Gibson's The Passion of the Christ--Interview [Archive]

TheMojoPin

02-16-2004, 08:42 PM

The Bible clearly says Jesus was betrayed by a group of Jewish high priests, not the Jews as a whole. So unless Mel is showing the LATTER, how the fuck could it be an anti-semitic film?

I'm damn curious to see it (I love seeing issues of my own faith addressed on screen), but like curtoid said, I haven't liked any of the films the guy has directed, or even anything he's starred in in close to a decade, so I'm wary.

Besides, who can top Scorsese's "Last Temptation of Christ"? That thing is a work of beauty.

And I agree with Rooster. In theory, everyone SHOULD see this film (If it's actually good and watchable. If not, it can go fuck itself). I don't care their faith, or lack thereof, or what someone believes in...the story of Jesus, his words and his death whether all real or not, is a tale that has lessons for ANYONE. I don't care who you are.

EVERYONE.

If they don't want to, fine. I don't care. But they should if they have a negative outlook or false image of Christianity and think that that's OK.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 2-17-04 @ 12:42 AM

Davios

02-16-2004, 08:55 PM

I think the movie certainly looks like it could be a great film.

But as for Gibson, the guy just came across to me as looking sort of crazy. During the whole interview he was totally erratic stammering and laughing at his own jokes way too often with weird awkward silence from Sawyer. He seriously looked like he was on drugs.

Yerdaddy

02-16-2004, 09:31 PM

But as for Gibson, the guy just came across to me as looking sort of crazy. During the whole interview he was totally erratic stammering and laughing at his own jokes way too often with weird awkward silence from Sawyer. He seriously looked like he was on drugs.

Actually he's always been like that. He's got a personality like a bi-polar guy on Trimspa.

The thing that turns me off about this movie is an interview I saw with a theologian who had seen the movie more than once already. He said that some of the events in the movie are historical, meaning they are based on historical evidence, while other events are articles of religious doctrine. Given that That makes me think that the movie is the story as believed by an evangelical. Since I'm not a Christian I'm not interested in that perspective, especially since I would feel obligated to do the work to determine which parts are based on which perspective, and that leaves me judging it on whether it looks like an entertaining movie. I don't think that a movie that Gibson did for the reasons he's said he did is likely to be very entertaining, so I'll probably just be sticking with The Life of Brian.

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sr71blackbird

02-17-2004, 03:10 AM

I want to see it too. I never saw the Last Temptation, and maybe will after seeing this. I dont know how it could be viewed without the subtitles though, unless you are fluent in Latin and the other language. Aramatheic ? sp? I heard its bloody, and I hope it wasnt done for the gore enthusiastics out there (not the president).

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Doctor Manhattan

02-17-2004, 05:53 AM

Monica Bellucci as Mary Magdalene? Jesus IS god!

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Wasn't intrested in this film until I read that.

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NewYorkDragons80

02-17-2004, 06:05 AM

It's funny how the Italians never got shit for killing Jesus. Funny.

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Doctor Manhattan

02-17-2004, 06:47 AM

Well, how many Italians are from Rome?

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Furtherman

02-17-2004, 07:12 AM

I have no interest in seeing this movie. I watched the interview and thought Mel came across as a little whacky, but that's what makes him who he is and a great entertainer in movies like Mad Max and Leathal Weapon.

Diane Sawyers' "cut away looks", where they show her staring at him like he is crazy were driving me nuts. I lost a lot of respect for her.

However, I did like her statement that the Bible and it's new testaments are considered by most historians as political points of view and metaphors. That made the most sense.

As for the controversy (I hate to use that word) surrounding the movie (spurred by the american press), lighten up, it is just a film.

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East Side Dave

02-17-2004, 08:15 AM

Does Jesus have a lightsaber in the movie?

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blakjeezis

02-17-2004, 08:22 AM

how many Italians are from Rome

Everything south of Rome is Africa.

As far as Jews killing Jesus. They did. Forget religion and ethnicity, from purely a political standpoint, he was an enemy. Although the power the Pharacees had was granted by Rome, Pilate was basically an overseer. Joseph Caiaphas and the other priests were essentially allowed to govern by their own Hebrew laws.

Jesus was seen as a fomentor of rebellion. If he'd been allowed to continue, Rome would have not only cracked down on he and his followers, the entire Jewish community, priests included, would have come under a much tighter yoke. Unfortunately the Pharacees could not legally execute Jesus. There were no Jewish laws that would allow them to, so they convinced Pilate to do the job for them.

Pilate was a weak man, appointed to his post in Judea as a political favor of sorts. As near as can be related to the modern world, he was a lifelong civil servant, a bleary eyed, middle management bureaucrat, the head of your local DMV office, for lack of better words. The priests capitalized on his weakness, and used his fear of seeming incompetent and losing his post as leverage to convince him to execute Jesus. He would never have been able to come to such a decision by himself, he didn't have the backbone. It was only after Caiaphas convinced him that he would have open rebellion on his hands if he didn't, that he went ahead with the execution. Myself, I see Pilate as more of a tragic figure, masterfully manipulated, than an executioner.

They may not have hammered in the nails, but the Jewish priests put Jesus up on that cross as much as any one of the Roman Legionnaires.

Throughout history this has been used to persecute Jews. Ironically, those who would justify attacking Jews because of this, should be the same believers who understand more than anyone else that it had to happen. Jesus was sent here to die for our sins, to suffer and sacrifice himself that we won't have to. The Jews were only doing God's will.

