a Roe v. Wade overturn? [Archive] - RonFez.net Messageboard

Yerdaddy

09-28-2004, 06:02 AM

The president under whom that happens would sink not only his career, but probably lose his party a ton of seats in the Senate.

They said that about the impeachment of Clinton for lying about a blowjob. They said it was lowering the bar for impeachment to define perjury about a personal matter as "high crimes and misdemeaners" and a majority of the public was opposed to it and the republicans in Congress would pay at the polls. Oops.

Look at this war. Who would have thought going into this that the president would be wrong about so much - WMD, ties to al-Qaeda, no bin Laden, terrorism up, botched invasion, grim prospects for democracy - and yet he's in good shape to win reelection.

We are an easily manipulated people. We have chosen teams and will remain loyal to those teams regardless of what they do. Therefore there is very little that I will agree is impossible in this country. I would consider it a very real possibility that in four years abortions will be relegated to the back alleys and nobody will do shit about it at the polls until its too late.

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NewYorkDragons80

09-28-2004, 06:24 AM

And then some states could make it nearly impossible, if not illegal to get abortions. Even if they can't outlaw them, a state like, oh, I dont, know, Texas can make it so tough to get one in your state that people have taken the case all the way to the Supre...
So you're problem is that duly elected representatives of the people will make decisions you disagree with?

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silera

09-28-2004, 06:45 AM

So you're problem is that duly elected representatives of the people will make decisions you disagree with?

Government should not be used as a tool to impose majority morality.

Church and state. Seperate.

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Mike Teacher

09-28-2004, 06:49 AM

So you're problem is that duly elected representatives of the people will make decisions you disagree with?

Nope. Just some conjecture on what might happen.

[I'll even posit further...]

This question is about a neutral as I can make it. My stance on abortion is too weird and long to go into, but here's the questions for the debate.

Q: Let's say Roe V. Wade was overturned and abortions were made illegal. What do you think would happen? What would change? What would stay the same?

Wow the debates I've started with THAT with some groups.

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This message was edited by Mike Teacher on 9-28-04 @ 10:59 AM

jeffdwright2001

09-28-2004, 07:13 AM

Government should not be used as a tool to impose majority morality.

In theory it's a nice thought. But how do you attain it?

Laws are passed by majority vote, and every law is initiated by a person (or group of people). That person's morals (good or bad) at the very least influence the basis of the law.

If the majority of citizens believed that there is nothing morally wrong with abortion (or drug use, or drinking, or driving 55 mph) and they pass laws making it legal and permitted in every state, then hasn't a law been passed that imposes the moral beliefs of the majority?

The biggest problem (and the one most difficult to solve) has been the same one that's been around since the Confederation. Who should have the most power, the State or the Federal Government?

The Roe v. Wade overturn if it occurs will have nothing to do with whether or not the new Justice believes abortion should be legal. It will hinge upon whether or not they have a strict or loose interpretation of the Constitution.

And even that can change over time. Jefferson was a firm believer that what powers not specifically given to the Federal Government were automatically given to the States. Similarly, he believed that each branch of the Government (including the Presidency) had very limited powers. This changed however, when he had the opportunity to make the Louisianna Purchase from Napoleon. While the Constitution did not give the President permission to purchase land on behalf of the United States, (as Secretary of State Monroe pointed out) it did give the President permission to approve Treaties. Consequently, the purchase was part of a Treaty rather than an outright purchase agreement.

There is more change at stake than Roe v. Wade in the upcoming years. The way in which the Country and it's comprising States interact within the borders and more importantly outside the National borders could shake up Health Care, Foreign Policy, and our relative Economic status.

I'd love for one of the debate questions to be, which of the Nation's past Supreme Court Justices would you like to see back on the bench, and who out of the current crop of possible replacements would you consider placing on the bench?

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This message was edited by jeffdwright2001 on 9-28-04 @ 11:13 AM

silera

09-28-2004, 07:35 AM

Laws are passed by majority vote, and every law is initiated by a person (or group of people). That person's morals (good or bad) at the very least influence the basis of the law.

There is a code of life, that I think transcends all religions and peoples. I don't disagree with laws that are for the greater good. I disagree with selective morality used by the pro lifers to impose their religion/morality on those that do not agree with them.

The same conservative/right wing/christians that wish to ban abortions, are the ones that have no problems whatsoever with the death penalty, excluding in general I'd say the catholic church which repudiates both.

Abortion is a personal decision best left up to the parties that will directly have to deal with its repercussions and sadly, it is being manipulated by politics.

As for the rest of your statement, I guess the question is whether state's powers should be superceded by the power of the government. I'd say yes. The constitution is the law of the land, and I don't think state laws can be valid if they conflict with our constitution.

On the other hand, if this is an issue about state powers vs government powers, and the government in essence usurping government powers on this issue. I'd venture to say that a majority of those that would like to see Roe v Wade overturned would have no problem backing a constitutional amendment to define marriage as that between a man and woman.

That is just supposition though.

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HBox

09-28-2004, 08:02 AM

TheMojoPin

09-28-2004, 08:10 AM

NewYorkDragons80

09-28-2004, 08:11 AM

Church and state. Seperate.
What does Church and state have to do with the assertion that developing human beings are human lives which the government is obligated to protect?

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NewYorkDragons80

09-28-2004, 08:13 AM

If the issue is handed to state legislatures I am absolutely sure that some state, probably in the South, full of a bunch of extremists, will outlaw it in ALL cases, including to save the mother's life. That I have real problem with, even as a pro-life person.
Hmmm... vaild, but even the worst lawyer could argue that the abortion was carried out in self-defense.

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angrymissy

09-28-2004, 08:27 AM

What does Church and state have to do with the assertion that developing human beings are human lives which the government is obligated to protect?

Because certain religions dictate that life begins at conception.

Science does not consider it a life at 6 weeks post conception. Religion does.

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This message was edited by angrymissy on 9-28-04 @ 12:29 PM

silera

09-28-2004, 08:38 AM

What does Church and state have to do with the assertion that developing human beings are human lives which the government is obligated to protect?

That's a matter of opinion. I'm convinced that the abortion issue is just used as a tool to further impose religious morality on women.

It's a conflicting message when efforts to make birth control and sex education more accesible are quashed, most health insurance companies do not cover birth control as prescription medication, and the government won't allow birth control to be sold without a prescription (overdosing a risk?), among a slew of other things.

Yet, when a women considers an abortion, the idea is "it's her fault" and she should pay. In the end, the unwanted children pay. It's a case of you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

Again, the conflicting morality also doesn't apply to the death penalty - case in point G.W.

I don't think at all it's about life to anyone involved, because if it was, we'd start caring more about women.

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NewYorkDragons80

09-28-2004, 09:29 AM

Again, the conflicting morality also doesn't apply to the death penalty - case in point G.W.
Well, I am against the death penalty. Speaking of which, since the Church is against the death penalty, then anyone who agrees with that viewpoint must have arrived at that conclusion the same way that the Church did and the anti-death penalty crowd is therefore discredited in your viewpoint.

I don't think at all it's about life to anyone involved, because if it was, we'd start caring more about women.
Which basically sums up the militant abortionist opinion. If one doesn't see it your way, one must be grouped with the most extreme elements of the opposing viewpoint. Check this out (www.l4l.org). And Catholic charities do care about women. Ever heard of Rosalie Hall? Pregnancy Care Center? Our Lady of Comfort? Those are just the ones I've heard of in NYC.

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Recyclerz

09-28-2004, 09:43 AM

I can see this thread splitting into two tracks so let me jump on both.

1. Will Roe be overturned? Radio (message board) Psychic- In a second Bush term - Yes. The next president will get to appoint at least 3 justices (replacing Stevens, Rehnquist, O'Connor). Scalia and Thomas will definitely vote to overturn, Kennedy maybe. Add three to that and you've got 5 or 6 votes to overturn. At least 30 states will oulaw abortion in all cases within 6 months of such a decision.

2. Should the government outlaw (or have the right to outlaw) abortion?

Too long an answer for my lunchbreak but, Cliffs Notes version, I'll say no. However, I will take the time to blame my fellow liberals for relying on the courts to rule their way and for not building a wider political coalition to vote for politicians that will protect a women's right to make decisions about her own body, as currently held in federal law.

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silera

09-28-2004, 09:52 AM

The same conservative/right wing/christians that wish to ban abortions, are the ones that have no problems whatsoever with the death penalty, excluding in general I'd say the catholic church which repudiates both. That's what I said about the Death Penalty in relation to abortion as an example only- not a fact.

anyone who agrees with that viewpoint must have arrived at that conclusion the same way that the Church did and the anti-death penalty crowd is therefore discredited in your viewpoint.

I think you're twisting logic around here.

If one doesn't see it your way, one must be grouped with the most extreme elements of the opposing viewpoint.

I don't group anyone with any viewpoint. You don't have to see it my way at all. You can choose for yourself, and your wife, sister, mother, daughter, whomever you have personal influence over, what they can do with their bodies and lives.

I have a right to my opinion regarding abortion, and you have your right to yours. However, your opinion shouldn't infringe upon my personal medical decisions, it's that simple.

Which basically sums up the militant abortionist opinion.

I'm not a militant abortionist. I agree that Catholic Charities and many other philanthropies help women through rough times. My sister was lucky enough to get a crib, carriage, diapers and tons of assistance from the Sisters of Charity on 14th Street when she was 17 and pregant.

I just think it's sad when an issue is abused in a way to impose other's idea of what's acceptable at societies expense.

EDIT :
This is my position on abortion.

Abortion is a personal decision best left up to the parties that will directly have to deal with its repercussions and sadly, it is being manipulated by politics.

