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fluffernutter
06-18-2004, 02:08 PM
I just caught wind of this on my news-wire. Hopefully it is relevant.

I hope things don't get even more messy over there and more of our guys (or citizens for that matter) are put in dangerous situations.

Story Here (http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=SDJ2CMEDDGSW2CRBAEZSF EY?type=topNews&storyID=5460994)

Eye for an eye.



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ChickenHawk
06-18-2004, 02:16 PM
Damn, that was quick. Reading this makes me genuinely happy.

The world now has one less sub-human scumbag.


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This message was edited by ChickenHawk on 6-18-04 @ 6:21 PM

WRESTLINGFAN
06-18-2004, 02:20 PM
Hopefully that terrorist scumbag died a painful death

FIRE SATHER!!!!!!!

schmega
06-18-2004, 02:34 PM
i'm really baffled as to how the saudis managed to do this so soon after the beheading.

http://gilseed.home.acedsl.com/spsig.jpg

JerryTaker
06-18-2004, 02:54 PM
couldn't have happened to a nicer guy,,,

Unfortunately, since the Saudi Govenment killed him in response to the Killing of an American, he becomes a Martyr to Bin Laden's cause...

That's why we have to step back and look at his from a different point of view: Mr Berg and Mr Johnson were irreplacable human beings, while another animal in a hood and an AK will be standing there by next week


<br><B>
Sig Pending...</B>

reeshy
06-18-2004, 03:34 PM
I don't know... it's sounds kind of fishy to me....the Saudi's can find and kill this asshole hours after he kills our citizen but had no idea where he was up to that point....I just don't know!!!!!

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[center]

HBox
06-18-2004, 03:38 PM
I don't know... it's sounds kind of fishy to me....the Saudi's can find and kill this asshole hours after he kills our citizen but had no idea where he was up to that point....I just don't know!!!!!

I was thinking the same thing. I think they obviously always intended to kill him. Perhaps he's been dead for days and they just delivered the tape today, and their "demands" were just wishful thinking. And then maybe the Saudi's finally tracked them down today.

Or maybe I'm thinking too much of them.

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BoondockSaint
06-18-2004, 03:59 PM
I was thinking the same thing. I think they obviously always intended to kill him. Perhaps he's been dead for days and they just delivered the tape today, and their "demands" were just wishful thinking. And then maybe the Saudi's finally tracked them down today.


I think what Reeshy meant was the Saudis knew where this guy was the whole time, waited for him to kill the American, and then went and killed the guy to make themselves look good.

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reeshy
06-18-2004, 04:03 PM
I think what Reeshy meant was the Saudis knew where this guy was the whole time, waited for him to kill the American, and then went and killed the guy to make themselves look good.


Exactly...and how do we know that the body they have of the "killer" is really the miscreant who did the deed????? Saudi Arabi is owned and controlled by al Qeda...need I say more???

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This message was edited by reeshy on 6-18-04 @ 8:04 PM

keithy_19
06-18-2004, 04:11 PM
"Next week on the RonFez.net conspiracy corner, who really killed JFK, and why do you always lose one sock when you do laundry."
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This message was edited by KeithyBoBeefy on 6-18-04 @ 8:12 PM

mikeyboy
06-18-2004, 04:14 PM
"Next week on the RonFez.net conspiracy corner, who really killed JFK, and why do you always lose one sock when you do laundry."


Where have you been? (http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm/Forum/87/Topic/32257/page/Kennedy_Assasination.htm)

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keithy_19
06-18-2004, 04:16 PM
Wher have you been?

Being lazy, sir...

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HBox
06-18-2004, 04:21 PM
I meant that the terrorists might have killed Johnson days ago, and only delivered the tape of the killing today. And that maybe the Saudi's really were trying to find Johnson, and that even if they killed Mugrin yesterday, Johnson would already be dead.