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This message was edited by blakjeezis on 2-17-04 @ 12:45 PM

curtoid

02-17-2004, 09:01 AM

I dont know how it could be viewed without the subtitles though, unless you are fluent in Latin and the other language.

Mel's orginal argument was that the story is familiar enough that people would know the tale enough to follow it. It works in ballet or Opera, where people can follow the stories and not have explained to them everything that is going on (Opera does have sur-titles, but they are distracting).

I wanted to take that challenge - I've seen plenty of films in their original language w/out titles and, while I don't understand squat, I can usually figure out the players - especially the really good ones.

The best silent films, for example, had few title cards. A recent example is the cartoon "The Triplettes of Bellville" which doesn't rely on more than the physical narrative.

As far as Jews killing Jesus. They did. Forget religion and ethnicity, from purely a political standpoint, he was an enemy.

Jews might have killed Jesus - The Jews did not.

Monica Bellucci as Mary Magdalene? Jesus IS god!

I just hope she gets to rest her tits on the table during the last supper, like she did in that third MATRIX movie.

Speaking of which (sort of)...

Does Jesus have a lightsaber in the movie?

Who else groaned in "Star Bores: Episode One: The Phantom Menace" when Anakin's mother revealed that Anakin didn't have a father??!!

So, we are suppose to believe that the villian to end all villians was really born as a savior?

Tell that to the people of Oragomi, or whatever the hell that planet was that he blowed up in the original "Star Wars" (I still refuse to call it "Episode Four" or especially "A New Hope.")

Other sci-fi movies with Christ complexes: "The Terminator" (John Connor = "J.C."), "The Matrix" (Neo is "The One") and good old "E.T." where he dies and comes back and faith wins out in the end.

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Wormwood

02-17-2004, 09:04 AM

JustJon

02-17-2004, 09:24 AM

Who else groaned in "Star Bores: Episode One: The Phantom Menace" when Anakin's mother revealed that Anakin didn't have a father??!!

So, we are suppose to believe that the villian to end all villians was really born as a savior?

Tell that to the people of Oragomi, or whatever the hell that planet was that he blowed up in the original "Star Wars" (I still refuse to call it "Episode Four" or especially "A New Hope.")
Not to derail here, but I never interpreted it as a Christ thing. I interpreted it as his father is gone, and the look his mother gives Qui-gon implied there was something more to it than that.

And it's been "Episode 4: A New Hope" since 1977.

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blakjeezis

02-17-2004, 09:31 AM

Yeah, but later on they do make reference to a child being conceived by the Midi-Chlorians.

that planet that he blowed up in the original "Star Wars"

Actually, Vader doesn't blow up Alderaan, Grand Moff Tarkin does. In fact, Vader denounces the Death Star as the most powerful force in the Galaxy, and 'force chokes' the officer who says it . A technicality, I know, but it's what we geeks thrive upon.

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This message was edited by blakjeezis on 2-17-04 @ 1:54 PM

Yerdaddy

02-17-2004, 09:53 AM

Now I remember why I don't post here very often.

you've posted 4,099 times

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Easy tiger. Around here he's Jesus and you're the Jewish priests. Make the right call.

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Tall_James

02-17-2004, 09:55 AM

Easy tiger. Around here he's Jesus and you're the Jewish priests. Make the right call.

Can I be Barabbas?

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TheMojoPin

02-17-2004, 10:02 AM

I call Thief #2!

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 2-17-04 @ 2:03 PM

Yerdaddy

02-17-2004, 10:04 AM

Can I be Barabbas?
No, but you can be B.A. Baracus.

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Yerdaddy

02-17-2004, 10:07 AM

I call Thief #2!

Sorry. There's only room around here for one #2 Thief, and that's Ed.

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TheMojoPin

02-17-2004, 10:17 AM

I'm gonna be Lazarus, and just sit around and scoff when Jesus rises, because I SO already did that.

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mikeyboy

02-17-2004, 10:46 AM

I wanna be Rudolph.

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East Side Dave

02-17-2004, 10:48 AM

I wanna be the Elf that wants to be a dentist.

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TheMojoPin

02-17-2004, 10:49 AM

I wanna be a dentist.

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East Side Dave

02-17-2004, 10:51 AM

I wanna poison guppies

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blakjeezis

02-17-2004, 10:52 AM

You'll be a deeeeentist (bah bah) and you 'll be a success!

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East Side Dave

02-17-2004, 10:54 AM

Suddenly Bad Touch
is standin' beside me

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Doctor Manhattan

02-17-2004, 11:01 AM

Everything south of Rome is Africa.

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TheCosmicCircus

02-17-2004, 11:06 AM

I heard there is some hot anal in this flick

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Doctor Manhattan

02-17-2004, 11:37 AM

That's why the pope gave it his praise.

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TheCosmicCircus

02-17-2004, 12:07 PM

This Pope is wack on smack!
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after 40 minutes of reading subtitles-

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badorties

02-17-2004, 01:45 PM

So, we are suppose to believe that the villian to end all villians was really born as a savior?

not to be a nerd splitting hairs:

but anakin was prophesied to be "the one who will bring balance to the Force...?"

not be a savior in a messianic sense, that probably would be more of luke's ....

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This message was edited by badorties on 2-17-04 @ 5:47 PM

blakjeezis

02-17-2004, 02:27 PM

not to be a nerd splitting hairs:

Not to further split the hairs you've already split, but Anakin was not prophesied to be the Force balancer. A prophecy was made about someone bringing balance to the Force, and Qui-Gon convinced Mace and sufficient members of the Jedi Council that Anakin was the one.

