Soviet Socialist Republic of . . . New Jersey?

[blakjeezis]

It's coming soon enough. There is a tax plan set to be implemented that will levy a "Millionaire Tax" against households that earn more than $500,000 annually. This money is slated be given to low-income households, and I'm sorry I don't know what the cutoff point of these low-income households is. But nevertheless, these households will receive the money in the form of a tax rebate. Over-taxing the rich is nothing new, but this money isn't going to fund social programs or education or anything like that.

While I do stand to benefit from this; I will never earn 500 grand a year. Shit, I would consider myself doing extremely well if I got a salary of more than 10% of that, but that doesn't change what this really is. Whether you're fer it or agin' it, you have to admit that this is nothing short of a direct re-distribution of wealth. How long before the government takes over manufacturing and we're calling each other 'Comrade'?

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-22-04 @ 12:41 PM

[HBox]

How long before the government takes over manufacturing and we're calling each other 'Comrade'?

Not soon enough my friend!

[TheMojoPin]

FINALLY...plan D is in effect.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Yerdaddy]

What do you call tax cuts that give higher cuts to the rich than the poor with the half-baked theory that the rich will use the money to give the poor jobs? Even though the republican congress shot down an ammendment that would have conditioned the cuts to target investment in employment and infrastructure that actually does create jobs? It's just as likely that that the tax cuts were used to finance outsourcing of jobs as to create jobs domestically.

It's all a tug-of-war. Everybody's trying to get a break on taxes, and whoever plays the game right wins. But that's a capitalism game as much as it is a communism one. I wouldn't sweat it.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[A.J.]

"Is like Soviet Russia!"

http://www.grabow.biz/images/Yakov%20Smirnoff.jpg

<img src=http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Canofsoup15/Sigs/AJinDC-Sig.jpg>

A Skidmark/canofsoup15 production.

Red Sox Nation

[HBox]

"In Soviet Russia, taxes cut you!"

[blakjeezis]

What do you call tax cuts that give higher cuts to the rich than the poor

I don't call it takng money from the people who earned it, and just giving it to those who didn't. Well maybe earned it isn't necessarily the right word. A lot of them earned it, some of them inherited it. Either way though, it is still their money, and they're entitled to it.

I'm all for the rich bearing a larger tax burden than the poor. It only makes sense. I don't think that 'Voodoo' economics works either, but that doesn't make this any more or less fair, free, or Capitalist.

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-22-04 @ 1:21 PM

[Mike Teacher]

theory that the rich will use the money to give the poor jobs?


That theory is so well in practice in some places competition is getting upset. The hispanic community here is fighting for the right to keep muster zones for day laborers. The lawn services who do everones lawn in the rich towns around here get mad money from those people, and if the middleman is cheating them out, well, thats the poor stealing from he poor.

The hispanics love it. they work for anyone who will pay them a fair wage, and are utilized nicely by exactly those Richy Rich peeps around here for housecleaning, babysitting, food service, and a few others i cant remember.

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This message was edited by Mike Teacher on 5-22-04 @ 1:42 PM

[schmega]

well hey, you're so concerned about keeping rich folks wallets fat, why not vote your lawmakers out? i'm sure the upper class will totally thank you for it.

you dont like the 're-distribution of wealth', then lets cut all social services for whoever the fuck and let everyone make it on their own because we all know this world's fair.

http://gilseed.home.acedsl.com/sig.jpg

[blakjeezis]

Alright check it out, retard strength, read this again. Maybe it'll sink in this time.


I'm all for the rich bearing a larger tax burden than the poor. It only makes sense.


Social Services and things of that nature that take tax money and put it into programs and governmental offices that benefit everyone who needs them equally (at least in theory, but that's for another thread) are more than acceptable. They are a necessary part of a successful country. Taking money from one group of people and just giving it to another group of people is reprehensible. I make less money than you, so I'm gonna go to your bank and withdraw some cash from your account. Is that cool?

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-22-04 @ 1:51 PM

[schmega]

same difference Angry Angerton. make up your mind. you want fair? dont give anyone any handouts. thats fair. how's social services ANY DIFFERENT from this? its money going from one end and out the other, and never in reverse.

dont you have better things to bitch about than something that'll NEVER affect you?

http://gilseed.home.acedsl.com/sig.jpg

[BrianTheBailBondsman]

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:Ryb1ByDDeN0J:logo.cafepress.com/0/641667

<center><img src="http://www.proworldinc.com/images/A1/20/A12020A.jpg" width="128" height="100" border="3" alt=""></a></center>

[blakjeezis]

I'm not angry, just correct.


dont you have better things to bitch about than something that'll NEVER affect you

Am I to assume, by that logic, that it directly affects you? Or should we just wait until we are affected to do something?

I have said this before. Most of the things that our government does will have little to no effect on the day to day running of the average American's personal life. Does gay marriage affect me, day to day? No. Does abortion affect me, day to day? No, and hopefully never will. Does the war in Iraq affect me, day to day? Potentially, but my daily life hasn't changed significantly since it began. Does gun control affect me? No.

Business is what really keeps this country running, not the government. Shit, the federal government closes down from time to time when the budget is all fucked up, and the country doesn't collapse. That's not the point.

Government spending on public assistance programs can help everyone. A millionaire can walk down the street to the free clinic. The army fights for the rich and the poor. Welfare and WIC are available to anyone who needs them. I'm not saying they're all implemented and run correctly, once again this is all in theory. But they are different than taking someone's money from them and handing it to someone else.

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

[schmega]

But they are different than taking someone's money from them and handing it to someone else.

if you're so correct, explain that. how is it any different, really? its paid for by tax dollars. and ideally, the rich have a bigger burden. the rich are supposed to pay a bigger part of these programs that benefit low-income households. go read what you wrote at the top. thats exactly what this tax does.

you're probably more likely to know a gay person, woman, soldier, gun owner/victim, than some sonofabitch that makes over half a mil a year. so yeah, those issues affect you. taxing the rich doesnt.

http://gilseed.home.acedsl.com/sig.jpg

[furie]

Finally! This is great! Communism is the way to go. It's always worked out well before.


<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/furie1335/.Pictures/rf%20sigs/furiefish.jpg" height=100 width=300">

[blakjeezis]

It's different because it's a burden everybody bares. Everybody pays taxes. Taxes go towards programs everybody can use. The tax system is fucked up and the burden doesn't affect different people the way it should, but that's neither here nor there, as far as this argument is concerned. This is punishing a select few for being wealthy, and rewarding a select few for being poor. If you wanna say that everyone's money goes in a big pile and is distributed evenly among everyone, true Communism; while I don't agree with it; it fails to take in account human nature, the theories of Adam Smith, and the benefit of competition to drive excellence, at least it's fair. Does it make sense yet?



you're probably more likely to know a gay person, woman, soldier, gun owner/victim, than some sonofabitch that makes over half a mil a year. so yeah, those issues affect you. taxing the rich doesnt.

You've failed to demonstrate how those issues affect me. They may affect people I know, but that's not me. Also, why is someone a "sonofabitch" if he makes half a mil a year?

And taxing the rich in this way does affect me. A higher salary is the reward for excelling at what you do, basically. Excelling at what you do, whether you're a garbage man or a doctor, is for the betterment of everyone in a society. If his higher salary is going to be taken away from my doctor or garbage man, then what is his drive to excel in his chosen career, thus then making my life and everyone else's better?

Edit: And as a matter of fact, I probably do know more $500,000+ people than, soldiers, gun owners/victims, gays (both flavors), but maybe not women. It's irrelevant anyway.

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-22-04 @ 3:03 PM

[BrianTheBailBondsman]

I say he is ANGRY<P>http://www.merlincarothers.com/nov02/angry.gif<P> Besides why get upset? no one is going to do anything to change it. we are all cattle living the way the man wants us.

<center><img src="http://www.proworldinc.com/images/A1/20/A12020A.jpg" width="128" height="100" border="3" alt=""></a></center>

[TheMojoPin]

I'm sick of that damn money bin ruining the beautiful Duckburg skyline! TAX AWAY!

http://www.americanroyalarts.com/library/dl139.jpg

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[blakjeezis]

Dude, you can't stop Scrooge. Tax all you want, as long as he keeps a hold of his number one dime, he'll always be back.

