A question to be answered as Americans right and Left.

[Bigden]

I heard General Meyers the Chief of Staff mention this to a reporter.

" We have freed two Muslim nations from Tyranny in two years with minimal civilian casualties in both conflicts."

Then as Americans- why do these Muslim folks still hate us so much-(Don't answer that we didn't rebuild the countries because its to soon for that)

What is it going to take to get them to like us? I don't get it- we supply food, medical supplies to the entire world including Afghanistan and the Middle East. Will it take the removal of the fiery clerics in these countries to turn the tide?
U.S. brokered Peace between the Israelies and Palestinians?

[A.J.]

What is it going to take to get them to like us?

When we all convert to Islam.

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[Bigden]

You might be right. I guess we could just have a good old crusade. We can put crosses on our helmets and fight them all. The only problem is we are a diverse society. Oh yeah.. thats why we are so great.
Well maybe I suddenly don't care why they like or dislike us. F-them I am going to sit back have some ham, swill some beer, read some porn, maybe even eat a little bacon. F-them all- give us oil or we will shoot you, and don't jap us like you did last time because we will find you and kill you.

[Heavy]

What is it going to take to get them to like us?

We will all have to realize that women are dirty and are for poppin kids out and young men are for pleasure.

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[furie]

When we all convert to Islam.


beat me to it. that's it in a nutshell. They'll never like us, and we shouldn't be so concerned with winning their affections.

When did the USA become a teenaged girl with low self esteem?

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[HBox]

Then as Americans- why do these Muslim folks still hate us so much


Because every time we have gotten invovled in the Middle East prior to Iraq we have supported brutal, oppresive regimes to further our own interests. It may be easy for Americans to brush that kind of stuff off, but people in the Middle East had to live it or watch their neighbors live it.

Saying they hate us because we are a free society is incredibly egotistical. It may make you feel better, but its far from the truth. 99% of people in the Middle East could care less what we do in America as long as we stay out of their business, or at the very least, stop fucking them up the ass.

[DarkHippie]

Here's a good analogy:

Two drunk brothers are fighting in a bar. Someone steps in to break it up. What do the brothers' do? They turn around and beat the shit out of that guy.

The arabs feel that all of the business that is happening in the middle east is their business-- family business, you might say, and that we have no right to interfere, no matter how good our intentions are. its like steping in the middle of a domestic dispute--always bad news.

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[Gvac]

its like steping in the middle of a domestic dispute--always bad news.
I agree, and yet it doesn't make it right to sit idly by, either.

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[CaptClown]

Hell freezing over.

Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army
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[DarkHippie]

I agree, and yet it doesn't make it right to sit idly by, either.
Hmmm. . . Maybe we should get the Middle East counciling ;)

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[Drudge Jr.]

Hbox is completely right. i read a noam chomsky speach about a wide poll of muslims across the middle east, of if they hated america and if so why, the response was for supporting repressive regimes in the interest of oil. this type of thing the us has done all over the world, the imperialistic message that if you break out of the client state system we will nuke your democracy.

the solution to preventing terror is simple, dont support it. the united states is the leading terrorist state. there's your answer.

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This message was edited by Drudge Jr. on 5-14-03 @ 7:35 PM

[HBox]

i read a noam chomsky speach


I appreciate that you agree with me, but please don't sully my name by mentioning this guy. I read an essay of his that he wrote the day after 9/11, which was basically an anti-American diatribe, which basically boiled down to an argument agaisnt missile defense. Oh, and he also tried to argue that the Sudan bombing was a bigger "terrorist action" than 9/11 by many times. He is just as guilty of trying to mainpulate 9/11 to further his extremist ideals as Wolfowitz or that Neo-Conservative group that was calling for Iraq to be taken down way before 9/11. I disagree with his views, but my problem is his insensitivity. Could he have waited a little longer than ONE DAY after the biggest national tragedy of most of our lifetimes to spew his bile?

Sorry to take this thread off course, but I really hate that guy.

[LiquidCourage]

Noam Chomsky?
You've got to be kidding me.

[LiquidCourage]

Oh and I forgot....





























Death to Israel!

[Death Metal Moe]

If they hate us for supposedly supporting repressive, brutal regeims, why don't they hate the regeims more? This is a smoke screen answer give to try to cover up the real problem.

They hate Jews, and resent the allies setting up a Jewish state in the middle of their camel farm. So anyone who supports Israel is also to blame.

But they swear up and down at peace talks they want to work with the US and Jews.

I HOPE Iraq shows them that keeping on the terrorism road will only lead to their destruction.

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[LiquidCourage]

Let's just hope for their destruction.

[LiquidCourage]

Let's just provoke a few Arab countries into going to war with a few others. That'll "clean up" the region.

[TheMojoPin]

I'd only hope for something like that if I actually had the sac to step up and do it myself.

