The Patriot Act: How Has It Hurt/Affected YOU? [Archive]

ChickenHawk

08-02-2004, 01:59 PM

My point obviously ISN'T that if it doesn't affect you it doesn't matter (but I will commend you on a solid attempt to make me sound like a selfish, cold-blooded, heartless person.) My point is that I've yet to see any of these potential disasters of the Patriot Act actually affect a real live person. I want to hear something from someone, a personal story, that will at least make this outrage REAL in my mind. Something that could make this FEAR of the Patriot Act LEGITIMATE fear.

When injustice is clear and abound, you hear stories about it from real people. Your neighbor down the hall was affected, your co-worker's sister was affected, your uncle was affected. Someone always knows someone. And this word on the street is what fills hearts with TRUE outrage and passion toward something.

It just seems to me that the hatred and outrage for the Patriot Act is hollow and fabricated because it's not fueled by any tangible occurances.

I've heard rhetoric about it, but I haven't heard a real story from a real person once. Not from my family, not from the news, not from ALTERNATIVE news, not from work, or school, not from white friends, black friends, or Middle Eastern friends. I read/hear about what COULD happen, but it's yet to become a reality for anyone with a name.

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This message was edited by ChickenHawk on 8-2-04 @ 6:13 PM

LiquidCourage

08-02-2004, 02:02 PM

It hasn't personally affected me at all.

However, Yerdaddy had a great post there.

sighborgh

08-02-2004, 02:10 PM

[quote]
I've heard rhetoric about it, but I haven't heard a real story from a real person once. Not from my family, not from the news, not from ALTERNATIVE news, not from white friends, black friends, or Middle Eastern friends. I read/hear about what COULD happen, but it's yet to become a reality for anyone with a name.
quote]

Are you f'ing kidding me??!! Why does something have to happen first for it to be a bad ill-conceived piece of shit legislation designed to take privacy away from Americans? Are you mildly retarded or something? I don't have to shoot myself in the face with a gun to know that it could kill me.

With that said, here you go. You wanted personal? Here you go. Because of an alleged insurance scam the FBI was allowed to come in and shut down a $300 million dollar company with no real evidence. It was a nationwide temp agency employing 10,000 people. I won't name names or the company. How do I know? I am related to one of the higher ranking people in the company that now no longer exists. This person is being and has been grilled by the FBI every week because prosecutors are scum bags and they're trying to find something on someone who has never broken a law in their life. Now shut the F up! Ever read 1984? If not, I suggest you do. The similarities are frightening. Go learn something. F-tard.

mikeyboy

08-02-2004, 02:11 PM

Cut the personal attacks, sighborgh.

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This message was edited by mikeyboy on 8-2-04 @ 6:12 PM

furie

08-02-2004, 02:15 PM

how was that covered under the patriot act?
The FBI have raided companies, siezing property since the RECO act, not patriot.

prosecutors are scumbags? so? again what does that have to do with the patriot act? USDA's don't enforce the patriot act. they have nothing to do with it.

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This message was edited by furie on 8-2-04 @ 6:16 PM

ChickenHawk

08-02-2004, 02:21 PM

It's okay Mikeyboy. His post was one of the worst attempts at intellectual debate I've ever seen in my life, so it's all good.

Insurance scam? ...And that has what to do with national security/terrorism?

I'm pretty sure your story has ZERO to do with the Patriot Act, seeing as how the Patriot Act does not cover insurance fraud.

Oh, and you've read 1984? I'm impressed beyond words. I read that book 3 times, and the first time it was in 8TH GRADE.

Take a walk.

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JerryTaker

08-02-2004, 02:25 PM

I think a lot of people who have been affected by the Patriot act don't even know it. For instance, anyone who's had to come up with "6 points" of ID at a NJ DMV.

In fact, NJ 101.5 has a show once a month called "Ask the DMV" and many of the problems and inconvieniences people have come from some aspect of the Patriot act.

 
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Yerdaddy

08-02-2004, 02:28 PM

However, Yerdaddy had a great post there.

Yerdaddy: The pill you took is part of a trace program. It's designed to disrupt your input/output carrier signal so we can pinpoint your location.
LiquidCourage: What does that mean?
Mojo: It means buckle your seatbelt, Dorothy, 'cause Kansas is going bye-bye.

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I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid... you're afraid of us. You're afraid of change. I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone, and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world without you. A world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries. A world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you. In the meantime, I'll be at Hooters.

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ChickenHawk

08-02-2004, 02:28 PM

There's a difference between an "inconvenience" and a violation of our civil rights.

There's nothing unlawful or unconstitutional about having to show 6 forms of ID at the DMV.

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This message was edited by ChickenHawk on 8-2-04 @ 6:29 PM

JerryTaker

08-02-2004, 02:34 PM

Tell someone who lives and works in NJ that they can't legally drive thier car, and it's a heck of a lot more than a simple "inconvenience" That could mean loss of your income, which leads to loss of your home.

 
[The Patriot Act has decreed this sig indecent, and has put JerryTaker under suspicion]

furie

08-02-2004, 02:35 PM

the reason why the patriot act has provisions on driver's license or any state issued ID(and it has a pervasive effect on state id issuance) is to bring all the states to a someone similar standard. NJ has historically been the worst state when ID's are concerned.

My biggest beef with the PA is the sharing of info on private citizens with foreign government agencies such as INTERPOL.

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This message was edited by furie on 8-2-04 @ 6:36 PM

ChickenHawk

08-02-2004, 02:36 PM

Your stretching things JUST a bit now. You just made a jump from 'not having 6 forms of ID at the DMV' to 'being unemployed and homeless'.

Get your 6 forms of ID and shut the hell up. It's not a big deal.

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This message was edited by ChickenHawk on 8-2-04 @ 6:38 PM

HBox

08-02-2004, 02:38 PM

You know, i could search for hours to find an example of what Chickenhawk wants, and I may or may not find it. But, do you really want to wait until innocent people are being rounded up and locked away somewhere indefinitely with no access to an attorney before we start caring? Because that CAN happen under the Patriot Act. And I don't want to wait until we are under a real ruthless, corrupt administration that will abuse it at will. It will be too late at that point.

