You can't compare Gagne to Mariano

[Marist Mike]

Seriously you can't do it...yeah the guy has 81 straight saves but he hasn't done it in a big game yet...and the one big game he had he gave up a homerun to Blalock in the all star game...is he a great closer yes...but until he does it in October he can't tie Mariano's jockstrap

[fluffernutter]

In all honesty and I am a huge Gagne fan, you're right. It will take a whole lot more than just gagne to get the Dodgers to the playoffs though. It is going to be a hell of a race inthe west. You can say the same about Billy Wagner. he is a stone cold stud closer but has yet to do it in a big game. I can't even recall when he had the chance in a big game.

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[ChickenHawk]

Agreed. No argument here.

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[walking joint]

you save 81 straight games and you can be compared to anyone. i'm not saying he is better than Rivera, but he can't get his team to October by himself. if Rivera is on the Dodgers, they are going no farther than they are with Gagne...as it is impossible to save/win more games than they have with Gagne on the team. if he never plays for a Championship team and never blows a save, you can't blame him. as good as Rivera is, his numbers are blown up by being on such a good team. he could have been an above average closer and still won a championship.

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[ChickenHawk]

There is no comparison. That's it. You couldn't compare fourth-year Kobe to veteran Michael Jordan either. Gagne has the POTENTIAL to be Mariano, in fact, if he keeps it up, he could go down in history as BETTER than Mariano. But right now, Mariano is a vet, with 4 rings, consistent stats, an ERA under 1, incredible staying power, composure under pressure, and most importantly, the ability to stand the test of time. Several post-season and World Series saves, and most-memorably, 3 scoreless innings against the Red Sox last year in Game 7. It's things like THAT that will prove whether or not Gagne can be compared to Mariano. It's things like that that determine whether or not a player is truly great. Not simply regular season stats. Gagne needs to perform like this for the next 7 or 8 years, and do it in CLUTCH moments where the pressure is ON before a fair comparison can be made. It's that simple.

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This message was edited by ChickenHawk on 6-21-04 @ 10:01 PM

[walking joint]

it's not that simple. Gagne can only do what is handed to him. his job is to save games and over the past 2 years he has done it better than anyone in baseball ever has. its no fault of his that the team doesn't win more games. he can only take them as far as they let him. i'm not putting Rivera down, but without the team that surrounds him, he never could have done all of those things. and if a Gagne team never gives him a chance to get there, that shouldn't go against him and therefore can't be considered great. what he is doing is amazing. 81 straight games. and who else in baseball could they compare him to. no one else has done as much as Rivera and no one has done close to what Gagne has done. there is no one else to compare him to.

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[ChickenHawk]

Understandable. And you're right, he does need to be PUT in such situations in order to prove whether or not he can do it. But if he doesn't end up in those situations, he won't have the chance to prove himself. And then, even still, we'll never know if the two can be compared fairly. Mariano had a team around him that gave him those opportunities, and he rose to the ocassion several times like no one else (with the exception of D-Backs 2001). Unfortuntely for Gagne, he's only had one big game chance and he blew it. We'll just have to see how the Dodgers do though.

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This message was edited by ChickenHawk on 6-21-04 @ 10:16 PM

[ADF]

I'm a big Dodger fan, so maybe I'm a bit biased, but I wouldn't call the All-Star game a "big game." It's the sort of thing where you just throw your best stuff and see if the other guy can hit it. If the Dodgers make the playoffs, I have full confidence in Gagne. It's the offense I worry about. I hope they can pick somebody up.. maybe Beltran for not too much later in the season.

Still, Mariano is the best closer ever. Gagne has had the best regular season ever.. well, even better than the season in which Eck had three walks (but blew it in the playoffs to the Dodgers).

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[Marist Mike]

Actually all of this really reminds me of when everyone said Trevor Hoffman was so great and he was but then in the World Series he gave up that homerun to Brosius

[jocefus]

im a dodgers fan... i agree with all of you, you cant compare the 2.. wait until they both retire before comparing them.. right now they are the 2 best closers in baseball... think of what can go wrong in getting 81 straight saves, it just doesnt rely on gagne.. if someone fucks up on defense the record ends.. if it wasn't for dave roberts robbing berkman in houston last year by jumpin the center field wall it would've ended at 43..

