President Bush lands on carrier and gives speech. Honest love of the military or PR move?

[Death Metal Moe]

I personally saw how President Bush was honestly happy in the crowd of sailors, and thought his speech was well written and delivered.

But I also understand that delivering a speech like this is also a political calculation and a priceless PR move for a man looking forward to 2004.

So what did you all think of this today? I cast my vote for Bush just being Bush. He loves the military and respects the great job they did, so he wanted to be with them as he delivered this important speech.

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[Bergalad]

It was both. But I can tell you that as a member of the military, we absolutely have confidence in Bush as CinC. I didn't detect any falseness from his speech tonight, and I do think he honestly is more connected to the members of the military than just about any past president. The amount of time he spent after the speech was over with the crew, shaking hands and talking, was extremely long. I remember when Clinton came to Germany in late '95 to give us his "I promise you will all be out of Bosnia in 6 months" speech. He spent a total of about 5 minutes (with Hillary no less) grasping some hands as he hurried to his limo. Oh yeah, and I was in Bosnia for 9 months and we are still there now. Anyway, Bush has become the leader no one though he could ever hope to be, and I am quite happy that he is leading us.

[JerryTaker]

It cut into wrestling. I watched the Yankee game instead...

Ironic, no?


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[Death Metal Moe]

Well put Bergalad. Why NOT take advantage of this little PR opportunity? He deserves it because he was the one who wanted to do it, and it was proven the right thing to do.

But his honest love for our Military is hard to miss. His genuine, honest attitude is what burns Libs more than anything. They spend all their time calculating their next move to shed themselves in the best political light. Bush just does the right thing, letting his morals and values guide him and looks good the easy way.

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[FiveB247]

Yeah it's a typical move...both PR and otherwise. But love of the military is an intereting way to put it considering it's fun to use them but he doesn't love them enough to join or fight? Not exactly love. It's more appreciative then anything.

[Death Metal Moe]

That's a retarded argument Five. What leader of a coutry joins the front lines? I'll save you the time, NO ONE. Leaders make strategies and descisions. They live with the possibility they are sending men and women to die for a greater good.

And he WAS in the military. He didn't dodge.

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[Steels]

But love of the military is an intereting way to put it considering it's fun to use them but he doesn't love them enough to join or fight?

?????........anyway..

The scene was reported to me via my radio (in the car) so I was not able to see the broadcast. I must admit the immediate thought that came to mind was this is a P.R move. I hope to see some of the coverage later on in the news.

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[JerryTaker]

His genuine, honest attitude is what burns Libs more than anything. They spend all their time calculating their next move to shed themselves in the best political light. Bush just does the right thing, letting his morals and values guide him and looks good the easy way.


That's it. I give up..... this is the height of delusion....

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[Death Metal Moe]

It's lonely at the top Jerry.

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[LiquidCourage]

I do think he honestly is more connected to the members of the military than just about any past president.



Uh, but he never served (full time anyway).

What about Eisenhower?
I'm sure he was WAY more connected to the miltary than Bush ever would be.

[El Mudo]

That's it. I give up..... this is the height of delusion....


What, because someone didn't agree with you?

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[DarkHippie]

And he WAS in the military. He didn't dodge.
No, he didn't dodge, he went awol in his last year. http://www.awolbush.com if you are comparing him to Clinton. Clinton didn't serve because he got a Rhodes scholarship to Oxford. would he have served, who knows, he was too busy being one of the finest students in the country.

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[FiveB247]

I never said he should be on the front lines with the troops. But for someone who has a "genuine and honest love" for the military; where was the love when he could have served and virtually avoided it? Sounds very delussional to me. Did he forget his own past? Selective memory maybe?

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[JerryTaker]

What, because someone didn't agree with you?


No, because it's just neive. Noboty's altruistic, especially not a politician. Everyone's just out for themselves and lining thier pockets. It's always been that way. All of a sudden our Republican President is Jesus Fucking Christ? Come on...



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[TheMojoPin]

I thought it was a decent speech and a cool little move...I mean, EVERYTHING a politician does is possible PR, so I really can't fault him with that...the millitary "focus" doesn't sway me, because the millitary and even this current war literally represents THIS (Yes THAT) much of his entire job...

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[LiquidCourage]

Clinton didn't serve because he got a Rhodes scholarship to Oxford.


Come on now Dark Hippie.
From the guy who said he "loathed the military"?

Don't get me wrong, Bush is about a half a klick away from being a draft dodger, but Clinton is a bum too.

[El Mudo]

because he got a Rhodes scholarship to Oxford


which he never finished...



