What happened to us?

[Marist Mike]

I don't know about you guys but for me it's hard to fathom. This Saturday is the third anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. My first thought is wow, it's been three years since it happened. It's hard to believe. I also thought about how we as a country changed that day. In the days after the attack, petty things didn't matter. People were actually considerate to each other and started to realize what's really important in our lives. Everyone had an American flag outside their windows. We weren't white Americans, black Americans, Asian Americans, etc. We were just Americans Then it kind of went back to the way it was.

People became rude again and the flags went back inside for the most part and now almost three years later our country is pretty much divided. We're divided over who we want to be our commander in chief for the next four years at least. We're divided over how we should handle our foreign policy and how we should go about fighting the war. We're divided over things like how to get the economy back to normal, how to get our children a better education, whether to let homosexuals marry, who to cut taxes to and who not to, etc. I just wish we could unite again no matter what our political and social beliefs are, and . The thing that makes it real sad was that it took a tragedy like what happened on 9/11 to unite us as Americans. I just wish we could be like that everyday no matter who we are or what we believe.

I know most of you are probably thinking wow this post is pointless but I just really needed to get something off of my chest. Thanks for taking the time to read anyway.

<img src=http://www.osirusonline.com/maristmike.gif>
Jim McGreevey LOOOOOVES the cock!!!!!!!

[canofsoup15]

I can't believe it has ONLY been three years. I thought that what can only be called 'hype' surrounding it would last longer, but sadly it seems like we have almost forgotten the incident like a bump in the road.

Although that Patriotic Ra-Ra crap was good and everyone was peaceful, it can only last so long. Unfortunately the driving force behind that Patriotic wave was "invade the middle eastern countries responsible" and with that blind-like want for invasion comes deficits and big problems that we hoped would be handled easily, unfortunately these too couldn't be handled as quickly and as easily as hoped and that's why we are in this position.

Or something.

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This message was edited by canofsoup15 on 9-4-04 @ 9:57 PM

[furie]

hype?


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[canofsoup15]

Yeah, I was looking for a better word to use but I couldn't think of anything. I don't know what to call. Just the whole aurora of the situation.

I got nothing.

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[furie]

how about outrage?


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[42nd-delay]

The attacks made everyone realize the great things we have, and the great place we live in. But the attacks were a shocking and unsettling event that made us (and still makes us) feel vunerable. So in terms of us coming together, I think it was motivated both by love of country and by fear.

In terms of our current disagreements - our lives are in danger, and once the initial shock wore off, not everyone is in agreement with how to keep us safe. And at least, if there's going to be a debate in an election year, it's about a real issue.

Regarding the flag thing - did you think it would last?

------------------------------
"42nd-delay is the only person who's making sense." - Ron, 3-12-02

[canofsoup15]

Damnit. I can't believe I didn't think of that.

Also, the feeling of disbelief that this could happen seems to have left the building.

But outrage is good.

Nice job, Furie.

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I got the glass, I got the steel. I got the love to hate.
</font><font color=red> All I need is your head on stake.</font></marquee><Font Color = White>

[monsterone]

black people feel a lil safer from the po since arabs started taking the heat.

<center><img border=1 src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01"><br></center>

<center>

<font color="gray" size="1">do you know what "nemesis" means? a righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent.
personified in this case by an 'orrible cunt... me.
</font>

</center>
<font color= "red" size="6">

[Yerdaddy]

I don't quite understand the expectations for unity in this country. As vague as the term is, I don't think you can really sustain an argument that we've every been "unified" or even that we should want unity. Nazis were unified, with their fancy goose-stepping pants and Blue Oyster Bar leather hats and all. They tolerated no division and got unity. We had protesters in WWII and we largely tolerated it. In the end, our society was stronger despite its differences.

But if you read the Federalist Papers you'll see that unity was never a part of the game plan. The idea that Hamilton, Madison and Jay was that there are differences among people in all societies. And that the idea of liberty was not to eliminate those differences, but to create a political system in which the opposing groups and ideas could air differences and compete for a say in the governing of the country without one group coming to dominate and suppress the ideas of the others. There was no expectation that we would all see things the same way. What they sought was what was later termed the "marketplace of ideas" which is essentially a neverending open dialogue between Americans about everything.

What we lack is civility. We can respect each other without having to agree. I've had that with people, even on the board here. But, generally, and since the aftermath of 9-11, I think what we've lost is civility.

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Fuck it from behind.

[TheMojoPin]

Variety is American.

