More Bush Flip Flopping!!!

[curtoid]

Make up yer mind already...! (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20040831/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_bush_3)

I can't respond to this story any better than Washington Post media critic, Howard Kurtz (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/nation/columns/kurtzhoward/), who said:

If John Kerry had said of the war on terror, "I don't think you can win it"--as the president told Matt Lauer--wouldn't the conservative media machine be going absolutely nuts? Of course we all know what Bush meant--that the fight will go on and on--but the incident demonstrates that the Democrats lack a left-wing noise machine with anything approaching the same volume.

Uh-huh!


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"Don't believe everything you read on message boards." - RB



This message was edited by curtoid on 8-31-04 @ 5:29 PM

[FollowThisLogic]

Go find a full transcript >edit: of the Lauer interview< before you make yourself look like a fool with such threads.

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This message was edited by FollowThisLogic on 8-31-04 @ 8:19 PM

[Mike Teacher]

this was needed. Really! [eyeroll]

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[HBox]

Lauer: "Have you ever thought, President Bush, about what the first four years of your presidency might have been like were it not for 9/11?"

President Bush: "No, I haven't because I haven't had that luxury. Well, I haven't had the luxury because it was defined by 9/11. You know every day, as I tell the people, every day I wake up thinking about how better to protect America. It's just the nature of the presidency right now--one of those moments in history that is a defining moment for all of us. I really haven't sat down and had that luxury of thinking what it'd be like."

Lauer: "You said to me a second ago, one of the things you'll lay out in your vision for the next four years is how to go about winning the war on terror. That phrase strikes me a little bit. Do you really think we can win this war on terror in the next four years?"

President Bush: "I have never said we can win it in four years."

Lauer: "So I'm just saying can we win it? Do you see that?"

President Bush: "I don't think you can win it. But I think you can create conditions so that those who use terror as a tool are less acceptable in parts of the world -- let's put it that way. I have a two pronged strategy. On the one hand is to find them before they hurt us, and that's necessary. I'm telling you it's necessary. The country must never yield, must never show weakness [and] must continue to lead. To find al-Qaida affiliates who are hiding around the world and . harm us and bring `em to justice -- we're doing a good job of it. I mean we are dismantling the al-Qaidaas we knew it. The long-term strategy is to spread freedom and liberty, and that's really kind of an interesting debate. You know there's some who say well, `You know certain people can't self govern and accept, you know, a former democracy.' I just strongly disagree with that. I believe that democracy can take hold in parts of the world that are now non-democratic and I think it's necessary in order to defeat the ideologies of hate. History has shown that it can work, that spreading liberty does work. After all, Japan is our close ally and my dad fought against the Japanese. Prime Minister Koizumi, is one of the closest collaborators I have in working to make the world a more peaceful place."

I don't know what your point is. If it's the four years, it's pretty clear they had moved beyond that.

And you know what? What he said was absolutely correct. You can't stop terrorism. It's a tool. It will always be used. But what he said flies in the face of everything he's said before. If Kerry said something like this, Republicans would be lining up around the block of every political talk show to lambaste him, call him weak, belittle him because of his "nuance." Bush has fostered this oversimplified, black and white mindset. Now he can move away from it with a free pass? Please.

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[curtoid]

Ahhhhh...the humorless patrol is in full farce...

Go find a full transcript >edit: of the Lauer interview< before you make yourself look like a fool with such threads.

Isn't there an O&A Message Board going un-moderated?

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"Don't believe everything you read on message boards." - RB

[Yerdaddy]

<a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/15/attack/main509096.shtml" target="_blank">Bush Opposes 9/11 Query Panel</a>

<a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/24/attack/main523156.shtml" target="_blank">Bush Backs Independent 9-11 Probe</a>


The point is that politics is a complicated business. Politics encompasses virtually every aspect of human activity. Any politician can be subject to this kind of manipulative campaign tactic. When Kerry is called a "flip-flopper" it really is meaningless. Same as Bush. But it serves preconcieved notions about him, and we're too lazy about our democracy to check the facts, so it works. It's embarrassing.

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Fuck it from behind.

[FUNKMAN]

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[FollowThisLogic]

Isn't there an O&A Message Board going un-moderated?
Yeah, most of them are. That's why they suck. Come to think of it, message boards just suck altogether.