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

[TheMojoPin]

Are you kidding? Once we get a Democrat back in the White House, the Beagle Boys are all gonna be back on the streets and after his scratch in full force!

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[blakjeezis]

John Kerry just announced his running mate.

http://www.lambdapsiphi.com/daft/daft/images/dtopen8.jpg

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-22-04 @ 3:43 PM

[Mike Teacher]

you're probably more likely to know a gay person, woman, soldier, gun owner/victim, than some sonofabitch that makes over half a mil a year. so yeah, those issues affect you. taxing the rich doesnt.


True, but I'd say around some of the places where R+F can be heard [insert Malcolm X here; By Any Means Necesary] the chances are about as high as its gonna get.

I'm in a fairly middle class place/edging on upper-middle, but man oh man some of the towns around here? and in north jersey? holy shit I think Somerset county, where i went to school grades 3-12 sits nicely in the top 20 wealthiest counties in the country.

Sure wish I was one of 'em.

And I dont know the numbers, so someone with a clue please correct me, but the inheritance tax is already what? 50%? neighborhood?

Hey some say you got $100 million, whats wrong with $50? mill, and i might agree, but that a fucking nut for a parent who worked his ass off and maybe made some big bucks on a hot streak so yeah, he's rich for a while, but then the IRS lands.

Ugh I dont know whats worse, taxes, or discussion of same. ack.

Oh, and did you know the IRS actually uses the word "Voluntray" to describe the tax system? Page 2 or 3 of the 1040 Manual; unless i'm mistaken.

[edit; that would be VOLUNTARY. i suck. i'm not even correcting it. oh wait i just did. but not really...]
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This message was edited by Mike Teacher on 5-22-04 @ 3:29 PM

[HBox]

They should call this the 'Half a Millionaire" tax. And I'd agree with Blakjeezis's sentiments 100 million percent if there was a real living wage in this country. As it is, it's just one less ivory backscratcher.

http://pc59te.dte.uma.es/cdb/series/fox/bitmaps/burns.jpg

So let's just hope in the meantime he doesn't steal the sun.

[blakjeezis]

Ben Affleck is trying as hard as he can!!! Give the guy a break, wouldja? Rome wasn't burnt overnight.



And just to put a capper on my whole argument here. Just what is it that took America from being a rabble of agrarian, backwoods, country bumpkin colonies to a global superpower after WWI and the singularly most powerful, richest, and greatest country in the world today? An overabundance of natural resources, and immigration, the spirit of independence, freedom, and competition driven by Democracy and Capitalism. This tax runs completely counter to all of those things, and if it's a taste of things to come I'm afraid we'll collapse from internal struggle long before we have to worry about any exterior or international threat.

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-22-04 @ 4:27 PM

[BrianTheBailBondsman]

Might I sujgest some easy reading while we ponder what to do?<br>http://www.turning.ca/images/churchill-acts-of-rebellion.jpg<P> does thise site have spell checker yet?

<center><img src="http://www.proworldinc.com/images/A1/20/A12020A.jpg" width="128" height="100" border="3" alt=""></a></center>

[ChickenHawk]

<IMG SRC="http://www.npr.org/news/specials/cuban_missile/castro_kruschev.jpg">

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HORDE KING FOREVER!!! ORACLE NEVER!!!
<strike>Shock</strike>
<marquee behavior=alternate><font size=2><b>EMFA</b></font></marquee>

[schmega]

stop throwing around the words 'fair' and 'communism'. neither one truly applies in this case. its not really fair to tax the rich more than the poor, but its not communism either. at the end of the day, the rich are still rich, and the poor gets a little more help. a state like nj can afford to do that. i'm sure you'd be a bit less upset if you were unfortunate enough to be in the tax bracket that'll benefit from this.

were you all up in arms about Clinton raising taxes in '93? the one that brought us years of prosperity? and made a lot of people a lot of money?

you need to get a hold of yourself if you think THIS is gonna make us 'collapse from internal struggle'.

http://gilseed.home.acedsl.com/sig.jpg

[reeshy]

http://www.redarmyonline.org/files/folllow_me.jpg

[center]<IMG SRC=http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:2nq89tfFOH0J:www.freewebs.com/teejo/odd/zapmem.jpg>
Ich liebe dich, Arschloch!!!!
[center]

[TheMojoPin]

Ben Affleck is trying as hard as he can!!! Give the guy a break, wouldja? Rome wasn't burnt overnight.

He's gotta stop the Moonraper first.

http://www.twcdc.com/programs/che/che_black_sticker.gif

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[blakjeezis]

stop throwing around the words 'fair' and 'communism'. neither one truly applies in this case. its not really fair to tax the rich more than the poor, but its not communism either. at the end of the day, the rich are still rich, and the poor gets a little more help. a state like nj can afford to do that. i'm sure you'd be a bit less upset if you were unfortunate enough to be in the tax bracket that'll benefit from this.


You know, this could have been a fun, lively discussion if you actually read what I write, and respond to it. Taxing the rich for social progframs isn't Communism. Overt re-distribution of wealth, which is what this tax is doing, is.

Now I'll give you a shot to re-read what I wrote, with a little emphasis on a part you must have skipped over:



And just to put a capper on my whole argument here. Just what is it that took America from being a rabble of agrarian, backwoods, country bumpkin colonies to a global superpower after WWI and the singularly most powerful, richest, and greatest country in the world today? An overabundance of natural resources, and immigration, the spirit of independence, freedom, and competition driven by Democracy and Capitalism. This tax runs completely counter to all of those things, and if it's a taste of things to come I'm afraid we'll collapse from internal struggle long before we have to worry about any exterior or international threat.


The USSR had, and its descendant states still have, an insane supply of natural resources, unmatched by any other nation on Earth, and yet the the Soviet Union still fell. It's true the pressure placed on the Soviets by both the space and arms races hastened the crumbling. Even without those external factors, though, the country and system would have failed. Why? Simple enough - Eventually people get tired of being starving. Ask Nicholas II, he'll tell you all about it.

I don't know how many different ways to say this. We live in an imperfect world, full of imperfect people, and run by imperfect rulers. The only system that really works is the one that encourages people to excell on their own. Removing the reward, the drive, the reason to excell destroys the system and the society. Some people fall through the cracks. For a variety of reasons they fail. We, as a country, should do as much as we can to help them get on their feet and try again. Just taking money from those who have it and giving it to those who don't is not the way to do that. Why doesn't that make sense to you?!?

I asked you this already, but you didn't answer so I'll rephrase it. Since you feel so strongly that this tax is reasonable and acceptable, let's do this. Assuming I make less money than you do (which I probably do, I'm fucking poor), feel free to PM me with your bank name, routing, account, and PIN numbers and I'll get some cash from you. Show me the strength of your convictions, that you really believe what your saying, and maybe I'll buy into it. Probably not, but at least I'll be able to get that big screen I've had my eye on.

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-22-04 @ 10:21 PM

[HBox]

Assuming I make less money than you do (which I probably do, I'm fucking poor), feel free to PM me with your bank name, routing, account, and PIN numbers and I'll get some cash from you.

Come on. I'm with you, this guy ain't reading what you're writing. But this is taking it too far. By that logic, if you think you are paying too little taxes, you have to send more money to the government or you aren't standing by your convictions. One person doing something doesn't make a difference.

This message was edited by HBox on 5-22-04 @ 10:36 PM

[blakjeezis]

But this is taking it too far. By that logic, if you think you are paying too little taxes, you have to send more money to the government or you aren't standing by your convictions.


I don't think it is taking it too far. I'm not talking about taxes i'm talking about wealth re-distribution. If you really want to help poor people, you don't think the government is doing a good enough job, and think that wealth re-distribution is the answer, then you should be out on the street giving a 20 to every bum you see. Or, you should drop out of this evil, Capitalist society and go live in a Utopian commune upstate where you and all the other residents can share labor, share eggs, and bitch and moan that you're the one doing all the work, milking the goat and whatnot, while everyone else is smoking herb, napping, and listening to the Jerry Garcia studio sessions.

