Former President: Reagan "strange" and "terrible"

[HBox]

Who is this former president? Richard Nixon. (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=513&ncid=703&e=9&u=/ap/20031210/ap_on_go_ot/nixon_tapes)

I'm sure we can expect all of the Reagan worshippers to desecrate the grave of Nixon.

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[A.J.]

I'm not surprised given Nixon's Machiavellian distrust of his "enemies". In 1972, he had probably considered Reagan a rival if not a threat.

Reagan became the GOP darling in 1964 after his speech endorsing Barry Goldwater. Reagan also won the Governorship of California after Nixon had lost 4 years before. And, Reagan was a potential GOP candidate in 1968.

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[high fly]

Reagan did good introducing "Death Valley Days".

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Furtherman]

When asked for a comment, Regan gave none because he answered the iron.

Stories like these really make me miss O&A and Regan calling up.

He was such good friends with those guys. Amazing.

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[high fly]

With Reagan daily faced with nothing more than deciding whether he wants the blue or the red Play-Doh, why the fuck should taxpayers still have to shell out for his "office"?

" and they ask me why I drink"

[HBox]

Stories like these really make me miss O&A and Regan calling up.

I can just imagine Anthony going back and forth between his Nixon and Reagan impressions.............sigh.

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[A.J.]

With Reagan daily faced with nothing more than deciding whether he wants the blue or the red Play-Doh, why the fuck should taxpayers still have to shell out for his "office"?

You are a cruel, cruel man.

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[high fly]

[quote]With Reagan daily faced with nothing more than deciding whether he wants the blue or the red Play-Doh, why the fuck should taxpayers still have to shell out for his "office"?

You are a cruel, cruel man.




Plus he's gotta sit there and watch Nancy batch to Sinatra...



" and they ask me why I drink"




This message was edited by high fly on 12-10-03 @ 2:32 PM

[KillOReilly]

I suppose Bill O'Reilly will be starting another protest. How dare anyone say something not totally ass kissingly sweet about Reagan!!!

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This message was edited by KillO'Reilly on 12-10-03 @ 3:21 PM

[Se7en]

Anyone with a basic understanding of Nixon's personality shouldn't be surprised he felt this way about Reagan.



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[high fly]

Y'know, I think I hate Nixon more now than I did back then....

" and they ask me why I drink"

[furie]

why do people still care about what Nixon said? How is this news?


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[reeshy]

You know, as much as I liked many of Nixon's policies, He couldn't shine Reagan's shoes!!!! my 2cents!

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[high fly]

Sorry about the smell- I used lysol and burned a candle, but I guess it wasn't enough to cover the odor of the big ol' Nixon I took right before you got here...

" and they ask me why I drink"

[NewYorkDragons80]

Well, I'm a very big supporter of Reagan and Goldwater, 2 men that openly distrusted Nixon. What was the point of this thread again? It is pretty well-documented that Reagan's charisma was mostly found in front of cameras or crowds. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that, but you can find someone better than Nixon to point that out.

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[high fly]

...just wish we'd hurry up and find them chem/bio weapons Reagan sold to Iraq...

" and they ask me why I drink"

[A.J.]

Those were already used against Iran and the Kurds.

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[high fly]

Oops, I forgot.


Back to the Play-Doh, Ronnie.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

Did Reagan manage to end being president of the world all while simply existing as a head in a jar?

I THINK NOT.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

I've seen reports of private corporations selling chemical weapons to Iraq, but is there any evidence of the US government selling anything but conventional weapons to Iraq?

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[high fly]

Yes. Private companies like Dow Chemical couldn't sell their wares until the government paved the way for them.
There was a hay-yooge, well researched article on the front page of the Washington Post last Dec.31st.

Also, John McCain, back in 1987, I think, got up on the Senate floor and bitched about us selling the bastards Tuleremia, a bio weapon we developed in the 60s.

Also, Drag, you'll recall that the anthrax used in the as-yet unsolved mail attacks-- those were the Ames strain. Of about 60 strains, guess which one we sold Saddam?

Reagan did this all at a time, by the way, that U.S. airliners were being targeted by terrorist barometric bombs. A few went off and we discovered a dozen or more others. And guess who was sponsoring the bombing campaign?
Fuckin' Iraq, that's who.
Iraq financed the operation, the bombs were made there, the terrorists were trained there...
Still a fan?


"and they ask me why I drink"

This message was edited by high fly on 12-20-03 @ 3:35 PM

[furie]

Did Reagan manage to end being president of the world all while simply existing as a head in a jar?


anamaniacs?


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[high fly]

anamaniacs?

