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Bestinshow
10-02-2004, 03:31 PM
http://start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=0&aid=1002040549_breakingnews_story

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Se7en
10-02-2004, 04:21 PM
At least 50 Palestinians and five Israelis have been killed during the offensive, launched after a Hamas rocket killed two Israeli preschoolers in a town near Gaza on Wednesday.

The only good Hamas is a dead Hamas.

Memo to Europe: though bloody, this is a better way to fight terrorism than, say, forking over a million bucks to the terrorists.

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TheMojoPin
10-02-2004, 08:12 PM
(An Israeli offensive) launched after a Hamas rocket killed two Israeli preschoolers

At least 50 Palestinians and five Israelis have been killed during the offensive

Er...way to go?

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Bestinshow
10-03-2004, 02:40 PM
And what do you think should be done after a rocket is lauched that kills two innocent kids, especially since this is admitedly their plan for the future?

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Yerdaddy
10-03-2004, 05:26 PM
What should be the standard of failure for a policy of mutual retaliation?

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NewYorkDragons80
10-03-2004, 05:43 PM
At least 50 Palestinians and five Israelis have been killed during the offensive

Er...way to go?
I think they mean Israeli combatants.

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This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 10-3-04 @ 9:43 PM

ADF
10-03-2004, 05:45 PM
Oh, combatants.. then it's ok.

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furie
10-03-2004, 06:33 PM
what's the answer, surrender? allow yourself to be slaughtered?


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TheMojoPin
10-03-2004, 06:36 PM
And what do you think should be done after a rocket is lauched that kills two innocent kids, especially since this is admitedly their plan for the future?

How am I supposed to know? Clearly, nobody else on the planet does, either. I'm not up on my "dead children = number of dead 'others'" forumla, and, quite frankly, I don't care to be. There's some kind of plan or response criteria here? Because if there is, inform all of those idiots of it, because neither side seems to have any clue. If all these dead people somehow equaled or righted the two dead kids, hey, whoopee, all is right with the world. If not, what the fuck is anyone gonna do about it? Nothing. It's just gonna go on and on and on and on...

I mean, it's apparently really hard for people to grasp this here, but I have no will or desire to "pick sides" in this conflict as long as it continues in this stalemate. I'm not looking at who dies or how many or how or whatever...I just see more and more dead people...dead because of a lot of other stupid people...period. This situation is fucked up from about a thousand different angles, with about a thousand different "bad guys," and anyone who thinks they can just cut it up black and white and feel happy with that is deluding themselves.

This whole situation can be summed up by one general mentality for the forseeable future, at least from my standpoint...

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 10-3-04 @ 10:41 PM

FUNKMAN
10-03-2004, 07:10 PM
someone should go to the palestinian neighborhoods and build baseball fields... open up organized youth programs so the kids have something to do besides throwing rocks and spitting at tanks... maybe some YMCA's too

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Yerdaddy
10-03-2004, 07:43 PM
what's the answer, surrender? allow yourself to be slaughtered?

Which side do you mean?

Seriously, without getting into a battle of cliches and without rehashing the same statistics and arguments, now I'm just wondering if the cheerleaders of endless retaliation see an endpoint to this strategy? The Israelis already have kept a consistant record of killing three times the Palestinians as vise-versa, and what has it gotten them? Thus the question: at what point do you consider another strategy?

Five years ago there were about 10 Israelis killed by Palestinians and less than 30 Palestinians killed by Israelis. Would it be anit-Israeli to think about what was different between the periods of mutual violence and come up with solutions that would try to recreate those conditions?

Does anyone seriously expect the Palestinians to stop killing Israelis when all they have to look forward to is continued Israeli military control of the Occupied Territories, continued expansion of settlements on Palestinian lands, and no redress for the 750,000 Palestinians chased off Israeli lands in 1948 or for a return of territories seized in 1967? What reason do the Palestinians have to stop? And, before they're described as unalterably committed to the destruction of Israel, why five years ago was the violence a tiny fraction of what it is now?

I don't expect any serious answers or discussion of course, but maybe someday people will start thinking about a solution to the problem instead of rooting for a side like it was a fucking football game.

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Fuck it from behind.