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This message was edited by jocefus on 6-21-04 @ 11:35 PM

[Bama]

Put Gagne on the Yankees and they don't miss a beat.

Also, the All Star game is worthless. It means nothing.

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[irishkb]

i can't believe you guys are brushing 81 saves in a row like it is nothing.. you don't think there is a huge amount of pressure on him to keep that streak going.. not too mention he has been like untouchable in most of those appearances.. gagne is just nasty.. i would take him over rivera any day...

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[Jack_Doff]

Gagne is better than Rivera. You can't blame Gagne for his team not being in the World Series every year. The argument that Rivera being better because he has more rings makes Luis Sojo a better shortstop than Ernie Banks. I don't want to take anything away from Rivera because he has been pretty nasty during his career, but you have to give Gagne credit and stop buying into the Yankee hype. And the All-Star game still means nothing, no matter what MLB wants you to believe.

[Crippler]

Gagne is better than Rivera. You can't blame Gagne for his team not being in the World Series every year.
Using this logic, Armondo Benitez & Danny Graves are also having better years than Mariano Rivera.

Don't get me wrong, because I think what Gagne is doing is incredible. But you can't deem someone as the best in the business if they don't play on the big stage.

It might be a stretch, and I don't mean to touch off another topic all together, but this is akin to the Mattingly/Puckett debate. Both perform in a similarly briliant fashion for a stretch of time, but one shines on the biggest stage his sport has to offer & rides that wave to the Hall of Fame, while the other, sadly, won't likely sniff the Hall.

Also, whenever Gagne's streak does end, and even if he pitches great & the Dodgers miraculously make the post season on his arm...he'll still have at least 5 more seasons & post seasons of dominance to go before he can be considered in the same class as Mo.

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[JPMNICK]

So we are all goin going to sit here and say Don Mattingly was not a great firstbaseman and can not be compared to Tino Martinez, or any other firstbaseman who has played in a world series, because he has never been on the big stage?

Mariano is awesome. Hands down, no one doubts that. He is even better in the playoffs / series. But there is NO WAY you can sit here and nto give a HUGE amount of credit to what Gagne has done. the numbers are amazing. To me, it is on par with the 56 game hitting streak. Night in and Night out he pitches awesome. Consistant.

I am a huge Yanks fan, and if a big game was on the line and I had to choose, it would be Mariano all the way. But looking at the past 2 years, you have to say that Gagne is better over that span. (not including playoffs)



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[Crippler]

But looking at the past 2 years, you have to say that Gagne is better over that span.
I agree 100%...but I thought the argument was about historical perspective. Gagne's last 2+ years have been undeniably incredible. But when you compare him to Mo you're talking about a body of work of a guy who has been the single greatest reliever in post season history, and well above average in the seasons in between.

If you want to look at both guys' past two regular seasons, April 1st to Sept 30th only, Gagne is the hands-down winner. It's just hard to ignore the fact that the guy you're saying is the lesser closer has risen to the occassion on the biggest stage his game has to offer, and multiple times at that. While the other guy has only pitched in one semi-important game in his career & failed.

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This message was edited by Crippler on 6-22-04 @ 11:15 AM

[Marist Mike]

Also, the All Star game is worthless. It means nothing.


I don't know about that I mean where game 7 of the World series is played is determined by who wins so it does mean something considering the home team pretty much never loses game 7

[walking joint]

yeah, it helped the Yankees a ton last year.

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[JPMNICK]

Crip -

If w are talking long term, then you are 100% correct, he is not even close to mariano, yet. I thought we were talking in the present, historically is a different story. Maybe he will be, maybe not.

Remember when Griffey Jr. was hitting all those home runs and was only like 26 or something. People were basically handing him the record then. Then he was hurt and struggled and lost a few years of prime hitting time.