We can sit here and argue about whether or not it was Luke or Anakin who the prophecy ws really about:

Anakin because after the Jedi Purge there were 2 Sith (Vader, Sidious) and 2 Jedi (Obi-Wan, Yoda) roughly equal in power between the 4 of them. Meaning truly, the Force was balanced.
Or
Luke because at the end of his little adventure, everything was happy and and order had been restored to the Galaxy. That's the version I prefer to believe, but that's just me.

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ADF

02-17-2004, 03:02 PM

Ironically, those who would justify attacking Jews because of this, should be the same believers who understand more than anyone else that it had to happen. Jesus was sent here to die for our sins, to suffer and sacrifice himself that we won't have to. The Jews were only doing God's will.

That's all fine and dandy, but what if Jesus was just some whackjob stirring up trouble? Then the only thing those dudes are responsible for is killing some crazy dude because he's a political rival. Also, a lot of us would feel a bit silly, nowadays, believing in all of that nonsense... but that's only if Jesus isn't the son of god... and assuming there is a god

(which there isn't).

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Arienette

02-17-2004, 03:31 PM

I think the Passion should be seen by all people and is not anti semetic. have you seen it? have any of us seen it? i don't understand how any one of us could make a comment like this without having first seen the movie. i'm interested to see it, so that i can make that determination on my own.

i also dont understand how anyone could speak with such certainty about what happened in biblical times. religion is not definitive history. i'm sure there's some in there, but who can prove anything?

i dont know whether most of what blakjeezis says is true or not. but i do know that he's right that "Throughout history this has been used to persecute Jews." that is undeniably true, and that's probably why i'm responding to this thread at all. remember that i say all of this without having seen the movie. but, to me, it seems sort of horrible in our political climate to do anything that will serve to fuel hatred against the jews. i agree in theory with what mojo said about how the film likely depicts only specific jews, and not the jews as a people. but that doesnt change the fact of how this will be perceived. i'm not suggesting that speech should be suppresed because of this, but i just find it upsetting when people brush it aside so easily.

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A.J.

02-17-2004, 03:36 PM

Mel came across as a little whacky, but that's what makes him who he is and a great entertainer in movies like Mad Max and Leathal Weapon.

Is Jesus going to say "I'm getting too old for this shit"?

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badorties

02-17-2004, 05:39 PM

the big concern is that 'passion plays' have a horrible reputation for inciting anti-semitism, especially in europe where such feelings linger ...

the fact is that jesus was put to death under roman law, there might be some evidence that jewish leaders might have forced pilate's hand ...

unfortunately, a Jewish high priest's lament in Matthew 27:25 "His blood be on us and on our children" has indicted jews as the murders of the christ ...

now common sense will dictate: just because some jews may have contributed to the death of jesus, it doesn't mean all jews were part of the conspiracy ... but blind hatred rarely relies on common sense

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TheMojoPin

02-17-2004, 05:46 PM

the fact is that jesus was put to death under roman law, there might be some evidence that jewish leaders might have forced pilate's hand ...

"Might?"

Since when?

The accepted official version is a GROUP of SOME Jewish high priests "sold him out." That's it. Anyone getting "all Jews" or "this is the Jews' fault" or "hate all Jews" from that is really just trying too hard.

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newport king

02-19-2004, 06:07 PM

looks like mel's dad is about to get him into some more shit. on UPN news @ 10 they showed a radio interview he did and whether the movie may or may not be, his old man DEFINITELY is antisemetic in some of his views. i'm way too lazy to do any quotes or anything. but the guy said the jews escaped the holocaust to LA NY Sydney, wherever the money was.

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This message was edited by newport king on 2-19-04 @ 10:07 PM

HBox

02-19-2004, 06:22 PM

Here's the Daily News article. (http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/165952p-145217c.html)

"They're after one world religion and one world government," Hutton Gibson, 85, said in a radio interview that will air Monday night.

In the bizarre interview, Gibson also said Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan should be lynched and called for the government to be overthrown.

"They claimed that there were 6.2 million in Poland before the war, and they claimed after the war there were 200,000 - therefore he must have killed 6 million of them," he said. "They simply got up and left! They were all over the Bronx and Brooklyn and Sydney, Australia, and Los Angeles."

He said the Germans did not have enough gas to cremate 6 million people and that the concentration camps were just "work camps."

"It's all - maybe not all fiction - but most of it is," he said.

Gibson reserved most of his vitriol for Judaism, asking: "Is the Jew still actively anti-Christian? He is, for by being a Jew, he is anti-everyone else."

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newport king

02-19-2004, 06:43 PM

i feel king of bad for Mel right now. he's just sitting in his house with HIS 30million dollar investment ready to go out into the world with all the criticism he's gotten for the movie so far he's done a pretty good job of quieting it down and deflecting the accusations. now this old cook has to run his mouth.
and wait a minute, he wants the government overthrown...aren't they from fucking new zealand??

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schmega

02-19-2004, 07:08 PM

Not to further split the hairs you've already split, but Anakin was not prophesied to be the Force balancer. A prophecy was made about someone bringing balance to the Force, and Qui-Gon convinced Mace and sufficient members of the Jedi Council that Anakin was the one.

We can sit here and argue about whether or not it was Luke or Anakin who the prophecy ws really about:

Anakin because after the Jedi Purge there were 2 Sith (Vader, Sidious) and 2 Jedi (Obi-Wan, Yoda) roughly equal in power between the 4 of them. Meaning truly, the Force was balanced.
Or
Luke because at the end of his little adventure, everything was happy and and order had been restored to the Galaxy. That's the version I prefer to believe, but that's just me.

i would argue that the force was not balanced after the jedi purge. the dark side was WAY stronger. sidious was powerful enough to hide his presence in the prequels from yoda and the rest of the jedi council. vader was powerful enough to nearly wipe out the jedi. i'd have a tough time seeing the balance there.

