course they are going to take steps to prevent that. Do you honestly think that it was losing money?

K-Mart, which is doing well now, lost ground to Sam when they tried to branch off into other ventures, such as Builder's Square, Borders Group, and Sports Authority. In doing so, they turned their back on the core business, and allowed Wal-Mart to swoop in.

K-Mart today is more of real estate holder than anything.

I've made a killing off of K-Marts stock. I bought at $15 and sold at $117

[Yerdaddy]

But to take that and say he "actively sought out" products made with child labor is a bit much. And I think says more about you than him.

What the hell are you talking about? Obviously I didn't say he was frugal therefore he actively sought blah blah. The man's been dead for how long? The fact that the old man was a skinflint is irrelevant.

I have a friend who was the director of a Burma human rights organization. He asked me for contact info for Costco's buyers because he found products that were being made in Burma and sold in Costco, Walmart and another store. A week later he told me, surprised, that Costco had called him back to say they had checked his facts, discontinued the items, and if he ever found any other cases like it to contact them, the head buyers, directly. The other store took nearly a year to finally discontinue the products. Walmart literally increased its orders.

That's one story of many. Walmart also has a long public record, (labor law violations, human rights violations, suing cities, etc.). Someone else can look it up because I've got other shit to do. Literally. What does that say about me?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

This message was edited by Yerdaddy on 2-12-05 @ 9:31 AM

[HBox]

Wal-Mart settles child labor cases. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6958916/)

WASHINGTON - Wal-Mart Stores Inc., the world's largest retailer, will pay $135,540 to settle federal charges that it broke child labor laws, the Labor Department said Saturday.

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The 24 violations, which occurred at stores in Arkansas, Connecticut and New Hampshire, had to do with teenage workers who used hazardous equipment such as a chain saw, paper bailers and fork lifts.

Wal-Mart denied the allegations but agreed to pay the penalty. A spokeswoman for the Bentonville, Ark., company said Wal-Mart was preparing a statement Saturday.

Way to turn the screws! It probably takes Wal-Mart a whole 10 seconds to make that amount of money. And then there's this:

Rep. George Miller, D-Calif., was critical of the provision that gives Wal-Mart 15 days notice before the Labor Department investigates wage and hour accusations. He said it could give Wal-Mart the chance to sweep violations under the rug.

Only 15 days notice! Boy, they'd better tighten up the ship if the inspectors can come in there that quick!

Let Us Trim Our Hair In Accordance with Socialist Lifestyle!

[booster11373]

The PBS series Frontline did an episode on wheither Wal-mart is good for america, and they show some pretty disturbing stuff about how walmart mainly treats its suppliers, and some of the tactics it used to get those low prices, my only question to you is do the people who work at walmart, can they afford to shop at walmart, Low prices are good for the consumer but bad for the manufacters who in order to compete are forced to close down plants in the US and move mostly to china, and those manufacters let go the very people who could afford to shop at walmart,

Ladies and Gentlemen My unlimited Love to Y'all

[booster11373]

Walmart also has been in support and has filed papers in support of chinese companys that have dumped products on the american market, Im not completly sure of the specifics but dumping is when a company sell products at below cost which is forbidden by the WTO, I never was any good in world economics so i could be off on that, its in the Fronline Episode

Ladies and Gentlemen My unlimited Love to Y'all

[gypsy]

Wal Mart's price setting demands did a number on Rubbermaid a few years back. They refused to meet Wal-mart's price, and as a result lost that account. Just shows you how big Wal-Mart is. Rubbermaid loses one account, and they almost went under.

This message was edited by gypsy on 2-12-05 @ 7:32 PM

[Bulldogcakes]

The fact that the old man was a skinflint is irrelevant.

I have a friend who was the director of a Burma human rights organization. He asked me for contact info for Costco's buyers because he found products that were being made in Burma and sold in Costco, Walmart and another store. A week later he told me, surprised, that Costco had called him back to say they had checked his facts, discontinued the items, and if he ever found any other cases like it to contact them, the head buyers, directly. The other store took nearly a year to finally discontinue the products. Walmart literally increased its orders.

First of all, I'd like to know what the product was. Without knowing that and other factors, I'll have to speculate as to why they did this. But, here goes.
They were probably thinking that since their competitors discontinued the item, it gave them an edge in the marketplace. Thats how alot of very successful business people think. Cold, rational focused on their business only. In other words, they dont give a shit about anything else but their business. And thats not a bad thing. That's their job. Leave it up to the politicians do decide what should be allowed into the country. If its legal, they sell it.

Your friend would do better to complain to his local/national politician. Thats their job to deal with these matters, and I'd have a bigger problem if my Senator ignored this than Wal-Mart.

