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Yerdaddy
05-30-2004, 10:16 PM
Who's going to be worse?

It's already early, this will be the most expensive campaign in history, and the country is more polarized than it's been in 30 years. How bad will it get? And how will it effect your vote? And, most importantly, Radio Psychic what will be the worst ad of the campaign?

<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A3222-2004May30?language=printer" target="_blank">Scholars Say Campaign Is Making History With Often-Misleading Attacks </a>

(First 1/3 of the article, to include stats and examples from both campaigns.)

[quote]It was a typical week in the life of the Bush reelection machine.

Last Monday in Little Rock, Vice President Cheney said Democratic presidential candidate John F. Kerry "has questioned whether the war on terror is really a war at all" and said the senator from Massachusetts "promised to repeal most of the Bush tax cuts within his first 100 days in office."

On Tuesday, President Bush's campaign began airing an ad saying Kerry would scrap wiretaps that are needed to hunt terrorists.

The same day, the Bush campaign charged in a memo sent to reporters and through surrogates that Kerry wants to raise the gasoline tax by 50 cents.

On Wednesday and Thursday, as Kerry campaigned in Seattle, he was greeted by another Bush ad alleging that Kerry now opposes education changes that he supported in 2001.

The charges were all tough, serious -- and wrong, or at least highly misleading. Kerry did not question the war on terrorism, has proposed repealing tax cuts only for those earning more than $200,000, supports wiretaps, has not endorsed a 50-cent gasoline tax increase in 10 years, and continues to support the education changes, albeit with modifications.

Scholars and political strategists say the ferocious Bush assault on Kerry this spring has been extraordinary, both for the volume of attacks and for the liberties the president and his campaign have taken with the facts. Though stretching the truth is hardly new in a political campaign, they say the volume of negative charges is unprecedented -- both in speeches and in advertising.

Three-quarters of the ads aired by Bush's campaign have been attacks on Kerry. Bush so far has aired 49,050 negative ads in the top 100 markets, or 75 percent of his advertising. Kerry has run 13,336 negative ads -- or 27 percent of his total. The figures were compiled by The Washington Post using data from the Campaign Media Analysis Group of the top 100 U.S. markets. Both campaigns said the figures are accurate.

The assault on Kerry is multi-tiered: It involves television ads, news releases, Web sites and e-mail, and statements by Bush spokesmen and surrogates -- all coordinated to drive home the message that Kerry has equivocated and "flip-flopped" on Iraq, support for the military, taxes, education and other matters.

"There is more attack now on the Bush side against Kerry than you've historically had in the general-election period against either candidate," said University of Pennsylvania professor Kathleen Hall Jamieson, an authority on political communication. "This is a very high level of attack, particularly for an incumbent."

Brown University professor Darrell West, author of a book on political advertising, said Bush's level of negative advertising is already higher than the levels reached in the 2000, 1996 and 1992 campaigns. And because campaigns typically become more negative as the election nears, "I'm anticipating it's going to be the most negative campaign ever," eclipsing 1988, West said. "If you compare the early stage of campaigns, virtually none of the early ads were negative, even in '88."

In terms of the magnitude of the distortions, those who study political discourse say Bush's are no worse than those that have been done since, as Stanford University professor Shanto Iyengar put it, "the beginning of time."

Kerry, too, has made his own misleading statements and exaggerations. For example, he said in a speech last week about Iraq: "They have gone it alone when they should have assembled a

furie
05-30-2004, 10:33 PM
the democrats are incensed


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KERMIT
05-30-2004, 11:24 PM
Well the Democrats sure have alot of ammo this time.

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Doomstone
05-30-2004, 11:47 PM
I think the answer is obvious. Dubya has Karl Rove, the master of negative campaigning, the guy who convinced voters that John McCain was insane due to the torture he suffered at the hands of the Vietnamese, and that he fathered a black child out of wedlock.

We already saw a few months ago the bullshit about Kerry having an affair with an intern.

And you can't even mention John Kerry's name without hearing screams of "flip-flopper" and such from rabid bootlicking republizoids.

And then there's the whole "Kerry is not a good Catholic because he supports women's rights" line.

And so on, and so on...

The only thing the Kerry campaign needs to do is focus on the facts. When you're up against one of the worst presidents in the history of our country, the facts are always on your side.