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This message was edited by silera on 9-28-04 @ 1:58 PM

NewYorkDragons80

09-28-2004, 12:46 PM

Fair enough, but realize that my opinion isn't based in religious zealoutry. I personally am religious, but I'm also against the death penalty and pro-gay marriage. So I'm not motivated by theology, nor are many of those in the pro-life community.

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Freakshow

09-28-2004, 12:47 PM

I am agnostic and pro-life. May I be of assistance?

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HBox

09-28-2004, 12:54 PM

I am agnostic and pro-life. May I be of assistance?

So am I. So we are not the perfectly unique snowflakes we thought we were.

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TheMojoPin

09-28-2004, 12:58 PM

I'm a pretty devout Catholic, and yet, I demand abortions for all!

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Freakshow

09-28-2004, 01:19 PM

I'm a pretty devout Catholic

<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040928/od_nm/christ_dc">Then you have a pilgrimage to make</a>

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TheMojoPin

09-28-2004, 01:36 PM

My idols only show up in food products OR NOT AT ALL!!!

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1979 <> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

keithy_19

09-28-2004, 01:44 PM

Church and state. Seperate.

That is the most misunderstood term, possibly in the history of America.

Seperation of Church and State means that the government(state) cannot make a person(you) believe in one religion. They cannot force you to feel a way.

Banning abortion, which I personally feel will never happen, has nothing to do with religion. Although you may see people who are pro life throwing bibles around, I do not feel this issue has anything to do with religion.

I personally am against abortion, unless it is used for rape victims or if the mother is at risk for serious life altering injury. I don't want some lady going into an abortion clinic and getting their child aborted(murdered in my opinion) just because they don't want him/her.

Partial birth abortion is a totally different subject. Those should be illegal.

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mikeyboy

09-28-2004, 02:04 PM

My idols only show up in food products OR NOT AT ALL!!!

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DJEvelEd

09-28-2004, 03:07 PM

I'm a really twisted fuck but even I realize that it's wrong to kill a human f‘tus. Have you ever seen a bag of those cute little buggers? They're almost as cute as a bag of kittens. How could females even support this? Abortion is the height of selfishness. Why can't the women at least freeze the f‘tus in nitrogen or something, or grow it in a testtube. STOP KILLING F’TUS!!! VIVA LOS F’TUS!!!

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TheMojoPin

09-28-2004, 04:30 PM

I don't want some lady going into an abortion clinic and getting their child aborted(murdered in my opinion) just because they don't want him/her.

What right do YOU, or anyone else, have to decide this for someone else? You don't have to APPROVE of the practice, but that doesn't mean you can decide someone else can't have one.

Partial birth abortion is a totally different subject. Those should be illegal.

Then you're contradicting yourself, since those are only used when the mother is at extreme risk from the pregnancy.

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Mike Teacher

09-28-2004, 04:31 PM

Science does not consider it a life at 6 weeks post conception. Religion does.

I think this may well be the largest Grey Area in Science. And 'Life' is the key word. When it's a 'Human' or a 'person' may be an entirely different issue.

Anyway, what I mean is there are several levels working here. If one defines life Biologically; there's an excellent arguement that sperm are alive. And the Egg. Before they ever meet.

Is the fertilized egg 'Human' or a 'Potential Human'? Again, another issue, but again, using some of the strict Bio definitions for life: movement, reaction to stimuli, reproduction, and a couple of others [there are no strict rules, another grey area under debate. Like viruses; some argue whether they are indeed 'life' or not]... it's all Life.

My Opinion? Life began about 4 billion years ago and is a continuum, perhaps part Dawkin's selfish gene, perhaps part of something else we are utterly aware of.

Makes me go 'hmmmmmm???...'

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DJEvelEd

09-28-2004, 04:42 PM

What right do YOU, or anyone else, have to decide this for someone else? You don't have to APPROVE of the practice, but that doesn't mean you can decide someone else can't have one.

So we can save peoples precious lives and have more little Mojo's running around.

running and shitting......

running and shitting.....

running and shitting....

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keithy_19

09-28-2004, 04:44 PM

NewYorkDragons80

09-28-2004, 04:49 PM

Is the fertilized egg 'Human' or a 'Potential Human'? Again, another issue, but again, using some of the strict Bio definitions for life: movement, reaction to stimuli, reproduction, and a couple of others [there are no strict rules, another grey area under debate. Like viruses; some argue whether they are indeed 'life' or not]... it's all Life.
But when we consider what's at stake, is it not more prudent to give life the benefit of the doubt?

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El Mudo

09-28-2004, 04:59 PM

I gotta disagree.

I'd much rather have things like guns and drugs and abortion ruled on state by state than with wide-ranging federal rulings and laws. If a state wants to outlaw one of the said practices/items/issues, or legalize them, that's its decision as an idependant legislature. State's rights!

Mojo just became my new hero....

I'm for States Rights as much as anyone, to the point where I consider myself a Marylander first, and an American second, its what this country was founded on, look one of my favorite amendments...the 10th Amendment, which once meant something before the Radical Republicans killed it in the 1870s, then took a dump on it...

This is why I didn't like that Supreme Court decison on the Sodomy law, and why I don't approve of a Federal Amendment for/against gay marriage....If the people of my State, the State of Maryland, want things a certain way for itself, then thats the way its got to be

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TheMojoPin

09-28-2004, 05:10 PM

What right do YOU, or anyone else, have to decide this for someone else? You don't have to APPROVE of the practice, but that doesn't mean you can decide someone else can't have one.

I feel that abortion, in a situation like that is murder. I don't want someone in my life, so I'll kill them. To me, it's the same concept.

http://64.177.177.182/katylina/tarasig.jpg

Can you prove it?

For someone to be charged and convicted with murder, a case has to be proven against them.

If someone can finally prove that some kind of "life" is formed at conception that is the SAME as a born human being, then I'll readily change my mind. In the meantime, science INDICATES (But does not prove) that for at least the first 6 weeks, that is not a human being as we would charge someone with "murder" over "killing."

Hence the middle ground...choice. If people wish to have an abortion, they can. If someone does not wish to, then they don't have to. Both sides win. There's zero reason one should be able to tell the other what to do. There's zero reason both can't co-exist. Neither has to APPROVE of the other, but it's wrong for one to try and impeach the physical and medical rights of the other.

Personally, I would never want or choose an abortion for my wife/girlfriend...but it's not my place to tell others that they can't make that choice themselves just because I don't agree with them.

And El Mudo...testify!

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1979 <> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

Mike Teacher

09-28-2004, 05:13 PM

But when we consider what's at stake, is it not more prudent to give life the benefit of the doubt?

Thats the Big Question. I wish the 'Yes' that leaps from my mind is the response that Silera mentioned above, and this is one of the greatest sentences I have ever read:

There is a code of life, that I think transcends all religions and peoples.

This to me, is a stunning, deep, sweeping idea. Wonderful! And for me, absolutely true. Wthout a doubt. A tautology. Not even on the table for discussion. A given. And for me, it has nothing to do with whether or not its about a God, or a higher power, or whatever. For me, it just Is.

=

But sadly, I have to say, looking back at the behaviour of our species, we have utterly ignored the Code Silera mentions with said benefit of a doubt.

Wow I hope any of this makes sense. Ask Silera. I'm still dealing with the poetry of that sentence. I'm actually envious, and i'm dead serious.

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keithy_19

09-28-2004, 05:13 PM

The child starts to form at conception. That's life enough for me.

http://64.177.177.182/katylina/tarasig.jpg

TheMojoPin

09-28-2004, 05:15 PM

You're deciding that. That's your opinion. Why do you NEED to force that belief on others?

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1979 <> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

sr71blackbird

09-28-2004, 05:30 PM

Stop! They will never over turn it and they shouldnt because no matter what now, its a womans right to choose what effects her body, as it should. It would be suicidal for any politician anyway so no one will tackle it. It will only be a change in peoples attitudes that will make the practice stop, and that will never happen, so forgettaboutit!

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TheMojoPin

09-28-2004, 05:30 PM

Exactly.

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1979 <> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

angrymissy

09-28-2004, 06:50 PM

The child starts to form at conception. That's life enough for me.

please educate yourself before posting in this forum.

how does a "child" start to form at conception?

and the big question, as a man, where the hell do you get off telling me what to do with my body? pretty easy to pass judgement since you can never become pregnant.

 <img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/missy2.gif" width="300" height="100" border="1">

This message was edited by angrymissy on 9-28-04 @ 10:50 PM

monsterone

09-28-2004, 06:57 PM

the funny thing about the religious anti-abortionists is how little faith you have in your god. why must you, christian soldier, do gods work on earth when you are told there is a very fitting place waiting for murderers, much less picking up arms to stop the murder doctors.

seriously, everything in life has consequences. in this world and the next. that is my opinion

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DJEvelEd

09-28-2004, 07:14 PM

pretty easy to pass judgement since you can never become pregnant.

So only women can pass judgement on killing the f‘tus? You are passing judgement by having an abortion in the first place. (the judgement that life is worthless to you)

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This message was edited by DJEvelEd on 9-28-04 @ 11:15 PM

Tenbatsuzen

09-28-2004, 07:27 PM

So only women can pass judgement on killing the f‘tus? You are passing judgement by having an abortion in the first place. (the judgement that life is worthless to you)

Her body, her choice, but for the record, Missy never brought up her personal choices in this thread, so shut your fucking trap when it comes to personal attacks.

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TheMojoPin

09-28-2004, 07:29 PM

You are passing judgement by having an abortion in the first place. (the judgement that life is worthless to you)

"Why ya care?"

It's not your body. It's not your baby.

Like m1 said, if it turns out the pro-choicers are wrong, hey, the Lord will give us ours in the afterlife. In the meantime, quite frankly, butt the fuck out of other people's vaginas. It's one thing to not agree with their choices...but how are people getting abortions actually effecting YOU?

Ultimately, it's the mother's decision. Why?

