Poll about torture [Archive] - RonFez.net Messageboard

Doomstone

06-05-2004, 02:28 AM

To those who think it's OK under certain circumstances:

Is this OK for other countries as well, or only for the United States?

Would you have any moral objections if the Iraqis or the Taliban using torture against American soldiers during our wars against them?

That's the simple moral test. We accept that our enemies in war have the moral right to try to kill us because we're doing the same thing to them. Likewise, they also have the moral right to torture information out of our soldiers if we're doing the same to them.

You can't have it both ways.

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Katylina

06-05-2004, 04:47 AM

I am totally AGAINST torture. How can one human being purposefully make another human being suffer? I am not very religous, but to torture someone must lead a path straight down to hell.

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sr71blackbird

06-05-2004, 05:16 AM

Normally Im inclined to agree that it is reprehensible, but since the enemy is not following that rule, the gloves come off. I believe that in every war ever fought there is some torture going on either side. It is the reason why war is "hell". What I think makes this seem like such a polar issue is that we here, from our comfortable vantage point, far removed from where it is taking place, have the luxury to imagine what an ideal war is all about and should be fought like. But it is far from the reality of it.
Just to give an example, my friend is a fireman in the city. When the trade center was brought down, some of his buddys were in there and all of the firemen were frantically digging away there for months trying to find them. Its just what you do when "one of your own" is in distress. They do it for each other all the time. Its their way of honoring each other. Now, in this case, in a war zone, your troop buddys are in the same position. Your all out there helping each other, depending on each other to keep yourselves alive. When your buddy gets hit, you go nuts and want to hit the guy who hit him.
Wether the torture of these prisoners was "approved" from high up is another issue. But I can easily see why a guy in the army would be happy to take some agression out of the enemy if some of his buddys got killed. Im sure its the same for the enemy too.

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badorties

06-05-2004, 06:19 AM

i'd feel a little at ease with our military and questionable tactics lately, if this war had a little less private contractors running about ...

we've killed tens of thousands of 'others' in this war on 'terror' (still such a stupid concept) ... but seem to care more more the contextual actions of a bunch of poorly supervised 21 year olds acting like a bunch of frat boys ...

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schmega

06-05-2004, 06:44 AM

since the enemy is not following that rule, the gloves come off.

yeah, pretty much.

i dont know the effectiveness of torture as a means of extracting information. i just think since the enemy is sure as hell doing it to our soldiers, we'd be fools not to do the same.

JUST DONT FUCKIN TAKE PICTURES OR GET CAUGHT YOU FUCKWADS.

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Katylina

06-05-2004, 07:23 AM

I guess I've read so many books about the Plantagenets, Tudors etc. that I find torture disgusting. History is filled with these acts of torture, and I've read, in detail, about some of these acts (ie sticking a hot poker in the anus while being held down to burn out the insides; putting people in cages where they are not quite sitting but not quite standing for extended periods of time, so that the muscles are in complete agony; sleep deprivation; starvation etc.). I am guessing we are talking about physical torture when we vote in the poll, and I find it awful. As much as we hate out enemies, I could not stand to see any human at all put through torture.

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TheMojoPin

06-05-2004, 07:56 AM

Doomstone put it best.

We can either be the "good guys"...or not. Take your pick. There's no such thing as "good" torture.

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furie

06-05-2004, 08:13 AM

red is positive
black is negative

nuff said

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East Side Dave

06-05-2004, 08:18 AM

A.J.

06-05-2004, 10:20 AM

How can one human being purposefully make another human being suffer?

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A.J.

06-05-2004, 10:23 AM

As for the original question I say "define 'torture'." Is it like when a cop smacks a guy around during an interrogation? Is it like when we see Jack Bauer on "24" use threats and violence to get answers?

Maybe there are varying degrees that would be considered "acceptable". I don't really know.

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zoom2457

06-05-2004, 11:08 AM

Sometimes during an interrogation you need to use some minor violence to get the "perps" attention. This would be extremely useful if you had somebody that was unaccostumed to violence. For example, Martha Stewart, give her a few well placed smacks and you'll get your information. (just an example, I don't advocate hitting women)

But, if you escalate into torture (ie. hot pokers, battery cables), you won't get pure information. You'll just wind up with a crazy person willing to confess to anything just to get you to stop.

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TheMojoPin

06-05-2004, 11:31 AM

Like zoom said, and as someone quoted to earlier, torture (Above just smacking someone around) is no guarentee of reliable information. Seems pretty likely someone will just tell you what they think you want to hear if you're torturing them.

Torture seems more born of the captor's frustration and anger than any so-called "technique" for getting informaiton and intelligence.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 6-5-04 @ 3:32 PM

FUNKMAN

06-05-2004, 12:59 PM

being forced to make a human pyramid with other naked men would be too much torture for me...

just shoot me in the head

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reeshy

06-05-2004, 01:29 PM

being forced to make a human pyramid with other naked men would be too much torture for me...

I don't know...I think I could tough that one out....Alkey told me how to do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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KERMIT

06-05-2004, 01:38 PM

Normally I am not for it. But what the fuck else would work with these Fuckwads? They aren't afraid to die. With the way they live prison is a vacation for them. So what other way can u put fear into them but by them knowing that if they get caught they will suffer countless hours or days or what ever of pain.

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TheMojoPin

06-05-2004, 01:45 PM

Again, people trying to say "our" torture is somehow better than "their" torture. You can't have it both ways if you want to be on the "side of good," folks. We either stand for something or we don't. Do we back the pretext America is invading other countries to make peoples' lives better, or are just only less worse than the guy America kicked out? There is a clear choice here...none of this piddling around. You either take the easy route and submit to the notion of the quick payback with no guarenteed payoff except short term satisfaction, or you suck it up and lead by example.