But I don't see how the scenario of the Saudi's letting Johnson die, and then killing Mugrin makes any sense, because as it is now, Americans are pissed at them and extremists are pissed at them. If there were trying to make a token gesture to look good to us and still satisfy extremists, they would have picked somebody other than their leader.

But that's all speculation. The whole thing seems fishy.

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TheMojoPin
06-18-2004, 04:22 PM
Reeshy hit my feelings EXACTLY.

This scumbag deserved what he got, and should have gotten it a long time ago...but given that it's the Saudi government we're talking here, you can't help but see things as at least a little suspect.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

reeshy
06-18-2004, 04:37 PM
Excuse me, Mr. keithybobeefyweefydeefy, but I am not a conspiracy fan. I just happen to be a person who reads various newspapers and websites and also talks to people who happen to be in the intelligence field (I used to be one of them).I
f you had read anything, you will see that Saudi Arabia has been controlled by Al queda for several years now...and also being a country that is controlled by Islamic rule and justice. So there!!!!

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HBox
06-18-2004, 04:37 PM
And here's another thing that bothers me: How do we know he's dead? I don't trust the Saudis word.

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reeshy
06-18-2004, 04:38 PM
Reeshy hit my feelings EXACTLY.


WOW...me and Mojo agree...where the fuck is my gun and my forehead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

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[center]I know karate....voodoo too!![center]

reeshy
06-18-2004, 04:40 PM
And here's another thing that bothers me: How do we know he's dead? I don't trust the Saudis word.


Have you read ANYTHING that I wrote?????????????

[center]<IMG SRC=http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:IYDonf73fZQJ:overseer5.freeyellow.com/mussolini.jpg>
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[center]I know karate....voodoo too!![center]

HBox
06-18-2004, 04:43 PM
Have you read ANYTHING that I wrote?????????????

<font size="6">WHAT!? You're gonna have to SPEAK UP! My hearing's bad at this old age!<font size="1">

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reeshy
06-18-2004, 04:45 PM
This is why I firmly believe in corporal punishment!!!!!!

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[center]I know karate....voodoo too!![center]

ChickenHawk
06-18-2004, 04:46 PM
<font size="7">HE SAID "READ" NOT "HEARD"!!!</font>

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TheMojoPin
06-18-2004, 04:55 PM
WHO stepped on a bird?!?

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

mikeyboy
06-18-2004, 04:58 PM
Wher have you been?

Being lazy, sir...



How did you add a typo when quoting my post?

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badorties
06-18-2004, 05:05 PM
Damn, that was quick. Reading this makes me genuinely happy.

The world now has one less sub-human scumbag.


unfortunately, there'll be inspired teenagers and newly named babies in honour of this martyred leader ...



I don't know... it's sounds kind of fishy to me....the Saudi's can find and kill this asshole hours after he kills our citizen but had no idea where he was up to that point....I just don't know!!!!!


i so tired of being cynical, it's constantly disheartening to mistrust everything -- i miss the comfort of not having to question everything ... i want to believe in our government, but its such a real struggle ...



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TheMojoPin
06-18-2004, 07:03 PM
i want to believe in our government, but its such a real struggle ...

What does our government have to do with this particular incident? This is the Saudis.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

reeshy
06-18-2004, 07:10 PM
so tired of being cynical, it's constantly disheartening to mistrust everything -- i miss the comfort of not having to question everything ... i want to believe in our government, but its such a real struggle ...


Goddam it!!!!! Now I'm agreeing with Mojo!!!!!!!! Now I have to castrate myself after I shoot myself in the head!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[center]<IMG SRC=http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:IYDonf73fZQJ:overseer5.freeyellow.com/mussolini.jpg>
[center]
[center]I know karate....voodoo too!![center]

TheMojoPin
06-18-2004, 07:18 PM
You've gone blind, you old coot.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

reeshy
06-18-2004, 07:20 PM
God, you look purty!!!!!!!!

[center]<IMG SRC=http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:IYDonf73fZQJ:overseer5.freeyellow.com/mussolini.jpg>
[center]
[center]I know karate....voodoo too!![center]

TheMojoPin
06-18-2004, 07:29 PM
See?

