Christian afterlife question. [Archive]

blakjeezis

08-02-2004, 09:53 AM

I thought of this while at a Catholic funeral, but I'm failry sure it's a common belief across all Christian religions; most of them anyway.

During the service the priest is saying things about the deceased being called to heaven and her soul being raised up to Jesus. But then, he also says things about Jesus returning at the End of Days and calling all his children and raising them from the dead. So my question is this, when you die, does your soul go right to heaven and come back to your body at the End of Days when Jesus will resurrect you to live on Earth again? Does your soul hang out in your body, for however long, waiting for the End of Days to come and get called up and then you get to go to heaven? Is it only the good people that are still alive at the End of Days that Jesus calls to him, everyone else who's already dead are waiting in heaven having already been called? I love religious minutia, and would really like a legitimate answer to this.

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grlNIN

08-02-2004, 10:04 AM

Thessalonians 4: 13-16 "For if we believe that Jesus died, and rose again, even so them who have slept through Jesus, God will bring with him. For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them, who have slept. For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice or the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead, who are in Christ, shall rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet Christ in the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord." (Douay-Rheims Bible, 1883).

found here (http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/dalston/687/rapture.htm)

hope that helps

 
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Furtherman

08-02-2004, 10:06 AM

The answer lies not in a book that was written by man.

Who knows what happens? Chances are, nothing, and then you won't have to worry about it.

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blakjeezis

08-02-2004, 10:11 AM

Who knows what happens? Chances are, nothing, and then you won't have to worry about it.

I love people who raise their anti-religious flag at any opportunity. I'm not worried about it, or looking for comfort. I just like to learn about differing religious beliefs. Is that okay? People are allowed to discuss them without the naysayers shouting from the steeple (pun intended) that it's all bullshit.

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TheMojoPin

08-02-2004, 10:22 AM

What about Purgatory?

Is there even a point to having it when "the end" comes? It seems kind of redundant to have a halfway point after you've already destroyed the world.

Hell(!), Purgatory seems redundant NOW. Personally, if there is such a thing, it IS Earth. If we can't "prove ourselves" during our time on this planet, what's the point of hanging around in Limbo for a few thousand years? Either you put up or shut up while you're breathing.

But then again, I believe in reincarnation.

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Furtherman

08-02-2004, 10:28 AM

I love people who raise their anti-religious flag at any opportunity.

Show me where I raised an anti-religious flag. I just said that chances are, nothing happens. Am I to be smited for this?

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A.J.

08-02-2004, 10:33 AM

So my question is this, when you die, does your soul go right to heaven and come back to your body at the End of Days when Jesus will resurrect you to live on Earth again? Does your soul hang out in your body, for however long, waiting for the End of Days to come and get called up and then you get to go to heaven? Is it only the good people that are still alive at the End of Days that Jesus calls to him, everyone else who's already dead are waiting in heaven having already been called?

If I remember my Catholic school indoctrination, I believe it's something along the lines of the Limbo/Purgatory idea that Mojo mentioned. The body is no longer important after death ("Ashes to ashes, dust to dust") so I believe the soul "waits" for final judgement before entering the Kingdom of God. I imagine the wait would seem long to the living but for the dead time isn't a factor so the "wait" would seem brief.

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grlNIN

08-02-2004, 10:40 AM

Hell(!), Purgatory seems redundant NOW. Personally, if there is such a thing, it IS Earth. If we can't "prove ourselves" during our time on this planet, what's the point of hanging around in Limbo for a few thousand years? Either you put up or shut up while you're breathing.

But then again, I believe in reincarnation.

Well, they say to avoid Purgatory in the next life we are forced into purgatory on earth., where reparations & penance are/should be given for the sins we have created here.

 
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Aggie

08-02-2004, 10:48 AM

First off, not all Christian denominations believe in Purgatory, I think that is just Catholicism. I personally don't believe in it and don't know where it is talked about biblically, but then again, interpretations can be shaped to fit your argument.

To answer your question BJ (from what I understand), when a Christian dies their soul is what goes to heaven upon death. The body is useless once the soul is gone. (Which is why I don't care what they do with me after I'm gone.) After He returns (the Rapture), the bodies will be resurrected and any other believers who alive will be taken from Earth as well.

Hence, the 7 years of Tribulation on earth BEFORE heaven is brought down to earth. People still alive during the Tribulation can still profess belief in God and have a chance to change their mind but have to endure the 7 signs of the Apocalypse. I don't know if that helped but that's how I was taught.