I don't know, but that line about the head in the jar is funny as hell.

" and they ask me why I drink"




This message was edited by high fly on 12-16-03 @ 6:20 PM

[TheMojoPin]

anamaniacs?

"Futurama".

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[NewYorkDragons80]

I have no problem with the US selling guns to Iraq in the 80s, but the chemical weapons were fucked up. I am still not convinced that it was a direct action of the US government, though.

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[high fly]

[quote]I have no problem with the US selling guns to Iraq in the 80s, but the chemical weapons were fucked up. I am still not convinced that it was a direct action of the US government, though.




I, sir, DO have a problem with the U.S. violating international agreements and selling weapons to a nation engaged in a terror campaign against U.S. citizens.

If you will check the sources cited above, you will be convinced of Reagan's involvement in selling chem/bio weapons to Iraq.

Here's a couple of other references: the McCain accusation is contained in a paper he issued, and from which he spoke of on the Senate floor in October, 1988, and was quoted in a Washington Post article, Jan. 19, 1989. The same subject was covered in a N.Y. Times article on the previous day, but it cited "government officials". You can also check the Jan. 19th issue of The Washington Times which cited "State Department officials".

And, oh yes, at the time, the U.S. was leading an international embargo on arms sales to Iraq and Iran, and periodically bitched loudly when it was discovered that someone was violating it.


I also have a problem with an administration that, again, contrary to it's own laws, provides ransom to hostage-takers- in this case the bastards in Iran. By doing so, the expected results ensued-- they took more hostages. The ransom in this case largely consisted of hundreds of TOW antitank missiles.
The negotiations were carried out by Ollie North & Co. with so- called "moderates" in Iran. Those same "moderates" were those who planned and commanded operationally the bombing of the U.S. embassy in Beirut, which damned near wiped out our intelligence officers over there, plus other diplomats, as well as the bombing of the Marine barracks which killed 241 of them.
Some "moderates", huh?
Oh, and let's not forget what happened to those TOW missiles- they were instrumental in Iran taking the Faw Peninsula during the war, cutting off Iraqi oil exports. Iraq was broke and had no other way to buy arms in that long, expensive war, so they began more and more to rely on the WMDs.

Still a fan of those who sold arms to nations that were engaged in murdering your citizens?


" and they ask me why I drink"

This message was edited by high fly on 12-17-03 @ 3:41 PM

[TheMojoPin]

Why should we care? Our support of Israel's *wink-wink* nuclear program has been illegal from the get-go, but who's even pretending to notice?

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[high fly]

I was busy editing the above post while Mojo was responding.
I would point out that Israel has not been engaged in a campaign to blow U.S. airliners out of the sky, murder thousands with poison gas, or blow up U.S. troops or diplomats.



" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

No, but their program came after we signed a treaty we initiated where the signing parties agreed to not support or aid any countries that at that point did NOT have a nuclear program. Israel did not. Then it did. Partially thanks to us. Booooo. Hssssssss.

Of course they're not "bad" like Iraq. But just again shows how freewheeling we were in terms of delivering WMD capabilities to the Middle East.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 12-18-03 @ 6:07 PM

[high fly]

I agree. After all, from what I've read, we kinda helped Israel "steal" nuke stuff from us...


Hmmmm, Mr. NYDragons doesn't seem too eager to tackle the points I made.
Wonder why?

" and they ask me why I drink"

[LiquidCourage]

Nixon is just jealous. Even the members of his own party consider him an absolute scumbag, while Reagan is considered a Republican hero. While Reagan is considered conservative through and through, Nixon did more to advance the left wing agenda than any Democrat ever did.



And as far as selling chemical/bio weapons to Iraq, we should have sold more. Fuck Iran.

This message was edited by LiquidCourage on 12-18-03 @ 11:40 PM

[BoondockSaint]

"Nixon. He never let me down." --Hunter S. Thompson (Rolling Stone Obituary)

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[TheMojoPin]

Nixon is just jealous.

What, is he back in zombie-form or something?


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[smeagol]

By all means, share opinions of the Reagan years. disappointments, accomplishments, none of the above, whatever

Then, share what you think of Carter till 1980 and what would've been had he won four more years.
How about Dukakis oops er...Mondale had he won in 1984?

Some posts here seem to be some combination of personal smear, myopic, and/or...some kind of rage...tends to take away from the facts that may be in there as well.

So, why bother responding to these posts when you already know what the jist of the rebuttal will be?


25% or so of the voting Dems voted for Reagan in 1980, and 1984, rather than Carter or Dukakis.