"I'VE GOT A BROKEN FA-A-ACE!!! UH-HUH!!!"

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

HBox
06-19-2004, 12:31 AM
Web site denies Al Qaeda leader's death (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040619/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_kidnapped_american&cid=540&ncid=716)

Just goes to prove my brilliant theory which was certainly not stolen from anyone else! ;)

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

JerryTaker
06-19-2004, 11:14 AM
Saudi Arabi is owned and controlled by al Qeda...need I say more???


Wait, what? if that were true, we're not only buying our Oil from Al Queda, but they also bailed out Citicorp? (citibank, et. al. they run the commercials for thier bank all the time on CNN)


<br><B>
Sig Pending...</B>

canofsoup15
06-20-2004, 06:07 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/20/iraq.main/index.html

The last beheading thread was locked, but I just wanted people to see this so that it wont be a suprise to anyone and henceforth creating another flamewar. These people are sick animals, there is nothing more you can say.

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This message was edited by canofsoup15 on 6-20-04 @ 10:08 PM

A.J.
06-20-2004, 06:53 PM
Pity he couldn't have been taken alive. I'd like to see the Saudie get Abu Gharith on his ass.

Have a nice sand nap, shitbag.

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TheMojoPin
06-20-2004, 07:00 PM
but I just wanted people to see this so that it wont be a suprise to anyone and henceforth creating another flamewar. These people are sick animals, there is nothing more you can say.

And?

The flamewars here aren't started over people calling terrorists out for the murdering scumshits they are. NOBODY disagrees with that. It starts when it veers into, "ALL Arabs are 'animals' and 'savages'," that some people start getting angry.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

canofsoup15
06-20-2004, 07:08 PM
Yeah, I wanted to say that's what I was hoping to start. I was tempted to say something along the lines of "we must remember that this does not reflect the people from their respective country..yadda yadda yadda." But I feared that even this would start off a flame war. I also believe that had known the action would take place before it actually happened they wouldn't be suprised and they would not get belligerent and shoot out random acusations to an entire country.

I just don't want another fucking flamewar and I will do anything that could help dampen it or stop it.

<img src=http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Canofsoup15/Sigs/PearlJam2.gif>

<marquee behavior=alternate><Font size="1" Color="blue">
Stuck in believe there is a lie, Promises promise an eye for an eye.
We've got something to reveal, No one can know how we feel.</marquee>

TheMojoPin
06-20-2004, 07:10 PM
Dude, this is the politics forum.

As valiant as your efforts are, it's like pissing on a forest fire, sadly.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

canofsoup15
06-20-2004, 07:14 PM
Yeah well, that may be. But at least im saving MY ass. haha. I say we let this thread die so there is no chance of a flamewar.

Why do people go fucking insane when it comes to politics? (I'll even include myself in that.)

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<marquee behavior=alternate><Font size="1" Color="blue">
Stuck in believe there is a lie, Promises promise an eye for an eye.
We've got something to reveal, No one can know how we feel.</marquee>

Se7en
06-20-2004, 07:27 PM
Reeshy hit my feelings EXACTLY.

This scumbag deserved what he got, and should have gotten it a long time ago...but given that it's the Saudi government we're talking here, you can't help but see things as at least a little suspect.


I would have to agree as well.

My first reaction when I heard on the news (just prior to Johnson's death) that the Saudis had "thousands" of men looking for the American? I laughed. Heartily. Like others here, I find it a little suspicious that they just couldn't find the guy in time to save his life, but they have his killer dead only a few hours after the fact.

And I also agree with Hbox (MARK those calendars, boys) - I can't even take them at face value in their identification of this man. Their assertion that this is the Al-Qaeda leader could be nothing but lip service, and I wouldn't be surprised at all.