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[HBox]

If they hate us for supposedly supporting repressive, brutal regeims, why don't they hate the regeims more?


They do, but they hate us too, and our support for Israel has more than a little to do with it. However, in most cases our support was the only thing keeping these regimes in power, and in the case of Iran, even that wasn't enough. And here we are continuing to support the Saudi Royal Family. Why, Why, Why?

[Se7en]

Then as Americans- why do these Muslim folks still hate us so much-(Don't answer that we didn't rebuild the countries because its to soon for that)

Hbox and the other liberal here (Drudge) sort of oversimplify the situation.

That's ONE reason why they dislike us. Honestly, that's not the biggest reason why they hate us, it's just a big reason why it's easy to drum up support for anti-American terrorism.

There are various other reasons. Biggest of them all is that we support Israel, because no matter what ANYONE else EVER tells you, this does ultimately always boil down to us supporting those evil, oppressive Jews.

Outside of that, they dislike us because of basic cultural differences. Go listen to a Bin Laden speech. It's full of the typical "America is decadent, America is immoral, America are infidels for failing to recognize the one true god Allah, etc." rhetoric.

a. What is it going to take to get them to like us?

b. Will it take the removal of the fiery clerics in these countries to turn the tide?

c. U.S. brokered Peace between the Israelies and Palestinians?

a) What will it take to get them to "like" us? Hell if I know. They probably won't ever entirely "like" us, due to cultural difference, but we may get to a point where they're not actively supporting terrorism against us. Depends mainly on two things now: what becomes of Iraq, and how far we advance the Israeli / Palestine peace process.

b) Couldn't hurt to remove those clerics, IMO. We do that, though, and we probably run into trouble.

c) See a.

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Cap sez: The mods are all Nazi fascist cocksuckers drunk with power. Does THAT fit inside 3 lines, asshole?

[Death Metal Moe]

Yea! I hate Drudge Jr. too!

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[TheMojoPin]

Hbox and the other liberal here (Drudge) sort of oversimplify the situation.

Hmmmmm.

Hbox and Drudge sort of oversimplify the situation.

Was that so friggin' painful?

Ultimately, if we do nothing, we get screwed in the end. If we go balls out and try to "fight" Muslim extremism like what we just did in Iraq, we'd have to go war with practically the entire Middle East, Eastern Asia, parts of Southeast Asia, and the northern and eastern coasts of Africa, and we'd more than likely end up screwed in the end. Grand. Can't we ALL just shake hands and declare war on France instead?

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[HBox]

Outside of that, they dislike us because of basic cultural differences. Go listen to a Bin Laden speech


Well, Mr. Conservative, you are right to a certain extent. But Bin Laden is not the spokesperson for the Arab world. He is one of the biggest voices of fundamentalism, who are against anything not Islam, which would include us and everything we stand for. But that is far from a majority of Arabs, and not one of the major causes of American hatred.

But our support of Israel is one of the biggest reasons a lot of them hate us. Maybe the only reason for some. But that is unavoidable.

[Bigden]

"But our support of Israel is one of the biggest reasons a lot of them hate us. Maybe the only reason for some. But that is unavoidable."


Good point. We chose Israel the only democracy in the Middle East, and every decision has a cost. If we ever let the choke hold off the dog the Palestinians would be gone in a hurray. The Arabs count on our restraint. I wonder if they are thinking twice now that we rolled through the Republican Guard in two weeks. All they understand is the sword, and we brought the sword. I think that we are in a good position to rectify some long standing debts. I.E. Some of us still want Iran to pay for the hostage crisis, and their support of terror through Hezbollah. We are in the position now to negotiate peace in the region. I am a student of history, and now is a very critical time for our nation. Here's how I see it:

1) The best scenario- Through our show of force removing a dictator the rest of the Arab world realizes that they cannot continue supporting terror, and repressing their people. Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan even Eygpt- an alleged ally- all begin to change their ways. Syria pledges to turn over terrorists in their country- can you blame them with the most advanced and deadly military division ever assembled The Fourth I.D. at their doorstep. Iran- who we are having clandestine discussions with as we speak- embraces the changes in Iraq, and with its highly educated populace enters the non-terrorist world by pledging to stop the terrorists in its midst. The fiery clerics in Saudi Arabia are silenced by the Saudi royal family who stop hiding themselves behind the cloak of Wahabism. I am an optimist but the Saudi's will never change until we bring the sword to them- but I digress.

2) The bad scenario- Iraq degenerates into a radical Shiite theocracy and we have two Irans to deal with. The Rest of the Middle East continues to support terrorism, and we are forced to confront the Saudi's. I don't think that we can fight them all, but ousting the royal family would be a good start. Iran seeing Iraq as an extension moves in and now controls much of the worlds oil. Seeing Iran as an agressor we return to the Middle East, and fight a much more advanced and well equipped military. I hope this doesn't happen, but we must be vigilant now to keep the Iranian intelligence aparatus out of Iraq- with a majority of Shiites in Iraq, the Iranians could have alot of sway in the worlds largest oil producer.