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-22-04 @ 10:51 PM

[schmega]

wtf are social services if not a distribution of wealth? this is more overt, but its not communism. the entire playing field isnt being leveled. only the ones in the fiscal stratosphere are paying, and when its over, they're still up there, making more money than you or i ever will. and they'll continue to want to make more, because they still keep enough of it to live better than most people.

is this reasonable? no. but neither were the ridiculous tax breaks the upper class received from gw.

if you're so righteous, dont ever take any kind of handout, ever. live completely on your own ability. and if you run into a string of bad luck, too bad. sucks to be you.

http://gilseed.home.acedsl.com/sig.jpg

[Mike Teacher]

why do i read everything, nodding my head in agreement, and people are fighting? ok not fight but anyway, I read, slowly, what everyone wrote. My two cents. Get it? Taxes? Two Cents? geh geh geh geh

----

I think the tax code, the actual book; has growing not quite exponentially, but to a staggering, staggering complexity. I was listening to a talk radio financial show [bob brinker?] and he gave out the numbers, and my jaw was hitting the brake pedal as I drove.

From those who say they know, and I listen to and trust in this stuff they say two things should be addressed before Any of this:

1. Chucking aforementioned Tax code for something MUCH simpler, and i mean Much. Whats Forbe's flat rate? Shit i'm too lazy to Google mid post; I guess 14%. Ok fine. Thats simple. One line simple.

Somewhere in the middle, actually closer to Forbes I'd say, is a Must.

2. In terms of cheats, Welfare and Medicare Crawl. Its absolute HEAVEN for the perpetrators of Fraud. They leak like sieves [sic?], and it's Huge. Again, I'm clueless on the numbers, but its so much plugging even a small percentage of this would save a shitload.

Someone fill in those blanks; i'm clueless. Business Degree undergrad, but that and $4.00 will get you a gallon of Gas.

But I know what the Laffer Curve is! <--who will get the movie reference.

[Edit: And I think it should be known that this is how little of a life I have this weekend. Its just before 11pm saturday night, and here I am, typing about the Laffer Curve on my computer. I feel like Squeak 'Little Bitch' Scolari. I should be bangin Cocktail Waiteresses two at a Time. This no booze thing sometimes fucking sucks!]



<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/newsig">

This message was edited by Mike Teacher on 5-22-04 @ 10:58 PM

[HBox]

where you and all the other residents can share labor, share eggs, and bitch and moan that you're the one doing all the work, milking the goat and whatnot, while everyone else is smoking herb, napping, and listening to the Jerry Garcia studio sessions.

DAMN RIGHT! THOSE FUCKING LAZY HIPPIES! WHY I AM THE ONLY CHURNS BUTTER AROUND HERE!!

[HBox]

In terms of cheats, Welfare and Medicare Crawl. Its absolute HEAVEN for the perpetrators of Fraud. They leak like sieves [sic?], and it's Huge. Again, I'm clueless on the numbers, but its so much plugging even a small percentage of this would save a shitload.

Welfare is not a problem. Never really was, but even less so now. Right now, welfare is less than 1% of total government spending.

As for a real tax cut, let's start discussing FICA taxes. They haven't been changed since I can remember and are extremely REGRESSIVE. People don't pay any FICA taxes for earnings over something like $96,000. None, nothing. You could remove that cap, cut the rate and in the process cut taxes for the VAST VAST majority of tax payers while remaing revenue neutral. Or just remove the cap, leave the rate the same and give Social Security a badly needed boost.

Why don't we ever hear about it? Because it's such a non-issue to rich people, and anything done to it would likely make them pay more taxes. When I hear a Republican say he's concerned about taxes on the middle and lower class and then actually mention this, that's when I'll start taking them seriously.

This message was edited by HBox on 5-22-04 @ 11:05 PM

[blakjeezis]

welfare is less than 1% of total government spending.

Yeah, but what's 1% of Eleventy bajillion zillion dollars.



only the ones in the fiscal stratosphere are paying, and when its over, they're still up there, making more money than you or i ever will. and they'll continue to want to make more, because they still keep enough of it to live better than most people.

There's a lot of venom in there towards wealthy people. I see that a lot from the 'lefty loosey', 'tax and spend' types. Like the rich are somehow evil, deserving of scorn, undeserving of their wealth, and less human than poor people.

I may as well just quote and re-post everythig I've already said, save my hand for my, ahem, dating pursuits. I've said that social services and taxing the rich, though they are forms of re-distribution, are both necessary parts of the social contract, because the outcome benefits the whole society. Simple wealth re-distribution punishes one group unjustly, rewards another unfairly, and undermines our entire way of life.

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

[schmega]

oh i get it, its ok to reach into their pockets a little, but if you ask for more, then you're automatically a communist, and the american way of life is threatened. at least this tax is HONEST and upfront about where the money's going. and thats what bothers you? because some line has been crossed? my line's further, and apparently, so are nj's lawmakers.

i have no venom towards the rich, but i have even less sympathy for them. i've agreed this is unreasonable, but this tax is just an extension of the way its been in this country since the New Deal. and we've been ok since. and we all know at the end, the rich find ways of paying less tax. ways regular folks have no means of attaining.

http://gilseed.home.acedsl.com/sig.jpg

[TheMojoPin]

Wow, I'm actually really digging this thread.

HBox, schmega and bj are all making really good points, a lot of which I agree on...and Mike the T's coming out of left field with some good info of his own.

Basically, I haven't been able to find enough data on this new tax in Jersey, so bj, if you have a link to a site that really explains the specifics, I'd appreciate it.

It's definitely walking a fine line between what schmega and bj are arguing, so I'm real curious to see what it actually entails.

In the meantime, I heartily reccomend EVERYONE in this thread reads this book...it's absolutely brilliant.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0226293653.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Why Americans Hate Welfare (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226293653/qid=1085285649/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-2651736-8865628?v=glance&s=books)

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[HBox]

Millionaire Tax (http://www.app.com/app/story/0,21625,954448,00.html)

Now that I actually read about this proposal, (I should do that more often!) this is anything but what blakjeezis described. This isn't gonna help lower-class people one bit. It's property tax relief, making the whole system more progressive, basically. If you don't own a house, this don't affect you.

On an interesting aside, our Governor was about as unpopular as you can get as recently as last Fall. He has had a comeback recently, thanks to this and a spat with the arch-bishop of Newark.

And now that I read about this, it seems like the Democratic version of abolishing the Death tax in so many ways I can't count.

[Recyclerz]

This is an interesting thread but, as H-Box is pointing out, it is based on a flawed premise. All NJ is trying to do is readjust its tax base to recover the revenues it lost when Bush really drastically cut the effective tax rates for those at the very top. Since NJ (and NY) state income taxes follow the federal template, and a lot of rich people live 'round here, the states were suddenly running huge deficits.

The NJ Republicanistas have been running around spinning the story that Black Jeezis has been illustrating.

OK, back to the class warfare.



[b]There ain't no asylum here.
King Solomon he never lived 'round here.[b]

[CruelCircus]

What do you call tax cuts that give higher cuts to the rich than the poor with the half-baked theory that the rich will use the money to give the poor jobs?
A good start.
Those "half-baked" cuts have contributed to over a million new jobs in just the last few months, not to mention an overall economy that's been gangbusters for almost a year. Nothing like actual results to prove a theory correct.

how's social services ANY DIFFERENT from this? its money going from one end and out the other, and never in reverse.
Social services is very different from this because you're not replacing them with the newly redistributed money. They're still going to be there and still need to be paid for ON TOP OF the new taxes. So, they're different because they increase the burden. If you were to say "We're ditching Medicare and welfare but we're imposing this new tax and giving the money directly to the poor instead so they can pay their own medical bills." you might be making a point.
But, as it stands, they still get free social services, plus some new cash for a bigscreen or to pimp out he old Accord.


<br>
<img src="http://pw2.netcom.com/~jjmace/gifs/cruel.jpg"><br><br>
It's your life.
How do you like it so far?