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 9-28-04 @ 11:31 PM

reeshy

09-28-2004, 07:32 PM

Damn, I wish I was as smart as some people on this thread "think" they are....life is life....a fetus is a human baby...simple...it has the right to life!!!!!

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TheMojoPin

09-28-2004, 07:34 PM

And the mother has no right to control her own body?

Look, I'm not saying either side is right or wrong...but to all the anti-abortion people out there, AGAIN, how is some person you'll never know getting an abortion impacting your life? You might not agree with you...and may never get one yourself or want your partner to get one...but why worry about all these people who choose to do so? That's the point of the "choice" aspect...it's an ambiguous issue for a lot of people. There's no clear-cut answer...so we have the freedom to choose either way. That's how it's SUPPOSED to be in this country. Until science can conclusively prove otherwise, having a choice is the most sensible option. That way those who choose to do so can, and those that don't, don't.

What's the problem with options? Why do people HAVE to push their beliefs on others, or make up other people's minds for them?

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1979 <> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 9-28-04 @ 11:39 PM

FUNKMAN

09-28-2004, 07:37 PM

if the state or federal govt puts a law into effect that bans all abortions then they need to guarantee the welfare/well-being of that child once it is born and until it reaches adulthood...

which they certainly cannot do...

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This message was edited by FUNKMAN on 9-28-04 @ 11:38 PM

Tenbatsuzen

09-28-2004, 07:37 PM

And the mother has no right to control her own body?

Well, pregnant girls are hot. There's no denying that.

But yeah, she should have a CHOICE.

It's her responsibility to deal with the consequences of that choice, but I'd rather have the choice then having no choice.

I'm a republican, but a moderate leaning one. I believe in pro-choice, but I have a heaving leaning towards adoption.

I lost my train of thought.

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HBox

09-28-2004, 07:39 PM

I don't buy the argument that it's a woman's body. It isn't just her body. There is another person involved here, or at least that's what I believe. It would be one thing if pregnancy just sprang up on women out of nowhere, but that's not the case (except in rape, but that's different). People know exactly how pregnancies happen, and how they can avoid them. I can't think of a reason outside of saving the mother's life to allow what is in my view killling.

Look, I'm not saying either side is right or wrong...but to all the anti-abortion people out there, AGAIN, how is some person you'll never know getting an abortion impacting your life?

I see abortion as killing a human being. People I don't know are murdered everyday. Does that mean it's not any of my business? I'm sorry, this is just how I see it.

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This message was edited by HBox on 9-28-04 @ 11:41 PM

TheMojoPin

09-28-2004, 07:43 PM

I can't think of a reason outside of saving the mother's life to allow what is in my view killling.

EXACTLY.

YOUR view.

It's not a concrete universal view, or an absolute proven factor. Therein lies the problem. Scientifically, the issue can go either way. Hence the option of choice in the meantime. There is nothing outside of belief that indicates an abortion (Up to a certain point during the pregnancy) is somehow the same as the murder of a human being.

You and I find abortion pretty hideous. Hence why we PERSONALLY would hope our partners would not choose the option (Maybe you'd do more to stop her...I wouldn't). But there are people out there who would choose to have an abortion based on the same ambiguous science that we are stuck with on our side. What we BELIEVE in cannot translate to law. It's too "grey." Until a conclusive answer can be found, the logical solution is to allow people a CHOICE, so they can each follow their individual beliefs. Someone besides my partner choosing or not choosing to have an abortion doesn't effect me in the slightest. Why should it? Nobody actually KNOWS for sure when life begins. Until then, why are we all acting like we DO know?

The bottom line? BELIEF should not equal law.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 9-28-04 @ 11:45 PM

FUNKMAN

09-28-2004, 07:47 PM

if the state or federal govt puts a law into effect that bans all abortions then they need to guarantee the welfare/well-being of that child once it is born and until it reaches adulthood...

which they certainly cannot do... and sometimes neither can the mother.

so now you have an abused or neglected child

good going man!

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HBox

09-28-2004, 07:52 PM

so now you have an abused or neglected child

If someone gave me a choice before I was born to either be a neglected and abused child or not live at all, I'd choose to live.

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reeshy

09-28-2004, 07:54 PM

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This message was edited by reeshy on 9-28-04 @ 11:56 PM

TheMojoPin

09-28-2004, 07:54 PM

And how does somebody else choosing to get an abortion effect or change YOUR beliefs and opinions?

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1979 <> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

reeshy

09-28-2004, 07:55 PM

What's the problem with options? Why do people HAVE to push their beliefs on others, or make up other people's minds for them?

WAS I pushing my opnions on you??????...It's simply my opinion!!! Why is this thread here if I can't express my "opinion"?????

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HBox

09-28-2004, 07:57 PM

WAS I pushing my opnions on you??????...It's simply my opinion!!! Why is this thread here if I can't express my "opinion"?????

Exactly. I'm not gonna sit here and accept what I see as killing just because other people don't see it that way.

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FUNKMAN

09-28-2004, 07:58 PM

If someone gave me a choice before I was born to either be a neglected and abused child or not live at all, I'd choose to live.

sounds like pro-choice...

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TheMojoPin

09-28-2004, 07:59 PM

WAS I pushing my opnions on you??????...

I didn't say you were. That was a general statement about anti-abortion activists who want to hinder other people's ability to choose to have abortions.

Exactly. I'm not gonna sit here and accept what I see as killing just because other people don't see it that way.

WHAT. YOU. SEE. AS. KILLING.

YOU.

YOU.

YOU.

YOU.

YOU.

YOU.

YOU.

That's your OPINION. When you get right down to it, both sides are basing their overall points on OPINIONS. So how is one side's OPINIONS somehow more valid than the other's OPINIONS?

You have one side that says abortion is murder. You have one side that says it's not. Then you have people in the middle who realize that both sides are basing this all on their OPINIONS, and that until something can actually be PROVEN, the logical choice is that those who oppose abortion will choose to not get them, and those that don't oppose it can choose to get them. It's a middle ground. It doesn't force anyone to actually change their beliefs.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 9-29-04 @ 12:06 AM

HBox

09-28-2004, 08:19 PM

sounds like pro-choice...

No. In my example the person who's life was at stake made the decision.

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This message was edited by HBox on 9-29-04 @ 12:20 AM

TheMojoPin

09-28-2004, 08:20 PM

Is there EVER a possible ending for these abortion threads that doesn't involve brain-smothering headaches?

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1979 <> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

FUNKMAN

09-28-2004, 08:28 PM

No. In my example the person who's life was at stake made the decision.

you're right! but you will always situations where the girl who gets pregnant will decide to have an abortion regardless if it is illegal. Keep it legal and allow them to use Clinics with sanitary facilities and good doctors.

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Mike Teacher

09-28-2004, 08:32 PM

Scientifically, the issue can go either way.

more like any one of a gazillion ways, id say.

When is it life? is an embryo a life, a potential life? before implantation? After? What about In Vitro?When is it living? when can it feel pain? When can it live on its own. 'It' representing the universal everything from sperm and egg to teenager, so as not to deman any aspect of the stage.

It's a lot of questions. And all our responses show all the different and conflicting interpretations of said data; meaning the data still isnt good enough [it isnt for a lot of those above, I would opine], or if as Mojo said, opinions vary.

Here's a question that was a cover story in Parade Magazine [i clip science stuff] about im guessing 10-15 years back; it got a Huge response in Mail for the magazine. The article, not the title, but here's the title:

Q: Can a person be Both Pro-Life and Pro-Choice?

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TheMojoPin

09-28-2004, 08:35 PM

Q: Can a person be Both Pro-Life and Pro-Choice?

In what way?

If you mean that straightforward, then I am. I find the idea of abortion loathsome and disgusting...but at this point I don't feel right in denying other people the choice to have one.

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Mike Teacher

09-28-2004, 08:41 PM

Lemme get the article; I have it, and will let you know exactly what was meant. I think it boiled down to, can a person vehementaly oppose abortion, wish they never happen in a perfect world; but, realizing an imperfect world, defers to keep the choice open, as an imperfect but necesary approach to a quasi-solution.

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reeshy

09-28-2004, 08:43 PM

Exactly. I'm not gonna sit here and accept what I see as killing just because other people don't see it that way.

Excuse me,,,Hbox, I wasn't talking to you...in fact, I agree with you!!!!!

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TheMojoPin

09-28-2004, 08:44 PM

can a person vehementaly oppose abortion, wish they never happen in a perfect world; but, realizing an imperfect world, defers to keep the choice open, as an imperfect but necesary approach to a quasi-solution

Yes, that's EXACTLY how I feel.

Wow. How come you were able to say it that easily?!?

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1979 <> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

HBox

09-28-2004, 08:45 PM

Excuse me,,,Hbox, I wasn't talking to you...in fact, I agree with you!!!!

I know. I was agreeing with you!

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This message was edited by HBox on 9-29-04 @ 12:45 AM

Mike Teacher

09-28-2004, 09:00 PM

Here ya go Mojo; from the article:

"Is it wrong to abort a pregnancy? Always? Never? Sometimes? How do we decide? What are the contending views? Is there no middle ground?

"Nearly everyone recognizes that the issue is not wholly one-sided. Many partisans of differing views, we find, feel some disquiet, some unease when confronting what's behind the opposing arguements. And the issue touches on some deep questions: What are our responsibilities to each other? Should we permit the state to enter into the most intimate and personal aspects of our lives? Where are the boundries of freedom?

"Of the many points of view, it is widely held, especially in the media, that there are only two: "pro-choice" and "pro life." Few people wish to be counted either as being against freedom of choice or as opposed to life. Indeed, freedom and life are two of our most cherished values, and here they seem to be in fundamental conflict."

from an article published in Parade, April 22, 1990 by Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan

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Mike Teacher

09-28-2004, 09:21 PM

Wow. How come you were able to say it that easily?!?

easily? i wish. its an imperfect short answer for my OPINION on the issue.