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JerryTaker

08-02-2004, 02:40 PM

Your stretching things JUST a bit now. Get your 6 forms of ID and shut the hell up. It's not a big deal.

To some people, it's a huge deal. and to be fair, it's 6"points" of ID, not 6 "forms." Certain forms of ID are worth a certain number of points.

This isn't an issue to me personally, but I have what people call a sense of "empathy," which is something people are sorely lacking in these days.

 
[The Patriot Act has decreed this sig indecent, and has put JerryTaker under suspicion]

ChickenHawk

08-02-2004, 02:45 PM

But HBox, that's just what every paranoid, alarmist, doomsday, end-of-the-world windbag wants you to believe. I'm so sick of hearing it. "Do you want to WAIT until it gets THIS BAD?"

It's NOT! It's NOT going to. Are you people mad? People have said that every DAY about every THING since the begining of time. That's called "pessimism."

Now, don't get the wrong idea. I didn't start this thread to DEFEND the Patriot Act. I never said it was GOOD. I'm just saying, the panic and chaotic predictions need to simmer down. It's getting blown way out of proportion.

And Jerry, I have empathy too... for people who exist.
And I've never met anyone who ended up on the street because of the DMV.

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This message was edited by ChickenHawk on 8-2-04 @ 6:47 PM

sighborgh

08-02-2004, 02:47 PM

[quote]
Insurance scam? ...And that has what to do with national security/terrorism?

Everything. Sorry you don't understand what you're talking about but I'm not terribly surprised. Should it ever happen to you or someone you care about, your story will be much different. right now, you're speaking from a place of zero knowledge.

This message was edited by sighborgh on 8-2-04 @ 6:49 PM

JerryTaker

08-02-2004, 02:48 PM

That's called "pessimism."

It's also why the insurance industry exists

 
[The Patriot Act has decreed this sig indecent, and has put JerryTaker under suspicion]

Se7en

08-02-2004, 02:48 PM

But, do you really want to wait until innocent people are being rounded up and locked away somewhere indefinitely with no access to an attorney before we start caring? Because that CAN happen under the Patriot Act.

I believe that ChickenHawk's point is that after......what? A good two years or so?......since the act passed, and that HASN'T happened yet.

If something COULD happen, but there is no evidence that something as bad as that HAS happened yet, at what point does the reality of it all prove the fears to be essentially unwarranted?

My life hasn't been affected - negatively - by the Patriot Act. But then again, I'm not Muslim, so maybe someone should ask them.

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furie

08-02-2004, 02:49 PM

[quote]
Insurance scam? ...And that has what to do with national security/terrorism?
/quote]

Everything. Sorry you don't understand what you're talking about but I'm not terribly surprised. Should it ever happen to you or someone you care about, your story will be much different. right now, you're speaking from a place of zero knowledge.

This message was edited by sighborgh on 8-2-04 @ 6:48 PM

then perhaps you'd like to comment on my post. I do speak from personal knowledge.

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furie

08-02-2004, 02:50 PM

I believe that ChickenHawk's point is that after......what? A good two years or so?......since the act passed, and that HASN'T happened yet.

well, actually yes it has.

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ChickenHawk

08-02-2004, 02:51 PM

It's also why the insurance industry exists
No, because breaking your leg or getting colon cancer is a realistic possibility.

George Bush sending stormtroopers into your home to arrest you and throw you in an internment camp ISN'T.

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This message was edited by ChickenHawk on 8-2-04 @ 6:54 PM

JerryTaker

08-02-2004, 02:52 PM

well, actually yes it has.

somebody's holding out on us....

 
[The Patriot Act has decreed this sig indecent, and has put JerryTaker under suspicion]

furie

08-02-2004, 02:54 PM

yes, I am.

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DarkHippie

08-02-2004, 02:55 PM

Well, for one thing, I don't take out books from the library anymore (I don't like the idea of the goverment tracing my reading habits).

When I signed my apartment lease, I had to do a whole legal song and dance even worse than usual(honestly I don't remember what it was about, but I remember that eachof the sheets began with "due to the USAPatriot Act . . .)

The powers bestowed by the Act are ones where you don't know if they are being used on you or not. I can only assume that the FBI has some sort of file on me, or has my computer under surveilence, but they sure as hell aren't gonna let me know.

So how would I know how much the USAPatriot Act is affecting me?

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JerryTaker

08-02-2004, 02:55 PM

George Bush sending stormtroopers into your home to arrest you and throw you in an internment camp ISN'T.

So are you actually looking for testimony from a board menmber saying, "Yes I was personally put away, not charged, not given a reason for detention or a lawyer, and I've been there ever since...."

"....yet here I am posting about it on a messageboard"

huh? that's some neocon logic there....

 
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Justice4all

08-02-2004, 02:56 PM

Well the Patriot Act requires me to copy a photo ID for information on the person who is getting the loan with us. (I work for a mortgage company)
They have to produce the Photo ID with Birthdate, Place of Issuance and Experation Date on it. Now how that hurts ME I have no idea. If I were to get a loan producing a photo ID only proves I am who I say I am, and if I am NOT that person and being a phony (ie. terrorist or con artist) it makes it easier to track me down.

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HBox

08-02-2004, 02:58 PM

Just because a government hasn't abused a power yet doesn't mean it should have it in the first place. If someone can point out to me that the Patriot Act explicitly DOES NOT allow for the example I presented, fine. Then it really is alarmist paranoia. But how do you know it won't get that bad?

I don't think George Bush is gonna send stormtroopers to my door. That doesn't mean he should have the power to do so. And we don't know who's gonna be President in the future.

I mean, by the logic you guys are using, why don't we let the government do whatever they like, and when they start abusing those powers, THEN we'll worry, then we'll do something about it.

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ChickenHawk

08-02-2004, 03:00 PM

So are you actually looking for testimony from a board menmber saying, "Yes I was personally put away, not charged, not given a reason for detention or a lawyer, and I've been there ever since...."