I root for #1 and hope to God that #2 doesn't happen.

[JerryTaker]

If we go balls out and try to "fight" Muslim extremism like what we just did in Iraq, we'd have to go war with practically the entire Middle East, Eastern Asia, parts of Southeast Asia, and the northern and eastern coasts of Africa


And this is the reason why Bin Laden et. al. can continue to scream about the "Zionists" attacking Islam itself. This Is why I didn't like the war in Iraq, not because I didn't want Saddam out, but the <I>TIMING</I> is so bad...

If we do continue to beat up on primarily Islamic countries, how long before the fundamentalists use our actions to "convince" the rest of the islamic population that there is a war on islam, and they diclare full Jihad on us, What then? The Shiekhas(sp?) in our colleges start stabbing any american they see, left and right?

(Then again I guess the "Dirty, stinking know-nothing liberal college students" deserve it, hm?)

Being across the street from NJIT, this was my biggest fear on 9/11, as events unfolded... and it could still happen, depending on just how proud of their religion these people are.


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This message was edited by JerryTaker on 5-15-03 @ 10:30 AM

[Bigden]

"Being across the street from NJIT, this was my biggest fear on 9/11, as events unfolded... and it could still happen, depending on just how proud of their religion these people are."

Please..... The students that are still studying in the U.S. are undoubtably not into terror. Most of them have been routed out and expelled and imprisoned. Also what makes you think that those students have the guts with hundreds of other good Americans around to kick their asses? I would say that you fear these people too much, and thats what they want. I lost a few friends on 9/11, and had quite a few nightmares after it, but I am not for a second afraid of those cowards. I and alot of other people would relish the chance to take on one of those gutless cowards who wrap themselves in the Koran.

[DarkHippie]

I think most arabs see Israel as an extention of the "western meddlers." (there is some logic to this, as the Zionist movement partially originated in America)

Therefore, this relates back to what I was saying before, that Arabs don't want outside interference in their problems.

Historically, I would go back to the fall of the Ottoman Empire after WWI and its systematic carving as the seed for this lovely thorn bush of pricks we have to deal with. The establishment of Israel was just the final straw--where all the other countries were eventually given independence, the Holy Land was given to westerners (in the Arabs POV)

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[JerryTaker]

Please..... The students that are still studying in the U.S. are undoubtably not into terror. Most of them have been routed out and expelled and imprisoned


and what experience do you have with this? how many multi-cultural student centers did you spend any time in, and how much time? How many conversations did you eavesdrop on between palastinean and caribbean groups, where they had to use english to communicat to each other, about how "evil" America is? How we should be destroyed? or do you just not pay attention to non-americans? Open your eyes and ears, dammit...



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[TheMojoPin]

Historically, I would go back to the fall of the Ottoman Empire after WWI and its systematic carving as the seed for this lovely thorn bush of pricks we have to deal with. The establishment of Israel was just the final straw--where all the other countries were eventually given independence, the Holy Land was given to westerners (in the Arabs POV)

Beyond that, many of these Arab "countries" like Iraq and Kuwait were simply lumped together and created by the exiting colonists, so you group together all these tribes and states that hate each other to begin with. Talk about a mess waiting to happen...

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[A.J.]

Beyond that, many of these Arab "countries" like Iraq and Kuwait were simply lumped together and created by the exiting colonists, so you group together all these tribes and states that hate each other to begin with. Talk about a mess waiting to happen...

The same thing happened in Africa.

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[TheMojoPin]

Hey, I'm just trying to stay positive. I do still have hopes we can pull of reconstructing Iraq in some workable independent form that's fair to the people there and keeps them as an ally to us. If we CAN do that, it'll take a LOT of the weight out of the terrorist lies that claim we simply exist to destroy Muslims and Arabs. Sure, it's not a "cure all", but it would be a big help. But then I look at Afghanistan and feel all funky again...

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[Bigden]

I live near non of those centers and don't plan on being near any soon. However, I am in Manhattan all the time, and see plenty of people I wonder about. The cost of being in the greatest city on earth. I will take my chances like everyone else- keep my eyes and ears open amd be aware- but never afraid.

[Bigden]

I agree I think we will pull off the transition in Iraq. However, the fact the Shiite majority hates the Sunni Baath party former rullers (Saddam) and the Kurds hate both of them will make it tough. I only hope the power of freedom will calm all their regional and religious biases.