Literally. What does that say about me?

You sound like you hate the guy, and you're starting from a position of such bias that it tends to discredit your remarks. If you weren't demonizing the guy in such a personal way, I'd be much more open to your point of view. I happen to share alot of your goals.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL77/857148/1548180/76422236.jpg


Ow! Hey! Get that net offa me! Ouch! Help!! Somebody HELP!!!!

[Bulldogcakes]

The PBS series Frontline did an episode on wheither Wal-mart is good for america, and they show some pretty disturbing stuff about how walmart mainly treats its suppliers, and some of the tactics it used to get those low prices, my only question to you is do the people who work at walmart, can they afford to shop at walmart, Low prices are good for the consumer but bad for the manufacters who in order to compete are forced to close down plants in the US and move mostly to china, and those manufacters let go the very people who could afford to shop at walmartl

Good point. This is the trade off you get for low inflation. Consumers benefit with low prices, but workers (who are also consumers) suffer with lower wages. Reverse this if you want, where workers get higher pay, and you'll have higher inflation. Alot of economics works this way. You tend to break even either way. Stocks go up, bonds go down and vice versa.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL77/857148/1548180/76422236.jpg


Ow! Hey! Get that net offa me! Ouch! Help!! Somebody HELP!!!!

[torker]

had to do with teenage workers who used hazardous equipment such as a chain saw, paper bailers and fork lifts.

neat-o
ah c'mon, let me drive the forklift http://www.service-enfance.ch/images/animated/forklift_place_lg_clr.gif

[center]<IMG SRC=http://home.comcast.net/~rmfallon/RFnettorker1313.jpg>[center]
[center]Take my soul to the lost and found [center]

[TheMojoPin]

You sound like you hate the guy, and you're starting from a position of such bias that it tends to discredit your remarks. If you weren't demonizing the guy in such a personal way, I'd be much more open to your point of view. I happen to share alot of your goals.

You're the one who brought up Sam.

Yerdaddy was clearly criticizing the company he started that exists today, over a decade after his death.

Sam is moot, and a straw man at best.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << I love my drug buddy... >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Yerdaddy]

What Mojo said, but without the lisp. I don't know much about the old man, and I don't care. In fact, most of the business practices of the company, that I've heard of, have come after his death. I don't know why you're assuming it's a personal thing, unless it's just a red herring. Now I'm starving!

<a href="http://img238.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img238&image=10022081gn.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img238.exs.cx/img238/5149/10022081gn.th.jpg" border="0" alt="Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us" /></a>

Better.


Thats how alot of very successful business people think. Cold, rational focused on their business only. In other words, they dont give a shit about anything else but their business. And thats not a bad thing.
I disagree then. Being a successful businessman makes you a successful businessman. But business is not done in a vacuum. Read the mission statements of most businesses today and you'll see that most businesses recognize their responsibility to do business in a way that is responsible to those affected by their businesses - and not just the stockholders and customers. The pure business-as-virtue model that you're espousing here is the 19th century model of child labor, unsafe working conditions, firing workers injured on the job, political corruption, nepotism, etc. A few companies aside, it doesn't exist anymore. Walmart is one of those companies, and the businesspeople I know are disgusted by Walmart's practices as well as I am.

As for what my friend should be doing - talking to polititians - it's what he does for a living. There are economic sanctions on Burma because the US government aknowledged, (partially because of the work of my friend), that companies cannot do business in Burma without the involvement of the military regime, and thus without strengthening that regime and denying the human rights of the Burmese people. But the Clinton administration, in imposing the sanctions on Burma, allowed a six month window to sign new contracts with the regime that would be honored. At that point the role of activists and those who cared about the Burmese people was to try to apply public and moral pressure on companies to discontinue doing business - adhere to the spirit of the sanctions as well as the letter. I already stated where Walmart's priorities lay in the issue. And for that, fuck them. It's an unprincipled, greedy company, and that's not a virtue by any standard.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[Bulldogcakes]

First of all, Bravo to your buddy. Sounds like he does some good work.
When you mentioned "actively seeks out" child labor products and Kathy Lee, I found that to be a bit much. What would probably be more accurate is they actively seek the best prices, and dont give a shit about anything else. Which was why I brought up the old man. Who by the way, was and is the company. Its his model they use.
Speaking of "models" Your 19th century comment doesn't wash. Walmarts 2004 annual sales were 284 billion. Costcos were 47.5. And note that one company is unionized, the other isn't. Walmarts model is suceeding like a motherfucker. Nothing outdated about it. I dont argue with success, I study it. There are certain business principles that worked then, now, and will work a hundred years from now. And its not about treating people like shit, its about being completely focused on your customers, who the last time I checked, are people too.
Meanwhile Apple, Ben+Jerry's and other "progressive" companies have consistently performed poorly. Business is Darwinian, and Walmart is the winner.