I'll bet most people, regardless of politics or who they happened to have voted for whenever, are willing to give a senile old man some respect.

The Presidency deserves respect, all the way back to G. Washington.

Don't even think of messing with Washington.


"I am not a crook..." -- Richard Nixon
you rascal you

This message was edited by smeagol on 12-19-03 @ 6:35 PM

[A.J.]

Don't even think of messing with Washington.

He owned slaves. He's pure evil.

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[high fly]

By all means, share opinions of the Reagan years. disappointments, accomplishments, none of the above, whatever

Then, share what you think of Carter till 1980 and what would've been had he won four more years.
How about Dukakis had he won in 1984?

Some posts here seem to be some combination of personal smear, myopic, and/or...some kind of rage...tends to take away from the facts that may be in there as well.

So, why bother responding to these posts when you already know what the jist of the rebuttal will be?


25% or so of the voting Dems voted for Reagan in 1980, and 1984, rather than Carter or Dukakis.

I'll bet most people, regardless of politics or who they happened to have voted for whenever, are willing to give a senile old man some respect.

The Presidency deserves respect, all the way back to G. Washington.

Don't even think of messing with Washington.


"I am not a crook..." -- Richard Nixon
you rascal you





Why deal with fantasy or use speculation in order to avoid confronting the facts?

Carter didn't get much done, as he was blocked by the Republicans at every turn, plus he alienated many DC insiders and members of his own party by truly trying to be an "outsider".

Too bad Reagan couldn't match his honesty with us.
Reagan strengthened our enemies, lied to us and pursued illegal policies that brought ignominy on the presidency and got a lot of Americans killed.



While there was good in the man, Reagan is the subject of a phony hagiography that I cannot abide.Some Republicans have been desparate for their party to have a president as beloved as JFK. They want it to be Reagan.
They also want a Democrat to be as despised as Nixon. They've tried that with Clinton.
Neither will work.



" and they ask me why I drink"






This message was edited by high fly on 12-19-03 @ 5:21 PM

[smeagol]

Why deal with fantasy or use speculation in order to avoid confronting the facts?

Carter didn't get much done, as he was blocked by the Republicans at every turn, plus he alienated many DC insiders and members of his own party by truly trying to be an "outsider".

Too bad Reagan couldn't match his honesty with us.
Reagan strengthened our enemies, lied to us and pursued illegal policies that brought ignominy on the presidency and got a lot of Americans killed.



Carter - Dem majority in Senate all 4 years
Carter - Dem majority in House all 4 years

Exactly who where the Republicans that "blocked" President Carter?


Other Washington "outsiders" besides Gov Carter:

Gov Reagan
Gov Clinton
Gov GW Bush


President Carter response to the hostage taking--
"An act of terrorism totally outside the bounds of international law and diplomatic tradition. A crisis [that] calls for firmness and restraint."

Unfortunately, firmness nor restraint is a response.

Unfortunately for all Americans, the Carter Presidency simply never got off the ground.


To be fair, President Reagan hightailed it out of Lebanon after 200+ Marines were bombed (suspected by Hizballah). That was a sign of weakness and invited further attacks.

We still have a score to settle with Hizballah and their supporters. We're getting there, they're on the list.
Sign of progress: no longer will families of Hizballah homicide bombers receive $50,000 (I think that's the figure) from SADDAM.


The Reagan Presidency, with defense buildup, Pershing II deployment, SDI, won the cold war.
Go ahead, say it would've happened anyway.
That would be one way to look at it.

President Reagan was not a fan of communism, anywhere in the world. In his zeal he obviously made mistakes:

--March 4, 1987: On national television, Reagan on Iran-Contra.
"A few months ago I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions tell me that's true, but the facts and evidence tell me it is not. As the Tower Board reported, what began as a strategic opening to Iran deteriorated, in its implementation, into trading arms for hostages. This runs counter to my own beliefs, to administration policy, and to the original strategy we had in mind. There are reasons why it happened, but no excuses. It was a mistake."


As for Iran-Iraq, more mistakes no doubt. No excuses for our involvement, nor Britain's, nor France's, nor Germany's in any sort of WMD with respect to anyone, anytime.

Iran was, and is, our enemy. Support of Saddam, in concept and perspective, not with brilliant hindsight, was primarily to contain the fervor of Iran.
Even though it was Saddam that started the war.
What a mess.


--Joe Wilson, the last U.S. official to meet with Hussein before Kuwait.
"Everybody was wrong in their assessment of Saddam. Everybody in the Arab world told us that the best way to deal with Saddam was to develop a set of economic and commercial relationships that would have the effect of moderating his behavior. History will demonstrate that this was a miscalculation."


