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Yerdaddy
10-25-2004, 06:40 PM
<a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/pentagon/" target="_blank">With the United States Army deployed in a dozen hot spots around the world, on constant alert in Afghanistan, and taking casualties every day in Iraq, some current and former officers now say the army is on the verge of being "broken." They charge that the army is overstretched, demoralized, and may be unable to fight where and when the nation desires. This fall, FRONTLINE and the Washington Post join forces for an in-depth assessment of the state of the American army and the nation's military establishment. The program digs into the aggressive attempts to assert civilian control and remake the military by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and his allies.</a>

¯ Rumsfeld's War
Tuesday, October 26, at 9pm, 90 minutes
(check for local times)

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A.J.
10-26-2004, 03:43 AM
Transforming the military isn't necessarily a bad thing. The effort was already underway pre-9/11 to revamp the military as well as future weapon systems to meet the needs of a post-Cold War world.

For example, the Army cancelled its Comanche helicopter and Crusdaer programs. But the Navy initiated the LCS (Littoral Combat Ship) program: a smaller, faster, shallow-water ship that defends the fleet against asymmetric threats like small boats. This was a result of the USS COLE incident.

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Yerdaddy
10-26-2004, 09:53 AM
But the Navy initiated the LCS (Littoral Combat Ship) program: a smaller, faster, shallow-water ship that defends the fleet against asymmetric threats like small boats.

Ahh! What the hell do you know!

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A.J.
10-26-2004, 10:07 AM
Not a damn thing!

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whoopsy
10-26-2004, 06:49 PM
thanks for the heads up, Yerdaddy, it was a pretty powerful piece. To be honest, shit like this used to make me angry, now it just scares and saddens me.

what i found most disturbing were the Camp David meeting right after 9/11 that had a moderate Powell arguing against Wolfowitz' calls for an immediate Iraq invasion (so much so that there had to be a vote on which to invade first, Afghanistan or Iraq). The second most disturbing was the blatant disregard of military opinion on how to best conquer and keep the peace in Iraq by a completely fucking hard-headed civilian in Rumsfeld. I've always had mad respect for Powell, more now having watched this.








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Yerdaddy
10-26-2004, 06:53 PM
Shhhh. Don't spoil the ending for me. It's only 8:53 here in Denver.

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Yerdaddy
10-26-2004, 08:36 PM
what i found most disturbing were the Camp David meeting right after 9/11 that had a moderate Powell arguing against Wolfowitz' calls for an immediate Iraq invasion (so much so that there had to be a vote on which to invade first, Afghanistan or Iraq). The second most disturbing was the blatant disregard of military opinion on how to best conquer and keep the peace in Iraq by a completely fucking hard-headed civilian in Rumsfeld.

I'd reverse the two, but otherwise I agree completely. These are complete ideologues who have utter contempt for any conflicting opinion, even from the top uniformed military leaders we have, (had), is beyond comprehension to me. The fact that the failures of this war has not cost anyone their job, (Rumsfeld), and that the public is almost completely silent on the subject, scares the shit out of me. I fear for my country.

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FUNKMAN
10-26-2004, 08:42 PM
The fact that the failures of this war has not cost anyone their job, (Rumsfeld), and that the public is almost completely silent on the subject, scares the shit out of me. I fear for my country.


but you have to agree that invading Iraq, spending 200 billion, losing an additional 1,000 lives, 6,000 injured, pales in comparison to Clinton invading Monica's mouth...

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Reephdweller
10-27-2004, 04:37 AM
Shhhh. Don't spoil the ending for me. It's only 8:53 here in Denver.


I hate to give it away, but it ended up that we went to war in Iraq.
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[spoiler alert]
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To date, no weapons of mass destruction were found.
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Oddly enough these "wmd's" are supposedly not the same thing as the "explosives" which are missing.


:p

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TheMojoPin
10-27-2004, 07:39 AM
Whoa, whoa, whoa...don't tell me people are now pointing to EXPLOSIVES as the reason we went to war with Iraq?

Jesus, that's even MORE hypocritical than "we did it to liberate the suffering Iraqi people."

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Reephdweller
10-27-2004, 09:06 AM
Whoa, whoa, whoa...don't tell me people are now pointing to EXPLOSIVES as the reason we went to war with Iraq?

Jesus, that's even MORE hypocritical than "we did it to liberate the suffering Iraqi people."



As much as I asked that in jest, I would like to know what the difference is between these explosives and wmds? I'm not saying this to suggest that this was the reason to go to war, though I would like to know the difference.

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HBox
10-27-2004, 09:19 AM
Because these explosives are relatively easily obtainable for terrorists. But that doesn't give us a free pass for leaving hundreds of tons of the stuff lying unprotected.

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TheMojoPin
10-27-2004, 09:26 AM
As much as I asked that in jest, I would like to know what the difference is between these explosives and wmds? I'm not saying this to suggest that this was the reason to go to war, though I would like to know the difference.

WMD's are called "weapons of MASS destruction" in the first place because they are far more likely to cause more death/destruction/damage/chaos/casualities than so-called "conventional" weapons, like the above-mentioned explosives.