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Hottub
06-22-2004, 09:09 AM
Bastards (http://apnews.excite.com/article/20040622/D83C6CL81.html)

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TheMojoPin
06-22-2004, 09:11 AM
Well, thus far the South Koreans aren't bending like Spain did.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

Se7en
06-22-2004, 09:13 AM
Did anyone REALLY believe they were going to let him go, alive, anyway?

SO FAR, countries have been doing this the way they should - not giving in to these fuckers demands.

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Don't blame me....I voted for Kodos.
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Hottub
06-22-2004, 09:14 AM
They actually have the 3rd highest presence, after the US and Britain.

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"Ahh, Beer. The cause of, and answer to all of life's problems"
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Doomstone
06-22-2004, 11:07 AM
Well, thus far the South Koreans aren't bending like Spain did.


Why do you perpetuate this lie?

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JerryTaker
06-22-2004, 11:10 AM
Well, thus far the South Koreans aren't bending like Spain did.


Mojo, HUGE difference between this and what happened in Spain

<br><B>
Sig Pending...</B>

TheMojoPin
06-22-2004, 11:34 AM
In the specifics of the acts that occured? Yes. But both were terrorist strikes against citizens of countries offering relatively large amounts of military support to the war in Iraq. Very large protests against the SK involvement in the war have sprung up since this guy was captured, and members of the SK government are now openly challenging the decision to send their country's soldiers to Iraq. While this was not an internal strike against SK, it does set that country up to be in a similar position as Spain in the near future.

Why do you perpetuate this lie?

Lie?

Terrorists unleash awful bombings in Spain.

Terrorists say, "get out of Iraq!"

Massive protests say, "get out of Iraq!"

Spain elects new government shortly after attacks.

New government withdraws all Spanish troops, something they only promised to do AFTER the terrorist bombings occured.

To me, that is bending to the terrorists, given how it happened and how quickly it happened.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

JerryTaker
06-22-2004, 11:48 AM
Terrorists unleash awful bombings in Spain.

Terrorists say, "get out of Iraq!"

Massive protests say, "get out of Iraq!"

Spain elects new government shortly after attacks.

New government withdraws all Spanish troops, something they only promised to do AFTER the terrorist bombings occured.

To me, that is bending to the terrorists, given how it happened and how quickly it happened.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

EDIT: um yeah, an actual response...

What bothers me is the right's campaign to use the above to say "If we elect Kerry, the terrorists win"

The sensitivity is understandable

<br><B>
Sig Pending...</B>

This message was edited by JerryTaker on 6-22-04 @ 3:50 PM

TheMojoPin
06-22-2004, 11:53 AM
Well, that's just ludicrous.

I'm not trying to attack what happened in Spain, that's just how I view what happened. The people voted in the leaders they wanted, and the new leaders did what the people wanted. I'm not going to fault that system. I just doubt that things were guarenteed to go that way before the terrorists struck and made their threats afterwards.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

JerryTaker
06-22-2004, 11:57 AM
I wasn't insinuating you were perpetuating that, I'm just saying that that's been used by the right wing pundits on every friggin' TV network in that way.

<br><B>
Sig Pending...</B>

TheMojoPin
06-22-2004, 12:02 PM
That sucks.

I've trained myself to tune out the political ads this election, so they're all just pops and buzzes at this point.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

Doomstone
06-22-2004, 12:07 PM
Lie?

Terrorists unleash awful bombings in Spain.

Terrorists say, "get out of Iraq!"

Massive protests say, "get out of Iraq!"

Spain elects new government shortly after attacks.

New government withdraws all Spanish troops, something they only promised to do AFTER the terrorist bombings occured.

To me, that is bending to the terrorists, given how it happened and how quickly it happened.



Mojo, you're guilty of one of the most common logical mistakes: confusing correlation with causation.

The Spanish people didn't surrender to terrorist threat, they were against sending troops from the start. They voted out their leader who sent troops because he went against the will of the people, not because of terrorist action. In addition, Aznar was caught in a lie when he pinned the blame for the bombings on the ETA and not on al-Qaeda, where it rightfully belonged.