"....yet here I am posting about it on a messageboard"

huh? that's some neocon logic there....
Please read my above posts. Thank you.

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whoopsy

08-02-2004, 03:28 PM

i had to pay a "Patriot act fee" the last time I rented a car (from either rent-a-wreck or enterprise). It was negligible, (under $10) but it did affect me.

that being said, i think that this thread was created to try and prove some point, but I've always thought judging the justness of a law through the question "how does it affect me" is just dumb.

- whoopsy -

ChickenHawk

08-02-2004, 03:41 PM

but I've always thought judging the justness of a law through the question "how does it affect me" is just dumb.
I don't get it. This is getting frustrating. I AM SPEAKING ENGLISH. Why are so many people having trouble understanding what I'm saying? For the last fucking time...
I am not determining the validity or value of a law by asking how it affects ME alone. In fact, I aleady said that the Patriot Act is not a particularly good act. I AM, however, asking a large GROUP of people (this message board) how it has affected YOU! I want to know how/if it has affected fellow citizens! The people around me! That means NOT JUST ME.

So how you came to this conclusion is beyond me!

That isn't just misinterpretation, that's schizophrenia. You're hearing/reading things that aren't even remotely existent.

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This message was edited by ChickenHawk on 8-2-04 @ 7:46 PM

sighborgh

08-02-2004, 04:21 PM

of course, it's everyone else. typical, you get examples to answer your question and they're not good enough. you a stone cold Bushie or what?

whoopsy

08-02-2004, 04:33 PM

- you called arguments against the Patriot act rhetoric

- you allude to those who vigorously attack the bill as paranoid, alarmist, doomsday, end-of-the-world windbags (while i call them patriots, coincidentally)

I thought you're point was: Opponents of the Patriot act overreacted. Your proof is that there has been no evidence of abuse. I think one thing doesn't have a whole lot to do with the other. I don't think that conclusion is schizophrenic. now, please relax, you're scaring the children.

- whoopsy -

furie

08-02-2004, 04:34 PM

damn you safari!

This message was edited by furie on 8-2-04 @ 8:34 PM

Dudeman

08-02-2004, 04:54 PM

let's change "innocent until proven guilty" to "innocent until proven guilty, unless you know, you look and them and they just look that way, you know." like ronnie says about scott peterson- just look at him.

-I'll log off now, and listen to your
response.-

angrymissy

08-02-2004, 05:05 PM

I had to take a class on the Patriot Act at my last job (major credit card company). It absolutely disgusted me to find out what the government can do without a supoena now. All they had to do was call our department with a credit card number, and we had to give them a whole bunch of information. Prior to the Patriot Act, we could not do that without a suponea.

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Late2party

08-02-2004, 05:24 PM

...breaking your leg or getting colon cancer is a realistic possibility.

George Bush sending stormtroopers into your home to arrest you and throw you in an internment camp ISN'T.

Right. That was Janet Reno in Waco. And Miami.

http://www.ap.org/pages/history/pulitzer_2001.jpg

furie

08-02-2004, 05:30 PM

and ruby ridge.

and people are scared of ashcroft...

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reeshy

08-02-2004, 06:17 PM

Hasn't effected me at all..My phone's not tapped, I get regular mail delivery, I travel everyday into Penn Station and see the cops and National Guard doing their duty....nothing has happened to me ...keep it up!!!!

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TheMojoPin

08-02-2004, 08:23 PM

Hasn't done anything to me at all.

My Dad's been to Gitmo eight times since 9/11 to help deal with the prisoners there, and his biggest concern is that there ARE people (Not the majority) locked up there without any real legal recourse, and it's eventually going to come back and bite us in the ass and end up hindering our effectiveness to fight the assholes who SHOULD be locked up, because the current abuses will eventually become SO "noticeable" that we'll probably end up with more investigative limits than BEFORE the Patriot Act.

There have been quite a few people detained without any kind of trial or hearing since 9/11 not only under the sanctions afforded the Patriot Act, but also the military tribunal resolutions and allowances Bush and co. squeezed through after the attacks in 2001.

http://www.sevenstories.com/Resources/Titles/58322100538410/Images/58322100538410L.gif

But hey, it's "alternative press," so who cares? The "executions" part refers to what's now ALLOWED (But not necessarily happened). But the problem with many of these arrests is that they now can be "off the record," and there's typically no record of a lot of these people having been detained in the first place.

[quote]In "Secret Trial and Executions", Barbara Olshansky , Assistant Legal Director for the Center for Constitutional Rights, examines the Military Order signed by the Bush Regime on November 13th 2001, that effectively suspended constitutional rights for all non citizens living in the United States and subjected them to arrest, secret trials, and secret executions. The direct implication of this order, according to Olshansky is that if you live in the United States and are not an American citizen, the President, or the Secretary of Defense can order you to be arrested, tried, and executed with no public accountability or explanation other than stating that you are a terrorist. While the Military Order contains official language regarding the humane treatment of prisoners, Olshanky correctly points out that with the removal of constitutional protection and the complete lack of government accountability, humane treatment and a fair trial depend exclusively on the good will of the arresting authorities. Furthermore, the Military Order's grounds for arresting, trying and executing non-citizens is so overly broad, according to Olshansky, that the government can effectively perform these actions at will without having to account for themselves.

While American citizens might be tempted to dismiss the implications of the Military Order as not really pertaining to them, Olshansky points out that this isn't really true. Since the birth of the nation, all residents of the United States regardless of their citizenship status enjoyed the same constitutional protection. By eliminating the constitutional protection that has been enjoyed by all non-citizens including the ancestors of most American citizens, Olshansky argues that the Bush Regime is effectively destroying a 200 year-old judicial practice that is the cornerstone of American government, and is replacing it with arbitrary, despotic authority.