NewYorkDragons80

02-19-2004, 08:46 PM

he wants the government overthrown...aren't they from fucking new zealand??
Actually... no. Gibson was, in fact, born in the United States. Upstate NY, in fact. The family moved to Australia later on.

On a different note, I think my alma mater made al-Jazeera. They don't mention it by name, but I'm pretty sure they are the Long Island Catholic school mentioned in the article.
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Furtherman

02-20-2004, 05:35 AM

That's all fine and dandy, but what if Jesus was just some whackjob stirring up trouble?

*Winning Cowbell*

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DJEvelEd

02-20-2004, 05:58 AM

I hope they portray Judas as a financial broker and not a traitor. Judas just made a deal to bring Jesus in without getting the Apostles into a fight and maybe killed. Judas didn't betray Jesus. He just made a deal. It's kind of like how the Enron guys & Mich‘l Jackson were brought in. That's how things were done back then too.

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Doctor Manhattan

02-21-2004, 05:20 PM

Saw "The Passion" a book of photos from the movie with a forward by Mel Gibson. I hadn't seen any actual footage of this movie (Is there a trailer?) But looking at the book made me want to see the film, despite Monica Belluci not sporting her Matrix-Clevage.

edit, Yes, there's a trailer, Haven't seen it on TV. didn't even know the title was "The Passion of The Christ"

Trailer 15MB (http://mp3content03.bcst.yahoo.com/proot4/PubShare13/yahoomovies/10/5650053.mov)

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This message was edited by SofaKingWhat on 2-21-04 @ 9:29 PM

bigbaldirish

02-21-2004, 11:02 PM

i'm interested to see it, so that i can make that determination on my own.

hence why mel gibson is a marketing genius. now it doesn't even matter if its a good movie anymore. if it's anti semitic, jew's want to see what is anti semitic... christians want to see it to prove jews wrong. that takes care of 2 outta 3 major religions in the world.
everybody complaining about it will make him money, everybody happy will make him money. so even if it sucks..... he wins
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This message was edited by bigbaldirish on 2-22-04 @ 3:02 AM

monsterone

02-21-2004, 11:09 PM

dude, he'd have to resort to wierd marketing tactics to get people to sit through 2 hrs of subtitles.

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Doctor Manhattan

02-22-2004, 06:48 AM

The flip side is - Mel is a shitty director.

He's only directed 3 films: The Passion of the Christ, The Braveheart, The Man Without a Face

Braveheart was a good film, I don't know if it's historically accurate, but it's entertaining, I'm not alone in that opinion. It won several oscars including best director and best film, even if it didn't deserve to win (Apollo 13 was good too. The Usual Suspects wasn't nominated I would have gone with that!) I would say it means it's not a shitty directing job.

I didn't see The man without a face

Has The Passion been reviewed yet? I check rottentomatos.com and there aren't enough reviews to get a score (and it opens in 3 days)

I am glad Mel didn't put himself as the star of The Passion (I guess if he looked more like the usual Jesus image he would have. But he should have gone with Chris Rock or Dave Chappelle. Everyone knows Jesus was Black.

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TheMojoPin

02-22-2004, 07:23 AM

Black, shmack. He would have just looked Middle Eastern. That can mean a ton of things.

I can't even sit through "Braveheart". "Rob Roy" and "Michael Collins" basically each told the same kind of story (And both starred Liam Neeson, oddly enough), and in my opinion, did it much, MUCH better.

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schmega

02-22-2004, 07:48 AM

could a black man possibly be charasmatic enough to have other jews follow him? would all the world's italians worship a black guy?

if jesus is black, that means his parents were black. unless one of them is michael jackson. wtf is a black carpenter(joseph) doing in israel? how did he get there? and where are they now?

This message was edited by schmega on 2-22-04 @ 12:01 PM

mikeyboy

02-22-2004, 07:50 AM

Ease up, schmega.

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TheMojoPin

02-22-2004, 07:56 AM

and where are they now?

Dead?

would all the world's italians worship a black guy? NO.

No, but they DID worship Meyer Lansky, so you're halfway there.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 2-22-04 @ 12:04 PM

schmega

02-22-2004, 08:02 AM

Ease up, schmega.

uh yeah, sorry about that. i didnt see the humor in that initially. i fly off the handle when people say jesus was black.

blakjeezis

02-22-2004, 08:05 AM

I always picture Jesus looking like a young Jon Lovitz with a beard and a tan.

"Destroy this temple and I will re-build it in uhhhhh threeee days time. Yeeeeeeaah, that's the ticket, three days. And I can walk on water too, yeah that's it - and uhhhhhh make the blind see."

Edit: Now that I'm thinking about it, our very own JustJon wouldn't be bad stand-in either. Provided, of course, he can grow a beard.

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TheMojoPin

02-22-2004, 08:19 AM

"I don't know about you, but I can't take my eyes off of the PASSION!!!"

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Doctor Manhattan

02-22-2004, 01:43 PM

<img src="http://www.azerbaijancinema.com/wallpapers/dogma.jpg" width=350>

Dude, I saw Dogma, one of Jesus' Apostles verified it, Jesus is Black. And God is a Lesbian as well.