So, the Prime Minister a) goes against the will of the people and b) is exposed as a liar just before the election, and you want to accuse those who voted him out of bending to terrorists, and not praise them and the democratic system for replacing an unpopular leader with one more to their liking?

Sorry, you're just flat out wrong here.


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TheMojoPin
06-22-2004, 12:22 PM
I don't think I am.

The newly elected party was NOT promising immediate withdrawl prior to the bombings or the terrorist demands. The offered that as their primary platform AFTER the strikes. Before this, there was no sure bet the PM and his party would be voted out. The party currently elected took advantage of the situation presented by the terrorist strikes and offered the quick solution to sway all the people in the wake of the terrorist bombings. I consider that not only bending to the terrorists but shamelessly opportunistic.

But, as I already said, the people voted in who they wanted, and the elected party went ahead with the promise that got them elected in the first place. It's their call, and they got what they wanted. I find no fault with that. Never once did I criticize the system for working this manner, and had already gone out of my way to indicate that even before your last response.

It still doesn't change that the terrorist strikes very likely forced the results of the election, and the elected party was all too willing to meet their demands to sway the votes of the people in the wake of the attacks. I'm simply recognizing how drastically the campaign promises changed between the attacks and the election.

I'm NOT saying that the people were wrong in demanding the removal of the troops after the attacks, but the bombings definitely forced the now-elected party to "bend" to get elected in the first place, since there was no guarentee they were going to win BEFORE the attacks.

The key to my opinion is that the socialists changed their platform to almost specifically reflect the ultimate demands of the terrorist, thus playing on the fears and emotions running through the Spanish people after the attacks. The people, however, still had a choice, and they chose the socialists. That's their right to do so. Again, I did not ever criticize that system, so let's heave that right on the window before I have to clarify that yet AGAIN.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 6-22-04 @ 4:26 PM

Se7en
06-22-2004, 12:24 PM
WOW, I'm actually a bit shocked.

I thought Mojo was initially just being a "smartass liberal", as most liberals I know seem to follow this "How DARE you say Spain bent to the terrorists! It was a democratic decision they made!" tact that Doomstone here is following, and thus I thought he was making a joke of those who think that Spain was capitulating to the terrorists.

But hey, you seem legit, Mojo.

.....unless this is all an elaborate ruse!!!!!

Edited to add this:

The newly elected party was NOT promising immediate withdrawl prior to the bombings or the terrorist demands. The offered that as their primary platform AFTER the strikes.

I believe you're correct. If memory serves me, I believe the initial promise was that they would leave after the June 30th handover date. After bombings it was changed to "we're getting our asses out immediately."

<center><img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/7_sig.gif" width="300" height="100">
<br>
<br>
Don't blame me....I voted for Kodos.
I look forward to an orderly election that will eliminate the need for a violent bloodbath. </center>

This message was edited by Se7en on 6-22-04 @ 4:27 PM

TheMojoPin
06-22-2004, 12:34 PM
Exactly.

Look at Se7en and I...uniting...NOT dividing!

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Doomstone
06-22-2004, 12:35 PM
The newly elected party was NOT promising immediate withdrawl prior to the bombings or the terrorist demands. The offered that as their primary platform AFTER the strikes


Dude, that is such bullshit. One of Zapatero's main campaign themes <b>from the beginning</b> was pulling the 1,300 Spanish troops out of Iraq. The bombings didn't change that. The bombings didn't force his hand.

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TheMojoPin
06-22-2004, 12:39 PM
Like Se7en said, the initial promise was only to have them out by the June 30th deadline. It only became imemdiate withdrawl AFTER the bombings.