The article from Parade caused an uproar, and they were bending over backwards to make a neutral article. It's two scientists 'attempting'; their word, to deal directly with some of the many aspects of the issue.

=

I will admit some science classes have forced the issue, it comes up, and someone asks how I feel on an issue, and then the whole class is like "Yeah! Whats Your Stance?!" and I'm not gonna lie to them, meaning I cant; you dont fool 30 high school kids at once, it doesnt happen, at least not with an issue like this, so I answer. After I write the word OPINION like I did above in at least foot high letters on the chalkboard.

And giving them the 'My aim is to teach you *How* to look at some things, not *What* to think about them' disclaimer.

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This message was edited by Mike Teacher on 9-29-04 @ 1:22 AM

monsterone

09-28-2004, 09:21 PM

from a social point of view: the woman and partner have equal decisions in bringing a child into the world. (the woman carries, the man pays)

for a religious point of view: using abortion as birth control is something that has ramifications in this world(psychologically) and in the next.

my opinion.

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reeshy

09-28-2004, 09:33 PM

I know. I was agreeing with you!

sorry

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reeshy

09-28-2004, 09:44 PM

whoopsy

09-28-2004, 09:45 PM

I don't buy the argument that it's a woman's body. It isn't just her body.

I thought this was a joke post at first, but then it got serious in a hurry..

guess no good can come out of an abortion thread.. I think people on the board underestimate how many pro-lifers exist in the US - if left to the states, a lot more states would ban it than you'd think. "Don't worry about it, they'd never do it" is the kind of argument i don't pay attention to anymore with this administration.

- i feel a lock comin on -

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Yerdaddy

09-28-2004, 11:19 PM

http://home.earthlink.net/~modicum1/abortion.gif

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Fuck it from behind.

bigbaldirish

09-29-2004, 12:19 AM

the be all, end all to this conversation if you think its right or wrong.

with out the R v. W decision women would still be getting abortions, albeit they'd be doing it with hangers by themselves. my personal views do not affect this FACT. i am pro choice for every single person that is not in my group of family and friends. and even then, it is there choice. the only one in my life who i would not ever let get an abortion is my GF, because if it came down to it, "give me my child"

and for bible thumping people who JUDGE others who have abortions ever hear the saying
"Judge not lest ye be judged yourself"

and for those who preach, please become your local spiritual leader.

State your views, and your argument behind them, because all in all, if the decision is overturned, there will be dead fetus' and dead/horribly mangled women turning up all around the country.

we live in america, choice is a major part of our lives, i'd like to keep all the choices that can be made.

btw this is not a personal attack against any person, that is my opinion on the preachy and judge comments. after re- reading what i wrote, and some of the other comments written by others it could be taken as such.
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This message was edited by bigbaldirish on 9-29-04 @ 4:27 AM

Mike Teacher

09-29-2004, 01:10 AM

and for those who preach, please become your local spiritual leader.

Hit the winning cowbell. That rules.

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sr71blackbird

09-29-2004, 03:38 AM

Not to throw a monkey wrench into all thats been said here, but doesnt it seem that women have all the "hand" in this situation? Im not at all saying its an improper power, especially since I support their right to choose, but if a woman chooses life, a man is obligated by law to support that child financially (child support). But if she chooses abortion....a man does not have any say. So in both regards, the man has no choice at all.

Just a thought

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jeffdwright2001

09-29-2004, 03:49 AM

But if she chooses abortion....a man does not have any say. So in both regards, the man has no choice at all.

His choice was made when he opted to not wear the condom.

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angrymissy

09-29-2004, 05:42 AM

You know, I read the Bible. no where in the Bible does it say it's ok to abort a baby...For those who say a fetus is not a child..then what the hell is it...a piece of dirt until it's born??? I just don't understand!!!!

But you see, I don't read the bible, and I don't follow the bible or believe in it. Why should the bible dictate my reproductive choices?

In my opinion, a fetus is not a child until it can survive outside of the mothers body (around 22/24 weeks gestation). Until then, the woman should have a choice, considering it is her body that is supporting this fetus.

A ban on abortions would cause a lot of deaths due to back-alley, or self-induced abortions. I've known people who took overdoses of asprin, tylenol, anything they could get their hands on, because of the desperation felt to end the pregnancy. Until you are a woman facing an unwanted pregnancy, you cannot understand the absolute desperation that is felt.

I believe that the choice should involve the man as well, but ultimately, he is not the one that will have to carry the child for 9 months. It is very very easy to scream murderer, and point fingers, when you don't have a uterus and can safely know that you will never, ever have to face that choice.

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silera

09-29-2004, 06:09 AM

We should work on eliminating abortions by providing more options to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

There should be more sex education given to teenagers, more birth control options offered to women and men, and over the counter sale of birth control pills.

How sick is it that my health insurance will pay for up to two abortions a year but will not cover the cost of birth control pills? Birth control pills are sold over the counter in most modern nations, but in the US, I have to visit an OBGYN every three months, just to tell her that I'm still fucking the same guy and to please write me another three month "baby free pass."

So, the insurers pay her $250 a pop, that's 1K a year. I get to pay another $480 out of pocket. That's 1500 a year, and I'm lucky because I have health insurance.

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TheMojoPin

09-29-2004, 06:40 AM

There should be more sex education given to teenagers, more birth control options offered to women and men, and over the counter sale of birth control pills.

Bra-fucking-vo.

Most, not all, but MOST anti-abortion people tend to come at this from a "Biblical" or religious standpoint...which also typically naysays the idea of any kind of public sex education. Sex education that would reduce the number not only of unwanted pregnancies (Less people getting abortions), but also STD's.

The various churches need to come to a realization that their archaic "nobody fucks until we say so"-mentality is over and done with at this point. They need to make a choice.

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1979 <> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

NewYorkDragons80

09-29-2004, 10:28 AM

A ban on abortions would cause a lot of deaths due to back-alley, or self-induced abortions.
Well abortion is the inflicted killing of one human being by another, so why should we be concerned about the possible deaths that could occur in the cases of attempted infaticide?

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Recyclerz

09-29-2004, 11:41 AM

Justice Scalia's reasoning is why Roe will ultimately be overturned (assuming Bush's re-election)

Abortion too fundamental to be decided by judges (http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/09/29/scalia.harvard.ap/index.html)

NYDragons' reasoning is why abortion will be made illegal in most of this country shortly thereafter.

Anybody who thinks that abortion should be a personal decision made by the woman with the zygote (and whatever support group she has) can reason, explain, cajole, etc. all day long about why the government shouldn't be involved in the process but the restrictions/banning will go into law. Until the Pro-Choice crowd organizes to match the heat that the Pro-Life movement can bring to the state legislatures (and they are way, way behind) reproductive privacy rights are going to disappear like the lights do when a technician in an Ohio power plant spills his coffee.

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DJEvelEd

09-29-2004, 11:44 AM

All of you people who are pro-abortion are lucky your mothers didn't feel the same way you do.

How selfish you are!!!

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angrymissy

09-29-2004, 11:46 AM

Well abortion is the inflicted killing of one human being by another,

Your personal opinion. When does a fetus become a "human"? That's the question behind this whole debate.

so why should we be concerned about the possible deaths that could occur in the cases of attempted infaticide?

You're talking about real, live women dying for a potential life.

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angrymissy

09-29-2004, 11:48 AM

Until the Pro-Choice crowd organizes to match the heat that the Pro-Life movement can bring to the state legislatures (and they are way, way behind) reproductive privacy rights are going to disappear like the lights do when a technician in an Ohio power plant spills his coffee

They have organized. There was a march in DC a few months ago with hundreds of thousands of women from across the country.

All of you people who are pro-abortion are lucky your mothers didn't feel the same way you do.

How selfish you are!!!

mmmhmmm. selfish. The choice to abort a pregnancy is a hard one, faced by many women, and in most cases, I wouldn't consider it selfish to abort a pregnancy, rather than to bring an unwanted child into the world.

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This message was edited by angrymissy on 9-29-04 @ 3:50 PM

DJEvelEd

09-29-2004, 12:06 PM

Your personal opinion. When does a fetus become a "human"? That's the question behind this whole debate

It sounds like you have killed a few and this is how you rationalize depriving the live of your baby. If it makes you feel better to believe that, than good for you, bad for your dead child. Would you be opposed to freezing your baby in nitrogen or growing it in a test tube? Or do you just HAVE to kill your baby, no matter what?

rather than to bring an unwanted child into the world.

Unwanted by who? You? Talk about passing judgement on someone else. That child wants to live!!!

There has to be a way to save these kids lives!!!

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This message was edited by DJEvelEd on 9-29-04 @ 4:10 PM

angrymissy

09-29-2004, 12:23 PM

It sounds like you have killed a few and this is how you rationalize depriving the live of your baby. If it makes you feel better to believe that, than good for you, bad for your dead child. Would you be opposed to freezing your baby in nitrogen or growing it in a test tube? Or do you just HAVE to kill your baby, no matter what?

fanatic much? we've had this debate here before, and yes, I had an abortion when I was very young. I'm not ashamed of it, and I'm not a "murderer". I did the right thing, and I'm firm in that belief. And I've shared that experience in debate on this board before. I've actually been able to hold a "grown-up" debate on this issue with many pro-life people on the board (nydragons80 being one of them), without it delving into personal attacks and name-calling.

The reason I am passionate about this issue is because I've been through it. Many of my friends have been through it. And no one who HASN'T been through it, could totally understand it.

You can argue your point, but when you stoop down to fanatical ramblings, it just makes you look like you have no ground to stand on.

PS - there is no need to lock this due to "personal attacks/name calling" whatever. I really could care less what some people think of me.