[HBox]

Those "half-baked" cuts have contributed to over a million new jobs in just the last few months, not to mention an overall economy that's been gangbusters for almost a year. Nothing like actual results to prove a theory correct.

By that logic, we should go back to Clinton-era tax rates. Cause, you know, nothing like actual results, right?

This message was edited by HBox on 5-23-04 @ 3:18 AM

[CruelCircus]

Huh? How do you figure that follows my logic?

It was the Clinton-era rates we changed FROM to get where we are now.

<br>
<img src="http://pw2.netcom.com/~jjmace/gifs/cruel.jpg"><br><br>
It's your life.
How do you like it so far?

[Doomstone]

It was the Clinton-era rates we changed FROM to get where we are now.



Indeed. Who cares about the 38 steps back, it's the two steps forward that matter!

Interesting take on the NJ "Millionaire's Tax" situation (http://maxspeak.org/mt/archives/000499.html)



<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/banner_freedom.jpg">
</center>

[shamus mcfitzy]

Just what is it that took America from being a rabble of agrarian, backwoods, country bumpkin colonies to a global superpower after WWI and the singularly most powerful, richest, and greatest country in the world today? An overabundance of natural resources


which basically falls down to luck. Really we lucked out getting this much land. Just think about it. Do you actually attribute America's success to like superior genetics? We got lucky. We then developed from there.


You know, this could have been a fun, lively discussion if you actually read what I write, and respond to it. Taxing the rich for social progframs isn't Communism. Overt re-distribution of wealth, which is what this tax is doing, is.


you're really just getting "red scared". Throwing around Communist in America is like throwing around Nazi for godsake. I wonder if you yourself have read what you've written when you are actually proposing that Americans would ever let themselves lose their economic freedoms and fall apart like the USSR. This tax and others like it wouldn't have launched the great collapse of our system. The Russians primarily revolted over an unfavorable war. Uhhhhhh........maybe you should look there, if at all.

And actually what you are describing is socialism. Communism would be when socialism has finally taken hold and basically would be a perfect society. You said it real good though when ya said: "We live in an imperfect world, full of imperfect people, and run by imperfect rulers." And that's why socialism don't work of course.

But don't think telling schmega to give away his money is a grand solution. It might sound really convenient considering I don't fall into the richest few %, but they need to be giving away their money. [opinion] We all get "cheated" out of our fair share of the country's money. I don't really like the idea of taking money that the rich have truly earned, but a majority of the "rich" today didn't earn their money. Suppose that a rich person hasn't just been using those below him to further himself and also hasn't inherited his money, then he probably deserves his cash. [opinion] Obviously now it just seems that the tax isn't just giving money from the rich to the poor, so the whole discussion is irrelevant. Just figured i'd add my crackpot opinion.

This message was edited by shamus mcfitzy on 5-24-04 @ 4:28 AM

[sr71blackbird]

I am all for tax cuts. I believe that punishing someone for being a producer of money for the purposes of funding the lifestyle of the non producers has no benefit. People keep thinking that because someone makes a lot more than you that they have a lot of "extra" money and can afford to part with it, but the truth is that the costs for things that they buy; more opulent homes, expensive cars, property taxes, gifts for their loved ones, utility bills etc. all cost far more than what the rest of us have to pay. Even they end up more often than not just keeping their heads above water too; their water lever is just higher than ours. The more difficult it is made for them, they end up having to look for ways to save money. If they are emplying people, what they end up doing is letting people go, because it reduces operating expenses. Those people they let go of are us. Very large companys start looking for ways to get rid of people, They end up looking into out-sourcing overseas or in other areas of the country where people are willing to work for less.
The more unfriendly we make it for employer to stay in business only hurts the employee down the line.

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[Mike Teacher]

If we Eat The Poor; wouldnt we solve hunger and poverty?

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/newsig">

[Mike Teacher]

Welfare is not a problem. Never really was, but even less so now. Right now, welfare is less than 1% of total government spending.


Yep; but seeing that 60 minutes piece years back of the peeps showing up in their new cars to collect their welfare checks was pretty surreal; as are the dead people who are still paid, etc.

What I spaced on was indeed that large part of the pie; Military Spending.

Now; I am talking Military Spending as it was before this war, before 9/11, before whatever. Some of the stories of the money over-runs [shit what was that tank, the Abrams A-1? What was the developemtn/testing costs?] just blew me away.

Now, cant we shift that money, at least, a bit towards what we really need, and i'll defer to anyone in the military on this one: Whats more important in terms of bang for the buck: An $800 Million [im making these numbers up, as i do with most 'facts'] program for a new anti-missle missle, or stuff for the guys on the ground?

And help me out some more. The Mil budget seems enormous; so wheres the frigging PAY for the Troops?

Oh, and one last rambling thought: If I were Prez: While You Serve, you dont pay Federal Taxes. At least!



<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/newsig">

[HBox]

It was the Clinton-era rates we changed FROM to get where we are now

And where we are now is a long way down from where we were before. Bush passed 3 different tax cuts, and it took until these past few months to get meaningful job growth. He's still lost at least more than a million jobs in his term.

[Mike Teacher]

Mike the T's coming out of left field with some good info of his own.


This is the nicest way anyone ever told me i had Absolutley No Idea what I was talking about. This might stem, however, from the fact that i in fact Do Not know what i am talking about. My undergrad is in Business; and I can remember literally doing the Pipe Hits and then walking into say Management or Business Policy and then draw pictures while hideously Baked.

Yes i'm 40 and harp on it, but there was a day and age like in Dazed and Confused where we would get high as a kite and the teachers wouldnt even give us a second glance. My 10th grade science teacher called the kid next to me "Stoner". I mean, in class, as his name, all the time, not as an insult, just his name. The reason I remember was he told us the Stoner's parents showed up at Parent Teacher night and he admitted to the calss he had to run to his grade book to remember that his name was indeed Ed Bartok, not Stoner.

"Hello! Ah you must be the parents of Sto... [realizes he has no idea what his real name is] ummm.. excuse me one moment..." he frigging told us thats what happened. Mr. Dux, Physics. And good ole Stoner.



<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/newsig">

This message was edited by Mike Teacher on 5-24-04 @ 9:13 AM

[HBox]

I believe that punishing someone for being a producer of money for the purposes of funding the lifestyle of the non producers has no benefit.

Non-producers? Look, in this case the people who are benefiting are hardly non-producers; you can earn up to $200,000 and receive a tax cut from this plan. You have to own property to benefit from this, so the poor people who I am assuming you are labeling "non-producers" are not getting anything from this plan. But even if it was a tax cut for poor people, they wouldn't be "non-producers." They're working, they're filing a tax return, so they're producing something.

And as for the rest, just give me a break. I have to live within my means, so do they. It something everybody has to do and I'm pretty sure the rich much easier time of it.

And as for the business owners, a much better way to help them would be to lower FICA tax rate. Employers have to match the taxes employees pay. Lowering the rate would not only free up money for employees paychecks, it would free up money for the business owner as well. And of course nobody talks about it because it makes too much fucking sense.

[A.J.]

And help me out some more. The Mil budget seems enormous; so wheres the frigging PAY for the Troops?

Most of the money IS for the troops in terms of training, housing and health care. The military has been trying to up the pay scales so that those in uniform will stay in uniform and not bolt for the private sector.

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Red Sox Nation

[blakjeezis]

you're really just getting "red scared". Throwing around Communist in America is like throwing around Nazi for godsake. I wonder if you yourself have read what you've written when you are actually proposing that Americans would ever let themselves lose their economic freedoms and fall apart like the USSR. This tax and others like it wouldn't have launched the great collapse of our system.


Alright, I'll cop to the Red Scare, to a degree. Obviously we're not gonna be holding any May Day parades because of this, but you cannot deny that this is, at the very least, the beginnings of a Socialist mindset.