[Bergalad]

99% of people in the Middle East could care less what we do in America as long as we stay out of their business, or at the very least, stop fucking them up the ass.
Certainly history has screwed with these people's lives. The lumping together of opposing ethnicities and religions is never a good idea (see Yugoslavia), but even if they were separate countries, they would still probably be fighting anyway. The main issue with why they don't "like" us is religion. Boil all the imposed borders and puppet governments out and you will get Islam as the overriding force behind this hostility. I've read the Koran, and I suggest anyone interested in this area take a look at what it actually espouses its followers to do. It really is a "convert-or-die" mandate, and these people (the majority of them) eat sleep and breathe Islam. It might sound like a simplistic arguement, but the root cause of the problem is religion-based. If you believe in the Old Testament, God states that the two lines from the two sons of Abraham (Jews/Christians and Muslims) would forever remain in conflict. Whether that's true or not, it is religion that will continue to fuel the issue. I have religious tolerance, but not for those religions that DEMAND the utter extermination of all other beliefs.
the solution to preventing terror is simple, dont support it. the united states is the leading terrorist state. there's your answer.
Glad you didn't make any outrageous comments without listing supporting facts. Not that there are any.
... but please don't sully my name by mentioning this guy.
I can't stand that guy either, and love it when people try to use him as some sort of great intellect that should be respected.

[TheMojoPin]

I still enjoy Chomsky at times. Unfortunately, like Michael Moore, he seemed to go insane after Bush was elected and 9/11 happened. He still writes decent, well-researched essays for Seven Stories Press, and his newest book, "Middle East Illusions" is shockingly lucid and well-thought out...but on a whole, I'm far more wary of him, because he seems far too willing to go on another useless, inane "Bush is the DEVIL!" rant at a moment's notice...

Speaking of Middle East books, I HIGHLY reccomend that you read Bernard Lewis' latest, "The Crisis of Islam", especially with the way this thread is headed. It addresses a lot of the issues that Berg brought up and how close to the truth he actually is...

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[HBox]

I've read the Koran, and I suggest anyone interested in this area take a look at what it actually espouses its followers to do.


You can't use a literal interpretation of the Koran to determine how their religion operates. Its really how the religous leaders and the people use it, which is where the problem of fundamentalism again pops up. If you used a literal interpretation of the Bible, you'd read some pretty fucked up things too. Yet most Christians are good people, while a very small few others blame 9/11 on feminists and rail against gay teletubbies and bomb abortion clinics.

The difference is that fundamentalism is more prevalent than extremist Christians, a problem that can be overcome if we stop treating the Middle East like a Gas station.

[TheMojoPin]

HBox is right, pretty much all of the ancient religious texts deal with "smiting" one's enemy and an "eye for an eye" and all that other peace 'n love junk...the difference is that far too many Muslim religion officials cater to that bullshit...sure, there are Christian nut jobs who thinks the bible tells them to hate Jews, gays, even people of other color, but they're obviously FAR in the minority of devout Christian leaders...Islam, on the other hand, has too many assholes who want to take that route, and they're the problem and THEY need to be stopped, ASAP.

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[Bergalad]

You can't use a literal interpretation of the Koran to determine how their religion operates.
I'm not saying WE use a literal interpretation, but most of the Middle East does. Sure the Bible has things which are extreme in it, but it doesn't really order it's followers to go out to kill those who are of differing religions. Islam is founded on the belief that Allah is the one and only god, and therefore his followers will always remain the mightiest and most powerful as long as they adhere to the teachings of the Koran. Well, here's the problem: Muslims are not the strongest people now, so who is to blame? It's either that they are not following Allah as the Koran dictates they should, or that Allah is not God. Now, which do you think Muslims would believe first? This is why there is a call to fundamentalism and strict adherence to the Koran in the Middle East today. Muslims of all walks of life are striving to return to their seat of dominance over the "infidels". I am not going to keep going on this, but this is what is driving everything. No other religion has this aspect to it, and that is why you see what is happening now.

[TheMojoPin]

It's all up to personal interpretation. And those that follow extremism are following the clerics and figureheads and figures that preach it instead of their own personal beliefs. If they choose to be sheep and buy in, fuck 'em. You always have a choice. Some obviously have chosen other paths...those that don't...well, they choose whatever they may bring upon themselves.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-16-03 @ 12:35 AM

[Bigden]

I agree everyone has a choice whether to follow extremism or not. I hate those rich Saudi's who had a fundraiser for suicide bombers. I can't F-ING believe that they think these people are doing something good. I refuse to believe that Islam is that corrupt- I also have read some of the Koran. I wonder whether a suicide Christian bomber detonating a device in a mosque during friday prayers would change their minds? Oh yeah we actually believe in the real God- the prince of peace.

[TheMojoPin]

Oh yeah we actually believe in the real God- the prince of peace.

Backing away...verrrrrry slowwwwwwwllly...

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[Bigden]

Did not mean to bring "That" in to this my bad.