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CruelCircus
05-31-2004, 02:02 AM
We already saw a few months ago the bullshit about Kerry having an affair with an intern.
Didn't Wesley Clark start, and people in Howard Dean's camp feed, that rumor?

And you can't even mention John Kerry's name without hearing screams of "flip-flopper"
Fairly well-deserved, no?

And then there's the whole "Kerry is not a good Catholic because he supports women's rights" line.
That's not Bush- that's come down straight from the Vatican.

I guess my big question would be what exactly is defined as a negative ad?
Is it pointing out an actual position the other guy has taken and saying it's wrong? Because I wouldn't call that negative, I don't have a problem with ads that call out a candidate's record.
I think the term "negative" should be considered for personal attacks/name-calling, non-political attacks on the candidate's family, or outright false accusations.

Pointing out that John Kerry testified against the Vietnam War, or that he said "I actually voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it." for example, in my mind isn't negative- it's what happened.


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How do you like it so far?

HBox
05-31-2004, 02:21 AM
Fairly well-deserved, no?

# Bush is against campaign finance reform; then he's for it.
# Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it.
# Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he's for it.
# Bush is against an Iraq WMD investigation; then he's for it.
# Bush is against nation building; then he's for it.
# Bush is against deficits; then he's for them.
# Bush is for free trade; then he's for tariffs on steel; then he's against them again.
# Bush is against the U.S. taking a role in the Israeli Palestinian conflict; then he pushes for a "road map" and a Palestinian State.
# Bush is for states right to decide on gay marriage, then he is for changing the constitution.
# Bush first says he'll provide money for first responders (fire, police, emergency), then he doesn't.
# Bush first says that 'help is on the way' to the military ... then he cuts benefits
# Bush-"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. Bush-"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care.
# Bush claims to be in favor of the environment and then secretly starts drilling on Padre Island.
# Bush talks about helping education and increases mandates while cutting funding.
# Bush first says the U.S. won't negotiate with North Korea. Now he will
# Bush goes to Bob Jones University. Then say's he shouldn't have.
# Bush said he would demand a U.N. Security Council vote on whether to sanction military action against Iraq. Later Bush announced he would not call for a vote
# Bush said the "mission accomplished" banner was put up by the sailors. Bush later admits it was his advance team.
# Bush was for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the US. Bush after meeting with Pres. Fox, he's against it.

Somebody certainly deserves something.

Tall_James
05-31-2004, 05:02 AM
Bush was for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the US. Bush after meeting with Pres. Fox, he's against it.

Can you blame him? Fox tried to steal several ashtrays from the White House when he last visited.


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Teenweek
05-31-2004, 05:39 AM
Negative campaign ads

Pot meet Kettle

http://www.moveon.org/front/

Snoogans
05-31-2004, 05:56 AM
yea i get pissed when i see those dumbass commercials where the mom takes the kids bag and starts screaming about how messed up it is. those commercials are so bad it makes me wanna smoke

as far as the topic, i dont pay much attention, but from what i noticed, the commercials bashin kerry have been a little worse


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Mike Teacher
05-31-2004, 06:28 AM
Historically, these are a mere shadow of some of the smear campaigns of prez elections in the past. Ham and Egger stuff.

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42nd-delay
05-31-2004, 08:49 AM
Historically, these are a mere shadow of some of the smear campaigns of prez elections in the past. Ham and Egger stuff.


Perhaps, but we've also got five months to go.

I tend to feel like the GOP strategy in recent elections has been to mislead or even lie about an opponent to gain an advantage. The Washington Post article suggests that they're on their way with that strategy again.

------------------------------
"42nd-delay is the only person who's making sense." - Ron, 3-12-02

TheMojoPin
05-31-2004, 09:34 AM
That's not Bush- that's come down straight from the Vatican.

No, it hasn't. It's so far primarily come from a bishop here in America and one over in Africa. The Vatican has been pretty much quiet throughout this whole affair.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-31-04 @ 1:36 PM

HBox
05-31-2004, 10:31 AM
In this race, each candidate's biggest asset is the other guy. This is going to be brutal.

furie
05-31-2004, 04:21 PM
# Bush is against a Homeland Security Department;


untrue


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HBox
05-31-2004, 05:01 PM
untrue

Oh yes he was. He (correctly in my opinion) thought that adding another department would just add to the confusion and bureaucracy that was already hampering homeland defense. Bush had wanted Tom Ridge to head an executive office to oversee much of the Homeland Security operations. But Congress was about to push through a bill called the Lieberman bill that would create a new department despite his misgivings. It was a certianty that it was going to pass both houses of Congress. Bush didn't want the bill that made the Homeland Security department named after Lieberman. So, before they could pass that bill, Bush dropped his opposition to a new department, wrote a slightly different bill called the Homeland Security Act, and passed it before the Lieberman bill.