Olshansky also points out that contrary to the President's claims, the Bush regime does not possess the legal authority to arbitrarily arrest, try, and execute non-citizens as terrorists. Contrary to the President's first legal claim, neither the constitution nor any federal statute authorize him to create military courts to try all suspected terrorists against the United States. Contrary to the President's second claim, while the Congressional Joint Resolution does authorize the Use of Military Force and permits the president to activate reserves and send troops to Afghanistan, it does not authorize him to set up military courts and to try any captives resulting from the use of force. It also does not authorize him to randomly arrest, try, and kill non-citizens. And contrary to the President's third claim, while sections 831 and 836 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) delineate the rules by which the Preside

CruelCircus

08-02-2004, 10:11 PM

Well the Patriot Act requires me to copy a photo ID for information on the person who is getting the loan with us. (I work for a mortgage company)
You mean to tell me that your company didn't require this before the Patriot Act? Man I wish I had gotten my loan from you...
When I got my mortagage in 2000 I had to give an ID, and I'm pretty sure that's S.O.P. How else are they going to be able to check your credit and make sure you're who you say you are?

I thought you're point was: Opponents of the Patriot act overreacted.

I think his new point is probably "Opponents of the Patiot Act can't read."
He asked a very specific question, and very few people answered that question. There are plenty of threads that dealt with the big-picture and hypotheticals of the Patriot Act. This one wasn't supposed to be.

 
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This message was edited by CruelCircus on 8-3-04 @ 2:17 AM

TheMojoPin

08-02-2004, 10:25 PM

But what could the point possibly be with asking how members of this board are specifically affected by the Patriot Act, except to kinda sideways debunk the notion that it's "bad," and the people that think that way? The implication is that, "well, since YOU haven't been busted by it, it's not that bad. Quit worrying." I've said it before, perception is a bitch on the internet, and quite often very wrong, but you can't fault people for reading itno things.

Look at it this way...if somebody came into the AIDS thread I started, and responded with, "well, how has AIDS impacted you specifically," and that's it, it's pretty clear the intention would be to defuse the notion that AIDS is as epic a problem as I was trying to get across.

Has the Patriot Act affected me personally? Like I said, very clearly, at the start of my post, not at all.

Does that make it, in my eyes, any less of a potential problem (Or unecessary)? No. Not in the slightest.

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ChickenHawk

08-02-2004, 10:30 PM

Yeah, but I know there are detainees. But something tells me, I dunno, it's just a hunch... But I have a FEELING that those people didn't just END UP there. I am willing to bet that those people weren't just random law-abiding citizens who were randomly pulled out of their homes. The government will have a damn good reason before they detain someone. The reason I don't know anyone and you, and everyone else here doesn't know anyone who's been detained is because most everyday, model-citizen, average Joe's don't hang out with people who are building bombs in their basement.

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TheMojoPin

08-02-2004, 10:39 PM

That's true, CH, but I'm just relaying what my Dad's biggest gripe has been EVERY TIME he's come back from Cuba. With some of the prisoners, literally the ONLY thing they're guilty of is knowing someone who is a "real suspect." It's essentially "guilt by proximity." And like I said, that kind of "stretching" could end up LIMITING our investigative and detaining powers to even less than they were before the Patriot Act.

Besides, we did this before with the Native Americans, then the Japanese, and now the Arabs. How many ethnic groups can this sort of action go through before it's unacceptable? I know this sounds about as "bleeding heart" as it gets, but sometimes when history repeats itself time and time again and seemingly NOTHING is learned, it gets a little frustrating.

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ChickenHawk

08-02-2004, 10:39 PM

You bring up a good point about your AIDS thread, but I can tell you why this situation is different. AIDS does affect people around us. In fact, I've known of 3 people, both directly or through friends of friends, who have been killed or are dying of this disease. It's also quite obvious that AIDS is a REAL threat. Millions have died of it. It's out there. Especially from what we see going on in Africa. The situation there, as you and everyone else knows, is horrific. While the problem isn't as big here in America as it is overseas, it is obvious that, whether I am directly affected by it or not, it's something that WARRANTS panic and action.

I'll say it again, I do not support the Patriot Act! Mainly because of many of the little details in it that give the Government creepy little rights that I personally feel are invasive. But it's the astounding overreaction and fabrication of imaginary disaster that people are spewing constantly that drives me nuts. People are up in arms about something that is in all likelyhood NOT a realistic threat.

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TheMojoPin

08-02-2004, 11:19 PM

I brought up the AIDS thing because I'm actually the opposite of you...when I lived in Thailand, I certainly saw the effects of that disease running near unchecked, and worked charity hours in some of the AIDS hopsitals, but I'm so goddam fortunate that NOBODY who is in my family or I consider a good friend has ended up with it.

And I get what you're saying about the Patriot Act. I feel the same way about Bush-bashers, how they talk like he's the most evil, awful man who's ever held political office. I disagree with the guy a lot, but he's nowhere near "anyone but him is better"-level.

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El Mudo

08-03-2004, 01:18 AM

The Patriot Act: How Has It Hurt/Affected YOU?

About as much as the federal defecit has...

Zero.....

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CruelCircus

08-03-2004, 02:38 AM

A.J.

08-03-2004, 05:25 AM

The Patriot Act: How Has It Hurt/Affected YOU?

As much as racial profiling has.

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Yerdaddy

08-03-2004, 09:32 AM

The Patriot Act: How Has It Hurt/Affected YOU?

As much as racial profiling has.

Good answer, you cracker-ass cracker!

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TheMojoPin

08-03-2004, 09:47 AM

Mojo, it doesn't really matter what the point was. The guy wanted to start a thread. No one is forced to participate in it.
And your AIDS thread analogy fails because he didn't derail someone else's thread, he started the thing. If anything, you guys did the "AIDS thread" defusing that you'd be worried about to him!

Actually, all things considered, this is probably the least derailed thread in the history of the board, seeing as everyone is at least still talking about Patriot Act.

The argument still seems to be, "you're not saying what I want to hear, so then it's all moot."

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blakjeezis

08-03-2004, 10:41 AM

I like sweet potatoes. And yams. Wait . . . aren't they the same thing? Why, I just don't know anymore?

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TooCute

08-03-2004, 07:06 PM

I like sweet potatoes. And yams. Wait . . . aren't they the same thing? Why, I just don't know anymore.
No.