Go ahead, blame America first, blame Reps first, blame Dems first. Then blame all you care to blame.

Now, after that flaming blaming, what are you going to do next?
I mean, you're still standing in the same spot.
You haven't moved forward one inch.

[high fly]

Carter- Dem majority in Senate all 4 years
Carter- Dem majority in House all 4 years

Exactly who were the Republicans that (sic) "blocked" President Carter?

The answer to that is in the second part of the sentence--"...plus he alienated many D.C. insiders and members of his own party".


Other Washington "outsiders"
Gov Reagan
Gov Clinton
Gov GW Bush

When you look at the way they operated, the stafers they hired and the officials they appointed, the 3 you cite worked much more within the system than Carter did.


To be fair, President Reagan hightailed it out of Lebanon after 200+ Marines were bombed (suspected by Hizbollah. That was a sign of weakness and invited further attacks

You are correct, but it's even bigger than that.
First off, Reagan's very deployment invited attacks, as at first he -GET THIS- ordered that the troops couldn't carry loaded weapons. He also had them in a low area by the airport, with overlooking hills and apartment buildings-- the high ground- occupied by the bad guys.
Secondly, he restricted them in their responses to the constant sniping and shelling they were forced to endure.
Third, not only were 241 Marines blown up, the embassy was bombed, Americans were kidnapped, the CIA station chief was kidnapped and slowly tortured (which was filmed and the video sent to the CIA), and so on.
Hezbollah was a key player, true, but you're missing the bigger picture.

The officers that organized, financed, planned and commanded the above attacks were the very same "moderates" that Reagan claimed to be reaching out to.

I hardly think that Reagan's describing these deaths and suffering as a "mistake" is adequate.


The Reagan Presidency with defense buildup, Pershing II deployment, SDI, won the cold war


What role did those things play in the Solidarity Movement that got rid of the commies in Poland, and was then emulated throughout the Soviet Bloc?
It was this movement by people who threw off communism that destroyed the old Soviet Union.
Reagan did nothing more than you or I--he watched it on t.v.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[A.J.]

First off, Reagan's very deployment invited attacks, as at first he -GET THIS- ordered that the troops couldn't carry loaded weapons. He also had them in a low area by the airport, with overlooking hills and apartment buildings-- the high ground- occupied by the bad guys.
Secondly, he restricted them in their responses to the constant sniping and shelling they were forced to endure.
Third, not only were 241 Marines blown up, the embassy was bombed, Americans were kidnapped, the CIA station chief was kidnapped and slowly tortured (which was filmed and the video sent to the CIA), and so on.
Hezbollah was a key player, true, but you're missing the bigger picture.

The officers that organized, financed, planned and commanded the above attacks were the very same "moderates" that Reagan claimed to be reaching out to.

I hardly think that Reagan's describing these deaths and suffering as a "mistake" is adequate.


It was a "mistake" in the sense that Reagan didn't want to "offend" our Arab hosts by bringing in an armed force. The same mistake was repeated during the USS COLE incident.

What role did those things play in the Solidarity Movement that got rid of the commies in Poland, and was then emulated throughout the Soviet Bloc?

That, along with the Reagan's buildup/Pershing II deployment/SDI, led to the collapse of the Soviet Union. The country had been bankrupted and the people had enough.

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[high fly]

[


It was a "mistake" in the sense that Reagan didn't want to "offend" our Arab hosts by bringing in an armed force. The same mistake was repeated during the USS COLE incident.

Reagan chose not to "offend" the Iraqis after one of their fighters pu 2 Exocets into the USS Stark, also, as well as after they bombed that PanAm flight from Tokyo to Honolulu and Iraqi bombs were found on another PanAm flight from London to Rio de Janiero as well as another US airliner.

What role did those things play in the Solidarity Movement that got rid of the commies in Poland, and was then emulated throughout the Soviet Bloc?

QUOTE That, along with the Reagan's buildup/Pershing II deployment/SDI, led to the collapse of the Soviet Union. The country had been bankrupted and the people had enough.

The failure of the Soviet system to provide liberty, government services or economic opportunity had nothing to do with the Reagan deployments. It was simply a system that just didn't work and would have collapsed due to it's own failures no matter what we did.

I still fail to see any connection between the Pershing II, SDI, or the military buildup and the Solidarity Movement and it's imitators.

" and they ask me why I drink"



This message was edited by high fly on 12-22-03 @ 3:22 PM

[dassal3399]

Now that's one President that should have smoked weed and inhaled big time!!

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