Se7en
05-31-2004, 05:26 PM
The entire premise of this thread is flaw.

Each side is going to be absolutely brutal. For every negative thing that the Republicans say about Kerry / Democrats, you can find the equal number of negative comments from Democratic sources likening Bush to Hitler, etc.

Trying to somehow prove one side as being worse than the other is retarded. Each is going to be as vicious as they can be, and by November I think most people are going to be desensitized by it all, on both sides of the spectrum.

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I look forward to an orderly election that will eliminate the need for a violent bloodbath. </center>

furie
05-31-2004, 06:05 PM
untrue

Oh yes he was. He (correctly in my opinion) thought that adding another department would just add to the confusion and bureaucracy that was already hampering homeland defense. Bush had wanted Tom Ridge to head an executive office to oversee much of the Homeland Security operations. But Congress was about to push through a bill called the Lieberman bill that would create a new department despite his misgivings. It was a certianty that it was going to pass both houses of Congress. Bush didn't want the bill that made the Homeland Security department named after Lieberman. So, before they could pass that bill, Bush dropped his opposition to a new department, wrote a slightly different bill called the Homeland Security Act, and passed it before the Lieberman bill.



no. Bush called for the creation a Homeland Security in September 01. He intended it to be mainly for inteligence desemination. And he placed Ridge as a new cabnet member as the Homeland secuirty Czar, 2 months before Liberman announced his plan. Liberman's bill was to create a department that would place almost all agencies under it, to eliminate infighting. Bush didn't agree with that plan so he put forth his own. and in the end, the DHS we got was was neither's vison.


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Yerdaddy
05-31-2004, 06:12 PM
likening Bush to Hitler, etc.
This claim of yours is diffuse, long-winded, palaverous, prolix, verbose, windy, extra, spare, superfluous, supernumerary, surplus, iterating, reiterating, repetitious and most of all redundant.

Why don't you go back to complaining about comparisons between Iraq and Vietnam for a while?

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Fuck it from behind.

HBox
05-31-2004, 06:14 PM
no. Bush called for the creation a Homeland Security in September 01. He intended it to be mainly for inteligence desemination. And he placed Ridge as a new cabnet member as the Homeland secuirty Czar, 2 months before Liberman announced his plan. Liberman's bill was to create a department that would place almost all agencies under it, to eliminate infighting. Bush didn't agree with that plan so he put forth his own. and in the end, the DHS we got was was neither's vison.

That's what I was saying. Bush didn't want a department initially, he wanted Ridge to work as a cabinet member, and thought the creation of a new department would be counter-intuitive. That was detailed in Richard Clarke's book. But, in the end, he proposed the creation of a department of homeland security.

Yes, it's a cheap flip-flop. But that list wasn't meant to be taken seriously. It was just a satire of the silly accusations the Bush campaign is throwing out there. If they can use votes on a gas tax from 15 years ago, I can quibble over this stupid shit.

This message was edited by HBox on 5-31-04 @ 10:15 PM

FUNKMAN
05-31-2004, 07:20 PM
In my opinion the 'negative' campaigning is the most embarrassing thing for our country. Our leaders try to preach a message of 'tolerance, respect, and equality' towards each other 'when they are in office' but while campaigning, on NATIONAL TV which then probably gets broadcast on International TV, they act like children and throw insults and other degrading remarks.

Can you honestly say that you buy into anything a candidate says while they are campaigning?

It has become a big fucking joke!

just not a funny one!

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42nd-delay
05-31-2004, 08:41 PM
A site related to this discussion...

FactCheck.org (http://www.factcheck.org/default.aspx)

Nonpartisan group that keeps track of the accuracy of candidates' ads.

------------------------------
"42nd-delay is the only person who's making sense." - Ron, 3-12-02

This message was edited by 42nd-delay on 6-1-04 @ 12:43 AM

TheMojoPin
05-31-2004, 09:02 PM
To add what 42nd was suggesting...