To answer the "well you're posting on one" before it comes..... I post out of boredom and a desire to throw some intelligence into crappy misleading liberal bullshit..... which, on this chock-full-o'-lib snooze-fest, is kinda pointless.... but if I can make just ONE person think a little, rather than just take the spoon-feeding from the libs, I've done the world a little piece of good.

<center><img src="http://www.followthislogic.com/stuff/rf-screw.jpg" alt="Just say 'Screw all ya'll.' It'll work. Trust me.">
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Sure, reply to a post with just a picture. You fuckers killed teh funney long ago.</center>

[HBox]

misleading liberal bullshit

There was nothing misleading about this. He said what he said. It was not in any kind of misleading context.

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[Yerdaddy]

but if I can make just ONE person think a little

I think you're retarded. So I guess your work here is done.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[curtoid]

And you know what? What he said was absolutely correct. You can't stop terrorism. It's a tool. It will always be used.

I agree. It's something I've been saying since day one of what I always considered the vague "war on terrorism." Those in charge now were in charge during the cold war, and they realized then the biggest mistake was actually winning.

I post out of boredom and a desire to throw some intelligence into crappy misleading liberal bullshit.....

Well, as a wise man once said - only boring people get bored.

which, on this chock-full-o'-lib snooze-fest, is kinda pointless....

So, instead of actually reading the context of what was written, and defending the accusation that if it had been John Kerry that had said one day that the war was unwinnable, and the next day saying we are winning it - that he would have been pounced on by the right - you completly deflect criticism with a dismissive over-use of the word "lib" or "liberal" three times in an 84 word reply of true pointlessness, as if that is some sort of mace that will shame us all.

but if I can make just ONE person think a little, rather than just take the spoon-feeding from the libs, I've done the world a little piece of good.

Ahhh, yes...you are right up there with Gandi, Mother Teresa, Siddhartha Gautama, Saint Mesrop the Teacher and William F. Buckley. You don't just bring people to the light, you bring the light to the people.

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"Don't believe everything you read on message boards." - RB

[Dudeman]

Bush's statement last week that he "miscalculated" the war was much more offensive then this statement. Especially considering the number of military officials that told him he wasn't going to be prepared for a post-sadam mission. He was more worried about declaring victory than calculating exactly what it would take to get stability.


-I'll log off now, and listen to your
response.-

[jeffdwright2001]

I post out of boredom

Always a good foundation for high quality posts.

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"It is not best to use our morals weekdays, it gets them out of repair for Sunday." - Mark Twain 1898

Thanks to Reefy & M1 for my sigs!!

[Doctor Manhattan]

As much as I hate W I have to defend him on this one.
If you hear the way he said
"I don't think you can <i><b>win</b></i> it(The war on terrorism)"
it's very obvious he was trying to say it won't be a simple win like we would win a normal war.
W just can't speak well, he's not flip flopping on this issue.

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This message was edited by SKW on 9-1-04 @ 1:16 PM

[Reephdweller]

I'm startin' to suspect a few of the folks on this board don't like George W. I don't know what it is. Just a hunch at this point really.

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[Mike Teacher]

Looks by the dancing Prez, Flip-Flop is into Hip-Hop. :gasp:

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[Dudeman]

I'm startin' to suspect a few of the folks on this board don't like George W. I don't know what it is. Just a hunch at this point really.


well, i think keithybobeefy likes W, and thats gotta count for something.


-I'll log off now, and listen to your
response.-

[TheMojoPin]

As much as I hate W I have to defend him on this one.
If you hear the way he said
"I don't think you can <i><b>win</b></i> it(The war on terrorism)"
it's very obvious he was trying to say it won't be a simple win like we would win a normal war.
W just can't speak well, he's not flip flopping on this issue.

<a href="http://members.cox.net/cousinken/itsabouttime.mp3"><img src="http://members.cox.net/nicksporsche/bushchen.jpg" border=0></a>

This message was edited by SKW on 9-1-04 @ 1:16 PM

Yeah, pretty much. This is as much of a stretch as a lot of the faux-"flip flop" threads Kerry has gotten here. Context can do wonders when it comes to "proving" a point.