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This message was edited by SofaKingWhat on 2-22-04 @ 5:44 PM

MizzleTizzle

02-22-2004, 04:14 PM

What I wanna know is; it's 2000 years ago and you're in the middle east:

You find two people and their names are "MARY" and "JOSESPH" ?? C'Mon ! ! ! [rimshot]

Hey, Jesus name isn't really Jesus, so...

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02-22-2004, 06:04 PM

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sr71blackbird

02-23-2004, 04:05 AM

Is there any furniture that Jesus might have made still around?

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blakjeezis

02-23-2004, 09:03 AM

Is there any furniture that Jesus might have made still around?

If it's wood furniture you're looking for, probably not. Chances are he didn't make much of it. Think of it logically, the region we're talking about is not known for its lush, verdant forests. Most of the area was and still is dominated by arid desert. Carpenters of the time, including Joseph, Jesus, and his brothers, were not carpenters as we would think of them; for the most part, they worked in stone. Unlike the masons of the time, however, they were trained how to handle what little wood was used as well. There were no wooden buildings, the familiar stable we see in all those nativity scenes is certianly not a historically accurate portrayal. The stable wasn't a wooden structure, it was a cave in the mountains around Bethlehem. And while I'm at it, Mary and Joseph certainly weren't looking for an inn either. It was considered immoral and a sin for Jews to charge people for rooms, especially fellow Jews. There was just no ne who had any spare room. A small detail, but significant.

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blakjeezis

02-24-2004, 02:48 PM

Just like Herpes, I'm back.
You know, I've been listening to all the Jewish representatives bitch all day about how they're "being misrepresented" and "Anti-Semitism" this and "Violence" that, and I've had about enough. I'm English, I was born there, lived there throughout my childhood, and I'm Goddamn proud of my upbringing and heritage. I cherish it like very little, if not nothing else on this planet. That being said, I've watched "Braveheart", "Michael Collins", "In the Name of the Father", "Titanic", in which most of the first class animals were English, and countless other films that expose some of the hideous things, real and imagined, the English have done throughout the years, and enjoyed them. They're good films. If I was the kind of person these Jewish leaders are, I would've been in front of the theatres with a sign and a Union Jack. I wasn't, know why? Because at some point you have to face facts. Even though they may or may not be embellished and distorted by Hollywood, there is some truth to all of these things. Deal with it. Some Jews had an extremely large hand (and noses, tee hee) in the death of Jesus. No one came to my house, or beat me up because of William Wallace's death.

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This message was edited by blakjeezis on 2-24-04 @ 6:50 PM

shamus mcfitzy

02-24-2004, 03:21 PM

It's funny how the Italians never got shit for killing Jesus. Funny.

aren't the modern day Italians pretty much from what is now Spain? Yes, some Italians may have Roman blood, but i'm pretty sure the Italians are mostly descended from "Spanish" barbarians who melded into the Roman culture. That's what I heard.

And this movie can't possibly be as bad as people are saying. Yet I'm still guessing a couple of people are going to be killed in NYC because of it. Not, Mel's fault, just a statement of how there are stupid people.

sr71blackbird

02-24-2004, 03:29 PM

Not to offend any Jews, but this thing happened. Christians arent angry at them for it. How could the prophesy be fulfilled unless, by their own texts, the messiah be betrayed by his own people? I cant understand their uproar of it, what do they want, us to rewrite history? The same argument that they are upset with Mel Gibsons father, for his belief that the Holicost didnt happen to the extent that it did can be made. We all know that happened, if there is a minority whos twisted beliefs allow them to support such a blatant misreprentation of a historical event, let them believe it, because you cant change the mind of a nut, and take comfort that the vast majority or normal thinking Catholics dont hold you "responsible" for it. I, as a Catholic never thought that and none that I know of either. The purpose of this film, I think, is to show the world the suffering that Jesus must have gone through for the sake of the rest of us. Nothing more.

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keithy_19

02-24-2004, 06:07 PM

I just watched the making of the passion of the Christ and let me just say I will see this movie. By just watching the making of it It actually moved me if that makes sense. I come from a Christian family and ever sicne I was diagnosed with MS my faith has really slipped. After seeing this, it actually makes me realize what Jesus did and makes me want to get my relationship with God back on track.

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Captain Rooster

02-24-2004, 06:10 PM

The truth is Christ was controversial; he was killed for being such.

Gibson is portraying a controversial figure; many will try to kill him , maybe not literally, for doing so.

I am disgusted by Americans who can legitimize any act whether moral of immoral in modern America and then spit upon a man's portrayal of a figure in history who only represented all that man should strive to be.

Piggy faced Castle Rock; he was crushed.

Mankind loves the fall. Man cheers for the fall. Man craves the fall to misery. Why? I do not know.

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This message was edited by Captain Rooster on 2-24-04 @ 10:40 PM

keithy_19

02-24-2004, 06:30 PM

Rooster, thats deep. ::head down fist up::

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TheMojoPin

02-24-2004, 08:42 PM

How many people are really bashing this?

Where are all these "angry Jewish groups?"

I've read reviews where critics think it's too violent (Mostly for kids), and that's about it.

I want to see the movie. I like what it's trying to do. But the stench of spin is thick here.

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NewYorkDragons80

02-24-2004, 09:08 PM

I want to see it too. The high school I went to/work at is having a "pilgrimmage" to see the movie tomorrow and I was not invited. Apparently they rented out the entire Roosevelt Raceway theater for the afternoon. Here's the kicker: I read about it on al-Jazeera before I heard about it at work. Those bastards are keeping me out of the loop!