Always check your spin with SpinSanity.com (http://www.spinsanity.com) and dig through the slinged mud.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 6-1-04 @ 1:03 AM

CruelCircus
06-01-2004, 05:00 AM
Fairly well-deserved, no?

[font=Century gothic][color=navy][size=2] # Bush is against campaign finance reform; then he's for it.
# Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it.
# Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he's for it....
H-Box, what does any of this have to do with whether or not Kerry has earned HIS flip-flop label?


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It's your life.
How do you like it so far?

CruelCircus
06-01-2004, 05:07 AM
No, it hasn't. It's so far primarily come from a bishop here in America and one over in Africa. The Vatican has been pretty much quiet throughout this whole affair.
My mother works for a parish out on LI. She spends a great deal of time with the priests there, especially the Monsignor, as well as interacting with the administration at the Diocese.
It's my understanding that those bishops (Chicago?) have not spoken out of the blue- that this "stand" is being suggested down through the hierarchy and is essentially the Vatican's policy.
Either way, Bush and the RNC had nothing to do with it.


<br>
<img src="http://pw2.netcom.com/~jjmace/gifs/cruel.jpg"><br><br>
It's your life.
How do you like it so far?

HBox
06-01-2004, 07:09 AM
H-Box, what does any of this have to do with whether or not Kerry has earned HIS flip-flop label?

It's just the pot calling the kettle black.

TheMojoPin
06-01-2004, 09:01 AM
No, it hasn't. It's so far primarily come from a bishop here in America and one over in Africa. The Vatican has been pretty much quiet throughout this whole affair.
My mother works for a parish out on LI. She spends a great deal of time with the priests there, especially the Monsignor, as well as interacting with the administration at the Diocese.
It's my understanding that those bishops (Chicago?) have not spoken out of the blue- that this "stand" is being suggested down through the hierarchy and is essentially the Vatican's policy.
Either way, Bush and the RNC had nothing to do with it.

You're very right, Bush and the Republicans don't have anything to do with it. But at the same time, there's been nothing said or done by the Vatican to conclusively link them to any kind of "push" to talk down Kerry and his politics, nor have any church officials officially claimed they were sanctioned by the "top office"...at least not the one here on Earth.

And if they DID "officially" speak out, I can't think of anything stupider they could do for the candidate they support. Remember Kennedy taking shots because of his Catholicism, because it meant the Vatican would have his ear? Bush isn't Catholic, but you could essentially spin an official Vatican endorsement/denouncement that way, and it could be VERY damaging for the "chosen" candidate.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

HBox
06-13-2004, 11:24 AM
That's not Bush- that's come down straight from the Vatican.

There was an article in today's NY Times about this. This argument that Bush has nothing to do with it has just fallen by the way side.

On his recent trip to Rome, President Bush asked a top Vatican official to push American bishops to speak out more about political issues, including same-sex marriage, according to a report in the National Catholic Reporter, an independent newspaper.

In a column posted Friday evening on the paper's Web site, John L. Allen Jr., its correspondent in Rome and the dean of Vatican journalists, wrote that Mr. Bush had made the request in a June 4 meeting with Cardinal Angelo Sodano, the Vatican secretary of state. Citing an unnamed Vatican official, Mr. Allen wrote: "Bush said, 'Not all the American bishops are with me' on the cultural issues. The implication was that he hoped the Vatican would nudge them toward more explicit activism."

Mr. Allen wrote that others in the meeting confirmed that the president had pledged aggressive efforts "on the cultural front, especially the battle against gay marriage, and asked for the Vatican's help in encouraging the U.S. bishops to be more outspoken." Cardinal Sodano did not respond, Mr. Allen reported, citing the same unnamed people.

Here's the link if you're registered, (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/13/politics/13george.html)

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FUNKMAN
06-13-2004, 12:18 PM
It has become a big fucking joke!

just not a funny one!


and an expensive one at that. what do they spend? how many millions...

unattainable idea here:

tv time should be free for each candidate and each should get an equal amount of time.

NOOOOO! They have to pay millions of dollars so the cast of friends can get paid a million bucks an episode. I watched that show maybe once and it was a rerun...

countries going to hell in a hen basket, whatever that is...

but i'm not bitter
:)

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