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Furtherman
10-27-2004, 10:03 AM
Unless you nuke them in a microwave. If you do, you'd better be waaaaaaaaay out of the kitchen when that bell rings!

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Reephdweller
10-27-2004, 10:20 AM
WMD's are called "weapons of MASS destruction" in the first place because they are far more likely to cause more death/destruction/damage/chaos/casualities than so-called "conventional" weapons, like the above-mentioned explosives.


That's what I wanted to know.

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Yerdaddy
10-27-2004, 10:31 AM
WMD's are called "weapons of MASS destruction" in the first place because they are far more likely to cause more death/destruction/damage/chaos/casualities than so-called "conventional" weapons, like the above-mentioned explosives.

The point of this is not that it is a WMD or a rationale for the war. It's that this is a huge stockpile of extremely powerful conventional explosives that the IAEA, (and the US intelligence and military planners), knew about, but that the administration had no plan to secure despite the specific warnings from the IAEA. So what this represents is a clear example of the overall ridiculous failure of the administration's planning of this war. In their, (Rumsfeld's) determination to have a small force rush in to take out Saddam's government and install a proxy one, (Ahmed Chalabi and his INC), that would allow us to start withdrawing US forces quickly, under the naive and simplistic assumptions that most of the government would remain in place to take our orders, and that the public would welcome us with flowers and kisses, the administration's planners simply ignored the warnings from the the more realistic and experienced military commanders, (which it simply sidelined or fired), that we would need "boots on the ground" to actually secure the country and protect the soldiers in the event that things didn't go according to the simple, optimistic theories of the civilian neocons running the Pentagon.

The significance of the particular types of explosives involved here, and the reason the IAEA went to such measures to warn us about them both before the war and once it was reported they were missing is that, unlike WMD which would be particularly valuable in creating public fear regardless of the actual physical impact of a terrorist attack, (see the 1995 Sarin attack on the Tokyo subway which killed 12 people), this stuff would be particularly usefull for insurgent terrorist attacks because they are more predictably destructive when used against US military targets in a war-zone.

There is actually a hatred of the term "weapons of mass destruction" among experts. [ See: <a href="http://www.armscontrol.org/interviews/20040619_Blix.asp" target="_blank">An Interview with Hans Blix</a> - near the bottom. ] It is a gross oversimplification to put in the same category nuclear weapons and many of the bio/chem weapons that are actually not very good at killing people and destroying things. They feel the term actually increases the psychological terror value of the weapons rather than promoting an understanding of which ones are truly dangerous and under what circumstances.

[quote]
<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=13&u=/ap/20041025/ap_on_re_mi_ea/nuclear_agency_iraq_glance_2" target="_blank">A Look at Explosives Missing in Iraq</a>

Mon Oct 25, 8:53 AM ET Middle East - AP

By The Associated Press

A glance at the destructive power of the nearly 380 tons of conventional explosives the International Atomic Energy Agency says have gone missing from a former military installation in Iraq (news - web sites):
___

HMX: High melting explosives, as they are scientifically known, are among the most powerful in use by the world's militaries today. HMX, also known as octogen, is made from hexamine, ammonium nitrate, nitric acid and acetic acid. Because it detonates at high temperatures, it is used in various kinds of explosives, rocket fuels and burster chargers.
___

RDX: Also referred to as cyclonite or hexogen, RDX is a white crystalline solid usually used in mixtures with other explosives, oils or waxes. Rarely used alone, it has a high degree of stability in storage and is considered the most powerful of the high explosives used by militaries.
___

PLASTIC EXPLOSIVES: Experts say both HMX and RDX are key ingredients in plastic explosives such as Semtex and C-4, puttylike military substances that easily can be shaped. Libyan terrorists used just 1 pound of Semtex in 1988 to down Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, killing 27

Yerdaddy
10-27-2004, 01:18 PM
[edit]: posted in the wrong thread like a retart

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This message was edited by Yerdaddy on 10-27-04 @ 5:33 PM

TheGameHHH
10-27-2004, 02:41 PM
This morning my Torts professor came in and went on for about 5 minutes about how if we watch one thing before the election, this should be it. In all honesty he really sparked my interest in it, so for thos of you who saw this piece what are your reactions? Is it worth my time?

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Yerdaddy
10-27-2004, 05:23 PM
It's definitely worth your time. The current civilian leadership of the Pentagon has taken taken tighter control over the military and foreign policy than any administration in years. I think what this documentary provides is a look at who they are and how they operate - what's the role of the uniformed military in the decision-making process - whether to go to war, where to go to war, and how to go to war. I'd say this is the most important subject for the public to consider in this election. But then, I would say that, wouldn't I?

See it. What's an hour and a half?

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TheMojoPin
10-27-2004, 06:11 PM
IMHO, there's not a better TV news program on today than "Frontline." And it's been around, what, 10 years? 15?

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FUNKMAN
10-27-2004, 06:21 PM
[edit]: posted in the wrong thread like a retart


that was a PMD - post of mass deception

:)

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