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[Bergalad]

I never said he should be on the front lines with the troops. But for someone who has a "genuine and honest love" for the military: where was the love when he could have served and virtually avoided it? Sounds very delussional to me. Did he forget his own past? Selective memory maybe?
Hmm...alrighty. Now, Bush did serve, albeit not terribly well, in the Air National Guard, which is a part of the military. So he did serve some, to that there is no argument. And you Five are basing his inability to lead troops and be CinC on his limited military experience. Well, let's take a look then at those past presidents who NEVER SERVED A FUCKING DAY IN THE MILITARY, shall we?
John Adams
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
John Q. Adams
Martin Van Buren
John Tyler
James Polk
Franklin Pierce
Millard Fillmore
Grover Cleveland
William Taft
Woodrow Wilson
Warren Harding
Calvin Coolidge
Herbert Hoover
Franklin D. Roosevelt
William Clinton
Hmm. Very interesting list. It seems military experience isn't necessary to be a good president or CinC, at least according to some of the names on this list. Wanna try again Five?





This message was edited by Bergalad on 5-2-03 @ 12:45 AM

[Death Metal Moe]

Actually, I was trying to stay away from Clinton. I'm sick of this immoral fucker coming up in all political discussions. I have been guilty of bringing him up too, and I will endeavor to stop that.

I have seen that many of you on the Left didn't like him that much either, and he's out of office now. He's past.

I WILL bring him up if I feel he might have left us a mess thought. In a few ways, he left Bush some messes to clean up. In other ways he didn't.

I have heard this story about Bush going AWOL. I understand that many rich politicians get their kids stationed in easy jobs in the military so they have that on their record to enter politics with. No man is perfect. We vote for the person we feel will do the best job.

I vote for George W. Christ.

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[FiveB247]

Wanna try again Five?

Well considering you've already twisted my words around, Yes.

I never said he couldn't lead forces properly. This post is about President Bushes landing on a carrier...and if his intentions are for PR or his Honest love of the military.

For someone with a "half assed" military career (as someone put it), on a basic level (which he did)....how exactly does that qualify for "honest love of the military"? I merely am stating if he loved the military like some want to presume or believe he does....well how come he never really served in it? or pursued a career in it?

I played tee-ball when I was 6 for a brief period. I Honestly can say now, I love the Major League Baseball. Doesn't add up ...huh?

[Bergalad]

What, now you can't "love" something unless you are a part of it? What does that even mean? Does that mean you have to fuck your parents before you can love them? Of course Bush has incredible respect and admiration for the military. That's completely obvious to anyone watching that speech. You can't fight that, so instead you call into question his service record. This coming from you Five, the guy who has never has and never will serve his country a day in his life, has no true respect for the military, and thinks it's funny to take jizz shots at the American Flag. Yes, Bush loves the military, and that is yet another reason for you to dispise him. Even worse...we love him right back. Don't sit there and take shots at a guy's service record when he served more than most of our Founding Fathers.

[Death Metal Moe]

Does that mean you have to fuck your parents before you can love them?


BEST STATEMENT EVER! That should go under his name!

So that means I don't love my parents, but I love my buddy's Mom.

Hee hee hee ;)

And I do take offense to that as well. Just because military service wasn't in the cards for me, I can't truly appreciate the military? Sounds like someone just has a problem with the military.

I could never be an EMT, Police officer, Firefighter, Nurse, Surgeon and many other professions ALL in ONE lifetime, but I appreciate that these people are out there ready to help me and serve out community. So can I not do this because of the FiveB doctrine?

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[jocefus]

it was both a pr move and a love for the troops... usually presidents finish their speeches, salute and head right out..

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[DJEvelEd]

All incumbants use their office to help with reelection. They HAVE the podium and can save money on campaigning and press. Bush would be silly not to do stuff like this. It's a HUGE advantage. I dont care because I vote Libertarian but I think Bush will get his 8 years.

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[FiveB247]

What, now you can't "love" something unless you are a part of it? What does that even mean? Does that mean you have to fuck your parents before you can love them? Of course Bush has incredible respect and admiration for the military. That's completely obvious to anyone watching that speech. You can't fight that, so instead you call into question his service record. This coming from you Five, the guy who has never has and never will serve his country a day in his life, has no true respect for the military, and thinks it's funny to take jizz shots at the American Flag. Yes, Bush loves the military, and that is yet another reason for you to dispise him. Even worse...we love him right back. Don't sit there and take shots at a guy's service record when he served more than most of our Founding Fathers.

Are you an idiot? Read the title of this post. I highly doubt you can find an American President who didn't "honestly love the military" (as you want to define it). So when you're talking of 'love' it is either one of two things, appreciation for or love because you did it yourself. I merely stated due to his record and lack of service that it is obviously more appreciative than anything else.