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This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 2-25-04 @ 1:08 AM

newport king

02-25-2004, 04:43 AM

critics think it's too violent (Mostly for kids),

this is where my problem is with people reviewing this movie....it was a fucking crucifixtion! it wasn't a walk in the park.

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blakjeezis

02-25-2004, 05:42 AM

Where are all these "angry Jewish groups?

Well, and I'm claiming igonrance here, I don't know what the Jewish population is down there Mojo, but no matter what, I can gurantee it's nowhere near the Jewish population of NYC. And I know that it has been tackled on a national level, but every local newscast has figures talking both sides of the argument. One particular Jewish leader, Dove something or other, he's a senator or councilman from Brooklyn, said that all the Jewish characters in the movie were ugly. Ugly?!?!? C'mon, that's just silly.

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This message was edited by blakjeezis on 2-25-04 @ 9:49 AM

newport king

02-25-2004, 05:52 AM

i heard they look like they got hit in the face with a yarmulka.
http://home.earthlink.net/~hjjugovic/images/CastPhotos/Jaime%20Pressly%202.jpg
http://www.yarmulka.com/

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This message was edited by newport king on 2-25-04 @ 9:52 AM

TheMojoPin

02-25-2004, 07:35 AM

this is where my problem is with people reviewing this movie....it was a fucking crucifixtion! it wasn't a walk in the park.

Yeah, but when you've got a filmmaker and church groups pratically DEMANDING that people taking their kids with them, I think it's a key point. I don't give a shit if it's a "special" violence...the movie is supposed to be one of the mose brutal in a LONG time because of its realisim, so let's stop pretending that little kids are soe of the ones that "need" to see this thing.

It's a movie. It's not going away. They can see it when they're older. What's the harm in waiting a few years before you terrify your child with this?

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

JustJon

02-25-2004, 07:42 AM

Funny, the reviews I'm reading focus more on the shoddy directing, lack of characterization and lack of back story. But phenominal scenery, music and acting.

Not everyone knows who the characters are and Gibson does little to establish them, he lacks subtlety in his directing, etc.

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East Side Dave

02-25-2004, 07:50 AM

I just saw it! It was great, Roy Hobbs hit the home run at the end and the ball hit the fucking lights and the lights exploded!

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Tall_James

02-25-2004, 07:56 AM

I just saw it! It was great, Roy Hobbs hit the home run at the end and the ball hit the fucking lights and the lights exploded!

I want to have your children.

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East Side Dave

02-25-2004, 07:59 AM

Thank you. I- I have no sperm left and....well I just need some sperm.

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TheMojoPin

02-25-2004, 08:19 AM

Not everyone knows who the characters are and Gibson does little to establish them

Which goes with what I was saying about not taking kids. This movie has NOTHING to do with anything else about Jesus besides his death. It loses his message, and it doesn't even deal with his freakin' resurrection! That's why this movie ISN'T for everyone...for people who know the story, it can be a fascinating a great thing to see. But for people NOT familiar with the details, or for little kids, this is going to seem like some brutal snuff flick.

Anyone CAN see the movie, but that doesn't mean it IS for everyone. Ultimately, despite what people for or against this thing want us to think, it IS just a movie.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

Doctor Manhattan

02-25-2004, 08:20 AM

lack of back story

yeah, Mel expects people to read the book before this movie comes out! I'm getting too old for this shit...

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This message was edited by SofaKingWhat on 2-25-04 @ 12:21 PM

Yerdaddy

02-25-2004, 08:33 AM

It is rated R.

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keithy_19

02-25-2004, 11:26 AM

This movie depicts Christ's most heroic deed. This movie is about the mercy of God and the love of God.

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Furtherman

02-25-2004, 11:40 AM

It's a movie. A depiction. Fiction.

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keithy_19

02-25-2004, 11:57 AM

Well, it's not fiction. This actually happened. Hell, you learn about it in public schools in the world history classes.

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Furtherman

02-25-2004, 12:02 PM

You're young. You'll see.

Stories. Metaphors. Political points of view.

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JustJon

02-25-2004, 12:13 PM

It's a movie. A depiction. Fiction.
Just like the Bible.

Well, it's not fiction. This actually happened. Hell, you learn about it in public schools in the world history classes.
Not in any history class I ever took.

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DC Reed

02-25-2004, 12:17 PM

Gibson butchered Hamlet with Glenn Close, so its not suprising he could fuck up the Bible. I mean characters are laid out in the book, its not to hard to just add some violence in it and keep with the basic story.

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newport king

02-25-2004, 12:41 PM

let's stop pretending that little kids are soe of the ones that "need" to see this thing.

fuck kids. they should stay their ass home and stop going to movies. all they do is kick the back of my chair anyways. damn kids.

Hell, you learn about it in public schools in the world history classes.

i'm only 25 but back in my day there was not 1 word about god in my public school. i thought thats why they had CATHOLIC schools, to teach this stuff.

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keithy_19

02-25-2004, 01:48 PM

In World History, you take the class freshman year in my school, when you learn about Rome and stuff they make mention of Jesus and how he was crucified. When you learn about India you learn about hinduism, when you learn about parts of asia and the middle east, you learn about Islam. You don't go into detail about it, it just mentions it. You learn about the spread of these religions.

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bigbaldirish

02-25-2004, 02:35 PM

and no history book is wrong... ever

jesus was a real man, a real politician... meaning he could sell his beliefs and himself. and many of our ancestors bought into it, because of fear of God. Jesus was the first and greatest rock star ever, and never past being humble.
in 20th/21st century not many would fall into the belief that one man is son of God so easily.