And I'm not even against taxing the rich. If this money was going towards public assistance and such, I would have no problem with it. My problem with those programs are bureaucracy, inefficiency and abuse, not their mere existence. Taking money from the rich, taking money from everyone, in the form of taxes, is fine, as long as it's used to help those unfortunate get themselves going. Just handing poor people rich people's money is not a satisfactory answer. I'll use the old metaphor:

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

I talked about the wealth, status and power that our country has achieved in an unprecedentedly short period of time. The other countries in the world that fall onto the second tier, above which we stand alone, are those that are Democratic, but still have more Socialist governments than we do: Most of the Western European nations, UK, France, Germany etc. The lower you go down in the world order the less Democracy and Capitalism you find. The great exception is, of course, China. I think their status has more to do with the fact that there are 170 kajillion citizens than their government philosophy. Let's face it, most of them are starving, and even they are starting to see the benefit of opening up to Western ideas.

There's all this buzz going on right now that we (Gen-X, yeeaaacccch, I hate that term) are the first generation of Americans that are going to be less well off than the previous generation. That's probably true. And there are a lot of contributing factors. Not least among them, I suspect, is this greater tendency towards reliance on government programs and less on the entrepreneurial (not just in an economic sense) spirit of individualism, manifested in Capitalist and Liberal (Big L, not small l) ideals.

This is all just diarrhea of the mind pouring out right now. It could also be argued, I suppose, that Capitalism is the ultimate cause for our countries quandry because the 'dumbing down' of America is pretty much a direct result of the wild, unchecked expansion of mass media, which is as Capitalist as it gets.

I dunno, I've veered way off course here. I'm just saying that I don't think just handing poor people money is the right way to go about things, in the big government sense. I'm not saying don't give a homeless guy a dollar.

Now let me stop before I break out my Social Contract twist on an economic argument.

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-24-04 @ 4:42 PM

[FMJeff]

i dont understand what your problem is...fuck rich people...they have enough g-d damn money...

it SHOULD be re-distributed amongst the poor....it only helps the economy...

rich people tend to horde thier money...poor people spend...

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[blakjeezis]

Because the poor are always buying 75 thousand dollar cars and building million dollar houses, paying 5 bucks for a bottle of water, going on vacations, hiring maids, sitters, housekeepers, and landscapers, paying for their children's education, giving to charity, going to broadway shows, eating at restaurants, building churches, building university libraries, running corporations that employee thousands if not millions of people, etc . . .

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

[42nd-delay]

A few points:

<li>I don't think the fear about us sliding into communism or socialism is realistic. In the 50s, the tax rate on the highest bracket (i.e. only applied to the extremely rich) was in the neighborhood of 90%. In the 60s it went down to 70%. After going down to 28% under Reagan, it was put up in the mid-30s by Clinton. We didn't become socialists in the 50s or the 60s or 70s, or 90s, and it didn't discourage the rich from trying to earn money.

<li>A few people have mentioned "death tax." This is really the estate tax, and it only effects estates over a million in value. Its aim is to prevent people from passing on money in perpetuity without being taxed. Without it, people could use various methods to avoid paying taxes on their money, then pass it on to their kids, who could also avoid paying taxes, and so on. Meanwhile, it collects massive amounts of interest and they live off that. This is the way an aristocracy gets built.

<li>The tax burden of the rich is actually about the same of most middle class people. The rich have various ways to avoid paying taxes which wage owners don't, not to mention that they get income from things like stock dividends, which are taxed much less now thanks to Bush. For those with incomes of over $10 million, only about 1/4 on average comes from wages. Meanwhile, most people pay taxes on all of our wages, plus social security and medicare.

<li>Everytime the rich gets their taxes cut, everyone else has to pick up more of the burden.

<li>BTW, the taxes are "voluntary" thing is a myth. What's voluntary is you figuring it out, getting your stuff together and sending it in. if you don't, they can come after you to collect it from you and you very well might go to jail.

<li>Good book on the subject. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1591840198/qid=1085446284/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6786702-5419336?v=glance&s=books)

------------------------------
"42nd-delay is the only person who's making sense." - Ron, 3-12-02

[HBox]

42nd's post brought up something else that really bothers me about Bush's tax cuts. The capital gains tax has been reduced to 15%. That's a lower rate than most of the tax brackets. So middle class people working are paying more taxes on the money they are earning than people who are making money off investments. I just think there's something fundamentally wrong with taxing people more for working for their money than people making investments. I mean, what do we value more in this country? And, no, the answer isn't lowering the tax brackets below 15%.

And the more I think of McGreevey's proposal, the less it bothers me. All it's doing is making the tax system more progressive while remaining revenue neutral. This isn't a hand out; people who will receive the increased tax refund are still paying shitloads in property tax. My parents can attest to that.

If I have any problem with this is that this seems mostly political. New Jersey is second in the nation in per capita income. Giving the middle and upper middle class a break in this state will get you far. So, if anything, I'd fault them for not doing something for the lower class. However, I'm sure McGreevey would respond that the only reason he's doing this is because of NJ's excessive property taxes, and he does have a point.

[TheMojoPin]

Yep; but seeing that 60 minutes piece years back of the peeps showing up in their new cars to collect their welfare checks was pretty surreal; as are the dead people who are still paid, etc.

Typical alarmist, "scare the public" news. Less than 30% of welfare users abuse the system.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[shamus mcfitzy]

The lower you go down in the world order the less Democracy and Capitalism you find.


but there isn't an increase in even a Soviet style of Communism. Less capitalism because economic freedom is taken away in a different sense; only a few get it at all. The lower you go you don't have more socialist tendencies, you just have more totalitarian tendencies. That's why they're considered low in the first place.

[FMJeff]

Because the poor are always buying 75 thousand dollar cars and building million dollar houses, paying 5 bucks for a bottle of water, going on vacations, hiring maids, sitters, housekeepers, and landscapers, paying for their children's education, giving to charity, going to broadway shows, eating at restaurants, building churches, building university libraries, running corporations that employee thousands if not millions of people, etc . . .


I know a lot of people who make more than half a mil annually and they ain't buildin no libraries...

don't confuse rich with super fucking rich...most people who make half a mill to a mill (which is a lot more than say, 10 mill and up) spend the money on themselves, thier children, thier home(s), thier boats and thier cars. Trust me...drive up to Westchester...being rich doesn't necessarily mean you're philanthropic...

They can afford to give something back to people who desperately need it...for whatever reason...pay for thier kids education, etc. I can think of a hundred reasons why this is a GOOD thing.

As for it being a direct re-distribution of wealth, that's really what taxes are...isn't it? It may not be distributed back to the people, but its put to use somehow to serve the people...




<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[DreamWeaver]

I don't involve myself in these discussions because I'm not good at putting my thoughts into text. I'm also mildly retarded when it comes to politics and serious discussions. But I'd like to ask a question....

Why do you think rich people should give their own money to poor people? If they earn their money, inherit it or whatever... it's theirs not yours. Why because they have alot of something should they give it to someone else? I'm poor. I don't expect people to give me anything. I'm going to school and working so I can make my own life. My parents are "rich". I don't want anything from them. It's not my money so why should I be entitled to it?

I don't get it.

Maybe if I had more money than I knew what to do with then I would understand. When I inherit money from my grandparents and parents I might be rich. I plan on giving alot of it to cancer research. My grandparents lost 2 children to it and another one is dying from it. But you think I should give MY money (inherited or earned) to some poor guy in Newark than what my plans are for it? Yes people should be taxed. Yes, give that money to poor people. But (hypothetically speaking) I worked harder than you and made more money so I should say "Here ya go...here's my money..YOU should have it, you earned it"?

Maybe I should plead ignorance on this. Or maybe you guys can help me understand the other side of the coin.




http://blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/ginani.gif

This message was edited by DreamWeaver on 5-25-04 @ 9:20 AM

[blakjeezis]

I know a lot of people who make more than half a mil annually and they ain't buildin no libraries...

My goal wasn't to paint the rich as philanthropists, which they are, but that's beside the point. The point I was trying to get at, as clumsy as it was, was that the rich do spend money, lots of it. You implied that somehow only poor people drive the economy, or at least moreso than the rich. That's bunk. Money spent by both the rich and the poor drives the economy.


They can afford to give something back to people who desperately need it...for whatever reason...pay for thier kids education, etc. I can think of a hundred reasons why this is a GOOD thing.