One mindset is not variety.

I disagree with people over political issues, but in the end I still see them as "Americans." USUALLY *wink-wink* I'm not any better or anything than them. We just don't agree on certain issues. But outside that, we're generally decent human beings that could probably get along if we sat down for a drink at the bar.

So that makes me feel better.

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1979 << I love my drug buddy... >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[canofsoup15]

What we lack is civility. We can respect each other without having to agree. I've had that with people, even on the board here. But, generally, and since the aftermath of 9-11, I think what we've lost is civility.


I think we lost civility a long while before that. I think that 9/11 provided a temporary change OF civility (when people seemed to all agree that what we needed to do was stop everything and 'heal'/'invade some shit'. But now that the civility has fallen away it is back to the way it was before but now there are even more people interested in politics, but not so into it that they actually no the facts, therefore they just spew any knowledge they have filling in the gaps between with things they want to hear.

Oh yeah, and I hope I have remained civil. Lord knows I love "dat' shit!"

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This message was edited by canofsoup15 on 9-4-04 @ 11:32 PM

[Mike Teacher]

I thought that what can only be called 'hype'


I know what you meant, and it wasn't hype.

having said that, I see 9/11 Hyped constantly. It sounds crass and rude, but I really dont think every town needs a Memorial. For every memorial I've seen, there's the articles on the artist, and the people who fund it, and all of this stuff, and part of it really bugs me, I dont know why, but between that and the fucking commemerative shit I see every single weekend at flea markets, all this Bootleg NYPD and FDNY stuff, not a cent of which goes to either.

They sell these little quasi-crystal cubes with the twin towers etched inside. One of those franklin mint type places sold a Commemorative Model of the WTC. I have the ad still; it appalled me so much I scanned it, and i'll put it up here later, coz it's not that old. Less then a year.

There are neighborhoods around here wih widows and widowers who Dont want Memorials. They Dont want to Remember. They want to move on. Some want to forget.

The image replaced the Challenger as our photo of Modern Distater, the Worst. That is understandable, that no one can get away from, and I can deal with that. But this commemorative shit and, excuse me, some really un-needed memorials in some towns; built by self-serving people who had nothing to do with 9/11 but 'just want to help'. Ugh.

=

Distrust the Helpful. At best, they are a Nuisance. At worst, they will ensnare you in their spiderweb.

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[canofsoup15]

I know what you mean.
There are those that lost loved ones and they just want to move on.

And there are those that want to continue this patriotic bullshit and are ignorant to what's actually happening.

And then there are the greedy scum-of-the-earth bastards who want to milk this for all it's worth, and the ones that buy into it.

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This message was edited by canofsoup15 on 9-4-04 @ 11:49 PM

[Mike Teacher]

Here's one case where the word Hype fits perfect.

http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/wtc2

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[monsterone]

Here's one case where the word Hype fits perfect.

http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/wtc2

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tastless yes, but the have contributed to the familes effected. how much vs how much they made, we'll never know.

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<center>

<font color="gray" size="1">do you know what "nemesis" means? a righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent.
personified in this case by an 'orrible cunt... me.
</font>

</center>
<font color= "red" size="6">

[TheMojoPin]

On the show recently, Ron was wondering about those sort of "deals"...how something is automatically OK as long as that "proceeds go to charity" caveat is plastered on it. That can mean ANYTHING, and usually is the barest minimum...

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1979 << I love my drug buddy... >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Doomstone]

What happened to us?


I think one thing is a lot of people have become pussified because they're afraid of terrorism, and the pussified people are basically willing to accept whatever they're told and whatever consequences may come as long as they're told it's necessary in order to fight terrorism. Other prople realize terrorism has been a problem since before Reagan pulled the troops out of harm's way following the Marine barracks bombing in Lebanon.

Then there's also the ones who would cry when another dollar is taken from their paycheck so that the poor might be able to see a doctor once in a while.

Yeah, a dollar. Like multi-millionaires post at rf.net...

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[mikeyboy]

What happened to us?


We grew apart. Get over it and stop calling me.

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[Mike Teacher]

'...and it's affiliates...' to me = some of the big companies that are also owned by the Giant Corporation Conglomerate we're all owned by each gave a bit.

=

My friend Tom R is in Middletown, NJ. They got blocks upon blocks where there's a widow, or widower; the Cantor Fitzgerald people. I mean he once just went down the list of his church parish friends, and... And he tells me some of these people cant go into a 7-11 without seeing the WTC in *something*, it can be as subtle as one of those 'proceeds goes to...' things. Even if it's 100% good and true, the imge is still there.