 <img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/missy2.gif" width="300" height="100" border="1">

This message was edited by angrymissy on 9-29-04 @ 4:26 PM

DJEvelEd

09-29-2004, 12:35 PM

Can you please point out the "personal attack" and the name I called you? And yes, you should feel guilty.

<img src="http://64.177.177.182/katylina/originoffeces.jpg">
GIVING THE FUNNY TO PRESENTLY SEEN DEPTHS
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This message was edited by DJEvelEd on 9-29-04 @ 4:37 PM

angrymissy

09-29-2004, 12:36 PM

Can you please point out the "personal attack"?

ummmm....

It sounds like you have killed a few and this is how you rationalize depriving the live of your baby. If it makes you feel better to believe that, than good for you, bad for your dead child.


Like I said, I don't really give a shit so it's a moot point.

 <img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/missy2.gif" width="300" height="100" border="1">

This message was edited by angrymissy on 9-29-04 @ 4:38 PM

DJEvelEd

09-29-2004, 12:38 PM

ummmmm. not.........you lose

<img src="http://64.177.177.182/katylina/originoffeces.jpg">
GIVING THE FUNNY TO PRESENTLY SEEN DEPTHS
SPONSORED BY: "THE F’CESTOF C’SAR" BY ’SOP c464 B.C.
HAS ANYONE SEEN MY BIG WET GAPING ’NUS FILLED WITH DIARRH’?

angrymissy

09-29-2004, 12:39 PM

And yes, you should feel guilty.

Oh! Here comes the guilt fairy!

... and you've been pregnant how many times? Brought up a child? Anything?

 <img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/missy2.gif" width="300" height="100" border="1">

This message was edited by angrymissy on 9-29-04 @ 4:40 PM

NewYorkDragons80

09-29-2004, 12:48 PM

When does a fetus become a "human"? That's the question behind this whole debate.
I don't empirically know, but I strongly feel that it is at the moment of fertilization. Again, if we don't know, we should give life the benefit of the doubt.

You're talking about real, live women dying for a potential life.
And unless the child posed a real health risk to the woman, there was absolutely no legal pretext for the abortion (if abortion was made illegal).

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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silera

09-29-2004, 12:58 PM

A fertilized egg cannot survive on it's own, and may not even develop into a baby as 20% of fertilized eggs are naturally expelled by the woman's body in miscarriages before they even know they're pregnant.

<center>http://hometown.aol.com/bonedaddy5/images/silerass.jpg
AND WHAT?</center>

keithy_19

09-29-2004, 01:01 PM

I think that a child has a right to life. We should kill a child because of someones fuck up? It's barbaric.

http://64.177.177.182/katylina/tarasig.jpg

angrymissy

09-29-2004, 01:08 PM

I think that a child has a right to life. We should kill a child because of someones fuck up? It's barbaric.

Define "someones fuck up". If someone is using birth control, and a doctor prescribes them certain types of antibiotics, the birth control could fail. That's an example of a woman taking responsiblity for her fertility and becoming pregnant anyway. Why should she be forced to carry that fetus to term?

I actually knew someone in high school, who had this really controlling boyfriend, that poked holes in the condoms he used because he wanted to "trap" her in the relationship. She thought she was having protected sex and she wasn't. Guess what, she ended up getting pregnant. He admitted what he had done, and she got an abortion, and a restraining order. Why should she be forced to carry that fetus to term?

Once again, define what you believe to be a "child". Is a 4 week old fetus a child in your eyes?

 <img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/missy2.gif" width="300" height="100" border="1">

This message was edited by angrymissy on 9-29-04 @ 5:11 PM

HBox

09-29-2004, 01:15 PM

Define "someones fuck up". If someone is using birth control, and a doctor prescribes them certain types of antibiotics, the birth control could fail. That's an example of a woman taking responsiblity for her fertility and becoming pregnant anyway. Why should she be forced to carry that fetus to term?

Because the doctor will say, and it's usually hammered home in sex ed classes, that the only 100% way to avoid pregnancies is abstinence. Doctors tell women the risks before prescribing birth control. Hell, doctors usually check with patients before prescribing antibiotics. Good pharmacies will even check with women before dispensing antibiotics or birth control.

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

This message was edited by HBox on 9-29-04 @ 5:15 PM

DJEvelEd

09-29-2004, 01:21 PM

and you've been pregnant how many times? Brought up a child? Anything?

So unless I have been pregnant, I'm not allowed to decide what death is? Do you even listen to what you say?

Ay least my conscience is clear. You don't even have remorse! You're still rationalizing the death of your child with some bullshit argument.

I'm not judging you, but I can certainly judge your selfish decision to deprive your son of a life.

At least I have suggestions to fix the problem, unlike most pro-lifers who spend their time being negative and screaming at clinics.

...and why should you care if they take your abortion and grow it in a testtube?

<img src="http://64.177.177.182/katylina/originoffeces.jpg">
GIVING THE FUNNY TO PRESENTLY SEEN DEPTHS
SPONSORED BY: "THE F’CESTOF C’SAR" BY ’SOP c464 B.C.
HAS ANYONE SEEN MY BIG WET GAPING ’NUS FILLED WITH DIARRH’?

This message was edited by DJEvelEd on 9-29-04 @ 5:23 PM

Tenbatsuzen

09-29-2004, 01:22 PM

At this point, Ed is just trying to be SHOCKING (surprise, surprise) and should be summarily ignored.

<center><img src="http://s95227862.onlinehome.us/sigs/chadsig1.jpg"></center>

angrymissy

09-29-2004, 01:23 PM

Doctors tell women the risks before prescribing birth control. Hell, doctors usually check with patients before prescribing antibiotics. Good pharmacies will even check with women before dispensing antibiotics or birth control.

I had to stop a friend and have her call the pharmacy when she told me she was starting antibiotics. Her birth control pills were obtained from Planned Parenthood (medical insurance usually does not cover them, so Planned Parenthood is the cheapest way to get the pills). Her antibiotics were filled at the local pharmacy. She called the pharmacy and they got her script changed to something that would not interfere with her BC. No one caught the potential interaction. Things like that happen. The reasons behind getting an abortion are not always so cut-and-dry.

 <img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/missy2.gif" width="300" height="100" border="1">

keithy_19

09-29-2004, 01:24 PM

Once again, define what you believe to be a "child". Is a 4 week old fetus a child in your eyes?

Yes. Yes I do.

http://64.177.177.182/katylina/tarasig.jpg

DJEvelEd

09-29-2004, 01:26 PM

At this point, Ed is just trying to be SHOCKING

Abortion is shocking enough. You ever see a bag of bloody abortions? You ever see a sonogram of a F‘tus trying to move away from some forceps?

Please continue to ignore me tenbat. This thread was better off without your two cents, unless you want to join the debate with some intelligence.

<img src="http://64.177.177.182/katylina/originoffeces.jpg">
GIVING THE FUNNY TO PRESENTLY SEEN DEPTHS
SPONSORED BY: "THE F’CESTOF C’SAR" BY ’SOP c464 B.C.
HAS ANYONE SEEN MY BIG WET GAPING ’NUS FILLED WITH DIARRH’?

This message was edited by DJEvelEd on 9-29-04 @ 5:28 PM

angrymissy

09-29-2004, 01:27 PM

So unless I have been pregnant, I'm not allowed to decide what death is? Do you even listen to what you say?

Yes I do. I really like to see where people are coming from on this issue. It is very easy to point fingers, when you:

1. Could never become pregnant
2. Have never raised a child

 <img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/missy2.gif" width="300" height="100" border="1">

Yerdaddy

09-29-2004, 01:29 PM

So unless I have been pregnant, I'm not allowed to decide what is death is? Do you even listen to what you say?

Ay least my conscience is clear. You don't even have remorse! You're still rationalizing the death of your child with some bullshit argument.

I'm not judging you, but I can certainly judge your selfish decision to deprive your son of a life.

At least I have suggestions to fix the problem, unlike most pro-lifers who spend their time being negative and screaming at clinics.

...and why should you care if they take your abortion and grow it in a testtube?

You can hide safely behind your gender without ever having the possibility to be put in her position. Becaue of that difference, you have no right to judge her, which is exactly what you're doing despite your denial. You have no idea how she felt or what she went through before and after making that decision. I think you're way out of line making this a personal attack.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

DJEvelEd

09-29-2004, 01:30 PM

2. Have never raised a child

I could have raised your abortion if you didn't kill it.

If I was on a jury, Missy would be guilty. Not saying that she wouldn't be forgiven by God(higher power) but she has to accept what she has done and live with it.

<img src="http://64.177.177.182/katylina/originoffeces.jpg">
GIVING THE FUNNY TO PRESENTLY SEEN DEPTHS
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This message was edited by DJEvelEd on 9-29-04 @ 5:33 PM

keithy_19

09-29-2004, 01:36 PM

I have a friend who's mom works in a womens health clinic. One of the things they do is perform abortions. She see's first hand, women who go in and have abortions numerous times.

I feel there is something wrong with that.

http://64.177.177.182/katylina/tarasig.jpg

DJEvelEd

09-29-2004, 01:38 PM

How is judging death a personal attack? If you don't like my argument, just ignore me. I feel that people that kill their children are wrong and should be held accountable.

<img src="http://64.177.177.182/katylina/originoffeces.jpg">
GIVING THE FUNNY TO PRESENTLY SEEN DEPTHS
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Yerdaddy

09-29-2004, 01:42 PM

I could have raised your abortion if you didn't kill it.
How many adopted children do you have now?
If I was on a jury, Missy would be guilty. Not saying that she wouldn't be forgiven by God(higher power) but she has to accept what she has done and live with it.
So you have the same right to judge her as god, you're just not sure if you would come to the same conclusion. You just ventured into the category of extremist.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

DJEvelEd

09-29-2004, 01:47 PM

You can call me all the names you want, but someone who would deprive their child of life seems extreme to me.