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1979 << I love my drug buddy... >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[NewYorkDragons80]

This is as much of a stretch as a lot of the faux-"flip flop" threads Kerry has gotten here. Context can do wonders when it comes to "proving" a point.
Well that depends. The $87 billion quote has been taken out of context, but he voted for the war, then called himself the anti-war candidate. We all saw the video; he has taken multiple and erratic stances on Iraq in the past decade which have been as different as night and day. Kerry has absolutely flip-flopped on a number of critical issues. In some cases, "Flip-flops" have been stretched, but in a sizable number of them, they have been complete policy changes.

Also, this would be a chance for the Air America people to take the high ground and say, "It's pretty obvious what the president was trying to say." It would be a great chance for them to point out that Republicans harp on the $87 billion soundbite, but they are interested in presenting the facts. Alas, they continue to prove that they are John Kerry's marionettes.

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"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 9-1-04 @ 7:31 PM

[HBox]

then called himself the anti-war candidate.

I guess you missed Chris Matthews bitching out Republicans for using his show in such a misleading way.

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[TheMojoPin]

but he voted for the war, then called himself the anti-war candidate. We all saw the video; he has taken multiple and erratic stances on Iraq in the past decade which have been as different as night and day. Kerry has absolutely flip-flopped on a number of critical issues. In some cases, "Flip-flops" have been stretched, but in a sizable number of them, they have been complete policy changes.

But where does the "changing one's mind" line end?

Look at it this way...over a decade ago, I would have fully supported an invasion of Iraq after driving them out of Kuwait. Whereas now I didn't support the current invasion/war at all. It could be summed up to say, 13 years ago, I was pro-war with Iraq, now I'm anti-war with Iraq. Isn't that a "complete" policy change if it's over-simplified, as most of the "flip-flop" charges have been?

Besides, it's incredibly hypocritical of the GOP if that's going to be their main avenue of attack when they're hyping Zell Miller and his own "personal policy change" from the left to the right. Hell, based on the hype, his speech is even more important than anything the VP will say tonight.

Miller changed his mind. He feels the current president is best for the country RIGHT NOW, no matter what he supported in the PAST. Can't anyone else do the same when it comes to THEIR politics?

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1979 << I love my drug buddy... >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 9-1-04 @ 9:47 PM

[CruelCircus]

Isn't there an O&A Message Board going un-moderated?

Pardon me, curtoid. I don't think we've met.
Can I ask when you were put in charge of who can and can't post here?



<br>
<img src="http://pw2.netcom.com/~jjmace/gifs/cruel.jpg"><br><br>
Democrats will sacrifice the Nation for the sake of the Election.
Republicans will sacrifice the Election for the sake of the Nation.

Bush-Cheney 2004.

[curtoid]

More proof - Republicans do not have a sense of humor...

Pardon me, curtoid. I don't think we've met.
Can I ask when you were put in charge of who can and can't post here?

Pardon me, cruel circus, but how the fuck was my question a demand of where people should post implying some sort of king of the board?

I was simply wondering if he was confused, lost or something.

But to be fair and answer your nutty little question - Freakshow put me in charge. He said no one would mind.

Now stop posting in my thread!





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"Don't believe everything you read on message boards." - RB

[NewYorkDragons80]

But where does the "changing one's mind" line end?
Around the 3rd or 4th change of heart. Kerry is on his fifth at least.

Whereas now I didn't support the current invasion/war at all.
So you don't even subscribe to a "you break it, you bought it" approach?
Besides, it's incredibly hypocritical of the GOP if that's going to be their main avenue of attack when they're hyping Zell Miller and his own "personal policy change" from the left to the right.
But Miller hasn't drastically changed views. He's always been an outspoken pro-defense, pro-state's right, pro-defense, anti-tax, pro-life Democrat.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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[TheMojoPin]

Around the 3rd or 4th change of heart. Kerry is on his fifth at least.

And? Is there a limit? Look, I'm not saying the guy knows his shit, but is there a quota for changing one's mind? I don't want a static politcian. We have one now. That's called being bullheaded and stubborn.

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1979 << I love my drug buddy... >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[42nd-delay]

Might as well stir up the pot a little more...