And coming up to 9/11/04, how many times am I gonna turn a page in a newspaper or see a 10 second TV ad that just says 'We Remember' in the center, but always manages to name the bank at the bottom. Or whatever; again, I dont understand myself, but this really, on some level, comes as really fucking self-serving, pardon my french.

One of Tom's friends says he cant forget, and doesnt need reminding, as he's still deailing with explaining to his kids Where Mommy Went on that day. That guy cant drive places where he can see the NY skyline. A little tough, if you know where Middletown is...

And how many more like that must there be that we all dont know about. This guy Tom is a guy I played guitar with, not like were real close, and the stories, its surreal, and they dont even scratch the surface.

What happened to us? Maybe in the big picture, the really big picture of what human nature[s] is/are, not a damned thing.



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This message was edited by Mike Teacher on 9-5-04 @ 1:02 AM

[shamus mcfitzy]

I don't know, I never really took the patriotism of post-9/11 seriously. You can't expect that to last really when it was so obviously based on one sudden event. I took a lot of that as just plain offensive. I guess people have the right to "grieve" whatever way they want, but I guess a lot of things people were doing (i would see people buying flags by the box full--swear to god, people were buying boxes of flags at a Target in Queens around that time) just seemed too little too late (not the best way to put it, but it captures my sentiment)

Usually i'd say Doomstone's crazy but I do think people in general should think how patriotic it is to overlook those less fortunate and spend money on stupid shit.

[badorties]

it's just human nature ...

we care a lot when the shit goes down, do our best to help out, go overboard in misplased enthusiasm, saturate the airwaves with countless angles of the same story and then we finally grow apathetic to the whole thing ...


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[KC2OSO]

...applying more good syrup to bad pancakes

http://www.njmikec.com/Fester1.jpg

[Mike Teacher]

it's just human nature ...


Agreed, but I find myself asking: Is there One human nature? Looking at the diversity of people on the planet, and the spectrum of what we do [from Mother Theresa to Ed Gein and all in between], I wonder...

=

One measure of human nature might be how we care for our own species. On the global scale; I put it on the edge of failure. With Hope. But hope is irrational, and there are things greater then this.

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[canofsoup15]

it's just human nature ...


Agreed, but I find myself asking: Is there One human nature? Looking at the diversity of people on the planet, and the spectrum of what we do [from Mother Theresa to Ed Gein and all in between], I wonder...

=

One measure of human nature might be how we care for our own species. On the global scale; I put it on the edge of failure. With Hope. But hope is irrational, and there are things greater then this.


Well, first we have to check out the definition of human nature, because if we do not know the formal definition of it, then how can we delve deeper into the subject?

Here is the definition:

The sum of qualities and traits shared by all humans.

So, from this we have to determine what the traits and qualities are. I see these traits as sorts of abilities (the ability to love, the ability to hate) and the carrying out of those things (showing disdain showing affections.) These are things that the saints can do, and things that the serial killers can do, so by that right, Ed Gein and Mother Teresa have the same human nature. Therefore it has to be personal decisions that lead them to do things. That's where I think the making of a human lies, in the decision making process and morals.

This can go for awhile (I love talking about this stuff.)

Press A to continue conversation.

Press B to end conversation.

:)



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[NewYorkDragons80]

I do think people in general should think how patriotic it is to overlook those less fortunate and spend money on stupid shit.
Fuck that. I do visit VA hospitals and volunteer for Habitat for Humanity and give to the poor. I just don't like Uncle Sam making somebody else pick up the slack for Jobless McPenisofthemonth

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This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 9-6-04 @ 11:00 PM

[Meatball]

I think that what the original poster and yerdaddy speak of, still exists in this country and has for many decades. We were living that very life, one of liberty and democracy. Sure there was a surge of patriatism after 9-11 which in part was a reaction to the stress of the situation. You tackle stress with action - patriotic action. It didnt last, but thats ok. We still are a free, society, and the greatest nation on earth.
We were forced to start asking a thousand questions on 9-11, but the questions and answers shoulndt be about our lives and how we live it or should be living it, but focused on the perpetrators.

All these posts seem to skip right over that, wether its to forget, or memorialize the tragedy,
I want to take the focus off of the US and put it where it belongs - on radical fundamentalism.
Accross the globe that is what has caused the most pain and suffering of our modern times.