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shamus mcfitzy

02-25-2004, 03:11 PM

I've read reviews where critics think it's too violent (Mostly for kids), and that's about it.

the daily news review actually offended ME. Towards the end it seemed to be blaming Christianity for having the Bible say that Jews killed Jesus. You could tell that the reviewer had a vested interest and was responding in a totally unprofessional manner. Surprise, surprise, the Daily News is trash.

I did learn about Jesus as being a real person and that he was born in like 4 BC and was killed as an effort of religious persecution by the Roman gov't. Of course my school was pretty liberal and we were considered "sophistocated" enough, I guess, to not be offended by the mere mention of a religious figure. We also learned about Hinduism and Islam.

Furtherman

02-26-2004, 06:44 AM

I did learn about Jesus as being a real person and that he was born in like 4 BC and was killed as an effort of religious persecution by the Roman gov't.

You are lucky and that sounds like a good school you went to. Every school should teach his story like that.

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TooCute

02-26-2004, 07:46 AM

East Side Dave

02-26-2004, 08:14 AM

<a href="http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=%5CCulture%5Carchive%5C200402 %5CCUL20040224f.html">Screw the Jews, this movie was clearly just a vehicle for white supremacist propaganda.</a>

Mel should have casted Dr. J to play Jesus.

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This message was edited by East Side Dave on 2-26-04 @ 12:15 PM

JustJon

02-26-2004, 08:29 AM

<a href="http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=%5CCulture%5Carchive%5C200402 %5CCUL20040224f.html">Screw the Jews, this movie was clearly just a vehicle for white supremacist propaganda.</a>
bleh. since when are blacks "and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass"? He should be dark skinned, but not black nor white. More of a dark olive, like most people of that region.

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TheMojoPin

02-26-2004, 10:00 AM

Look at the region.

Look all the different types of people that live there.

Jesus' "look" could have been all over the map. But about the ONLY thing he couldn't have been is Asian or the Snow White guy he is portrayed as today. How many white people where in Israel and the Middle East at the time? Were the Romans even "white?"

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

keithy_19

02-26-2004, 12:37 PM

in 20th/21st century not many would fall into the beleif that one man is son of God so easily

If a man we're able to bring the dead back to life without the use of science, and change water to wine, and to never sin then maybe you would.

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Furtherman

02-26-2004, 01:20 PM

If a man we're able to bring the dead back to life without the use of science, and change water to wine, and to never sin then maybe you would.

Only if that actually happened.

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DJEvelEd

02-26-2004, 02:27 PM

I went to Catholic schools all my life. I believe the New Testament ALOT more than the Old Testament but always got the "sanitized" version of Jesus's Crucifixion story. This movie was VERY bloody and very graphic, even scary at times. I was definitely shocked. No historical movie is ever perfect, but this one was very well made and the Roman violence was totally believable. Where was the anti-Semitism? Being a Jesus fan, I was more anti-Roman.

*Pilate was a douche who couldn't think for himself.

*Herod was a hedonistic fat fuck.

*Scourging sucks. I remember being little and thinking he was given a spongebath (scoured). Now I never want to be scourged unless Kat gets real kinky.

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This message was edited by DJEvelEd on 2-26-04 @ 6:31 PM

East Side Dave

02-26-2004, 02:33 PM

trying to set a record for Most Elapsed Time Between Original Post and Edit

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This message was edited by East Side Dave on 3-7-04 @ 5:03 PM

TheMojoPin

02-26-2004, 08:29 PM

OK, I saw it.

Decently directed, very well-acted...all in all a very good film. And not much better or more "special" than any other film out there.

But I'm still bothered.

What I heard was true, and the focus is almost solely on Jesus' death, implying that THAT is the most important aspect of this series of events...and not the friggin' RESURRECTION. In fact, if you go by this film, the resurrection isn't important AT ALL.

My CCD teacher is probably rolling over in her grave.

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Captain Rooster

03-07-2004, 03:31 AM

But I'm still bothered....the focus is almost solely on Jesus' death, implying that THAT is the most important aspect of this series of events...and not the friggin' RESURRECTION. In fact, if you go by this film, the resurrection isn't important AT ALL.

My CCD teacher is probably rolling over in her grave.

No, she's probably wondering why you have forgotten the services on Good Friday. Good Friday, the day Christ was crucified, focuses on the very event depicted in the film. The day is dark and the gospel read asks the people in the church to cry, "Crucify him!"

On Good Friday, there are not other teachings, there are no other Gospel lessons preached. The day focuses on the incredible SACRIFICE--not the return from the dead to promise eternal life.

The passion of Christ is a necessary part of the story of the man-savior who must be killed in order to purge sin from the world.

The film is perfectly focused on that day.

It is not a film that says this is the most important point in Christ's ministry to mankind.

I take one theme away more than any other:
forgiveness.

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This message was edited by Captain Rooster on 3-7-04 @ 7:33 AM

reeshy

03-07-2004, 04:53 AM

I take one theme away more than any other: forgiveness.

I will take Jesus' lead and forgive you, Rooster, for not posting drunk on the board enough!!!!

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TheMojoPin

03-07-2004, 08:01 AM

Captain Rooster

03-07-2004, 09:01 AM

Well, it's kinda hard to forget Good Friday, since I've been to mass the last 24 of them.

My point is that Good Friday is a STEPPING STONE to the Resurrection. You can't have one without the other, ying and the yang, but the latter is clearly THE big event. THAT is the focus of the faith I follow, and what essentially created it.