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monsterone

08-03-2004, 09:38 PM

ok hawk, how has the patriot act benefited me? it's not like there are headlines praising it by picking up terrorist pockets in the us. at most, the terrorists picked up are far outside of our borders. you would think if it was sucessful we'd be reading about it day to day.

yet we go to threat codes every few months, so i guess i don't feel any safer, yet, at will, my civil rights can be infringed upon for any given reason.

maybe i'm another conspiracy theorist, but i don't see how giving the govt these abilities has made the nation any safer. what is your point?

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This message was edited by monsterone on 8-4-04 @ 1:41 AM

TheMojoPin

08-03-2004, 09:45 PM

m1 is thinking along the right lines. And even those suspected of terrorist activites picked up within our borders are often "covered" by pre-existing laws and statutes, or the military tribunal ruling I brought up. In short, it's thus far proven itself to be totally unecessary.

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ChickenHawk

08-03-2004, 09:46 PM

Unnecessary, yes. I'd agree.

But a disasterous threat to our way of life? Bit of a stretch.

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TheMojoPin

08-03-2004, 09:59 PM

That I fully agree with. It's nowhere near that bad at this point. I disagree with it simply on the basis it's a prime example of big government getting bigger, and that's something I ALWAYS am opposed to. It bugs me even more that it came up under this administration, since keeping the federal government from bloating even more has always been a rallying cry of the Repbulican party that I've always stood behind 100%.

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monsterone

08-03-2004, 10:14 PM

and how has it effected me; check my pay check, it has to be funded somehow. and have you taken a flight lately, ie. fees and inconveinece.

i don't feel the intelligence agencies need to go this far to gather intelligence. a better resolution: revamp the information infa-structure.

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reeshy

08-03-2004, 10:16 PM

You know, reading over everyone's comments. the Patriot act may have been a knee jerk reaction to 9/11...but a necessary one. We were under attack and at war. Security had to be tightened up and some of our "ciivil" rights may have been bruised...like taking your shoes off at the airport and getting photo ID!!!!

You know what....so what!!!! WE probably stopped more terrorist attacks that we will ever know about..of course the government can't tell us about it...we are in a state of war...grow up and accept it!!!!

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monsterone

08-03-2004, 10:16 PM

But a disasterous threat to our way of life? Bit of a stretch.

the problem people have is the possibilty of it's ramifications.

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ChickenHawk

08-03-2004, 10:17 PM

Infrastructure.

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monsterone

08-03-2004, 10:26 PM

WE probably stopped more terrorist attacks that we will ever know about..of course the government can't tell us about it...we are in a state of war...grow up and accept it!!!!

you think the govt would promote it as a reason to keep it. the state of ny, among others have petitions to remove it.

it over steps the bounds of the constitution, which is fundementally wrong. i see a failure in intelligence before i see a need to tread on civil rights.

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TheMojoPin

08-03-2004, 11:20 PM

Security had to be tightened up and some of our "ciivil" rights may have been bruised...like taking your shoes off at the airport and getting photo ID!!!!

Those have nothing to do with The Patriot Act. Security measures like that were already well-covered by our pre-existing laws and security structures.

The issue of the Patriot Act, as brought up in books like the recent "Imperial Hubris," is whether or not we are actually in a state of war domestically. One attack, quite frankly, is not "war." And what is the legal definition of this "war," if it is such a thing? It's not like WW2. It's not like the war on drugs. It's not like the war on poverty. You can't just tag it with the label of "war" and that makes everything hunky-dory, or provides instant clarification. "War" is not some kind of legal blank-check that allows a government to do whatever it wants. There's a definite ambiguity as to what the hell we are in right now, and it's nowhere near being clarified.

Like m1 said, the Patriot Act overcomplicates an already flawed and misorganized intelligence system. Like I said, it inflates an already bloated federal government, giving it powers far beyond what the Constitution. We've been in wars before, domestically, with much more domestic violence and higher death tolls, yet something like The Patriot Act wasn't required before. Why now? And it can't just be because "this is a different kind of war." So was The Civil War and the War of 1812, and we didn't have anything like this then.

The point? The Patriot Act is wholly unecessary. We had the tools to combat domestic terrorism before. There's simply no reason The Patriot Act needs to exist, even after 9/11. It just overcomplicates an already misplanned and flawed system, as opposed to fixing the viable resources we have already.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-4-04 @ 3:28 AM

reeshy

08-03-2004, 11:34 PM

One attack, quite frankly, is not "war."
than what the fuck would you call Pearl Harbor.....or 9?11??? mojo stop...we are at war with the moslem world and liberals like you can't see it until you lose someone you know or yourself...these people want to see you and me dead...simple as that......

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reeshy

08-03-2004, 11:38 PM

The point? The Patriot Act is wholly unecessary. We had the tools to combat domestic terrorism before. There's simply no reason The Patriot Act needs to exist, even after 9/11. It just overcomplicates an already misplanned and flawed system, as opposed to fixing the viable resources we have already.

Another question...then if we had the tools...why did 9/11 happen?.....because sometimes the enemy wins at certain things!!!! we can't stop every attack

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TheMojoPin

08-04-2004, 12:47 AM

Another question...then if we had the tools...why did 9/11 happen?

Not enough cooperation, information-sharing and overlap between the agencies. Too much information spread out over too many outlets.

than what the fuck would you call Pearl Harbor.....or 9?11???

Two completely different events. One was an "official" attack by a nation (The Japanese ambassador was actually suppsoed to deliver a notice of war to US authorities right as the attack began, but the decoding of the message took too long and it was delivered hours after the fact) upon another nation, and the latter was an attack by a "floating" terrorist group made up of many people from many different nations. You can't deal with one the way you dealt with the other, and vice-versa. Even if you wanted to, it's impossible.

we are at war with the moslem world

No, we're not. If we were, we'd lose, since there's a fuckload more of them willing to kills us. YOU may think we are, but "we" are not doing any such thing, nor could we ever. A war of that scale based on theology would only end up with everyone in the world losing. In fact, odds are, there wouldn't be a world left. We ARE, however, in very dire conflict with Muslim & Arab extremists/terrorists. Is it a "war" the same as an "official" war like WW2 or WW1 or even Vietnam? No. Like I said above, even if we wanted to do so, it would be impossible to do so.

and liberals like you can't see it until you lose someone you know or yourself...