Which is it?

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sr71blackbird

06-05-2004, 02:51 PM

But how do you lead by example? By being nice to them and making their detainment as comfortable as possible? Im not saying that I think it is something we as compassionate human beings do to these people to get them to talk or comply. See, I think at some point somone will say simply being in a jail cell is torture or bing deprived of your liberty to leave. Not saying that what happened in that jail was tolerable, I think it was plain stupid to allow it to happen and to document it.
Like others have said, some of these guys are willing to strap a bomb on and blow themselves up, or fly a plane into a building. They clearly arent afraid of death. But pain is another matter. Dying for their "cause" to them is a salvation. I think it will turn out that the images were probably used to show non cooperative detainees what "could" happen to them if they didnt spill the beans. At least I hope so.

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HBox

06-05-2004, 02:56 PM

I think it will turn out that the images were probably used to show non cooperative detainees what "could" happen to them if they didnt spill the beans. At least I hope so.

Umm, there were prisoners that died.

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sr71blackbird

06-05-2004, 03:01 PM

What I mean is, Im sure there was some abuse, and probably the images were shown to other detainees as a means to get them to talk. Im not saying it didnt happen, just that maybe it wasnt as bad as it was made out to be (like a continual thing).

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Doomstone

06-05-2004, 03:35 PM

What I mean is, Im sure there was some abuse, and probably the images were shown to other detainees as a means to get them to talk. Im not saying it didnt happen, just that maybe it wasnt as bad as it was made out to be (like a continual thing).

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/iraqis_tortured_abc-b.jpg

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/iraqis_tortured_abc-a.jpg

What fucking part of "Americans invaded their country and tortured people to DEATH" is so hard to understand?

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canofsoup15

06-05-2004, 04:05 PM

If I have to choose a side, I'm picking the dark side. Torture is wrong yes, but during war It's inevitable. If torturing prisoners can protect some of our own troops (enemy locations, mines, etc.) then I have to agree. If one enemies pain saves at least one of our own, then the torture has paid off.

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Yerdaddy

06-05-2004, 04:17 PM

If I have to choose a side, I'm picking the dark side. Torture is wrong yes, but during war It's inevitable. If torturing prisoners can protect some of our own troops (enemy locations, mines, etc.) then I have to agree. If one enemies pain saves at least one of our own, then the torture has paid off.

Not if it created more enemies and got more guys killed.

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canofsoup15

06-05-2004, 04:27 PM

Not if it created more enemies and got more guys killed.

That's where we fucked it up. Torture shouldn't be something televised, it should be hidden. Allowing other soldiers to take pictures was irresponsible and should not have been done. Had those photos never appeared, this thread probably would not have been made.

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Doomstone

06-05-2004, 04:36 PM

The Iraqis knew we were torturing them long before the photos came out.

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Yerdaddy

06-05-2004, 04:46 PM

The Iraqis knew we were torturing them long before the photos came out.

Give that man a lap dance.

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Heavy

06-05-2004, 05:16 PM

Allowing other soldiers to take pictures was irresponsible and should not have been done.

the "other" soldiers were doing it themselves

btw, I'm all for it

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TheMojoPin

06-05-2004, 05:43 PM

I'm sick of this notion of "no middle ground." Nobody's saying we have to "be nice" to enemy prisoners, so cut the bullshit strawman tactics. There's a clear difference between roughing someone up, tossing them in prison, treating them as prisoners...and then torture. To me, there's a clear fucking line and very clear choice people have to make to get there.

And someone find some kind of percentage for how much workable intelligence we've gotten from torture.

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Katylina

06-05-2004, 06:12 PM

Seems pretty likely someone will just tell you what they think you want to hear if you're torturing them.

In the Salem witch trials, they tortured the "witches" until they confessed their pact with Satan.

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Recyclerz

06-05-2004, 06:23 PM

Atlantic Monthly: The Dark Art of Interrogation (http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2003/10/bowden.htm)

Definitely worth the time to read; I'm not sure how long they keep old articles up on their site for free.

I'm sure there is a line to be drawn somewhere in the continuum from polite interrogation > torture > sadism for its own sake; personally I think there are some grey areas, depending on the context. The "ticking bomb" scenario seems like the most difficult for the drawing of bright lines.

In the article there is a discussion of the evolving standards in Israel, which would be the front lines for analyzing these kinds of issues. In brief, "real" torture is illegal but the interrogators are left to make their decisions (& face the consequences) depending on the context of the situation.

Eg. one bomb goes off, a suspect is captured and the cops think there is another bomb set to go off and the suspect knows about it. If the interrogator is convinced the only way to get information about the second bomb is to start smashing fingers with a hammer, he does so with the knowledge that he will be charged with a crime and forced to defend his actions in a court room.

I may be accused of moral relativism but it seems like that may be the least objectionable alternative these days.

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canofsoup15

06-05-2004, 07:00 PM

The Iraqis knew we were torturing them long before the photos came out.

Of course the Iraqi's would know, and some of them would take up military action against us for that reason. But had those photos not been published, and not taken in the first place, the amount of Iraqi's and other countries' people would've been alot less.

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Se7en

06-05-2004, 07:55 PM

Seems pretty likely someone will just tell you what they think you want to hear if you're torturing them.

In the Salem witch trials, they tortured the "witches" until they confessed their pact with Satan.

Goodie Proctor fucking deserved every bit of it, too.

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