As for it being a direct re-distribution of wealth, that's really what taxes are...isn't it? It may not be distributed back to the people, but its put to use somehow to serve the people...

Everytime the rich gets their taxes cut, everyone else has to pick up more of the burden.

I don't think the fear about us sliding into communism or socialism is realistic. In the 50s, the tax rate on the highest bracket (i.e. only applied to the extremely rich) was in the neighborhood of 90%. In the 60s it went down to 70%. After going down to 28% under Reagan, it was put up in the mid-30s by Clinton. We didn't become socialists in the 50s or the 60s or 70s, or 90s, and it didn't discourage the rich from trying to earn money.


Am I writing in a foreign language? Am I not using complete sentences? Am I not writing clearly enough? If so, let me know, because I'm pretty sure I've said this more than once. I AM NOT SAYING DO NOT TAX THE RICH! That's not the problem here. High taxes do not equate to Socialism and Communism. Taking the rich's money and handing it to the poor is more a long those lines

And I wasn't trying to say that the further down the scale of wealthy and powerful nations you go, the MORE Socialism and Communism you find. What I meant is that the further down the scale you go the tendency is towards LESS Democracy and Capitalism. That has to mean something.


Edit: And I think Gina's words are wiser even than she realizes. Here is someone asking a very pertinent question, who has no political agenda whatsoever. I'm tied to a conservative attitude, and those I'm arguing against, I would guess, are tied to a liberal one. Those attitudes can't help but influence our argument. Gina is coming from a stance of 'everyman-ism'. Hers is a common sense perspective, she doesn't know liberal from conservative, and which stance goes with which agenda. That's not a knock or a judgement of smarts, just political naivete, which sometimes gives a clearer view of an issue than being invested in an ideology.
<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-25-04 @ 12:12 PM

[East Side Dave]

I think I may be a little late to the discussion but I'd just like to say that I am firmly against New Jersey merging with Russia. While I did not read the thread I think it's clear that you just can't trust commie mechanics, now can you?

<img src=http://www.richstillwell.com/ESD.gif>
Big Ass Mafia

Click this link (http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/thenight/ppr/index.shtml) to hear my show on Jersey's 90.5 The Night FM; (weeknights)-
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[blakjeezis]

you just can't trust commie mechanics

Ever drive a Yugo?

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

[Freakshow]

Typical alarmist, "scare the public" news. Less than 30% of welfare users abuse the system.

Wow, I really hope you're being facetious, here.



<center><img src=http://img18.photobucket.com/albums/v53/monster6sixty6/guests/freak2_sig.gif>
It's a fine line between stupid and clever </center>

[TheMojoPin]

Why? The national "average" of what could be called welfare "abuse" is about 9-16% of welfare recipients. The highest it's ever reached was just under 30%.

I'm pulling these figures from the book I linked to in an earlier page of this thread.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-25-04 @ 1:47 PM

[42nd-delay]

Why do you think rich people should give their own money to poor people? If they earn their money, inherit it or whatever... it's theirs not yours. Why because they have alot of something should they give it to someone else?


I understand your point, but here's couple things to remember... firstly, as someone said, welfare accounts for 1% of government spending. Most of the money the rich pays out goes to things like the military, or paying off the debt, or other services of government.

Secondly, it should be kept in mind that although independence and liberty are core principles of our country, we're all in this together. Like the Roman republic we derive out government from, we have a civic duty to help one another and do our part to help everyone succeed. Isn't helping other Americans what patriotism is about? Helping other people helps you in the end. - none of us lives in isolation. Now, some might ask why government should play this role, but the government's mission is to serve its people and do what it can to help them have a good life.

Finally, keep in mind that many of those who are extremely wealthy not only pay a lower percentage of taxes than the rest of us, but many do what they can to avoid taxes. Instead of cutting taxes on the top 1%, we should be funding the IRS to make sure they pay taxes. This applies even more to corporations, many of which go offshore to escape taxation.

------------------------------
"42nd-delay is the only person who's making sense." - Ron, 3-12-02

[HBox]

I don't think the government should be playing Robin Hood here. But there are many reasons why the rich should rightly carry most of the tax burden. First, they can spare it while others can't. You can't morally justify making somebody who barely afford to feed him/herself pay the same rate on their earnings as someone making $50 million, $5 million, $500,000, even $50,000. If you decide to lower the rate on that very poor person and to compensate, raise the rate on high-earners, I don't see what the problem is. (within limits, of course)

Welfare just isn't something worth worrying about anymore. The days when people could support themselves forever solely on welfare are gone.

The only reason why I would even consider raising taxes on rich people to give "hand-outs" ala the EITC to poor people (and remember, that's not what this Millionaire tax is) is the ridiculous state of the minimum wage. Raise that enough to be a living wage, and I'd be completely opposed to those types of programs.

[HBox]

we should be funding the IRS to make sure they pay taxes.

Anybody wanna guess what Bush did in regards to this issue?

[shamus mcfitzy]

Why do you think rich people should give their own money to poor people? If they earn their money, inherit it or whatever... it's theirs not yours. Why because they have alot of something should they give it to someone else? I'm poor. I don't expect people to give me anything. I'm going to school and working so I can make my own life. My parents are "rich". I don't want anything from them. It's not my money so why should I be entitled to it?


Maybe if I had more money than I knew what to do with then I would understand. When I inherit money from my grandparents and parents I might be rich. I plan on giving alot of it to cancer research. My grandparents lost 2 children to it and another one is dying from it. But you think I should give MY money (inherited or earned) to some poor guy in Newark than what my plans are for it? Yes people should be taxed. Yes, give that money to poor people. But (hypothetically speaking) I worked harder than you and made more money so I should say "Here ya go...here's my money..YOU should have it, you earned it"?


well, you seem willing to help others with moeny that you inherited. That's fine, and considering there won't ever be a true Socialist Democracy (which is what I'd be hoping for, blackjeezis, that's why I agree with the less Democracy argument), I'd be willing to accept "the rich" doing this. But they don't.

You say that you don't want money from your "rich" parents and you shouldn't I guess. Because that's the top reason I don't think the "rich" right now deserve their money; they inherited it from generations ago. The newly rich may be able to say they earned it. But even then, they've probably paid their workers low wages and are therefore taking advantage of the working class. The people up top are rarely ever working harder than those below them. That's what I object to. The system has gone so far that some people are rewarded for absolutely nothing, and the divide between rich and poor is widening.

I can only hope that one day Americans elect enough of a horrible guy that some people start waking up as to how they can have the power. But that's just crazy talk.

[blakjeezis]

we have a civic duty to help one another and do our part to help everyone succeed . . . Now, some might ask why government should play this role, but the government's mission is to serve its people and do what it can to help them have a good life.

That's certainly not my civic duty. My civic duty is to do nothing to harm another citizen, and stay the fuck out of their business.

And to what end should the government help you have a good life? If I've busted my ass for 30 years to make x amount of money, and the government says, "Sorry, you make too much we have to take it away from you and give it to someone who's having some trouble", I wouldn't categorize that as 'good'. Should they pick the mates who would make us happiest for the rest of our lives? That sounds 'good'. Or run genetics tests on our fetuses, that way we can get rid of those that aren't going to have a 'good' life. And the fuck is anyone to tell anyone else what is or isn't good for them? Surely you can agree to that. What's good for, saaaaay, W. Bush, I doubt is good for Taka Torimoto at MIT.

The government's job is not to fucking insure a good life for anyone. The government's job is to stop us from killing and robbing each other, end of story. That is the entire problem, more and more people think it is the government's job to make them happy, like somehow it is their inalienable right. Bullshit! Let me tell you something. Your happiness relies upon one thing, and one thing alone. YOU! That's it. Not your friends, family, job, money, government, or God. YOU.

As soon as people accept that and realise that it's not someone else's responsibility that they're clothed, fed, housed, and happy then stupid shit like this tax will no longer be necessary.

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

[FMJeff]

You implied that somehow only poor people drive the economy, or at least moreso than the rich.


I never said only....I said rich people save while poor people spend because they can't afford to save. Rich people love watching thier bank accounts grow.