However Revelation is very symbolic so there is a lot of debate about the details because in all reality we don't know for sure. That's where FAITH comes in to play.

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This message was edited by Aggie on 8-2-04 @ 2:49 PM

badorties

08-02-2004, 10:49 AM

while i have little interest on the existence (or lack of) of a soul, or anything supernatural ...

i'm always intrigued by positing tangible properties to ethereal entities: god having a gender or race; timeframes for creation and/or the 'physical' location of a soul ...

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FUNKMAN

08-02-2004, 10:50 AM

looks like NIN knew and provided the bible's answer...

I wish this one Jehova(sp?) Witness friend i have posted, that guy could answer any question i had with a writing in the bible... of course it will be how they percieve what the message is, but i have to give credit to those who thoroughly read the bible and openly attempt to help others...

not that it stops me from sending them away when they come to the door... i'm a sinning SOB...

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This message was edited by FUNKMAN on 8-2-04 @ 2:51 PM

A.J.

08-02-2004, 10:56 AM

The body is useless once the soul is gone. (Which is why I don't care what they do with me after I'm gone.)

Can I have it? ;)

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Aggie

08-02-2004, 10:57 AM

Can I have it?

I know you're not THAT lonely AJ! :p

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Yerdaddy

08-02-2004, 11:09 AM

Can I have it?

I know you're not THAT lonely AJ! :p

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I am! DIBS!!

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fluffernutter

08-02-2004, 04:02 PM

I just always believed that you die and your soul goes to Heaven. Unless of course The Lord comes before then. It will happen so quick qhichever happens first that I really just don't worry and let my faith get me through. I have been comforted in recent years by the one verse that states "Do not worry about tomorrow for tomorrow has worries of it's own". It does amaze me however how there are so many different sects of Christianity and how there are so many different theories on what happens when you die.

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This message was edited by fluffernutter on 8-2-04 @ 8:02 PM

sr71blackbird

08-02-2004, 04:24 PM

Imagine the guy who dies the day before Jesus comes back and resurrects everyone? He will be in heaven one day, and then bam! back in the body. Meanwhile, some guy that died 2000 years ago has been living the good life up in heaven all this time. Its unfair!
I wonder if when you get to heaven if the people that annoyed you all your life and who died before you did will be there and pester you there too? I mean, isnt it their heaven too? What if my idea of heaven is a huge open place and heaven turns out to be packed like sardines? If part of what you enjoyed in your life is to be a bit of a joker, what if that is not tolerated in heaven? If you have been a bastard all your life and you end up in hell, arent you really in the kind of place you want to be in? If your in hell and burning up for eternity, and since youll realise after a while that whatever the devil does to you isnt going to "kill you" at some point, wouldnt you just start to enjoy the fire? I mean, how bad can it get? Your dead!

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Sunrisa

08-02-2004, 04:27 PM

when you die, if you belive the jesus is your personal savior, you go to be with God in his house and see His beautiful face. this is even if you have sinned because if you love God , his mercy alone will save you. all you need do is accept him as your saviour. this is the baptist belief. i am recently born again which has changed me entirely. the rapture is when god comes on earth and takes us all up to heave, ( the believers) and tribulation is hell on earth. here revelation is not a story but what will happen to those who have fallen to the devils trap of sin.
but again you ahve the chance to save yourself by accepting him as your saviour.

raised catholic, you could only go if you were really sorry for your sins. pennence and the need to be with god. you would have to face everything you did and it would be decided if you were worthy to go be with God. purgatory is an uncomfortable place where you have not been completely lost to the devil and his hate. God wants you to feel sorry and want to be close to him. your soul goes right to god at death after judgement.
at least that is what i remember. id be happpy to learn more or answer questions about my belief/

I came here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum.

This message was edited by mikeyboy on 8-2-04 @ 8:37 PM

badorties

08-02-2004, 04:44 PM

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Mike Teacher

08-02-2004, 05:37 PM

A question for those who profess the Christian Faith: Why infinite suffering [hell] for finite sin?

Also; Why is God punishing us for our sins? He either made us perfect, or imperfect. If we sinned as we did in Eden, we were imperfect. Why punish something for acting in a way you made it? If you invoke that Satan made them do it; well, thats makes them imperfect, as they were tempted.

I dont get it.

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Late2party

08-02-2004, 05:45 PM

Why infinite suffering [hell] for finite sin?

