11/23 - Iraq: Somalia Part II?

[TheMojoPin]

This is just awful. That's it. I can't say anything else about it.

Iraqi teenagers dragged the bloody bodies of two American soldiers from a wrecked vehicle and pummeled them with concrete blocks Sunday, witnesses said, describing a burst of savagery in a city once safe for Americans. Another soldier was killed by a bomb and a U.S.-allied police chief was assassinated. (http://www.msnbc.com/news/870749.asp?)

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[HBox]

These are the people who supposedly deserve the freedom that our troops are paying for with blood.

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

[FUNKMAN]

i just read that earlier and it made me sick! i don't want to over-react but it makes you feel like there may be no hope for peace or democracy there. there are too many terrorist organizations and too many people who want to be terrorists, and too many 'illegal/lethal' weapons and explosives in their hands.

i'd say get our guys out. when Iraq falls into the hand of another tyrant and their citizens are being murdered, tortured, or imprisoned let the UN and the rest of the nations of the world go in and we'll then provide equal support as them.

hindsight is 20/20 but now looking back, was it so bad to keep the inspections going. we've spent billions of dollars already and we could've used that money towards US Intelligence which is the 'key' in preventing terrorist attacks...

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and when you're bad you die when you die

[TheMojoPin]

We can't leave now. Well, we literally can, but if we do we're just setting ourselves up for more pain in the near future. That's the fucked up part.

This is so disgusting.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Doomstone]

Bring 'em on!

Is this what one should normally expect when being "welcomed as liberators"?

[monsterone]

i feel no sympathy for these sick animals.

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<center>you bunch of jackalopes</center>

[FUNKMAN]

i'd hate to think Bush would delay pulling us out because it will make him seem like a failure and risk his re-election bid. the economy is still hurting and unemployment is still at an almost 'all-time high' . i would give him credit for pulling out now.

<img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/funkman.gif">

and when you're bad you die when you die

[GrimSanity]

i can only say it's terrible that so many have to lose there lives over nothing. and i can also ask the question is all these deaths worth the damn oil.

http://members.aol.com/TheToddsterLSP/sigpics/grimsanity1.gif

Real serial killers carry an ax

[Justice4all]

This is getting rediculous! When I saw this on the AOL news ticker I almost threw the monitor across my room!yes there are people who we are fighting for but apparently these are not them! I can understand MAYBE if this was a group whose family lost their lives or their homes from a bomb that was dropped but do not kill someone with your bare hands after they were IN A FUCKING CAR ACCIDENT! how much do you want to bet that the accident was CAUSED by them in the first place.
I say that you allow the soliders to shoot on sight ANY acts of agression being witness from Iraqui civilians to any US miliatary force or US friendly Police force.
If they see 4 teen agers about to pummel a police officer or a US soldier TO DEATH open fire.
They will think twice before they kill someone who does not deserve to die...especially like that!

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NyQuil..NyQuil..NyQuil....We LOVE you...you GIANT FUCKING Q!!!!!!!!

This message was edited by Justice4all on 11-24-03 @ 3:37 AM

[ChrisTheCop]

These are the people who supposedly deserve the freedom that our troops are paying for with blood.
Good thing theyre not african-americans, or that statement would be called a generalization. In case my sarcasm didnt grab ya, we arent fighting for the criminals, we're fighting for the decent people who deserve a chance. There are innocent Iraqis dying too. Please read your history, lotsa lives were lost for Americas freedom too.

<img src="http://rfcop.50megs.com/images/aldukesfan-christhecop.gif">thanks adf

[Se7en]

What do you expect?

We can't even fire weapons into the AIR (http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20031031-113801-9689r.htm) to intimidate our prisoners. Why should these people fear us?

<center><img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/KyoSe7en.jpg" width="300" height="125">
<br>
<br>
Resistance is <b>FLAMMABLE.</b></center>

[Furtherman]

Holy S - I cannot believe that article I just read. He shot a round into the air, the guy talked and an ambush was foiled.

Give Lt. Col. Allen West a medal.



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[HBox]

Please read your history, lotsa lives were lost for Americas freedom too.

Yeah, AMERICAN lives.

I know it was a generalization, but I was extremely angry. Heroic people signed up with the military to protect THIS country, not Iraq. After all I have seen so far, nothing has convinced me that we have eliminated a legitimate threat to the safety of our nation.

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

[Tazz]

Does anyone realize that if the US pulls out now, Iraq would have no government or authorities. That would make it one big terrorist playground.

This is one unfortunate incident, and I wish you people would realize that not all Iraqis feel that way about Americans, and that most of the terrorist attacks in the last few months in the country are not carried out by Iraqi citizens. The terrorism in Iraq lately has been against all people, be it US Armed Forces, the Armed Forces of other countries, AND civilians. These people aren't out to kill Americans, they are out to kill period.

<img src=http://tazz1376.homestead.com/files/homersig.gif>

[TheMojoPin]

Tazz is right, but something about this just seems so much worse than that. Less than being a terrorist strike, it just seems like a spontaneous act of rage, anger and even fear. In some ways that seems even MORE dangerous...