If I've busted my ass for 30 years to make x amount of money, and the government says, "Sorry, you make too much we have to take it away from you and give it to someone who's having some trouble", I wouldn't categorize that as 'good'.

Sorry, this is the gripe of the working man...not the guy who makes over 500,000 a year. It's an entirely different thought process....something along the lines of "ahh fuck...guess I can't buy the house in Aspen this year..."


As soon as people accept that and realise that it's not someone else's responsibility that they're clothed, fed, housed, and happy then stupid shit like this tax will no longer be necessary.


You're an ass. Tell that to the single black mother working three jobs for her three children so they can have a better life. I fucking hate people who say shit like that. Lower class doesn't necessarily mean everyone mooches off the fucking welfare system. There are MANY hardworking americans who bust thier ass and just can't catch a break financially.

And besides, you and I both know wealth stays with the wealthy...yes there are some abberations but its generally accepted that money is not evenly distributed amongst the people (and has never been throughout time.) You know people look down on caste systems (like in India) and say a hundred times over that this country isn't like that...that we've evolved into something better....where every man is created equal...well THAT's bunk...there is a caste system in this country...it's called "lower class", "middle class" and "high class"....and high class people would sooner spit on the lower class than to interact with them...so fuck them and their money...I don't care if they earned it or not...when you make a half a million dollars or more your quality of life is SO GOOD that the money you would lose from this taxation wouldn't even be noticed.

Hey blackjeezis, why don't you explain to some black teenager in the ghetto that he can't go to college because some rich fuck in Westchester needs to buy another fucking boat.

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[TheMojoPin]

bj doesn't seem to be arguing against a welfare system per se...he seems to be primarily for "less government," which I think is a good thing. His "economic Darwinism" idea isn't too practical, but a smaller federal government is always OK by me.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[shamus mcfitzy]

And to what end should the government help you have a good life? If I've busted my ass for 30 years to make x amount of money, and the government says, "Sorry, you make too much we have to take it away from you and give it to someone who's having some trouble", I wouldn't categorize that as 'good'.


well its not like the average person isn't making their share. If one "busted their ass" ok maybe they deserve their money. If one "busted his workers' asses" and got the majority of the cash, then I find something wrong with that. And I don't even think one has to be in trouble. The rich should want to help the poor. And if they don't want to they should be forced.

[TheMojoPin]

And if they don't want to they should be forced.

Why?

A flexible tax rate based on income makes MUCH more sense.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[shamus mcfitzy]

A flexible tax rate based on income makes MUCH more sense.


well that's part of what I mean by forcing. Under the current circumstances, the rich need to be taxed more and the money SHOULD be used to help the rest of society. Any other meaning would be hypothetical and could never happen.

[HBox]

I read a new tax proposal today that makes a lot of sense. It would completely remove the regressive FICA paycheck taxes and replce them with a consumption tax. Now, this is not a sales tax. At the end of the year, you would take your total earnings, subtract any savings, and then pay a tax on the rest. The first $25,000 would be tax free.

The positives to this is that it is much more progressive than the current FICA system and without FICA taxes subtracted every paycheck would put significant amounts of money in employee's paychecks and employer's bank accounts every single week.

The negative? People's income tax return's might be wiped out by this, and more people might end up owing money. While poor people wouldn't be affected, the middle class might.

[42nd-delay]

The government's job is not to fucking insure a good life for anyone. The government's job is to stop us from killing and robbing each other, end of story.


I didn't mean that the government should ensure everyones' happiness, or ensure they have clothes and such, but it should it do what it can to "promote the general welfare," as it says in the preamble of the Constitution. A very small bit of this goes to giving people some money because they're below the poverty level. If it helps even a few people rise out of poverty and make contributions to society, it's worth it.

We shouldn't forget that progressive taxes and welfare came about in a time when many more people were living in much worse poverty than today. People of the time looked at the situation and realized we needed these things. They'd seen what unfettered capitalism looked like, and it wasn't pretty.


------------------------------
"42nd-delay is the only person who's making sense." - Ron, 3-12-02

[blakjeezis]

Rich people love watching thier bank accounts grow.

It's an entirely different thought process....something along the lines of "ahh fuck...guess I can't buy the house in Aspen this year..."

you and I both know wealth stays with the wealthy

high class people would sooner spit on the lower class than to interact with them...so fuck them and their money...I don't care if they earned it or not

some rich fuck in Westchester needs to buy another fucking boat.

fuck rich people...they have enough g-d damn money...

rich people tend to horde thier money

I can't argue with that. You hate rich people. You're angry with them for having money. There is no argument. You hold them in contempt, and give them none of the respect you give to the poor. Like I said before, it's as if somehow they don't deserve their money. Your hatred removes all reasoning from your argument. It would be like trying to argue with an animal. Plus, I'm an ass.


We shouldn't forget that progressive taxes and welfare came about in a time when many more people were living in much worse poverty than today. People of the time looked at the situation and realized we needed these things. They'd seen what unfettered capitalism looked like, and it wasn't pretty.

Aye, but it wasn't done by handouts. There were huge public works projects enacted. Bridges, tunnels, roads and dams were built by. I really don't think I can argue this anymore, and not just with Jeff. You can all probably figure out my responses by reading what I've written already. I hate to cop out, but I just can't take it anymore.

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!
]

This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-25-04 @ 8:35 PM

[DreamWeaver]

Like the Roman republic we derive out government from, we have a civic duty to help one another and do our part to help everyone succeed. Isn't helping other Americans what patriotism is about? Yes. Absolutely. But why do I have to give money to people that could easily go to college with the help of financial aid to get a job so they can make their own money when I would rather give my money to help cure a disease that has destroyed my family and many others?

http://blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/ginani.gif

[HBox]

But why do I have to give money to people that could easily go to college with the help of financial aid to get a job so they can make their own money when I would rather give my money to help cure a disease that has destroyed my family and many others?

You are talking about welfare. Again, in its current form it is just a temporary safety net. People cannot receive it indefinitely anymore without working. And even then I believe there is a limit.

The vast, vast majority of your tax dollars go to the military, social security and medicare. If you really want something to bitch about, talk about all those needless special little pork projects our Congresspeople bring back to their districts. Welfare has been a non-issue since it was reformed.

[blakjeezis]

some black teenager in the ghetto that he can't go to college

And that poor, young, black teenager? You guessed it . . .








http://www2.uta.edu/hunt/charts/jstallone.jpg
Frank Stallone.

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

[TheMojoPin]

young, black teenager?

DJ Skribble wants YOU to "Tap The Bottle!!!"

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[blakjeezis]

"And pass it 'round the crew because the crew be all that!"

Whew, does that take me back. Yes indeed, when I myself was a young, black teenager.

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-25-04 @ 9:47 PM

[FMJeff]

i don't "hate" them...i just don't have empathy when a percentage of thier income is taken and given to people who don't have a lot of money....

you, on the other hand, either seem to hate the lower class for whatever personal reason (clearly evident in your arguements throughout this thread....how it turned from socialism to "hey...these people should stop abusing welfare and stop taking handouts and get some responsibility) or you just love rich people....or both....

i'm not buying it...cop out or not...this is a personal thing for you...just admit it...you hate lazy black people who mooch off the system and you see this as an opportunity for them not to work and make thier own money...

its a ludicrous arguement...

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[HBox]

Another thing I'd like to add to the class warfare argument. My biggest problem with rich people is not that they're rich, but what some of them do to be rich. I'd have no problem if doctors, cops, firemen, medical researchers and such were getting these huge executive salaries. People who work and start their own business from scratch, get all the money you can!

Lawyers, fuck you! Actors, kiss my dick! Executives, suck it! Popular Entertainers, eat shit! Stock brokers, lick the dirt off my feet! Accountants, well, the only ones I have a real problem with are the dirty ones who help all that corporate fraud but they could all stand a little pay cut!

[FMJeff]

honestly...

i mean show me one person on this board besides blackjeezis who has a problem with rich people making 500K or more having to part with some of thier money so it can go to needy families?

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[JustJon]

and that's why we rich folks live in NY.