So its been 3 years since 9-11. Are WE any different now then we were then? Not really. We just are painfully aware of these people who want us dead.
Enough introspection - we are the same country today as we were 50 yrs ago. Same ideals. Good ideals.
Its these Islamic radicals that are to be analyzed and focused on.

I agree with yerdaddy, just because our country is divided right now, it will continue free and as an example to the rest of the world of democracy, and no amount of terrorism will take that from us.



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[Mike Teacher]

I want to take the focus off of the US and put it where it belongs - on radical fundamentalism. Accross the globe that is what has caused the most pain and suffering of our modern times.



Preach it. Well Said. We lost a thousand years to the dark ages, which were neither dark, nor ages, but still, a huge yawning gap in our modern evolution.

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This message was edited by Mike Teacher on 9-7-04 @ 12:51 AM

[shamus mcfitzy]

Fuck that. I do visit VA hospitals and volunteer for Habitat for Humanity and give to the poor. I just don't like Uncle Sam making somebody else pick up the slack for Jobless McPenisofthemonth


i'd like to say i don't know what specifically Doomstone was referring to, and therefore if it was in reference to you Dragon, I'm not agreeing with that. I'm willing to be a realist and if you are willing to take time out of your life to help others then I really can't expect any more of you. I'm talkin' about the average yokel who puts a flag on their car, their house, their desk at work, and their fridge and then on the way to the supermarket to get Twinkies they step over a homeless guy because they need to get home and eat said Twinkies while they watch a rerun of Friends.

[NewYorkDragons80]

therefore if it was in reference to you Dragon, I'm not agreeing with that.
It wasn't directly in reference to me, but to the people who feel the government shouldn't get involved in things like health care, and I am one of them.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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[HBox]

Well, the health care system in this country is going from fucked to [size=4] HOLY FUCKED!!!!!![size=2] and it's gonna take more than tort reform and medical savings accounts to save it. We spend more on health care than any other nation on earth by far and still somehow cannot insure 45 million. This is a problem in need of a drastic solution.

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

[canofsoup15]

So...noone reads my post, eh?

Alright then.

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[Mike Teacher]

more than tort reform and


You coulda stopped there for me, absolutely.

But for me, and this will definately come off as me sounding smart, but it shouldnt. Having said that, HBox, in my opinion, the more severe problem is that most Americans have no idea what a tort is, much less the issue of tort reform.

We're such a clueless nation. And yeah I sound like a smartass, but fucking A, a person should be able to look at a blank globe and point out where the middle east is. I'll take India! Close enough! A billion peeps off but hey! at least youre not pointing at Thailand.

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This message was edited by Mike Teacher on 9-7-04 @ 11:25 AM

[earthseawitch]

I figured that I would put in my two cents on this topic...

It is unfortunate that we are a nation that is individually egocentrical (not to say that other nations are not) and that we have the ability to look to taking care of our own, and choose not to. But instead we try to look outside of our country to "help" others.

As a wise man once stated (and this is paraphrasing)...if we wish to change or help others, it is in ourselves that we must first do this.

We cannot make better other countries until we make ourselves better. And this is something that none of us ever seem to learn or understand....

[NewYorkDragons80]

As a wise man once stated (and this is paraphrasing)...if we wish to change or help others, it is in ourselves that we must first do this
I agree, but it should be up to the individual whether they want to help others.

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[HBox]

At this point, I do think National Helathcare would save many people a lot of money. As the system is now, people are paying for other people's health care and they don't even know it. If you have insurance and you use it at hospitals, you are not only paying for your own care, you're being overcharged to pay for all the free care the hospital gives out through emergency services. Your tax dollars are paying to provide Medicaid to the impoverished or Medicare to the disabled. We have a horrible system that leaves out everyone who earns enough to not live in poverty but not enough to have benefits. And lets not even mention drug prices, upon which tort reform would little to no effect at all.

And nobody mentions the money we could save. What about the poor people who can't afford to go the doctor, so they wait until the get very sick and go to the emergency room and end up with hospital stays or expensive treatments which the rest of us pay for. If we simply payed for a doctor's visit in the first place, everything could have been cheaper and the guy could continue to work and generate tax revenue and keep the economy moving and all that stuff.

Really, what it all comes down to is a question: Will we allow poor people to die because they can't afford treatment? Because that would save all of us with insurance a crap load of money. Right now we let them drift towards the edge and swoop them up at the last possible second. There's no easy answer.

Anyway, sorry for derailing this thread. What was it about again?

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