And look, it's just what happened! Who cares? Spain didn't want more bombings in its country, and they decided the best way to avoid that was to remove troops from a war I haven't agreed with from day one! It's not driving ME nuts they pulled out...it's just what happened.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 6-22-04 @ 4:41 PM

Doomstone
06-22-2004, 12:47 PM
Who cares? Me, because I have family in Spain and I'm sick of this lie that the country is a bunch of terrorist appeasers. You and Se7en are both wrong. Shit, I would love to find a site from last year that proves Zapatero promised to remove the troops <b>immediately</b> if elected, but all I have is a google search and all I'm getting are articles from after the election.

Seriously, it's almost as if <b>you're</b> bending to the will of the terrorists for even thinking they were responsible for the election results...

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TheMojoPin
06-22-2004, 01:28 PM
Hey, it's your opinion. I have mine. I said they "bended," not that they were terrorist appeasers. I used the term because as much as I disagree with this war, I don't think we can just 100% pull out when we want, and other countries doing so puts foreigners within Iraq at even more risk. I respect their decision to pull their troops out (Never said I didn't, went out of way to say I didn't), but am saddened they couldn't have fullfilled the initial promise of waiting until the 30th. I can't help but play detective when I see people saying one thing, and then after an event as awful as the Spain bombings, they've switched things up to reflect the demands that are influencing the Spanish people.

I understand why the people would want more immediate action, since they're, IMHO, at much more risk to everyday terror attacks than a nation such as our own. The people wanted that result, and they voted in the party promising to do that for them (Though again, you can't deny this was shaped by the attacks. Look at the polls leading up the attacks, and then afterwards). Like I said, that's just how it happened. Doesn't lessen my view of them or their country, just makes me a little disapointed that it APPEARS the newly-elected party was so willing to play on what happened in (And what was demanded of) the country to get elected.

And trust me, I'm not trying to past some kind of holier-than-them judgement. My own voting would probably be just as influenced if I had been a Spanish citizen in the midst of all that, too.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 6-22-04 @ 5:34 PM

HBox
06-22-2004, 01:38 PM
You guys are forgetting one important thing: The Spanish people thought the ruling party were trying to push blame on the ETA when they knew who was really responsible. Post-election polling showed that being the thing that most influenced Spanish voters.

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TheMojoPin
06-22-2004, 01:43 PM
No, Doomstone did indeed bring that up already. The outgoing party/PM were no saints, that's for sure...

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

HBox
06-22-2004, 01:45 PM
Some would say I should actually read these threads. To those I say, you might have a point.

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Doomstone
06-22-2004, 02:15 PM
Christ, I feel like I'm talking to a wall...



I respect their decision to pull their troops out (Never said I didn't, went out of way to say I didn't), but am saddened they couldn't have fullfilled the initial promise of waiting until the 30th.


Again, they were saying from the start that if elected, they would pull the troops <b>immediately</b>. Not after the handover (was June 30 even the scheduled date at that point?), but as soon as possible. I distinctly remember that being one of the key issues in talking with folks in Spain well before the train bombings.



Look at the polls leading up the attacks, and then afterwards


The polls before the attacks basically showed a dead heat, after Aznar was exposed as a liar public opinion turned against him and turnout for the election was higher than expected. Polls also showed Howard Dean running away with the primaries, did that happen?



Doesn't lessen my view of them or their country, just makes me a little disapointed that it APPEARS the newly-elected party was so willing to play on what happened in (And what was demanded of) the country to get elected.



Again, this is just as bad as the idiots who claim that a vote for Kerry is a vote for bin Laden. Would anyone have any respect for a person who says, "Well, I want to vote for A, but it might appear to an outside observer that a vote for A is doing what the terrorists want, so instead I'll vote for B, even though I disagree with him?" That to me is morally treasonable.

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HBox
06-22-2004, 02:27 PM
morally treasonable.

What the fuck does that mean!? You're a traitor to the country of your morals?

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Doomstone
06-22-2004, 02:34 PM
If Theodore Roosevelt were alive today, perhaps he could give a sufficient answer. He's the one who coined the term after all...