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Se7en]

Heroic people signed up with the military to protect THIS country, not Iraq. After all I have seen so far, nothing has convinced me that we have eliminated a legitimate threat to the safety of our nation.

Dude, don't we provide something like half of the troops for the United Nations?

Don't act as if this is the first time that American soldiers have died for something other than direct American interests. It happens quite a bit.

<center><img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/KyoSe7en.jpg" width="300" height="125">
<br>
<br>
Resistance is <b>FLAMMABLE.</b></center>

[billyio]

Does anyone realize that if the US pulls out now, Iraq would have no government or authorities. That would make it one big terrorist playground


Like Afghanistan has a stable government?



Less than being a terrorist strike, it just seems like a spontaneous act of rage, anger and even fear. In some ways that seems even MORE dangerous...


I agree,but I don't feel that it is spontaneous. There is a history of anti-Western and Anti-Americanism within contemporary Shi'ite societies that Americans fail to understand. Look at the Iran hostage crisis. We had warnings for years about the downfall of the Shah and the American presence there,but we just failed to understand it. One of the things that I agree with in Said's Orientalism is the West's unrealistic perception of the Moslem. Technocracy and wealth do not equal friendship.

I think it would be better if we "speeded up" the installation of a new gov in Iraq. Why should anymore Americans have to die? Saving lives is better than saving face contrary to pragmatic politicking. The cycle is never going to end.(sigh)

On another note, I just read in the Times that Bush spared the traditional turkey for Thanksgiving. How about sparing some humans now?

See Ya!

[HBox]

Look, we shouldn't have been there in the first place, and now we have to have our troops die day after day because if we leave, Iraq will truly become a terrorist haven. We commit troops to the U.N., but they don't die at the rate they are dying in Iraq. We are sinking billions of dollars and hundreds of lives into this stupid fucking country, and I don't care how much they will cherish Democracy or suck our dicks. We are paying for this and will continue to, and we didn't have to do it in the first place.

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

[curtoid]

The longer we stay the more we look like invaders, even to those who once viewed us as liberators.

Mojo is right, though - we can't leave now. The time for that was last spring when the entire world said not to go in. We had our own time table, though, and we couldn't be convinced otherwise.

The U.S. people were sold a bill of goods on Iraq that wasn't true then, but has become true now.

[KOP]

[high fly]

This just sickens me, which is nothing new.
This whole damne thing in Iraq has put a sick feeling in my gut from before we went in.

Buck up, gang, there is going to be a lot more of this.
We're going to see worse, even.

We as voters MUST hold the administration acountable for wasting the cream of our young on this stupid folly.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Doomstone]

I just wonder when we get to see everyone who talked about "liberation" and "mushroom clouds" apologize for not knowing a damn thing, and retire from public life forever.

[keithy_19]

The only thing I blame the administration for is for trying to be civil with the people over there. Let the soldiers be soldiers instead of police.

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One thing I've never said. I'm truly happy in my heart and in my head...

[Doomstone]

The only thing I blame the administration for is for trying to be civil with the people over there. Let the soldiers be soldiers instead of police.


What do you mean by this?

[TheMojoPin]

The only thing I blame the administration for is for trying to be civil with the people over there. Let the soldiers be soldiers instead of police.

Great catchphrase, isn't it? But what does it actually mean?

Not a damn thing.

At some point you need to establish an internal system within the country. Soldiers acting as an invading army can't do that for the longterm. It simply can't work. You're essentially saying you want our troops to fight a neverending war as opposed to trying to establish some kind of precedent that will allow them to actually leave.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[high fly]

10 years later, we're still in Kosovo....

" and they ask me why I drink"

[FUNKMAN]

in Kosovo the bad guys prefer to live, in Iraq they don't give a camels cock...

key difference...

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and when you're bad you die when you die

[Yerdaddy]

That's only partially true. Most of the attacks in Iraq are not suicide bombings, it's conventional geurilla attacks. More relevant is the force levels. In Bosnia, the ratio of security forces to the population was 18 soldiers for each 1,000 inhabitants. In Kosovo, it was 20 per thousand. In Iraq, it's only seven. There just aren't enough troops to expect the same kind of security you have in those other places. Notice the president doesn't talk about the size of iraq when it comes to troop levels, like he did when talking about weapons inspectors?

<a href="http://www.rand.org/publications/randreview/issues/summer2003/burden.html" target="_blank">RAND - The Painful Arithmetic of Stability Operations</a>

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TEAR THE BITCH APART!

[Se7en]

We as voters MUST hold the administration acountable for wasting the cream of our young on this stupid folly.

You're so fucking full of shit with this line.

If you want to hold the administration accountable, that's fine - it's your right as an American.

But don't cop this "they're wasting the cream of our young" bullshit, because it's so fucking naive and stupid.

This isn't like World War fucking One where the British literally sacrificed their young in the Battle of Somme and other campaigns, and no matter how much you try to equate it this isn't Vietnam with 55,000 dead Americans.

Christ almighty, don't be so fucking melodramatic.