Bestinshow
10-04-2004, 08:01 AM
Are you people for real? Mutual retaliation? When is force justified? I guess only when the UN and the French say its okay. Where are these people supposed to go? the whole fucking world turned their back during the evian conference during world war2 and told them to go fuck themselves while they were being tortured and slaughtered in concentration camps. So instead of taking them in, as part of the treaties of world war 2, they were given their own country, approved by the fucking UN. And yes, the Palestinians wont rest until they are annihilated. Maybe you arent reading the right papers as Sharon is trying to give back the settlements, except these poor people that have no choice(as you describe the Palestinians) are doing this to anger the conservatives, to make them vote down Sharons plan.

And why is it worse now? Why did 9/11 happen now? Ask them. Oh yeah, its our fault. We made them do it with our foreign policy.

And its funny how with all the Palestinians living and working in Israel, you are worried about the Palestinians moved in 1948, but you don't like Israeli's living in Palestine, because they are settlers. I have news for you, many of the Israelis descend from families that have also been living in the middle east for centuries.

Football game? For who?

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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 10-4-04 @ 12:03 PM

Bestinshow
10-04-2004, 08:06 AM
Btw, id love to see where else in the world people try to justify targeting civilians in reponse to trying to reclaim land. If any other country in the world had buses and catering halls and shopping plazas as intended targets, their would be worldwide boycotts and sanctions. I havent seen any sanctions here yet.

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TheMojoPin
10-04-2004, 08:17 AM
Btw, id love to see where else in the world people try to justify targeting civilians in reponse to trying to reclaim land.

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Top of the mornin' to ye.

Bestinshow, your indignation is pretty hollow at this point. Neither Yerdaddy or myself were overtly supporting either side. Our overall points were that this conflict has gotten so muddled by BOTH sides killing the shit out of each other that it's pretty impossible to just pick one side to "root" for...like a football game. It's a CYCLE that's not working. That involves many different people making many different mistakes. Is there an answer contained in the current cycle of action and reaction? If there is, I'm blind to seeing it. So if enough people are comfortable with this going on, and apparently they are, what's going to change in the forseeable future? Nothing.

And why is it worse now? Why did 9/11 happen now? Ask them. Oh yeah, its our fault. We made them do it with our foreign policy.

Man, how do you spin that fast without throwing up?

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 10-4-04 @ 12:28 PM

Bestinshow
10-04-2004, 08:43 AM
obviously there are mistakes made, and obviously not everyone in Israel is bent on peace and yes some still support annexing additional land, but the majority of the country just wants to be left alone. Sharon is going up against many in his own government in attempting to dismantle settlements. This will never fly as long as hamas is trying to get rockets that go further so they can keep hitting cities.

Bottom line is this, hamas is a terrorist group thats complete stategy is targeting civilians as their form of offensive. I thought we were supposed to be wiping out terrorists worldwide. You cant use diplomacy to negotiate withpeople that strap bombs to themselves, end of story. I don't understand how you equate this with picking sides.

And as far as spin, what are you talking about? The islamist extremist movement as a whole has gotten more violent everywhere. The increased violence in Israel and 9/11 are not a coincedence. While not the same people, the movement itself is kicked into high gear.

And btw, saying they have no choice or they have nothing else to look forward to is to me, justification. Unless it wasnt intended that way and I strike my remark from the record.

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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 10-4-04 @ 12:47 PM

TheMojoPin
10-04-2004, 08:56 AM
Bottom line is this, hamas is a terrorist group thats complete stategy is targeting civilians as their form of offensive. I thought we were supposed to be wiping out terrorists worldwide. You cant use diplomacy to negotiate withpeople that strap bombs to themselves, end of story. I don't understand how you equate this with picking sides.

Because zero is changing. I'm not saying Hamas is right, but what good can come of this continual cycle? Somebody has to do something differently. And if all sides are just going to continually say, "well, I'm NOT changing first," nothing is going to change. And if they can live, and die, with that, they've apparently all made their decision.

And I'm sorry, tossing 9/11 and "blaming ourselves for it" into this came so far out of left field, the ball crossed the internaitonal dateline twice. If we're focusing on Israel and Palestine, 9/11 ultimately has zero to do with it. If the issue is us just combating terrorism in general, hey, I already threw out Ireland when you asked about other groups trageting civilians, and we haven't don't squat about that. Or about the Chechnyans in Russia. It's either a widely spread umbrella, or it isn't.

Nobody isn't condeming Hamas. But you eliminate Hamas, the overall issue still remains, full-blown. It's not that cut and dry.

Bottom line, has (two) eye(s) for an eye worked so far? Is it an acceptable state to live in for the forseeable future?