On another note, I've never served nor do I plan to....but most citizens in the US are the same. Does this also go in line with your belief of grouping together anti-americanites with lack of utter support? Since when has devout support of the military/ soldiers equated to patriotism? Was this true when people were spitting at them coming home from Vietnam? Or protesting the war in Vietnam? Like anything else in life, I believe respect is an on-going process which should be gained due to actions....not just simple acceptance.

I have not once shown any disrespect of the military. I'm smart enough to realize they don't make decisions, government does...get it? And you are so readily to call upon my hatred of Bush? You over estimate many things, and that is one of them. It's just a simple way for you to try and justify yourself and blame me for something I may disagree with. It has a lot more to do with disagreement with policies then 'hatred' as you want to classify it.

So can I not do this because of the FiveB doctrine?

It wouldn't be true due to the fact that several of you have completely twisted my words. In my original post in this thread I said "it's more appreciative than anything". Is that not clear enough for some of you? Apparently not.

[mdr55]

Go BUSH GO!!!

[Captain Stubing]

As others have said, yes and yes. Bush exudes confidence and love of the military and, frankly, we love every fuckin minute of it.

Don't like that? Tough shit.....many of us have been serving long enough to remember how it felt under the last commander and chief. Call it yin and yang, night and day......frankly, you can call it whatever the hell you want to, just don't call while Bush is speaking because we'll be busy working our collective Hogs.

Bush rocks!

And, I hate to kick a guy when he's down, but for the record I'm anti the
FiveB doctrine



Fezaesthesia - Prognosis poor...

[FiveB247]

And, I hate to kick a guy when he's down, but for the record I'm anti the

Who's down? Certainly not me, this entire arguement against me is based upon twisting my words around and talking of things I didn't mention.


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[TheMojoPin]

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Wheeeeeeeeeee!!!

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[FiveB247]

Mojo...if that's a poke at me, I'd ask you to specifically point and note (in this thread) where I said things you are eluding too.

If this is not pointed at me, I apologize for misinterpreting your post.

[Cybersoldier]

It is both, but the republican party is going to use this with a question when the presidental election comes up

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[jocefus]

Mojo...if that's a poke at me, I'd ask you to specifically point and note (in this thread) where I said things you are eluding too.

If this is not pointed at me, I apologize for misinterpreting your post.



you need to relax a little bit five...not everyone is out to get you... smoke a blunt, have a beer or do whatever it is you do to wind down...seems like your too paranoid.. have u spent time in a viatnamese prison??

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[FiveB247]

I'm always chilled out. But I respond if someone takes a jab at me. I merely asked if it was in my direction or not. No harm, no foul...right?

[TheMojoPin]

"I am FiveB's raging sense of paranoia..."

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-2-03 @ 12:11 PM

[FiveB247]

Haha....funny. :)

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[A.J.]

It's definitely both.

It was cool to see the CINC in a flight suit -- he looks like a Squadron Commander. It's a great image.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20030502/mdf268190.jpg

Conversely, I always remember THIS image from Clinton (notice the binoculars):

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/folder/dumb_at_the_dmz.Par.0007.ImageFile.jpg

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This message was edited by AJinDC on 5-2-03 @ 1:51 PM

[TheMojoPin]

Oh AJ. For shame...of all the people to be sucked in by some awful, awful glurge...

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And yet...life goes on...

http://www.snopes.com/photos/binoculars.asp

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-2-03 @ 6:48 PM

[A.J.]

Oh AJ. For shame...of all the people to be sucked in by some awful, awful glurge...


It made me laugh though.

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[Se7en]

But for someone who has a "genuine and honest love" for the military: where was the love when he could have served and virtually avoided it? Sounds very delussional to me.

Now you're just being pissy.

One can absolutely have a love for something - specifically, an organization - WITHOUT ever being a part of it, even if one has the option to do so. And that can be honest and sincere LOVE, more than just an appreciation.

Personally, I just think the whole been in the military / not been in the military thing is fucking ridiculous. WHO CARES. If they served, great, thanks. If they didn't, it makes no difference to me. I never understand why people harped on Clinton so much. Yeah, maybe it points towards cowardice on his part, and perhaps a little disdain for the armed forces, but frankly there were only about 45 billion other, valid reasons to not vote for him other than his military record or lack thereof.

Whoever said that this was both PR and love is most likely correct.

EDIT to include this:

Oh, wow. The guy made a mistake. Big deal. Two seconds later...

Visit this Website

*WHEW!* The free world can breathe easy again!

The funny thing is, Clinton's photo bears the telltale blurring of shitty digital manipulation...

Visit this Website

And yet...life goes on...

Visit this Website

It disturbs me that you actually took the time and effort to research in order to refute someone's dumb joke.

You need to get out more. Let's get together and go see an O's game or something.

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---George Orwell

This message was edited by Se7en on 5-2-03 @ 3:12 PM

[TheMojoPin]

It disturbs me that you actually took the time and effort to research in order to refute someone's dumb joke.