I never said Gibson didn't do a good job of presenting the Passion itself...I said, and still maintain, that the story actually loses much of it's impact to non-Christians, or "on the fence Christians," without the Resurrection, which is ultimately far more important in the Christian scheme of things.

Would it have killed him to tack on an extra 20 minutes? Of course not. I just get frustrated when church leaders (And to a lesser degree, Gibson) suggest non-Christians should see this film to "understand what we're about" what in it all but leaves out the key event that *I* was always taught my faith is SUPPOSED to be all about.

But, ultimately, my faith isn't going to be directed nor influenced nor dictated by a film. It's irrelevant. At the end of the day, all this thing is is just a movie. It changes nothing, nor should it.

I understand what you are stating; I also agree with your view on the focus of faith--it should be focused on the anticipation of Easter. But Friday must take place for the savior to rise, and the horrific torture Christ endured (as well as witnesses throughout history--even in the world today!) needs to be seen by some to understand the strength of the love ethic Christ lived.

I just think every critic is sitting back and telling Gibson what he should have done, I disagree with that. He chose to focus a day of ultimate sacrifice paid by one man taking the world's sin on his shoulders.

Aside, digression--I know the Drunken Rooster has not been around lately; I have been trying to clean up my pathetic existence.

Mojo--you make fine points.

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East Side Dave

03-07-2004, 01:06 PM

They should make a sequel to "Passion" focusing more on the parts where Jesus walked on water and they could call it "Jesus H 2 O"!

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This message was edited by East Side Dave on 3-7-04 @ 5:08 PM

TheMojoPin

03-07-2004, 08:22 PM

Thanks, Rooster. Right back at'cha.

It's always great having you back around.

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Doctor Manhattan

03-08-2004, 04:21 AM

"Jesus H 2 O"!

"Jesus Water! when Jesus Juice is too strong..."

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TheMojoPin

03-18-2004, 10:02 PM

OK, I just found a brilliant analysis of whether "The Passion" is anti-semitic or not.

The short answer? Kindasortamaybebutnotreally.

It's long, and I'd link it but I found it on a news reader (Outlook) and have no idea how to do that.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Review and analysis:

The Passion of the Christ...

I'll get the primary question out of the way:

Yes, this film IS anti-semitic...

Whether it INTENTIONALLY so is another question.

Lets put that aside for a moment, and talk about the film as art.

It is beautifully photographed, as well it should be when the
cinematographer is Caleb Deschanel.

Gibson wanted the film to have an old world look, and Deschanel has
done a masterful job of emulating the paintings of renaissance painter
Caravaggio (for examples, see
http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/c/caravagg/).

When Yeshua is taken down from the cross, he lays in Mary's lap in
perfect (and beautiful) emulation of Michelangelo's Pieta (see
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/citta/B1-Pieta.html).

Another beautiful effect is, at the moment of Yeshua's death, a tear is
seen to fall from the heavens. It is at this moment that the earth
shakes.

There is NO denying the artistry of this film.

If Oscars were given our for endurance, James Caviezel would be a
shoe-in. However, he doesn't have an opportunity to do much acting.
The torture he endures so overwhelms that IT becomes the focus rather
the actor as Christ or Christ himself.

The real acting kudos go to Hristo Naumov Shopov as Pilate, and Maia
Morgenstern as Mary.

Since the character speaks in Aramaic and Hebrew, Morgenstern must
convey her sorrow and grief in body language and facial expression.
This she accomplishes admirably.

Satan (as portrayed by Rosalinda Celantano but voiced by a male actor) is
present throughout the film, and the Gospels mention his presence during
Yeshua's suffering, but I found "him" to be more of a distraction then
anything else. The screen time of the character would have been put to
better use portraying more of Yeshua's message of love and salvation, and
would have provided more of a counterbalance to the unrelenting gore. It's
the bloodiest film ever made with the possible exception of Bram Stroker's
Dracula and its rivers of blood.

This is NOT a film for kids. Regardless of explanations about Christ's
sacrifice, it is sure to give children nightmares.

I give film an A for execution (sic), and an F for content. It's continual
focus on sadistic torture does not convey Christ's message of love and
tolerance (Gibson's statement on the Tonight Show).

What then leads me to say is anti-semitic?

Caiphas and the Pharisees are portrayed as particularly corrupt, venal,
and evil. You almost expect Caiphas' teeth to be sharpened to a point. He
is seen looking on almost gleefully as Yeshua (as he is referred to
throughout the film in both Aramaic and English sub- titles) is tortured
and crucified

The film portrays Pilate as unsure and vacillating. But what we know of
him from history tells us he was anything but.

Those who have defended the film say it is true to the Gospels. They play
down the fact (since the premiere and Mel Gibson making the rounds of the
talk shows) that it is ALSO based on the Dolorous Passion of Our Lord
Jesus Christ, by Anne Catherine Emmerich,

It is THIS work that fills in much of the details. But is the the Dolorous
Passion based on an historical research? No... it is based on the
MEDITATIONS (that is, VISIONS) of Anne Catherine Emmerich, an Augustinian
nun at the Convent of Agnetenberg, Dulmen, Westphalia, Germany. She lived
between 1774 to 1824.

In reviewing the film it is reasonable to ask where the Gospels end and
writers Benedict Fitzgerald and Gibson begin.

The four Gospels themselves of course differ on details.

Per John Dominic Crossan (Professor Emeritus of Religious Studies at
DePaul), "Mark is the major source for that story used by Matthew and Luke
(historical cert