That's a low fucking blow, seriously. I knew two people killed at the Pentagon, and another two who barely escaped with their lives, so don't presume to pass judgement on my priorities when it comes to the mortality of my friends and loved ones. That's seriously fucked up.

these people want to see you and me dead...simple as that......

Well, no, they don't.

Strike that. Yes, quite a few of them do, but most of them can't do dick in regards to getting at us. The ones that CAN, like bin Laden and Al-Queda, have very specific plans and strategies for what and who they attack. The 9/11 strikes were very strategic in that they struck at our military HQ, financial center of the largest city in the country, and potential the HQ of the CIA or the seat of our Congress (depending on where the downed 4th flight was headed).

The deaths that happened that day were not just random strikes by some bunch of faceless madmen. If death tolls were the goal, they could have killed a LOT more than 3,000 people just by unleashing coordinated (But low manpower) gas attacks in the NYC subway system alone. If constant death and fear and attacks were bin Laden's true goal, he would have ordered a US version of the Palestinian intifada in Israel. Things like the Patriot Act are going to have zero effect on someone already living here legally who decides to plant a car bomb, or go on a sniping spree. Such strikes require a minimum of resources, planning and manpower. There's zero reason we wouldn't have been subjected to those (And the much-vaunted Patriot Act would essentially be powerless to do anything about it)...unless the people behind the 9/11 attacks have very specific plans and agendas in mind.

Threats like the one now, against financial centers, or talks about attempts to disrupt the election, I take VERY seriously. They fit with Al-Queda's M.O.. Talk about somebody attacking the Statue of Liberty? Sounds good in theory, but really does not fit at all with what it appears Al-Queda expects from their strikes.

If bin Laden and co. just wanted us dead, and as many of us dead as possible as quickly as possible, he would be dead NOW, and we'd have fucking known it, because he probably would have gone out with a very literal "bang." Bin Laden and co. use low-level people willing to enagage in suicide attacks for their aims...but do not follow that dogma themselves. They want results to their attacks in THIS world...not the next. And THAT'S what makes him and his

reeshy

08-04-2004, 12:53 AM

Two completely different events. One was an "official" attack by a nation (The Japanese ambassador was actually suppsoed to deliver a notice of war to US authorities right as the attack began, but the decoding of the message took too long and it was delivered hours after the fact) upon another nation, and the latter was an attack by a "floating" terrorist group made up of many people from many different nations. You can't deal with one the way you dealt with the other, and vice-versa. Even if you wanted to, it's impossible.

No it's not...an attack on our country..by whomever...is still an attack...this is war .....

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reeshy

08-04-2004, 12:54 AM

Not enough cooperation, information-sharing and overlap between the agencies. Too much information spread out over too many outlets.

do you honestly thing that this attack could have been prevented...just the year before I went to florida with my weapon on my belt and was never challenged!!!!

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This message was edited by reeshy on 8-4-04 @ 4:55 AM

reeshy

08-04-2004, 01:00 AM

No, we're not. If we were, we'd lose, since there's a fuckload more of them willing to kills us. YOU may think we are, but "we" are not doing any such thing, nor could we ever. A war of that scale based on theology would only end up with everyone in the world losing. In fact, odds are, there wouldn't be a world left. We ARE, however, in very dire conflict with Muslim & Arab extremists/terrorists. Is it a "war" the same as an "official" war like WW2 or WW1 or even Vietnam? No. Like I said above, even if we wanted to do so, it would be impossible to do so.

Have you ever had any relations with Moslems??? I have...mostof them don't like Americans and only talk about the Middle East in the most delightlfull terms....Allah is not out friend...face it!!!!

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reeshy

08-04-2004, 01:02 AM

and liberals like you can't see it until you lose someone you know or yourself..

I apologize for that one mojo...but sometimes I get carried away

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reeshy

08-04-2004, 01:03 AM

these people want to see you and me dead...simple as that...... Well, no, they don't. Strike that. Yes, quite a few of them do, but most of them can't do dick in regards to getting at us

Sorry Mojo...but that ones's moot...they got us on 9/11..enough said!!!

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This message was edited by reeshy on 8-4-04 @ 5:04 AM

TheMojoPin

08-04-2004, 01:06 AM

do you honestly thing that this attack could have been prevented...just the year before I went to florida with my weapon on my belt and was never challenged!!!!

Difficult to say. With the way our intelligence agencies were set up? No. Was the information there to prevent the attacks, once it was all gathered together after the fact? Yes. So to answer your question...yes & no. If you get a chance, read the 9/11 Commission's report. It's a great source of information regarding what we did, knew, and could have done leading up to the attacks.

No it's not...an attack on our country..by whomever...is still an attack...this is war .....

War can only be legally declared by us upon another nation, and must be approved by Congress.

All I'm saying is that the war against Japan and the "war" against terrorism are two completely different things. For one, Pearl Harbor was a military strike by an officially recognized empire against a military target. We then had a nation to declare war against. We simply do not have either of those factors with 9/11.

Yes, there are people that we need to get over 9/11. No, it's not the same as the war with Japan.

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reeshy

08-04-2004, 01:12 AM

TheMojoPin

08-04-2004, 01:15 AM

Sorry Mojo...but that ones's moot...they got us on 9/11..enough said!!!

Not "those guys!" Like I said, if they just wanted a high death toll, there would have been more attacks, and different kinds of attacks. 9/11 was a result of very specific strikes against our key financial centers and military/intelligence HQ's. The death toll, sick as it is, was a "bonus" to these animals. That's how REALLY fucked up they are. The WTC was a target twice because of WHAT it was, not because of how many people worked there.

Have you ever had any relations with Moslems???