<center><img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/KyoSe7en.jpg" width="300" height="125">
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<br>
Resistance is <b>FLAMMABLE.</b></center>

[Recyclerz]

These people aren't out to kill Americans, they are out to kill period.


To follow on to Yerdaddy's point, the targets are us, our allies, any Iraqis cooperating with us and, with the UN and embassy bombings, any international organization that will give a new government supported by us legitimacy. For example, it has been well reported that most of the road side bombs killing our people have warnings written in Arabic to warn the locals away.

The pustules we're fighting have made the judgement we'll leave as soon as we lose enough of our people, leaving a power vacuum they think they'll fill. (Unfortunately for them, I think they're more likely to find out how sharp those Shia ceremonial swords are whilst they're being hacked to death.) By scaring our potential Iraqi allies into inaction, it becomes impossible for us to build the institutions we're supposed to be creating so that they will have the foundations for a civil society.

By killing our people in increasingly brutal ways (anybody want to guarantee that we don't have some contractors or soldiers kidnapped, put on "trial" and executed, all on video tape on al-Jazeera?) they know they'll provoke us into a mode where our people start shooting at anybody who looks at them funny. And it won't be long until we'll have officially worn out our welcome and be forced out.

And our buddies in al-Qaeda will have the propoganda victory they've been waiting for. And W will have made it way too easy for them to get it.



[b]Sig-less in Gaza[b]

[HBox]

I read an article in the Times today refuting this story. What happened was they crashed after being shot. No slitting of throats, no dragging through the streets.

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[high fly]

I find it strangely comforting that SE7EN is so comfortable with what happened to these soldiers.

The bitch about this is that the administration is giving us all tunnel and no light.

Let's see how sanguine SE7EN is when the bastards over there capture an American and put the torture video out all over the internet.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Se7en]

I'm not comfortable with what's happening to our soldiers.

On the same token, though, I'm also very uncomfortable with your incredible overreaction to the situation.

I invite you to go read some history of warfare - specifically go read something on the Battle of Somme during World War I.

When you do, let me know, because you'll understand just how amazingly foolish it is for you to apply a line like "wasting the cream of our youth" to this situation.

<center><img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/KyoSe7en.jpg" width="300" height="125">
<br>
<br>
Resistance is <b>FLAMMABLE.</b></center>

[Yerdaddy]

From the Chicago Tribune, (membership req., so no link):
Soldiers not mutilated by mob in Iraq, coalition says

By Christine Spolar, Tribune foreign correspondent. Tribune news services contributed to this report

November 25, 2003

BAGHDAD -- The two American soldiers killed Sunday in the northern Iraqi town of Mosul died from gunshot wounds to their heads, an official with the U.S.-led coalition said Monday, while a medical examination contradicted witness and early military accounts that the bodies had been mutilated.

"The soldiers were not cut, nor were their throats slashed," said a spokesman familiar with an initial coalition report filed Monday on the incident. Witness accounts that the men were savagely beaten in a rampage by Iraqis also were unsubstantiated, the report said.

"We have no indication that happened," the spokesman said.

Military sources and witnesses said the soldiers were driving in a four-wheel-drive civilian vehicle when a car in front of them stopped. At least two armed people emerged from that car, investigators determined, and shot at the soldiers through the windshield.

Bystanders soon swarmed the car, pulled out the soldiers and looted their personal effects, including watches, money and helmets, investigators found.

The findings contradicted news service reports that teenagers had used concrete blocks to beat the soldiers and dragged the bodies through the streets--reminiscent of what happened to U.S. soldiers a decade ago in Mogadishu, Somalia.

In addition, the military's initial situation report on Sunday night indicated that the soldiers had been mutilated and slashed in the attack.

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TEAR THE BITCH APART!

[high fly]

I invite you to go read some history of warfare

I have, and not only that, grew up with historic figures whose exploits can be found in said history books, men who fought in forgotten places like Guadalcanal, Pelileu, Tarawa, Chosin Reservoir, to name a few.
One thing I learned from these heroes is that every serviceman's life is precious, that there is no such thing as "light casualties" and the importance of being more circumspect in sending them off to war.

I await your comparison of the battle of the Somme to the current situation in Iraq, and how the lessons learned in trench warfare apply to Iraq.

Those we have lost are indeed the "cream of our youth" and their lives have been "wasted" because they went in under false pretenses. The total cost of this war far outweigh any benefits.
Iraq was not a threat to this country, plain and simple.
We are isolated at a time when we need allies.
The terrorists are just as capable as they were before.
The conduct of this war will make it even more dificult to retain good, experienced soldiers.

I will offer the following quote from one of the heroes I used to know. This is what he told President Johnson about Viet Nam, back about 1964:

"We don't need to waste our resources in that pisspot."

The man was General David Shoup. Ring a bell? I thought not.
I knew him well.
Any good history book on the Pacific Campaign in WWII will tell you of his Congressional Medal of Honor -earning performance on Tarawa.

We shouldn't be wasting our resources in that pisspot, Iraq.

" and they ask me why I drink"

This message was edited by high fly on 11-29-03 @ 3:52 PM