And life is all about judgements...

and decisions we make.....

<img src="http://64.177.177.182/katylina/originoffeces.jpg">
GIVING THE FUNNY TO PRESENTLY SEEN DEPTHS
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HAS ANYONE SEEN MY BIG WET GAPING ’NUS FILLED WITH DIARRH’?

Yerdaddy

09-29-2004, 02:04 PM

And you rationalize this view with the empty claim that you would have raised her child for her, yet apparently you haven't adopted any. And you claim moral superiority over her for a situation you are exempt from ever having to be in. And you claim to be defending the rights of the unborn child, yet you haven't shown any consideration for the children who are abused and in foster care, (according to the <a href="http://faq.acf.hhs.gov/cgi-bin/acfrightnow.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_sid=gNnBKJmh&p_lva=&p_faqid=70&p_created=1001611491&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MzYmc F9jYXRfbHZsMT0xMCZwX3BhZ2U9MQ**&p_li=" target="_blank">US Dpt. Health and Human Services</a> there were 896,000 children abused in this country, and 542,000 children in foster care in 2002). You want women, (Specifically Missy), to take on the responsibility for unborn children while you don't have to take any for yourself given the amount of living children suffering through neglect and abuse right now. I'd say you're in no position to be making the kinds of judgements you are making right now.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

DJEvelEd

09-29-2004, 02:13 PM

Missy, I don't judge you. You see, I feel I am responsible for the death of TWO of my children. I have great pain and regret over this and I guess I'm suprised you don't share the same remorse that I have. I wish I could just wish my regrets away with some rationale that it's just some cells floating around but I can't. At the time of the abortions I felt the way you did. I was pro-choice until a few years ago. The guilt has gotten to me as I'm sure it got to my partners. 15 years ago I killed two of my children and I can't take it back.....ever. I can't go back to being pro-choice......ever

<img src="http://64.177.177.182/katylina/originoffeces.jpg">
GIVING THE FUNNY TO PRESENTLY SEEN DEPTHS
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HAS ANYONE SEEN MY BIG WET GAPING ’NUS FILLED WITH DIARRH’?

This message was edited by DJEvelEd on 9-29-04 @ 6:15 PM

TheMojoPin

09-29-2004, 02:19 PM

Because the doctor will say, and it's usually hammered home in sex ed classes, that the only 100% way to avoid pregnancies is abstinence.

Which just leads us in a roundabout way to "don't have sex unless you're willing to get pregnant." That may be an IDEAL scenario, but practically speaking, it's never going to happen. People want to have sex for pleasure, and will continue to do so, on an ever-expanding global-scale.

Banning abortions will not get ride of abortions. Like the drug war and narcotics, it will simply make them more expensive and dangerous.

The answer, in my opinion, is more extensive sex education available to children once they hit puberty. The current levels of sex education are too hindered and too half-assed to truly be effective, and are too often warped by a "abstinence uber alles" mentality that doesn't actually EDUCATE. KNOWLEDGE is the most powerful tool here for people on all sides of this debate. Banning the act of abortion or trying to make criminals out of the people involved in it won't change the larger issue of potent and effective sex education.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 <> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 9-29-04 @ 6:22 PM

FUNKMAN

09-29-2004, 02:21 PM

At the time of the abortions I felt the way you did. I was pro-choice until a few years ago. The guilt has gotten to me as I'm sure it got to my partners. 15 years ago I killed two of my children and I can't take it back.....ever. I can't go back to being pro-choice......ever

what was the 'main reason' for deciding to abort?

<img src="http://www.markfarner.com/2001tour/ribfest8_small.jpg">

give me all the love that's in ya and i'm gonna give you mine

TheMojoPin

09-29-2004, 02:25 PM

Missy, I don't judge you.

Really?

If I was on a jury, Missy would be guilty.

Then what was that?

but she has to accept what she has done and live with it.

How do you know she hasn't, or isn't still? Do you want to wear some kind of scarlet letter? Should she be in jail? Is she supposed to be punished?

Anti-abortionists seem to consistently underestimate how major a decision this is for most of the women who decide to go through with it.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 <> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

Yerdaddy

09-29-2004, 02:27 PM

Because of my own experiences I get defensive about people who assume that the decision is easy or the process painless. Obviously you know it's not. I'm sorry this got so heated.

Consider this though: what you're hearing from Missy on a public messageboard isn't likely to be a full and accurate representation of her feelings on the subject, just as yours' aren't. I imagine if you had this conversation on PMs or better yet in person you would get a better idea of her feelings about this rather than just her political views on the subject.

punching out

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

This message was edited by Yerdaddy on 9-29-04 @ 6:28 PM

NewYorkDragons80

09-29-2004, 02:31 PM

Banning abortions will not get ride of abortions. Like the drug war and narcotics, it will simply make them more expensive and dangerous.
So the ultimate feasibility of completely stomping out a particular act should be the overriding basis for its legality?

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
<img src=http://members.aol.com/cityhawk80/images/nydragonssig.bmp?mtbrand=AOL_US>

DJEvelEd

09-29-2004, 02:38 PM

My wife didn't want the baby for financial and career reasons.

The second was with a sex-friend, not a girlfriend and she just didn't want to keep him/her.

Two REAL shitty reasons (IMHO) to take the innocent life of two of my children I know, and I hope God will forgive me for doing what I did. Looking back now I feel I could have stopped them from doing it, but at the time I really didn't give a shit and thought little of it.

<img src="http://64.177.177.182/katylina/originoffeces.jpg">
GIVING THE FUNNY TO PRESENTLY SEEN DEPTHS
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TheMojoPin

09-29-2004, 02:40 PM

So the ultimate feasibility of completely stomping out a particular act should be the overriding basis for its legality?

But I'm saying it's impossible to "stomp it out." That's just a fact. In a perfect world, sure, but we're so far from that it's not even funny. Hence why a middle ground has to be found somewhere. The drug war comparison seems pretty accurate to me, since the mentality is basically the same..."large group of people wants issue totally erased...an equally large, if not larger, group of people at least DOESN'T want it erased, and even enagages in it." You can't just completely cancel out one side. And falling back on "it's murder" just doesn't work for me legally, even though I support that idea, because scientifically the issue can't be confirmed EITHER way. Hence the necessity for a compromise.

Eventually we have to start being realistic on a number of issues. Think of why banning drugs hasn't work...why banning guns wouldn't work...same thing with abortion. The best one could hope for is to MINIMIZE the amount of abortions...and the best bet for that at this point is wide-ranging sex education. Because banning it won't stop the people who really think they need one from getting one. Proper education, however, is more likely to keep them from getting into that choice in the first place. See what I mean?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 <> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 9-29-04 @ 6:41 PM

DJEvelEd

09-29-2004, 02:43 PM

How do you know she hasn't, or isn't still? Do you want to wear some kind of scarlet letter? Should she be in jail? Is she supposed to be punished?

I judge Missy's ACTIONS, not HER. She should feel some remorse and not support killing MORE f’TUS!!! Stop trying to paint me into a corner with semantics Mojo, You know damn well what I mean...

<img src="http://64.177.177.182/katylina/originoffeces.jpg">
GIVING THE FUNNY TO PRESENTLY SEEN DEPTHS
SPONSORED BY: "THE F’CESTOF C’SAR" BY ’SOP c464 B.C.
HAS ANYONE SEEN MY BIG WET GAPING ’NUS FILLED WITH DIARRH’?

This message was edited by DJEvelEd on 9-29-04 @ 6:44 PM

FUNKMAN

09-29-2004, 02:54 PM

DJEvelED.

Don't beat yourself up over it, what's done is done. If God has a reason for allowing other children to be abducted, abused, neglected, murdered, then he'll have a reason for abortions.

<img src="http://www.markfarner.com/2001tour/ribfest8_small.jpg">

give me all the love that's in ya and i'm gonna give you mine

DJEvelEd

09-29-2004, 03:07 PM

If God has a reason for allowing other children to be abducted, abused, neglected, murdered, then he'll have a reason for abortions.

We have to prevent what we CAN prevent.

I'm trying to find answers to this problem, and the more people that help look for answers the better. I would agree with abortion only if the woman would give up the F‘tus to grow in a test-tube like I said before. This would entail the abortion clinics to have qualified doctors, cryogenists, scientists, and procedures to keep the f‘tus alive and grown in some way. We surely have the technology to do things like this, and the Catholic church has the money. Maybe there could be a happy medium and it would be worth the money spent on it.

<img src="http://64.177.177.182/katylina/originoffeces.jpg">
GIVING THE FUNNY TO PRESENTLY SEEN DEPTHS
SPONSORED BY: "THE F’CESTOF C’SAR" BY ’SOP c464 B.C.
HAS ANYONE SEEN MY BIG WET GAPING ’NUS FILLED WITH DIARRH’?

keithy_19

09-29-2004, 03:14 PM

...So I'm guessing this would be an innapropiate time for a joke about how they tried to abort me and that's the reason why I'm the way I am, right?

http://64.177.177.182/katylina/tarasig.jpg

FUNKMAN

09-29-2004, 03:18 PM

there is just too many issues that need attention on this earth. there are thousand of children dying each day in Africa due to starvation or disease yet there's hundreds of billions of dollars being spent for things like 'finding if there was life on mars several billion years ago' In reality the human race is performing abortions on children that have already been born and abortions even on grown-ups...

<img src="http://www.markfarner.com/2001tour/ribfest8_small.jpg">

give me all the love that's in ya and i'm gonna give you mine

DJEvelEd

09-29-2004, 03:18 PM

So I'm guessing this would be an innapropiate time for a joke about how they tried to abort me and that's the reason why I'm the way I am, right?