Quite a few. I grew up overseas and went to a lot of private international schools. Makes me think the key to the Middle East is that being poor = always being pissed off, because ost of the ones I've known or know now have some decent bank, to say the least, and they seemed pleased as pie with the "Western" way of life. Hell, my first girlfriend was half-Pakistani. Senior year of high school I went out with a girl who was half-Egyptian and half-Iraqi, and she's one of the most beautiful women I've seen on this planet. The fact that she let my white-as-hell ass fuck her leads me to believe that not ALL of them want me dead.

I'm not now, nor have I ever denied that a LOT of people in the Middle East hate us. But we're simply not "at war" with all Muslims. Even if we WANTED to be, it would make things a thousand times worse than they are now. NO president is stupid enough to do such a thing. We'd end up losing.

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reeshy

08-04-2004, 01:15 AM

Difficult to say. With the way our intelligence agencies were set up? No. Was the information there to prevent the attacks, once it was all gathered together after the fact? Yes. So to answer your question...yes & no. If you get a chance, read the 9/11 Commission's report. It's a great source of information regarding what we did, knew, and could have done leading up to the attacks.

People leak through the cracks like I did...even though I was offical....it still happens all the time, security hass to be increased...Jesus Christ...I could walk out on the streets of NY right now an kill someone and get away with it...where's the security??

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reeshy

08-04-2004, 01:22 AM

Not "those guys!" Like I said, if they just wanted a high death toll, there would have been more attacks, and different kinds of attacks

Maybe there haven't been more attacks because of the Patriot Act...maybe the increased security kept these Moslem animal at bay!!!!!!!

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***EDIT*** GODDAMMIT. Sorry, reesh. I hit "EDIT" instead of "QUOTE POST," and posted my whole reply INSIDE your message. My bad.

-Mojo.

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-4-04 @ 5:43 AM

TheMojoPin

08-04-2004, 01:22 AM

War can only be legally declared by us upon another nation, and must be approved by Congress.

you've got to be kidding!!!!! I know about the legalities of war probably better than you do...but this was an act of war whether it was from a nation or an organization....what are you? a friggin' lawyer...i don't think so...it's still an act of war![/quote]

Then who are we going to war with?!?!

Al Queda? Yes, we need to take them out. No, we canNOT go to war against them. I want to, but it's impossible! They are a "floating" entity that's literally around the world! Going to war with them would be like declaring a war on an idea.

I'm probably just arguing semantics, but it's just not the same thing as the war with Japan at all. Not even close. 9/11 and Pearl Harbor are similar at a very basic level, but are wildly different when you stack the two attacks against each other.

Not "those guys!" Like I said, if they just wanted a high death toll, there would have been more attacks, and different kinds of attacks

Maybe there haven't been more attacks because of the Patriot Act...maybe the increased security kept these Moslem animal at bay!!!!!!!

How has it done that, exactly?

reeshy, you've been backing up one of my main points with your own posts...if you wanted to go out and kill someone right now, you could. If bin Laden wanted his men here to just start killing people for the sake of killing people, as you're implying, they easily could, and take a decent amount of people with them before they were taken out, and the Patriot Act couldn't do anything about it.

How can the Patriot Act possibly stop one guy who decides to build a car bomb, park it outside, say, a federal building, and blow it up? Or a guy who's going to just hide outside a stock exchange with a sniper rifle and start shooting people? How is the Patriot Act going to stop them? That just backs up my theory that bin Laden and Al-Queda are far more strategic than people want to think they are, and AREN'T just in it for the highest body count.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-4-04 @ 5:44 AM

reeshy

08-04-2004, 01:23 AM

you know, Mojo,....maybe I know a little bit more than you..I worked in NYPD intelligence for my last 7 years on the job and Moslems were our biggest target and suspects!!!

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reeshy

08-04-2004, 01:26 AM

I'm probably just arguing semantics, but it's just not the same thing as the war with Japan at all. Not even close. 9/11 and Pearl Harbor are similar at a very basic level, but are wildly different when you stack the two attacks against each other.

yes. Mojo...we are fighting with an idea...or idealogy.....want do you want to do ..lay back and let them fuck us!!!!! I say no and you're wrong.....But I still like you...for now!!!

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reeshy

08-04-2004, 01:31 AM

BTW. it's spelled Moslems...not Muslims...that's the Louis Farracon gang...and that's what they are!!!

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TheMojoPin

08-04-2004, 01:32 AM

want do you want to do ..lay back and let them fuck us!!!!

I said nothing even close to that.

I said we cannot go to war with an idea. It's impossible.

There are people we need to get. We just can't go to war with them like we went to war with Japan. That has been, and remains so, my ONLY point on this specific argument.

you know, Mojo,....maybe I know a little bit more than you..I worked in NYPD intelligence for my last 7 years on the job and Moslems were our biggest target and suspects!!!

And...?

None of that means a damn thing to the ones who were and are my friends. The Muslims YOU dealt with do not somehow cancel out the Muslims I have dealt with (Not all of which were too fond of me, but most were, or at least seemed to be).

There are Muslims that want to kill me. There are also Muslims that do not wish to kill me. One group does not somehow negate the other.

"Moslem" is just a variation of "Muslim." The primary definition of "Muslim" is "an adherent to Islam." They're the same thing.

Man, my back really hurts...and being up this early sucks. How the hell do you do it all the time?!?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-4-04 @ 5:36 AM

reeshy

08-04-2004, 01:39 AM

Man, my back really hurts...and being up this early sucks. How the hell do you do it all the time?!?

Because I'm a real man!!!!

[center]<IMG SRC=http://www.adriandenning.co.uk/pictures/waits.jpg>
[center]
[center]I know karate....voodoo too!![center]

TheMojoPin

08-04-2004, 01:41 AM

Sassy!

http://www.emotioneric.com/sassy.jpg

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

reeshy

08-04-2004, 01:41 AM

"Moslem" is just a variation of "Muslim."

It's the other way around...ask Farrekan!!!!!

[center]<IMG SRC=http://www.adriandenning.co.uk/pictures/waits.jpg>
[center]
[center]I know karate....voodoo too!![center]

TheMojoPin

08-04-2004, 01:42 AM

It's the other way around...ask Farrekan!!!!!