Does that mean they should buy child/slave labor products? That's up to Congress. If its legal, they sell it. And lower prices are more in the public interest than any union, for obvious reasons. Any union is only a small segment of the public. Again, I would have a bigger problem with the politicians allowing this. They set the rules.

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This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 2-13-05 @ 2:24 PM

[gypsy]

. Walmarts 2004 annual sales were 284 billion. Costcos were 47.5. And note that one company is unionized, the other isn't. Walmarts model is suceeding like a motherfucker.

Store count:

Wal-Mart: > 4,900

Costco: 417

Costco has less than 1/10th of the stores, and 1/6th total sales.

But you should look at profits anyway.

This message was edited by gypsy on 2-13-05 @ 4:13 PM

[Bulldogcakes]

. Walmarts 2004 annual sales were 284 billion. Costcos were 47.5. And note that one company is unionized, the other isn't. Walmarts model is suceeding like a motherfucker.

Store count:
Wal-Mart: > 4,900
Costco: 417
Costco has less than 1/10th of the stores, and 1/6th total sales.
But you should look at profits anyway.

I knew this post was coming. Do you think if the Costco model was so superior, they'd have more stores? You unintentionally bolstered my post. The fact they're smaller should tell you something.

Your point about profits is a good one. I'll use margins, not dollars because of the difference in size

Walmart 2004 3.5% 2003 3.3% 2002 3.1%

Costco 2004 1.8% 2003 1.7% 2002 1.8%

Source Hoovers.com

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[TheMojoPin]

Costco stores are hardly condusive to the "neighborhood invasion"-style of store insertion that Wal-Mart is able to pull off. Camparing the two chains directly is ridiculous and proves nothing either way. They're very different types of stores, and their sales models and strategies are very different.

Wouldn't it make more sense to compare Sam's Club to Costco?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << I love my drug buddy... >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[FUNKMAN]

it's like comparing apples and nectarines

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/SatCam/sig_funkmanstill.jpg">

[Bulldogcakes]

Costco stores are hardly condusive to the "neighborhood invasion"-style of store insertion that Wal-Mart is able to pull off. Camparing the two chains directly is ridiculous and proves nothing either way. They're very different types of stores, and their sales models and strategies are very different.

Then why didn't you have a problem with it when Doomstone started this comparison?
Answer-You thought it backed you up, now that the #'s are in, its "Lets not compare the two"
Please.

And it took YEARS to get Costcos in NYC, for those of us who remember, due to neighborhood opposition. And we still have no Walmarts.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL77/857148/1548180/76422236.jpg


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This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 2-14-05 @ 6:30 AM

[TheMojoPin]

I had no idea Doomstone started the comparison. I was just replying to the posts between you and Yerdaddy. I never thought from the beginning that comparing Costco and Wal-Mart would prove or disprove anything for either company, and anyone who did, quite frankly, is ridiculous, Doomstone included, if that's the case.

Nice spin, though. Not very subtle, but nice. You had no idea why I replied to the topic like I did (in general, and to nobody in particular), but you had no problem deciding that for me. Thumbs up!

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << I love my drug buddy... >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 2-14-05 @ 10:26 AM

[ag]

the hell woth Wal-mart. I mean dont get me wrong I love shopping there for groceries and what ever else I need but they're a bunch of assholes when it comes down to it. They pay shit and work you like a dog from what Ive herd. They are extreemly cheap when it comes to charity. A freind of mine who worked for them said they make A few hundred million a year, and yet when it comes to charities they give out only like a few thousand dollars. Second they have way to many stores, especially down here. Third, I cant wait to see the fall of them.

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<a href="http://idemco.net" title="For all your business needs"<http://idemco.net</a>

[gypsy]

What are thier operating margins?

[booster11373]

While Malmart may not be evil, there business practices while good for there share holders, are not nessecarly good for america on a whole.

Ladies and Gentlemen My unlimited Love to Y'all

[Doomstone]

I had no idea Doomstone started the comparison.

I didn't. I quoed an article comparing Walmart and Sam's club. The first sentence from said article:



BusinessWeek ran through the numbers from each company to compare Costco and Sam's Club, the Wal-Mart warehouse unit that competes directly with Costco.


Bulldogcakes is full of shit.

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M1 rules!
</center>

[JPMNICK]

What are thier operating margins?



like 7, 7 and a half

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Thanks to Reef for my sig. You rock

[HBox]

Wal-Mart uses new tactics to evade town laws. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7161611/)

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