Sheeeit, I still got hangar scars and salt burns. Man, our family was POOR!!!

<img src="http://64.177.177.182/katylina/originoffeces.jpg">
GIVING THE FUNNY TO PRESENTLY SEEN DEPTHS
SPONSORED BY: "THE F’CESTOF C’SAR" BY ’SOP c464 B.C.
HAS ANYONE SEEN MY BIG WET GAPING ’NUS FILLED WITH DIARRH’?

This message was edited by DJEvelEd on 9-29-04 @ 7:20 PM

TheMojoPin

09-29-2004, 05:12 PM

Stop trying to paint me into a corner with semantics Mojo, You know damn well what I mean...

No, no I didn't.

The internet is tricky that way.

You're still harping on her like she's supposed to be "doing" something now over something in her past she can't change.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 <> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 9-29-04 @ 9:26 PM

DJEvelEd

09-30-2004, 01:59 AM

You're still harping on her like she's supposed to be "doing" something now over something in her past she can't change.

Yes, not support the killing of more innocent f‘tus.

For example: If someone throws a bag of kittens into the ocean and feels remorse over doing that, why would they support the practice of throwing millions of more kittens into the ocean? I don't see that person as truly sorry for what they did. Everyone makes mistakes, but the trick is to learn from them, not support making more of them.

<img src="http://64.177.177.182/katylina/originoffeces.jpg">
GIVING THE FUNNY TO PRESENTLY SEEN DEPTHS
SPONSORED BY: "THE F’CESTOF C’SAR" BY ’SOP c464 B.C.
HAS ANYONE SEEN MY BIG WET GAPING ’NUS FILLED WITH DIARRH’?

This message was edited by DJEvelEd on 9-30-04 @ 6:04 AM

angrymissy

09-30-2004, 04:01 AM

I don't need to feel remorse for what I did. What you are doing is pushing your guilt onto me. You obviously haven't come to terms with what happened to you.

And I'm not saying everyone should get an abortion, I'm saying the option should be available.

 <img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/missy2.gif" width="300" height="100" border="1">

jeffdwright2001

09-30-2004, 04:28 AM

Ed - I'm a little confused on your situation.

Did YOU actively plan to have children? Or was this a case of protection to working properly?

I only ask, because next to abstinence, protection is the next best method to prevent abortions.

This goes back to Mojo's point of sex education being a key part of reducing the number of abortions (and teenage mothers/fathers).

A person's perspective on a subject is determined a lot by where they happen to be standing at the time. I understand how your views on abortion have changed, particularly in light of what you've experienced.

But sitting in judgement of someone (even if it's just their actions), certainly isn't the most effective way to win them to your side of an argument.

Until the question of "when does life begin" is agreed upon by ALL parties involved, there will never be a resolution to the abortion issue.

As a whole. society agrees that murder is wrong (although we've even mitigated that by narrowing murder to such a fine point that it allows for self-defense, capital punishment, justifiable homicide, and war). But until a starting point for life is determined to the satisfaction of everyone, we can't ascertain when that life is taken.

My son was born almost 8 weeks ago through what I call the "miracle" of Invitro Fertilization. However, my wife and I had to make a decision on how many fertilized eggs to implant. We based that decision on the basis of what the percentages told us in regard to which eggs were likely to continue to grow and by how many were likely to not "stick". Out of 7 total eggs, 6 fertalized to varying degrees. We implanted 4 of them. 1 made it through completely.

Some people will say that we aborted 3 lives (the ones we chose not to implant), some will say that 3 others were aborted naturally (the ones that did not successfully implant), others will say that there were no abortions.

I say, I have a beautiful child who I am ever grateful for having in my life.

To me the ultimate hubris is to contend that I am the person who knows when life ends and begins. I've made so many errors in my life, that history has already shown me that I'm not the best person to be the judge of that.

I only know what is wrong or right for me and even that is seen more clearly after the fact rather than during. In that regard, it's a lot like parenting.

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silera

09-30-2004, 04:35 AM

I think that a child has a right to life. We should kill a child because of someones fuck up? It's barbaric.

I personally am against abortion, unless it is used for rape victims or if the mother is at risk for serious life altering injury. I don't want some lady going into an abortion clinic and getting their child aborted(murdered in my opinion) just because they don't want him/her.

It's just confounding that you and others fail to recognize the double edged sword of judgement and punishment regarding your position on abortion. On the one hand, all pregnancies are potential lives worth saving, yet if the woman was raped, it's ok to kill that life?

If your base reasoning is sound then why should a product of rape be murdered for it's father's actions?

It comes down to the fact that most pro lifer's believe the pregnancy is the mother's fault and she will not learn her lesson until she gets straddled with a kid to teach her how bad she's been. It's as basic as that.

Whenever the issue is discussed inevitably there will be the "pregnancy can be avoided", "I know someone who's had more than one abortion", "some people can get pregnant by accident" debates.

It really is none of anyone's business but my own, and my partner what choices we make with my body and our future. The worst thing we can do, in an issue so muddied with conflicting idealogies, is to leave as many options open.

As Missy just said, I don't want everyone to have an abortion. Yet, if pro-lifer's had there way, everyone would have to bear unwanted children or go through extreme measures to terminate unwanted pregnancies.

Choice is about maintaining options open, not forcing people to have abortions. Choice is about sex education, and birth control availability, and healthy discussions regarding sex, sexuality and responsibility.

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This message was edited by silera on 9-30-04 @ 9:40 AM

TheMojoPin

09-30-2004, 06:26 AM

Yes, not support the killing of more innocent f‘tus.

She has zero obligation to do so. Your opinions and beliefs aren't hers. It's that simple. Regardless of how sure some people SOUND, it's an amibguous issue at BEST.

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bigbaldirish

09-30-2004, 08:57 AM

how about this. if you have a penis, and it's not your child,
keep your opinions to yourself.
1)honestly a woman can find out shes pregnant, and have an abortion without you even knowing. 2)as men we will NEVER know how it feels to choose.
3) most times if a guy doesn't want to deal with his child he will leave.
the last is something i know about. now if my mother knew my father was going to leave when i was conceived i don't know if i'd be here typing this shit with all of you.

do some women use it as birth control? YES and that should be illegal.

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marcpsych

10-02-2004, 10:20 PM

Hello all. I really enjoy being a new member of ronfez.net, and I think it's great to have substantive discussions of important issues like abortion. I just wanted to add a couple of thoughts/feelings about this topic.

First, as has been mentioned, it is important for all of us (especially us men) to realize that making the decision to have an abortion or not is frequently a brutally wrenching decision and an overall painful experience through which to travel. Women often see their support networks (especially the impregnating men) callously evaporate or become very harsh and judgemental. Even if we have strongly held and valid opinions regarding this issue, we cannot really know what these women are going through unless we have gone through it.

But that does not mean that not having gone through the experience makes one's position invalid, just as not having been killed or seeing a family membr killed does not invalidate one's position on capital punishment.

As a pro-life, anti-death penalty Catholic Christian male, I often think of the abortion issue in relation to the concept of inherent human worth, or inherent value. In other words, all of us have some worthiness just by virtue of being one of God's children, or part of nature, or part of the human community, or as someone's son or daughter, or however one wants to frame it.

This sort of belief in inherent worth, or inherit human value, is what leads us to hopefully reject racism, criminal murder, antisemitism, child abuse, and other injustices, even if we have some prejudices with which we struggle.

Slavery of African-Americans was unfortunately able to thrive in part because people in power (whites here and in Africa, other blacks in Africa) made their own determinations about the slaves having very little if any inherent human value. Great numbers of Jews were able to be exterminated in Germany and elsewhere because those in power and the people manipulated by them determined that the Jews were evil, deceptive, trouble-causing, money-grubbing, and not really worthy of being treated as legitimate persons.

Blacks and Jews could be reduced to dehumanized beings that were not precious and valuable individuals in order to serve the purposes of others, because they "deserved it," much like convicted murderers "should die for what they did."

Many self-styled liberal individuals and others sincerely interested in social justice become rightly outraged and mobilize against racism, antisemitism, etc.

So why, then, does a fetus, who will develop into a person, not deserve the same sort of consideration? How many times do we really hear a woman or couple, even pro-choice, who want the child they are carrying refer to it as "my fetus?" instead of the usual "my baby" or "our baby?" Why, then, is it okay for someone to determine that the wanted, intended, and desired "baby" has inherent human worth, and so is deserving of protection, doctor's visits, nourishment, etc., while the unintended or unwanted or undesired "fetus" does not have this same inherent human worth and so does not deserve protection, nourishment, or life?

Are we really able to believe that racism or antisemitism are dehumanizing, belittle human worth, and are therefore wrong, while abortion is okay? The antithesis of social justice is that individuals with control or the opportunity for control over others should make the individual or group choice that those others are unworthy - in other words, assigning or "grsanting" inherent worth based upon personal preference. When a baby is aborted, a judgement has been passed that the baby is not worthy of life, a judgement that most would cringe at were it to be applied to blacks, or those with mental disabilities, or old people.

In addition, how are we to always know if/when a child will be abused, and that we are somehow "saving it" through abortion? There are many people who survive abuse and thrive, or are able to be adopted, or end up with at least a shred of a chance at a decent life. An abortion guarantees ZERO

DJEvelEd

10-03-2004, 02:33 AM

You obviously haven't come to terms with what happened to you.

I obviously have, by ruminating and choosing never to support making that mistake again. I trust that Jesus would share my opinion also and may someday forgive me for depriving my children of life. How do abortionists get forgiveness if they're not even sorry for what they did?

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Mike Teacher

10-03-2004, 03:58 AM

And the idea that abortion is acceptable before a certain point because the child is not really human yet seems lacking.

Fine, but if you carry that to its logical [or illogical] extreme that means some people equate a fetus with a child, some equate a zygote as a child.