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[Crippler]

JPMN - agreed...and that's really the whole reason I posted to begin with. Right now he's probably the better closer, but has he really been tested in a game with any real meaning? That aside, I still say that he's probably more dominant at the moment.

So let's allow the guy have a great year, we can talk about the streak all we want, etc. But let's stop comparing him to Mo because it can't be done in a vaccuum. It begs the comparison of historical perspective, which can't be done properly until Gagne builds some history to use as a comparison.

On this topic, here's an interesting article by ESPNs Joe Morgan about Gagne from a few days ago. Most notable is the fact that Morgan managed to get through the whole thing without mentioning the Big Red Machine once! Wait, let me read it again & make sure.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=morgan_joe&id=1818679

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[Def Dave in SC]

Apples and Oranges. Sure, Mariano has won more big games--hes played in more big games. All Gagne, and every closer, is asked to do is to keep a lead. Simple.

The fact is that if you have a one or two run lead in the ninth, of ANY game, who do you want? I'd take Gagne. Sure Mariano has the history, but Gagne's got it going NOW.

Plus, you put Gagne on the Yankees, he'll be even better. Theres an entire league who has never faced him.

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[ChickenHawk]

I'm right and everyone else is wrong.

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[A.J.]

but I wouldn't call the All-Star game a "big game." It's the sort of thing where you just throw your best stuff and see if the other guy can hit it.


You can do that and then blow your arm out -- see Pedro Martinez in 1999. He hasn't been as dominating since.

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[Bama]

World Series Game 7 losses

Mariano = 1
Gagne = 0

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[JPMNICK]

how many series has Gagne been in?
case closed.

Why don't you check the ERA and post season save count of Mariano. Then post again.

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[ChickenHawk]

Bama... That's the least credible argument in the history of existence.

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[Bama]

Not really an argument.

I just wanted to post it.

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[ChickenHawk]

Fair enough. Then we all agree.

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[Bama]

We agree on nothing.

Mariano's team is better. That's the difference between the two pitchers.

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[ChickenHawk]

But we agree on the fact that your stat about blown world series games is worthless.

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[Bama]

And we agree that the All Star game stat was worthless

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[ChickenHawk]

No, because so far (not by any fault of his own) that was the only somewhat big-game moment he's been called on to save a game.

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[walking joint]

he sucks

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[Bama]

Oh well, Gagne's streak is over.

Time to start another rediculous one that Rivera will never dream of coming close to tomorrow.

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[HBox]

Let Gagne make one, one, just ONE save when something tangible is on the line, and then, and ONLY THEN, will we be on the road to one day possibly even considering having an argument about this. We've seen countless "great" closers miserably fail in the postseason, when it really matters. Why should we give Gagne the benefit of the doubt when he's never even been through a pennant race, let alone ONE postseason game. There is NO WAY you know until the guy is under pressure.

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[Bama]

I think we'll continue having this argument right now. Thank you very much.

So basically the consensus here among Yankee apologists is that the regular season means nothing. I reject that argument. I reject the argument that you have to do something in the postseason to validate a career.

Does anyone seriously think the Yankees would be worse off with Gagne replacing Mariano? You guys say he isn't even in the same ballpark. Sorry, but he is. They are equals at worst.

80+ straight saves is an astonishing achievement.




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[HBox]

Does anyone seriously think the Yankees would be worse off with Gagne replacing Mariano? You guys say he isn't even in the same ballpark. Sorry, but he is. They are equals at worst.

I'm not saying anything definitive, you are. I don't know if the Yanks would be better off with Gagne. People said Trevor Hoffman was better than Rivera. That proved to be untrue. Octavio Dotel was the most dominant relief pitcher last year. This year he starts closing and loses his job in a month and gets traded. Urbina was dominant last year with the Marlins but shaky in the playoffs.

What has Gagne done? Has he closed one game that the Dodgers absolutely HAD to win? Most of the regular season means nothing. Every game Gagne has saved has meant nothing. Lets see what happens this September when the Dodgers are fighting the Giants. If he comes in and dominates every game he has to close, that when he starts building some real credibility. Until then he has a record as meaningless as Bobby Thigpen's 56 save season.