President Bush: Flip-Flopper-In-Chief (http://www.americanprogressaction.org/site/pp.asp?c=klLWJcP7H&b=118263)

------------------------------
"42nd-delay is the only person who's making sense." - Ron, 3-12-02

[curtoid]

But Miller hasn't drastically changed views.

No.

He just lost his mind after 9/11 - like Dennis Miller, Stephen Baldwin and all of the "security Moms."

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"Don't believe everything you read on message boards." - RB

[CruelCircus]

More proof - Republicans do not have a sense of humor...
More proof - Democrats can't do anything politely... :-(

Pardon me, cruel circus, but how the fuck was my question a demand of where people should post implying some sort of king of the board?
Hm, yes. Because none of us are capable of grasping the concept of innuendo. "Implying some sort of king of the board." You said it yourself. We all know what you meant, don't be obtuse.

Now stop posting in my thread!
Oops.



<br>
<img src="http://pw2.netcom.com/~jjmace/gifs/cruel.jpg"><br><br>
Democrats will sacrifice the Nation for the sake of the Election.
Republicans will sacrifice the Election for the sake of the Nation.

Bush-Cheney 2004.

[Yerdaddy]

Do you wish we lived in the day where you could challenge a person to a duel?

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Fuck it from behind.

[Mike Teacher]

Yerdaddy I just did a spit-take.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

He just lost his mind after 9/11 - like Dennis Miller, Stephen Baldwin and all of the "security Moms."
Dennis Miller is another one who has had consistent views before and after 9/11. He was always a right-leaning moderate. He was McCain supporting, Gore-hating, Reform party-praising host when he was on HBO.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
<img src=http://members.aol.com/cityhawk80/images/nydragonssig.bmp?mtbrand=AOL_US>

[Yerdaddy]

I've always been a Dennis Miller fan, and he used to be a slightly left-leaning, point-out-the-stupidity-of-both-sides, gadfly. Now he's Zell Miller with a couple of drinks in him. He sacraficed funny for a steady paycheck from Bush-good, Kerry-evil, and all-Muslims-are-terrorists jokes. He's a hack now. How many times can I hear that "I don't know what makes these [insert: Arabs, Palestinians, Iraqis] tick except for the bombs strapped to their backs" joke?

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Fuck it from behind.

[TheMojoPin]

He just lost his mind after 9/11 - like Dennis Miller, Stephen Baldwin and all of the "security Moms."
Dennis Miller is another one who has had consistent views before and after 9/11. He was always a right-leaning moderate. He was McCain supporting, Gore-hating, Reform party-praising host when he was on HBO.

Yeah, but it's completely inconsistent with his comedy routines/rants in the 90's and 80's.

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1979 << I love my drug buddy... >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[DarkHippie]

Do you wish we lived in the day where you could challenge a person to a duel?
will Zell Miller challenge Bugs Bunny next?

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[NewYorkDragons80]

I remember Miller being very supportive of the US during the first Gulf War. What issues was he liberal on in the 80's/90's?

As for Kerry, the definition of flip-flopping is subjective, so we'll have to agree to disagree on what constitutes it. He can change his mind to his heart's desire, but at some point I should be allowed to call it something other than a change of policy.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
<img src=http://members.aol.com/cityhawk80/images/nydragonssig.bmp?mtbrand=AOL_US>

[sighborgh]

liberal bullshit. What does that even mean anymore? Is having just gone over 1000 dead in Iraq a reason to celebrate? Does that mean that conservatives are just so strong...or just mind bogglingly stupid? Once again, don't know if Kerry can be the answer or not, but just like his dad, it'll be an honor to vote against Bush. No matter who is running against him. They're wrong, get over it. this was a horrible mistake. They lied. they knew it. what more proof do you need?

[TheMojoPin]

Is having just gone over 1000 dead in Iraq a reason to celebrate?

993 Americans.

1,120 Coalition Forces total.

6,916 have been wounded by "hostile actions."

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << I love my drug buddy... >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 9-6-04 @ 1:41 PM

[mdr55]

There was an article in the NY Daily News yesterday that we're closer to catching Osama Bin Laden. Too bad we couldn't catch him first then Saddam second. But what do I know about priorities?

Hafa Adai

[HBox]

Another Bush flip flop. First he wants 2 debates. Then he agrees to 3! (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6049364/)

First debate is next Wednesday. We're really getting into it now.

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