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Bestinshow
10-04-2004, 09:05 AM
last I checked , the IRA werent Islamist extremists, talking about coming out of left field. And I didnt say we should do something, I said Isreal should do something, as should Russia, and anywhere else this happens, with the support of the whole world. No there is no easy answer, nobody said there was. Eye for an eye? That is what you called hunting down terrorists?

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Bestinshow
10-04-2004, 09:08 AM
And btw, nothing is changing because the terrorists dont want it to change. They use the same formula everywhere. Violence to create anarchy, to prevent any peaceful solutions. And this is how it will stay until all power is muted from them.

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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 10-4-04 @ 1:09 PM

TheMojoPin
10-04-2004, 10:40 AM
But you cannot eradicate terrorism. That's reality. It's not going to happen. So if everyone is hunky-dory with the current "hunting down terrorism" scenario between Israle and Palestine, don't expect to change anytime soon. They're in a stalemate. Neither side is "winning" anything. It's tit for tat, on and on and on again. What is being accomplished? You think when Israel kills a terrorist, or some Palestinians, that the terrorists somehow "lose" something? That something has been won? Of course not. It's Israel's right to defend itself, and it should...but to think they're somehow gaining ground is ludicrous. It's a stalemate.

last I checked , the IRA werent Islamist extremists, talking about coming out of left field.

YOU said...

Btw, id love to see where else in the world people try to justify targeting civilians in reponse to trying to reclaim land.

So I answered.

Left field my ass.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 10-4-04 @ 2:43 PM

Bestinshow
10-04-2004, 11:40 AM
It's Israel's right to defend itself, and it should


Thats basically all im saying. Right now that is all anyone could do. Which is better than doing nothing and committing suicide. This is the world we live in.

And I don't see anyone justifying terrorism committed by the Ira.

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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 10-4-04 @ 3:43 PM

Tall_James
10-04-2004, 11:45 AM
someone should go to the palestinian neighborhoods and build baseball fields... open up organized youth programs so the kids have something to do besides throwing rocks and spitting at tanks... maybe some YMCA's too

Midnight basketball programs?

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TheMojoPin
10-04-2004, 12:04 PM
It's Israel's right to defend itself, and it should


Thats basically all im saying. Right now that is all anyone could do. Which is better than doing nothing and committing suicide. This is the world we live in.

But one has to eventually wonder, does anyone actually want the situation to change, or things just to stay the same?

Yes, Israel has attempted far more attempts at peaceful solutions than Palestine. None of them have worked in the long run. Is that any reason to give up on that kind of thinking? Or should it be motivation to try something else, as opposed to just slight modifcations to the same plans? One side is going to have to suck it up and make a number of "first" steps over and over and over and over again until something finally sticks. Sitting back and looking at both sides, it almost HAS to be the Israelis. Not because they're "wrong," but because they ultimately have more control over the situation. Terrorism "floats." You could get a government that's entirely anti-terror in Palestine and groups like Hamas would still exist and strike as long as the stalemate continues as it does. Israel has direct control over who's engagin in their attacks. It's not "picking on Israel." Logic dictates they have more options.

And it won't be quick. It won't be easy. But ultimately, there HAS to be something better than what's going on. Does Israel ALWAYS want to be on the defensive? If the answer is "no," something needs to be done differently...and since you can't force terrorism to work for you, you've got to do it yourself. What other option is there? It's not "blame"...it's being productively pro-active!

And I don't see anyone justifying terrorism committed by the Ira.

Well, the Irish seem to be doing a good job of it. Irish leaders "cracking down" on Irish terrorism rings about as true as Palestinians saying they'll "control" Hamas. They CAN'T control all of it, and a good number of them don't WANT to. And the global perception towards the IRA and their ilk, especially in North America, constitutes a shrug when compared to our reaction to Palestinian extremist groups. Stack the two governments up against each other...do you really think both have gotten equal criticism and attempts to stop their extremist ways from countries around the world? Shit, some the Irish groups happily worked with the Germans in BOTH World Wars, and you STILL get people all over this country who don't think they're "all that bad."

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Bestinshow
10-04-2004, 05:19 PM
I think the IRA is dirt but as far as I know, they dont operate at the magnitude that the Palestinians terrorists do. If they committed near the amount of attrocities, I believe they would get more bad press. But I don't pretend to know much about them and I dont want to get into a Palestinian terrorist vs. IRA debate.