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HBox
06-22-2004, 02:38 PM
Teddy Roosevelt? Did he come up with that in that speech where he was shot? That sounds like something that would come out of a man who lost a lot of blood.

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Doomstone
06-22-2004, 02:43 PM
No, it's from an editorial he wrote in the Kansas City Star on May 7, 1918, more than 5 years after he was shot....

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TheMojoPin
06-22-2004, 03:35 PM
Christ, I feel like I'm talking to a wall...

Join the club.


I respect their decision to pull their troops out (Never said I didn't, went out of way to say I didn't), but am saddened they couldn't have fullfilled the initial promise of waiting until the 30th.

Again, they were saying from the start that if elected, they would pull the troops <b>immediately</b>. Not after the handover (was June 30 even the scheduled date at that point?), but as soon as possible. I distinctly remember that being one of the key issues in talking with folks in Spain well before the train bombings.

Well, I'd appreciate it if you could find a source to back that up. I'm thinking back to an article I read in US News & World Report several months ago overviewing the Spanish elections, and I don't have it in front of me, so I'm not going to say I'm 100%, but I DO recall being very struck by the analysis of the socialists' campaign before the bombing compared to afterwards.



Look at the polls leading up the attacks, and then afterwards


The polls before the attacks basically showed a dead heat, after Aznar was exposed as a liar public opinion turned against him and turnout for the election was higher than expected. Polls also showed Howard Dean running away with the primaries, did that happen?

We're not talking a gap the size of the one between our primaries and then our election. I'm talking just a couple months. Look how much the socialists won by compared to the polls before the election.

Doesn't lessen my view of them or their country, just makes me a little disapointed that it APPEARS the newly-elected party was so willing to play on what happened in (And what was demanded of) the country to get elected.

Again, this is just as bad as the idiots who claim that a vote for Kerry is a vote for bin Laden. Would anyone have any respect for a person who says, "Well, I want to vote for A, but it might appear to an outside observer that a vote for A is doing what the terrorists want, so instead I'll vote for B, even though I disagree with him?" That to me is morally treasonable.

Nice not-too-subtle way of calling ME an idiot. Real classy. I don't see the comparison at all, since I've offered ZERO criticism of the voters' choice in the Spanish election, and reserved my pretty goddamn mild criticism for the socialist party itself and their campaign during the election in the wake of bombings. This is the upteenth time you've accused me of something I didn't even come close to saying in this thread, and your forced righteous indignation is getting pretty hollow since you're basically arguing points I'm not even bringing up in the first place.

You want me to sum it up for you? The terrorist bombings in Spain shaped the results of the elections there AND the policy of the winning party. Did I condemn this system? Not once. Did I condemn the voters? Not once. Did I express disapointment that the winning party was so willing to mirror the demands of the terrorist in the wake of the attacks (Which is NOT saying they did what they did strictly for the terrorists)? Yes. Beyond that, I haven't branded anyone ANYTHING here, something you've been more than ready to do with practically every response to me.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 6-22-04 @ 8:36 PM

Recyclerz
06-22-2004, 04:21 PM
Well, I always like to get involved in these cyber-pissing matches after they get nice & wet and right before the thread gets locked. So here goes:

(Sorry, for the long stories. I downloaded them from Lexis-Nexis and they can't be linked.)

Maestro, a little context please -

May 2003 Spain gets its first taste of post-Iraq Islamist terrorism.

The New York Times May 18, 2003 Sunday

AFTEREFFECTS: MADRID;
Spain Denies War Support Left it Bare To Attacks
BYLINE: By EMMA DALY