Then let's steal Ronnie B.'s posit. If people *truly* equated, in their hearts and minds that an embryo or fetus is as a child, use Four Year old.

=

There's a line of mothers and fathers at the clinic with their four year olds [or two, or one year, or six mnths...], as each goes in the child gets two in the head, and the now non-parent leaves.

=

If the above sounds extreme, thats coz it is. But if someone is saying that some stage of the early game the zygote/blastula/fetus is as a child; one would ask, why arent these people throwing themselves at the people who are entering these clinics, where are the people who would do *anything* to stop this systemitized infanticide?

And that begs a dangerous thing, which i wish not to invoke, because there *have* been cases, most famously the doctor who was shot and killed, and and now my head is pounding.

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silera

11-07-2004, 07:01 PM

Specter Vows Fairness for Judicial Nominees (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041108/ap_on_go_co/congress_4)

WASHINGTON - Insisting he has no litmus test, the Republican in line to head the Senate Judiciary Committee pledged Sunday not to stall President Bush's judicial nominees, even if the prospective judges oppose abortion rights.

Not so impossible.

Abortion Statistics (http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm)

According to a USA Today, CNN Gallup Poll in May, 1999 - 16% of Americans believe abortion should be legal for any reason at any time during pregnancy and 55% of American believe abortion should be legal only to save the life of the mother or in cases of rape or incest.

According to a Gallup Poll in January, 2001 - People who considered themselves to be pro-life rose from 33% to 43% in the past 5 years, and people who considered themselves to be pro-choice declined from 56% to 48%.

Decisions to Have an Abortion (U.S.)
25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing.
21.3% of women cannot afford a baby.
14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child.
12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy.)
10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career.
7.9% of women want no (more) children.
3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health.
2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.

Most of America considers itself pro-life. Where is the follow up?

I think I've told this story before but I'll repeat it. I was married right out of high school and had a son within a year. I wanted a family. Now that I'm older, I know I wanted a family just to make up for the one that I didn't have growing up. I wanted to create everything that I longed for. As the marriage was failing, and I knew that I didn't get what I wanted, I got pregnant with my second son. I was on the pill but I realized that a stomach virus I had at one point the month before made me throw up one of my pills.

I didn't want my second son. To this day, I feel guilty for even contemplating the decision to abort the pregnancy. I couldn't do it because I saw my first son and thought, no matter what, he's the best thing I ever did. I'll always remember one statement from a nurse in the recovery room after though, "You're done after this right? You can't keep having babies." I told her, "My babies aren't costing you shit, get the fuck out."

Therein lies the dichotomy in American culture. We may all say we value life, and abhor abortion. As soon as society has to confront that children aren't just fetus's (ii?) in a woman's womb, and may come at a cost in taxes and public services, we start pointing the finger and placing blame.

How many times have I had to hear the stereo-type regarding Hispanic women having too many kids? Going by the statistics, you would think it was a good thing. America appreciates life as much as it hates immigrants though. Even children born of immigrants on American soil are considered a burden.

If we want to support life, we have to create a society that truly values families. Not just families with money, or families lucky enough to have a full time home maker. Day care, health insurance, living wages, public education, go hand in hand with birthing babies.

Until I feel that the US government is willing to assume the responsibility of raising children, I don't want it to have any part in the decision to bear them.

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TheMojoPin

11-07-2004, 07:16 PM

Therein lies the dichotomy in American culture. We may all say we value life, and abhor abortion. As soon as society has to confront that children aren't just fetus's (ii?) in a woman's womb, and may come at a cost in taxes and public services, we start pointing the finger and placing blame.

How many times have I had to hear the stereo-type regarding Hispanic women having too many kids? Going by the statistics, you would think it was a good thing. America appreciates life as much as it hates immigrants though. Even children born of immigrants on American soil are considered a burden.

If we want to support life, we have to create a society that truly values families. Not just families with money, or families lucky enough to have a full time home maker. Day care, health insurance, living wages, public education, go hand in hand with birthing babies.

Until I feel that the US government is willing to assume the responsibility of raising children, I don't want it to have any part in the decision to bear them.

In my humble opinion, that's by far one of the smartest things anyone has ever posted in this forum.

Thanks.

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silera

11-07-2004, 08:23 PM

I don't know how to respond unless I've been called a pinko commie hippie cunt.

Thank you?

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A.J.

11-08-2004, 03:06 AM

Until I feel that the US government is willing to assume the responsibility of raising children, I don't want it to have any part in the decision to bear them.

So how do you feel about social programs like WIC? Isn't that the government assuming a responsibility in raising children?

I'm not instigating -- just asking.

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NewYorkDragons80

11-08-2004, 04:13 AM

Decisions to Have an Abortion (U.S.)
25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing.
21.3% of women cannot afford a baby.
14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child.
12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy.)
10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career.
7.9% of women want no (more) children.
3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health.
2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.
The "statistics" hinge on the honesty of the participants. Notice nobody said "As a means of birth control."

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silera

11-08-2004, 05:11 AM

I think statistics are statistics. I see that they show that there are equally different reasons for women having abortions. As far as abortions used for birth control, it simply isn't the issue for me, the outcome is. Simly put, to prevent abortions, we should focus on sex education and birth control, not elimination of an option.

The US spent 5 billion nationally in 2004 to fund the WIC program. 82 Billion went to the combined "Education, training, employment and social services." It spent 383 billion on the Defense budget. 52 billion on Veterans, (cost of previous wars). 161 Billion on interest, (accumulated from previous wars). The tax cuts cost an estimated 240 billion in lost revenue this year alone.

The immediate response is, throwing money at a problem won't fix it. Why doesn't that apply when we're throwing money at war?

The WIC program, head start and the child health insurance program are great. They're the least funded programs in the nation though and usually the first to get the axe on a Federal Level when the time comes to deal budget deficits. States like New York and California, are usually able to pick up the tab to keep them running, but poorer states cannot. The first people to lose services are the ones that need it most.

It's just a fucking mess.

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angrymissy

11-08-2004, 05:25 AM

The Government cannot fully help someone who can not afford to raise a child raise it. There is minimal help, but as a single parent it's hard.

8 Years ago, my mother died. My family had stuggled to support us on two incomes, and now my father was left to raise 3 kids on his own. My father had worked his ass off and paid into the system for well over 25 years. He then lost his job, and was left with absolutely nothing except for Social Security death benefit payments for my brother (approx. $600/mo), and a $8,000 funeral debt. My sister and I were over 18 at this point and on our own (my brother is 8 years younger than me).

I told him, "Go apply for welfare and food stamps! they won't turn you down, you've paid into the system!". Well they denied my father for everything except the NY state provided health insurance for my brother, becuase apparently $600 a month was too much money a month to be eligible for welfare, food stamps, Section 8, etc. If my father didn't have my Grandparents to move in with, and my sister and I to help out, I have no idea what he would have done.

I lost all faith in idea of Government helping people at that point. My father did his best to raise us, but after going through growing up poor, I will not have children until I can afford to. I will not bring a child into the world that I cannot take care of to the fullest. That's my choice. I have the utmost respect for anyone who could tough it out like my parents did, but I couldn't do it.

I should deserve to have that choice.

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This message was edited by angrymissy on 11-8-04 @ 9:53 AM

DJEvelEd

11-08-2004, 06:23 AM

I should deserve to have that choice.

If your choice meant keeping your fetus alive in a test tube afterwards, that's fine. Just do something with the fetuses instead of throwing them in a plastic bag depriving them of life. People will have to pay more to abort their child, but isn't saving a life worth the extra cost? My test tube idea can be implemented TOMORROW and it's a win win for everyone. The woman will be rid of the unwanted child, the child will be grown in a test tube and have a chance at life. Adoption services and the military would most likely get these kids in the future, but it's sure better than your Mom throwing you in the garbage.

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TheMojoPin

11-08-2004, 07:09 AM

Adoption services and the military

Ed just showed us how to avoid the draft.

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silera

11-08-2004, 07:13 AM

Your idea sucks.

Let's harvest abortions, nurture them to life, give the wanted children to adoptive parents and whatever is left over can serve in our military.

Yeah, that's valueing life.

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DJEvelEd

11-08-2004, 07:56 AM

My "sucky" idea is better than your :TAG 'EM AND BAG 'EM" reality.
What sucks about it? That you can't kill a fetus? Do you enjoy it or something?

I happen to be anti-war but if the military is the only place that will accept them then that is a better reality than death.

Silera: "No Dumbass, if I can't have my baby, NO ONE CAN!!!"

EvelEd: "Ok Ok it was just an idea"

Silera: "Die baby DIE"

Baby: *squish*

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This message was edited by DJEvelEd on 11-8-04 @ 12:02 PM

IrishAlkey

11-08-2004, 08:08 AM

What sucks about it? That you can't kill a fetus? Do you enjoy it or something?

After reading the portion of her reply that Mojo quoted and seeing you reply with this fucking retarded statement, you should be banned from the forum.

I hear there's apartments for rent in the red states.

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IrishAlkey

11-08-2004, 08:11 AM

And your edit speaks volumes for your intellect...

Get ready to lock this bitch up.

I'm feeling saucy.

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DJEvelEd

11-08-2004, 08:13 AM

My idea would allow Silera to abort all the fetuses she wants, but those fetuses would be saved. How could anyone be against that? If your throwing away a child, why should you care what's done with it afterwards? Ban me for making you feel bad about killing your kid? You should feel bad (as I do).
If you don't want to hear the other side of the issue, don't read the "Roe vs. Wade overturn" thread because the opposing opinions you may hear will upset you.

[Edit]
And your edit speaks volumes for your intellect...
Gee Thanks...IQ 135 & counting...

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This message was edited by DJEvelEd on 11-8-04 @ 12:20 PM