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequence">Law of Unintended Consequences.</a>

monsterone

08-02-2004, 05:46 PM

Also; Why is God punishing us for our sins? He either made us perfect, or imperfect. If we sinned as we did in Eden, we were imperfect. Why punish something for acting in a way you made it? If you invoke that Satan made them do it; well, thats makes them imperfect, as they were tempted.

humans were created with free will, but provided with perfection. they chose knowledge over eternal bliss.

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reeshy

08-02-2004, 05:57 PM

I dont get it.

apperently you don't get alot of things...a persons personal beleive, to me , is sacred...whether he believes in Allah, Yahwey, Jesus or Satan...let it rest

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Mike Teacher

08-02-2004, 05:57 PM

Late2party

08-02-2004, 05:57 PM

humans were created with free will, but provided with perfection. they chose knowledge over eternal bliss.

So ignorance really is bliss.

And to strive for perfection is to strive for idiocy.

Cynical.

reeshy

08-02-2004, 06:00 PM

I don't know...that's God's decision...I'm not God...ask Him...oh that's right ...he doesn't exist...sorry!!

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grlNIN

08-02-2004, 06:18 PM

Ok, but Doesnt free will imply the ability to freely choose between alternatives? If the results of one choice is eternal damnation, or some other punishment, is that a choice made freely, or under duress? Any why couldnt God just snap His fingers and give them Knowledge AND Eternal Bliss?

Free will or not i'm presuming the decision made is based on what knowledge said person has gained up until that point & time in its life. Also, with its understanding the concepts between right and wrong. I'm fairly certain that if you choose a pear over an orange for lunch you're not going to be sent straight to Hell when you die but moreof the sin factor in committing crimes that you know to be evil and wrong.

If a sin is comitted under duress i would think that that person would be truely sorry for the actions he/she had made and upon asking for forgiveness and giving penance there would be no marks on their sould for the sin.

 
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whoopsy

08-02-2004, 07:06 PM

I've been wrestling with faith issues since childhood so not here to stomp on anyone's beliefs.

but i never understood how you can reconcile the two concepts of hell and a God who is all-forgiving and all-loving. God punishing us for eternity contradicts the core of Christian belief. no one has ever been able to answer that question to my satisfaction (although i've only discussed the issue with a couple people, not exactly the easiest topic of conversation)

- whoopsy -

monsterone

08-02-2004, 07:12 PM

Ok, but Doesnt free will imply the ability to freely choose between alternatives? If the results of one choice is eternal damnation, or some other punishment, is that a choice made freely, or under duress? Any why couldnt God just snap His fingers and give them Knowledge AND Eternal Bliss?

this is why most of philosophy, up until a 100 yrs ago or so, dealt with justifying logically that relevence of god the the nature of things.

the other thing is god is infalible, according to xtians, therefore, he knew his experiment would turn for the worst.
by that same token, is judas the hero of xtianity b/c he fulfilled it's prophecy?

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FUNKMAN

08-02-2004, 08:01 PM

remember, he or she who is without sin may cast the first stone...

except in Roger Clemen's case, then it's a beanball...

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monsterone

08-02-2004, 08:10 PM

or pedro...

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TheMojoPin

08-02-2004, 08:29 PM

I always liked the idea that Hell was something totally of our own making. Like, it's our own "guilt" that allows us to think we deserved to be punished.

That makes MUCH more sense, given how fucked up we are...and especially if God is supposed to be truly benevolent. If he/she/it is really that, how could they let us suffer more after death since they already let us suffer on Earth? Unless Hell is actually a prison of our own making...

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fluffernutter

08-02-2004, 08:30 PM

All this deep thinking is turning me on

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Mike Teacher

08-02-2004, 09:39 PM

this is why most of philosophy, up until a 100 yrs ago or so, dealt with justifying logically that relevence of god the the nature of things.

Wow is that true; I'd say it continues today, of course in a different fashoin, because 100 years is a very good marker for how much we knew about the universe. 100 years ago the atom was still being contemplated but we didnt know what is was made of or its structure. Hell we didnt discover the Neutron until the 1930s.

=

For me, these discussion are the most enjoyable. Ron mentioned the other night that whenever questions of faith is the topic, people get upset. I guess it's that way for some, but for me; exactly the opposite.

I'll assume there is a God. Cool. God gave me this Awesome brain, and that's very cool. I have this brain, and can observe and contemplate the universe. I can even abstract, asking questions like these. God also gave me the ability to question, to maintain a healty skepticism about things. I would hope God would also not punish me for using this Brain he gave me to question his existance.