The Spanish government sought to dismiss suggestions by political opponents that its staunch support for the American-led war in Iraq led suicide bombers in Casablanca to pick out a Spanish club and restaurant on Friday night.
Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar, campaigning in the Canary Islands for next weekend's regional elections, blamed unidentified "fundamentalists" for the bombings.
"It is not the first time that we have seen things and people linked to Spain facing attacks from these fanatical fundamentalists, these terrorist fundamentalists, and we cannot feel immune from anything inspired by this brutal fundamentalism," he told a rally after holding a minute of silence for the victims.
But Julio Anguita, the former leader of United Left party, whose son was killed while covering the war as a journalist for the Spanish daily El Mundo, accused the United States, Britain and Spain of "stirring up a wasp's nest" and making the world a more dangerous place, the Spanish news agency EFE reported.
"This is just the start," he added, according to Agence France-Presse. "The world is becoming less safe. The Bush-Blair-Aznar trinity has lit the rocket fuse, and they don't know what might happen next."
The Spanish Socialist leader, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, assured the government of his support in the fight against terrorism.
Mr. Rodriguez did not explicitly link the attack to the Iraqi conflict but a Socialist official, Jose Blanco, said the attacks confirmed the party's fear that "the war in Iraq was going to provoke more hatred and rancor and, therefore, the threat of more instability."
Mr. Blanco said that although the scale of the attacks was not yet clear, the time had come for the government to "rethink" its position and withdraw troops dispatched to Iraq.

Mr. Aznar's embrace of President Bush's Iraq policy was opposed by more than 90 percent of the Spanish population, according to opinion polls.
On Friday night, at least two suicide bombers entered the Casa de Espana, a privately owned restaurant popular with Moroccan and Spanish businessmen and tourists, causing an explosion and fire that killed or wounded scores of people. A Foreign Ministry official said at least two Spaniards were killed in the bombing, and another three wounded, one badly.

Then

November 2003

Seven Spanish Intellegence Officers get Killed by a Bomb in Iraq

The Independent (London), December 1, 2003

AZNAR RESISTS MOUNTING PRESSURE TO WITHDRAW TROOPS AS BODIES OF AGENTS ARE FLOWN HOME.

...The Socialist's leader, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, declared solidarity with "Spanish compatriots ... our sons and brothers. This is a day of grief and pain for everyone." But he added: "Let our troops come home as soon as possible."

AND

Feb. 2004 Before the Madrid Bombings

Agence France Presse -- English February 12, 2004

...Spain's opposition Socialist Party (PSOE) leader said Thursday that if he wins a March 14 general election he will withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq at the end of June unless a UN-led force takes charge.

"They will return home if the United Nations does not take charge of the situation" in Iraq, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero told Tele 5 television. ...


There were some other stories but my editorial judgement says these are a fair representation of what I found.

Gentlemen, resume your whizzing.
;)

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TheMojoPin
06-22-2004, 04:31 PM
Feb. 2004 Before the Madrid Bombings

Agence France Presse -- English February 12, 2004

...Spain's opposition Socialist Party (PSOE) leader said Thursday that if he wins a March 14 general election he will withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq at the end of June unless a UN-led force takes charge.

Thank you.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

Doomstone
06-22-2004, 04:40 PM
Mojo,

I re-read what I wrote before and it came out poorly. I don't think you're an idiot, you know this. Shit, compared to many here you're a regular Einstein. However, I will stand by my point that, hyperbole aside, Spain was in no way "bending" to terrorists.

Again, I apologize for my earlier remarks...

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TheMojoPin
06-22-2004, 04:45 PM
I appreciate the apology.

I can somewhat understand what you're THINKING I may be implying with the use of "bending," but I can only assure that it was the only thing I could think of at a moment's notice when I made that post. I don't really feel overly critical (If at all) towards the actions of the Spanish government or the Spanish people in this matter. I was really just trying to point out that acts like the beheading of the SK citizen could cause that country to shift in their current policy towards the Iraq war.

Holy cow, I think we just had a civil ending in the politics forum.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

HBox
06-22-2004, 05:11 PM
Holy cow, I think we just had a civil ending in the politics forum.

I don't think so! Doomstone was talking shit bout your mom behind your back! OH SNAP!

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A.J.
06-23-2004, 01:35 PM
Holy cow, I think we just had a civil ending in the politics forum.

Let the Era of Good Feelings begin!

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