Who? Exactly.

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[ChickenHawk]

Bama... You just hate the Yankees. You hate them a lot... and that will lead you to continuously make baseless arguments against them, regardless of how great their players are.


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[ADF]

Octavio Dotel was the most dominant relief pitcher last year.


No, Gagne was the most dominant reliever last year. He had the greatest regular season for a reliever <i>of all time</i>.



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[BrownTown]

<img src="http://www.obsessedwithwrestling.com/pic/g/gagnes/greg2.jpg">

I think he's better than Mariano.

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This message was edited by BrownTown on 7-6-04 @ 10:05 AM

[HBox]

No, Gagne was the most dominant reliever last year. He had the greatest regular season for a reliever of all time.

You are right. I got Dotel's 2002 season confused with last year. OK. So change that to second most dominant reliever. Point still stands.

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[JimBeam]

You cant say that because a guy has had more chances in the World Series he is by far the better closer.
Whats better to compare is the common ground, and that is the regular season.
Give Gagne as many years and see the numbers.

To say that his WS experience makes him better is to say that Herm Winningham is a better Reds OFer than Griffey because he has more World Series hits.
Or that Rafael Belliard was a better SS than Ernie Banks because he had more hits in the WS.

Again, its about common ground.



I have balls !!!

[ChickenHawk]

When you watch a Michael Jordan highlight reel, where is MOST of the footage from? BIG GAMES. Series-clinching shots. Very seldom does a big shot from a pre-season or unimportant regular season game make the career highlights.
If Michael Jordan never played in a single playoff game, would we know if he was truly great? No. We would know that he's an amazing basketball player, but no one would dare call him the greatest basketball player EVER.

Not a lot of people here are saying Gagne ISN'T very good. Going 84 straight saves, he's obviously an awesome closer... But is he TRULY GREAT? We don't know... and we won't know until he can prove it.


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This message was edited by ChickenHawk on 7-6-04 @ 6:40 PM

[JimBeam]

But being in the WS does not make you great.
It makes you very fortunate and if you have had a great career bolsters your resume but does not automatically make you better than somebody who has not been as fortunate.

Since we are making generalizations, had Rivera never appeared in a WS, would he be considered one of the greatest closers ever ?
Probably not.
He'd be mentioned as being very good due to the number of saves, but in 10 years, his numbers will be dwarfed becasue the closer role has become more specialized even in the last few years.

A closer on even a .500 team can end a season with 50 saves. Do that 6 years in a row are you great ?



I have balls !!!

[HBox]

You cant say that because a guy has had more chances in the World Series he is by far the better closer.

No, but you can say that when someone has all those chances, and in all those games only screws up twice, and ends up being the most dominant post-season reliever in the history of the sport BY FAR, that he has proven himself.

Teams play the game to win the World Series, not to beat the Brewers on some random night in June.

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[Teenweek]

Rivera also pitches against the best talent in the playoffs. Until Gagne saves a meaningful game in October this case is over. Gagne best regular season reliever. Rivera best postseason closer ever in the history of the game.

[Duke]

yea and Hoffman was (i dont know now) better then both of them....

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[Bama]

Mariano sure looked good last night

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[HBox]

I just wanted to mention that we're heading down the stretch, the Dodgers are in a pennant race and Gagne just blew his second straight save in as many nights.

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[Lumber]

Joe Namath is lookin` good too!!!

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[ChickenHawk]

Joe Namath is lookin` good too!!!
What sport are we talkin' about here?

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[Lumber]

Joe Namath is lookin` good too!!!
What sport are we talkin' about here?

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[Lumber]

Badmitton!

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[ChickenHawk]

When you quote me, just remove my sig. or at least the part that says "color=white". That way you won't need to post twice.

And I love Badmitton.

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[Lumber]

When you quote me, just remove my sig. or at least the part that says "color=white". That way you won't need to post twice.

And I love Badmitton.

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[Bama]

1) I don't think tonight was a save opp for Gagne since it was 5-5 when he entered.

2) He was facing the mighty Braves.

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