And as far as sucking it up, come on, be real. No one is going to suck it up and get blown up. And Israel is taking the first initiative. The only reason the Palestinian prime minister has any juice is because everyone knows the Israeli's would love a peace accord.

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TheMojoPin
10-04-2004, 06:44 PM
I think the IRA is dirt but as far as I know, they dont operate at the magnitude that the Palestinians terrorists do. If they committed near the amount of attrocities, I believe they would get more bad press. But I don't pretend to know much about them and I dont want to get into a Palestinian terrorist vs. IRA debate.

Well, then I'll just clarify...are they physically and statistically comparable NOW? But the activites of Irish terrorist groups throughout most of the 20th century easily puts Hamas to shame. Thousands of people have been killed by these groups. People recoil in horror today when Hamas somehow pulls off two or three attacks in one day. Well, the "classic" Irish terrorists could pull off a dozen bombings in a day...one day, 22, across Northern Ireland and the UK.

Irish terrorists are the model for most "modern" terrorists. Michael Collins specifically and his tactics are what guided the Middle Eastern extremist groups that formed in the 60's and 70's and continue today (And the communist guerilla fighters in Asia).

Groups like Hamas have a long way to go until they're as scumfuckingly awful as organizations like the IRA.

And as far as sucking it up, come on, be real. No one is going to suck it up and get blown up.

I give the fuck up. Nowhere did I even imply they're supposed to do NOTHING and just let people attack them. I said try something ELSE, but apparently the only options are "kill" or "do nothing." Stupid me.

And Israel is taking the first initiative.

I didn't say they weren't. In fact, I went out of my to state they've done much more than Palestine in attempting peaceful resolutions in this conflict. My ACTUAL point was that Israel, for a variety of reasons, has the clear upper hand in this conflict. They have the most control and political resources...things the Palestinian government can't even hope to have. As such, Israle has more of an ability to shape and broker a lasting peace deal. Thusly, the burden and even obligation falls to Israel.

Is that fair? Of course not. Is that reality? Unfortunately, yes. They need to take more steps, they need to be the more pro-active guiding force...that's just how it is. Palestinian authority is a joke. They can't be expected to keep even footing because they have little to no footing in their own country. Israel needs to work AROUND them and influence the people in a positive manner. I don't know how, but that's the key. Convince the people to turn AWAY from terrorism and that's how it will die. Continue trying to "kill" it with an eye for an eye mentality with NO other LARGE SCALE option, and you make it grow.

The worst thing about the modern "war on terror" is it seems to have much of the world convinced that terrorism is something you can shoot at and it will die. It's not. It's something that can only be stopped BEFORE it's formed...you take away the reason, you take away the terrorism.

Now, I'm not going to be arrogant enough to sit here and assume I know what Israel needs to do, or should do or even can do. All I know is that the current series of events has all the earmarkings of a stalemate, and that's it. Nobody gets the upperhand, and people only live in fear and suffer and die. And that's the path for the future. If that's acceptable to the powers that be, that's their decision. There just has to be other options.

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NewYorkDragons80
10-04-2004, 08:22 PM
Top of the mornin' to ye.
In defense of the IRA (and believe me, as much as I sympathize with their bigger goals, I think the Irish have fucked up their own foreign policy up, down, and sideways in the past 60 or so years), they rarely target civilians and cut the shit after 9/11.

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This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 10-5-04 @ 12:23 AM

TheMojoPin
10-04-2004, 08:51 PM
In defense of the IRA (and believe me, as much as I sympathize with their bigger goals, I think the Irish have fucked up their own foreign policy up, down, and sideways in the past 60 or so years), they rarely target civilians and cut the shit after 9/11.

AFTER 9/11. Which still left almost a century of "shenanigans" before it. And while you're right about the IRA attempting usually to avoid civilians, there are and have been dozens of splinter groups or indepedent "armies" that have no such qualms, and fully subscribe to the "the only good Brit is a dead Brit" mentality. It's a common misconception that the IRA = most, if not all, Irish-related terrorism in the UK. They've just been the biggest "army," the most long-lasting, and the most legitimate.

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high fly
10-06-2004, 11:25 PM
Top of the mornin' to ye.
In defense of the IRA (and believe me, as much as I sympathize with their bigger goals, I think the Irish have fucked up their own foreign policy up, down, and sideways in the past 60 or so years), they rarely target civilians and cut the shit after 9/11.


They had cut the shit before then, when Superstar Bill Clinton sent some cats over there to negotiate a cease fire.




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