The only thing I'm asking him is if he wants two throat-punches or three.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

reeshy

08-04-2004, 01:46 AM

You know,,,about 12 years ago..I was on a protecive detail for him in harlem.....At least I got to go home that night!!!

[center]<IMG SRC=http://www.adriandenning.co.uk/pictures/waits.jpg>
[center]
[center]I know karate....voodoo too!![center]

TheMojoPin

08-04-2004, 01:48 AM

That guy makes Sharpton looks like a saint.

Pretty sure he had Malcolm X killed, too.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

reeshy

08-04-2004, 01:58 AM

Pretty sure he had Malcolm X killed, too.

Gee. I woulded know about that...Whoops...i read the intelligence reports...whoops..no I didn't

[center]<IMG SRC=http://www.adriandenning.co.uk/pictures/waits.jpg>
[center]
[center]I know karate....voodoo too!![center]

TheMojoPin

08-04-2004, 02:00 AM

I knows people who knows people about the thing at the place with the guy!

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

reeshy

08-04-2004, 02:05 AM

I knows people who knows people about the thing at the place with the guy!

I'm sure you do..have your peeps call my peeps. my Bruffa!!!!!!

[center]<IMG SRC=http://www.adriandenning.co.uk/pictures/waits.jpg>
[center]
[center]I know karate....voodoo too!![center]

furie

06-07-2005, 05:37 PM

<a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,158870,00.html">Senate Panel OKs Patriot Act Revisions</a> 


<img width="300" height="100" border="0" src="http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/furie1335/rfsigs/ghostrider2.jpg" />

<a href="http://fallingtowardsapotheosis.blogspot.com/">mental vomit</a>



This message was edited by furie on 6-7-05 @ 9:39 PM

JerryTaker

06-08-2005, 03:13 PM

This is all I have to say... We concluded that these tools have helped keep America safe 

 
Sweet Queen Bee, I hope it comes quickly,
I hope your thoughts don't drift to me
I'll die in here, you now are free...

high fly

06-10-2005, 11:54 AM

quote: This is all I have to say...  quote: We concluded that these tools have helped keep America safe       What's this "we" bullshit?The "Tee-Ball President makes it sound as if he and the boys all got togewther to hash this thing out before they wrote, another adventure in fantasy land by George W.     

" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

high fly

06-10-2005, 11:58 AM

"The Patriot Act: How Has It Hurt/Affected YOU?" It has hurt/affected me by taking away a fundamental right American citizens have had since the founding of the Republic.The Patriot Act makes it possible for the cops to write their own search warrant, instead of having to go before a judge and present probable cause. This issue shows what little regard the right-wingers have for the U.S. Constitution.   

" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

ChickenHawk

06-10-2005, 12:55 PM

Aw shit... THIS thread is back?

<IMG SRC="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=ChickenHawk"> HORDE KING FOREVER!!! ORACLE NEVER!!! <strike>Shock</strike> <marquee behavior=alternate>EMFA</marquee>[color=white]

Heavy

06-12-2005, 06:01 AM

I cant get a P.O Box now.

http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=JohneeWadd

A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my
nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina

HORDE KING FOREVER!!!

ORACLE NEVER!!!

Heavy

06-12-2005, 06:18 AM

I'll admit I did read past the first page but  If something COULD happen, but there is no evidence that something as bad as that HAS happened yetYou know, how would any of us know if this has happened yet?I dont think any of us believe our media is ballsy enough to follow these things and for all you know there 1,000 NYers in jail for shit right now.  Remember that guy that used to post here until 2002?  Well he's gone now, maybe he's in jail for no reason but how the hell would he ever get the word to you?

http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=JohneeWadd

A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my
nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina

HORDE KING FOREVER!!!

ORACLE NEVER!!!

Bulldogcakes

06-14-2005, 05:14 PM

http://planetsean.blogspot.com/Dirty%20Metal%20Boobs.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/Kevin2700/cakescopy.jpg

My brand spankin new site Bully Baby (http://bulldogcakes.tripod.com/index.html)

Do Siamese twins have to file seperate tax returns? Or do they file jointly?

HBox

06-14-2005, 05:18 PM

How has the Patriot Act affected me? It's indirectly responsible for this awful thread. 

http://img255.echo.cx/img255/5972/mariosig8fk.jpg

WRESTLINGFAN

02-09-2011, 07:16 AM

Only 26 Republicans voted for this.

For the teabaggers this was their chance to help bring this down , however when it comes to the bloated defense budget and this they will never budge. Cause 9/11 changed everything right?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theticket/20110209/ts_yblog_theticket/patriot-act-extension-fails-in-house

furie

02-09-2011, 05:08 PM

Patriot Act Extensions Rejected By House In Bipartisan Vote (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/08/house-rejects-extensions-patriot-act_n_820554.html)

WASHINGTON — The House on Tuesday failed to extend the life of three surveillance tools that are key to the nation's post-Sept. 11 anti-terror law, a slipup for the new Republican leadership that miscalculated the level of opposition.

The House voted 277-148 to keep the three provisions of the USA Patriot Act on the books until Dec. 8. But Republicans brought up the bill under a special expedited procedure requiring a two-thirds majority, and the vote was seven short of reaching that level.

The Republicans, who took over the House last month, lost 26 of their own members, adding to the 122 Democrats who voted against it. Supporters say the three measures are vital to preventing another terrorist attack, but critics say they infringe on civil liberties. They appealed to the antipathy that newer and more conservative Republicans hold for big government invasions of individual privacy.

WRESTLINGFAN

02-13-2011, 07:35 PM

I'll quote our future president Barack Obama:

"If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandmother. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It's that fundamental belief-I am my brother's keeper, I am my sisters' keeper-that makes this country work. It's what allows us to pursue our individual dreams, yet still come together as a single American family. "E pluribus unum." Out of many, one."

-I'll log off now, and listen to your
response.-

You were right about then Sen. Obama becoming President.

What a difference a few years make

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/13/opinion/13sun1.html