=

Also, there is a frustration in Not Knowing. Now, some Know. Or say they Know. Wonderful, there they are. No judgements from me. For me, however, I really like the 'frustration' the struggle of Not knowing exactly how things are, and I like to study the stuff and compare and question, and if all the answers don't match up? So what?

We begin again, and the search continues. Maybe there is no destination in the search. Like infinity, a billion is as close as one; and it's all about the process, the journey, the struggle, and ultimately, the suffering.

We can Pray and Hope. Some would say Prayer is illogical. I say Hope is illogical, yet I hope. And Love is stronger then this.

=

And maybe, Sometimes God Hides.

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monsterone

08-02-2004, 09:54 PM

to answer the original question, i believe xtian dogma says the soul remains in a state of limbo until the end days. (for xtians - but i believe there is a loop hole for people that have never been introduced to the faith).

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jeffdwright2001

08-03-2004, 04:32 AM

Any why couldnt God just snap His fingers and give them Knowledge AND Eternal Bliss?

I'm not completely sure that you can have both. I would think that eternal bliss implies that you are aware of all that is good.

But to have a true understanding (or knowledge) of what is good or right with the world, don't you have to have contrast?

The whole idea of needing darkness to understand/appreciate the light comes into play at some point.

Did man/woman reject bliss and embrace knowledge because he didn't "know" any better? Or was it understood that for mankind to have true choice, there would be a need for that first and most important decision to accept the boundries laid out in the begining?

As for the concept of hell, I've often thought that hell was eternal separation between man and his God/Creator/whatever you want to call it.

What if hell were reciprocal though? As a parent, I can tell you that for me the most painful thought I can conceive is to permanently be separated from my child who is in pain or can't feel my love.

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Mike Teacher

08-03-2004, 05:00 AM

The whole idea of needing darkness to understand/appreciate the light comes into play at some point.

Jeff [and Monster]; those are some very cool insights, got my head spinning. I like that. I'm so utterly clueless about religion I spend all my time studying them. There's a Yogi-ism.

The whole idea of needing darkness to understand/appreciate the light comes into play at some point.

Yes this one does hit the ice and become eligible. But I wonder if it's indeed true. We have gravity; I have experienced gravity and have enough knowledge to deal with it, dont walk off a rooftop and all that; but I never experienced the Opposite of it. Or maybe watching that kid freak out when his balloon gets loose qualifies.

=

And to yes, address the original point. I'm not sure exactly the Christian doctrine of the SOul itself, or if different denominations believe differently. I do know that whether or not our souls were indeed Eternal or not was an early Q of the church; not sure if Constantine or the Council of Nicea addressed this, I've gone back so many times for other stuff, maybe i'll get time today.

=

And taking a step back, addressing the 'Soul'. This is something that has me thinking a lot. What exactly is it? Heck, anyone can see that when we are alive we possess, well life: these bodies we inhabit can generate emotions and feelings, these are real. Is that which gives the body life the soul?

Some say we are just a bunch of biochemical reactions and thought/emotion/love is just electrochemical brain stimulus. The only problem with that sentence is the word 'just'.

For me, even if it IS electrochemical brain signals; it is still a Human Brain, and it has in it all that it can do, think, cognate, abstract, question, and indeed Create! This thing makes art, music, poetry, love, wars, drugs, rock and roll...

For me, there are energies in ahuman that are Much more then the above. But I'm not sure on the premise that we have an individual soul that stays somewhere after death, or for eternity.

I should stop here. Gotta pee.

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FUNKMAN

08-03-2004, 08:36 AM

i believe xtian dogma says the soul remains in a state of limbo

don't look so bad, at least you got the beach and all...

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Neogoon

08-03-2004, 09:28 AM

Milhouse: Will there be cavemen in heaven?
Sunday School Teacher: Certainly not!
Bart: Uh, ma'am? What if you're a really good person, but
you get into a really, really bad fight and your leg gets
gangrene and it has to be amputated. Will it be waiting
for you in heaven?
SST: For the last time, Bart, yes!
[...later...]
SST: [very tired] The ventriloquist goes to heaven,
but the dummy doesn't.
Bart: [raises his hand] Ooh-ooh-ooh! Me!
Sunday School Teacher: Bart?
Bart: What about a robot with a human brain?
SST: [at the breaking point] I don't know! All these questions! Is a little blind faith too much to ask!?!

-- The Simpsons episode 'The Tell-Tale Head'

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