<img src="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/bans/rfjustjon11.gif"><BR><A href="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com">Chaotic Concepts</a>

[Freakshow]

I mean show me one person on this board besides blackjeezis who has a problem with rich people making 500K or more having to part with some of thier money so it can go to needy families?


I agree with most everything blackjeezis has said in this thread.


<center><img src=http://img18.photobucket.com/albums/v53/monster6sixty6/guests/freak2_sig.gif>
There's a fine line between stupid and clever </center>

[Tazz]

I do too.

<img src=http://tazz1376.homestead.com/files/homersig.gif>

[DreamWeaver]

For once I do too.

http://blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/ginani.gif

[TheMojoPin]

honestly...

i mean show me one person on this board besides blackjeezis who has a problem with rich people making 500K or more having to part with some of thier money so it can go to needy families?

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

Me.

If it's through effective and balanced taxation, maybe. But just taking the money or making them hand it over for a reason OTHER than taxes is just wrong.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[FMJeff]

as far as i'm concerned being rich is a privelege few people in this world will ever enjoy and there SHOULD be a penalty for living the good life while others suffer...


sorry folks, i'm just stone cold agains tthis one...

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[shamus mcfitzy]

man its kinda wierd that people actually came out to say that the rich should not give the poor money. I guess I never knew that capitalism was really this strong in your hearts. I can only hope that those who agree with Jeff are those that just aren't responding.

[HBox]

I'm uncomfortable with the concept of basically subsidizing the poor at the expense of rich people, but when we let capitalism unrestrained so much that the lowest income earners are getting paid a joke of an income and we do nothing else about it, then it's neccessary.

[Legolas]

A lot of rich people live in New Jersey. Me and my friends took a road trip up to some of the more exclusive communities in Northern New Jersey one summer. Obscenely big houses and property. Guess how long it took for security to start following us.

If you are rich, what the heck are you doing looking out your window every five seconds? If it was me I'd never leave the house. Women, men (kids :eg:) would all be asses up. :eg:

Ron: Are they lifeguards or lifepussies?!?!

[blakjeezis]

Fuck Capitalism, I can't believe the reading comprehension on this board.

Oh yeah, Freakshow, Tazz, Dreamweaver, Mojo:

http://www.shinolas.com/images/bartlesandjaymes.gif
Thanks for your support.

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-26-04 @ 8:44 PM

[HBox]

Fuck Capitalism

I knew you'd come around, comrade!

http://www.thegrenadarevolutiononline.com/ussr.jpg

[TheMojoPin]

man its kinda wierd that people actually came out to say that the rich should not give the poor money. I guess I never knew that capitalism was really this strong in your hearts. I can only hope that those who agree with Jeff are those that just aren't responding.



Jesus, man, NONE of us said they SHOULDN'T help out...we're just saying they shouldn't HAVE to outside of taxation if they don't CHOOSE to.

Free choice, baby! AMERICA!

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[schmega]

I can't believe the reading comprehension on this board.

you thought this bill was benefiting the lower class, when it's not. how's that for comprehension? get off yourself and your words. you think just because someone disagrees with you that they're bad at reading? its not about you.

http://gilseed.home.acedsl.com/sig.jpg

[blakjeezis]

Never let it be said that I won't own up to my mistakes. I did indeed misinterpret the original tax plan. I still don't agree that it's the best plan I've ever read, actually there is some merit to parts of it, but that's not the point. The point is, I was indeed wrong, I jumped to a bad conclusion. An admittedly emotional decision, based on the fact that I hold our liberties, financial or otherwise, extremely, extremely sacred. Any infringement, real or perceived, upon them will elicit a strong response from me.

This thread has become more of an ideological debate anyway. And that being said, there are some awful, just laughable, posts in here. People repeatedly arguing in favor of taxing the wealthy, when nobody said that the wealthy shouldn't pay their fair share. There are so many examples that I have to take off my shoes and count on my toes to keep track of them all.

And yes, it is all about me. Always, me ME ME. I'm afraid you just gotta accept that.

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-26-04 @ 9:29 PM

[shamus mcfitzy]

Sorry blakjeezis, but i interpret what you are saying as a capitalist mindset. Because it is. But so is like 99% of American thought, so its not like i meant it as anything but a pseudo-joke. I'm not really responding to anyone's arguments anymore as much as I am saying things in general

And just pointing out that you're not really one to call people's posts laughable when you were earlier comparing the US to the Soviet Union. You have admitted to being "red scared" which is laughable.

[blakjeezis]

comparing the US to the Soviet Union

This is called hyperbole - Exaggeration for effect. Similar to saying that George W. Bush is a Nazi. If you're gonna take everything so literally, I'm really sorry I said the thing about counting on my toes.

And if you wanna laugh at me for saying I'm 'red scared' that's fine and appropriate. But when you're trying to have an ideological argument, it helps if you're all disagreeing with the same thing. If someone wants to rant and rave about the rich paying their fair share of taxes, that's cool. It would probably be a better argument, though, if they found someone who disagrees.

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-26-04 @ 10:42 PM

[HBox]

So blakjeezis, did this thread give you all new reasons not to post in this forum or are they just the same old reasons?

[blakjeezis]

My reason for posting in this thread and any other thread in any other forum is, as Schmega so shrewdly observed, because it's my thread. If one were to take the time to catalog all my posts, an activity I recommend for anyone looking to improve their posting ability, they would find that a vast majority of my posts are in threads that either I myself start, or that afford me the opportunity to dazzle everyone with my wit, wisdom, and sparkling personality.

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

[TheMojoPin]

I *heart* you.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[blakjeezis]

Yeah, I'm pretty fucking keen. One might even say a dreamboat.

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-26-04 @ 11:08 PM

[shamus mcfitzy]

I'm totally into the blakjeezis. i would use the "deep fried messiah" thing but i used it already on bestinshow. I now realize that would be appropriate here. So just imagine it's the first time:

blackjeezis is like jesus stuffed inside a really smart guy stuffed inside a flour tortilla and then deep fried.

[JerryTaker]

I would suggest we all go to the doctor and get a check up. I think a few people on this board might have a Neocon or two in thier ears...


<IMG SRC="http://web.njit.edu/~gsm2321/gimliwall.gif">

Nothing we've shared means a thing
Without you close to me
I can't live without you

[FMJeff]

I would suggest we all go to the doctor and get a check up. I think a few people on this board might have a Neocon or two in thier ears...


<IMG SRC="http://web.njit.edu/~gsm2321/gimliwall.gif">

Nothing we've shared means a thing
Without you close to me
I can't live without you

I don't know what this means...my reading comprehension just isn't up to snuff...please use words limited to one syllable or max three letters....

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[JerryTaker]

I would suggest we all go to the doctor and get a check up. I think a few people on this board might have a Neocon or two in thier ears...


<IMG SRC="http://web.njit.edu/~gsm2321/gimliwall.gif">

Nothing we've shared means a thing
Without you close to me
I can't live without you

I don't know what this means...my reading comprehension just isn't up to snuff...please use words limited to one syllable or max three letters....

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

spend some time here (http://www.lewrockwell.com/dmccarthy/dmccarthy14.html)

<IMG SRC="http://web.njit.edu/~gsm2321/gimliwall.gif">

Nothing we've shared means a thing
Without you close to me
I can't live without you

[blakjeezis]

I took your test, Jerry. Turns out I'm Cro-Magnon. Actually NeoCon was my second option. Number one answer? Liberal.

<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

This message was edited by blakjeezis on 6-1-04 @ 12:08 PM

[shamus mcfitzy]

yeah i got third way, radical, centrist(?)

liberal is i guess the tird most left. I didn't get that till my 4th choice.

[shamus mcfitzy]

since i double posted i might as well add that the test aint perfect. I changed my priority on one issue and centrist and radical flipflopped. Then I changed my stance on the death penalty (i'm for it, but being a super liberal otherwise i wanted to see what would happen) and radical was second, liberal 3rd, centrist 4th. So its sensitive.

On a test on this board a couple of years back, where it was diamond shaped and it had economic freedom and personal freedoms on the axes, it actually called me a Soviet communist. It only had like 5 questions but that made my day.

This message was edited by shamus mcfitzy on 6-5-04 @ 3:12 AM