Why? It took less then two minutes to do, since it all came from one site where I specifically remembered reading about this very joke...

Worry about yourself, Cochise. And the O's are evil. Cubs fan since day #1.

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[Bergalad]

anti-americanites
Astounding.

I rewatched some of the footage from yesterday's speech and was even more impressed with Bush's poise and demeanor. The most telling thing to me about how he and the military feel about eachother came before he even started to speak, when the crowd broke out in spontaneous applause. For his part, it looked like Bush was getting teary. His actions and words are those of a man who understands the gravity of what he has asked of these men and women, and what he continues to ask of them. He sent them out at great risk to their lives, and I could see in his face that he was overjoyed to see them return. His aides certainly looked at this event as PR for later, but I honestly think that Bush couldn't have cared less about the PR impact as he stood there with his troops.




This message was edited by Bergalad on 5-2-03 @ 7:43 PM

[DarkHippie]

I noticed that why he said that the war was virtually over, he didn't officially end the war.

Significant? very. If he had officially ended it, according to international law, he would have had to release all prisoners of war. So the question is, when will he release the POWs? Surely you must all agree that holding POWs after a war is over is not the way to conduct war under any circumstances.


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[FiveB247]

All I keep hearing is that he loves the military. What f'n President doesn't or hasn't? And I'm not reffering to budgeting or something.....we're talking strictly feelings and showing of approval. There is no valid point in saying he loves the military...as the President of the US it is his job to do so. Making any more of it is silly and absurd.

[mikeyboy]

And the O's are evil.


This is the only point I'll jump in on. The O's are not evil. Peter Angelos is evil. The O's just suck. Being over .500 at the beginning of May is just a tease for the faithful.

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[Def Dave in SC]

Martin Van Buren


That son of a goddamn bitch. How dare you mention that non-serving, blue blooded pussy in this thread. He never served a day, and I will never forget.


Seriously, this whole "he never served, he cant possibly 'love' the troops" thing is rediculous.

I've never had my very own set of ovaries, yet somehow i still love women.

But anyway, i think Bush was truly in his element last night. While it had to have a lot of PR involved, i truly believe that he wanted to be there because it was his chance to overnight on a nuclear carrier and to get his very own flight suit.


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[Se7en]

Why? It took less then two minutes to do, since it all came from one site where I specifically remembered reading about this very joke...

It's two minutes of your life you'll never get back man!

Worry about yourself, Cochise. And the O's are evil. Cubs fan since day #1.


I actually hate baseball, I just figured it'd be something to do. It's not as if we could go watch the Caps in the playoffs, those lousy bastards....

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"We have become too civilised to grasp the obvious. For the truth is very simple. To survive you often have to fight, and to fight you have to dirty yourself. War is evil, and it is often the lesser evil."
---George Orwell

[TheMojoPin]

It's not as if we could go watch the Caps in the playoffs, those lousy bastards....

But I don't LIKE crying, man...

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[FiveB247]

i think Bush was truly in his element last night. While it had to have a lot of PR involved, i truly believe that he wanted to be there because it was his chance to overnight on a nuclear carrier and to get his very own flight suit.

It's very simple; The same occurs in the President's speeches to Congress. They all clap and applaud for long periods (especially those of the same party).

The lack of military involvement by Bush is a mere mention and passing item. Any President giving a speech to the troops is in "his environment".

If you can name me one President who didn't "love the military" along the ways you want to define it....it's absurd and silly to promote Bush in this scenario. He is appreciative of their commitment, duty and action. That's it...everything else is PR. See you next election day....

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[Bergalad]

The lack of military involvement by Bush is a mere mention and passing item.

A mere mention? Let's count the different posts:
...he doesn't love them enough to join or fight?
...where was the love when he could have served and virtually avoided it?
For someone with a "half assed" military career...well how come he never really served in it? or pursued a career in it?
due to his record and lack of service

The lack of military involvement by Bush...
That's five seperate posts in which you wail about his purported "lack of service". His serving even one day is more than you would ever do, and seeing as he didn't have to serve at all, you don't have a valid reason to be complaining about his service record. At least he fucking served. You are trying to spin what you said and change what this thread was asking. Was it PR or does he have a great personal love for the military, that's the question. You are going off on some tangent about how every president "loves" the military, and that isn't accurate or relevant to this thread. Bush has a deep personal admiration, respect, and love for the military he leads, and it shows. But of course you can't say one positive word about Bush, oh no, that would kill you. Instead you cower and lash out at his service record and say that it's his job to love the military. Typical liberal bullshit. Maybe if Bush said "I have not had sexual relations with the military" you would believe him? I am sure you believed the last president who said something like that.

[DarkHippie]

seeing as he didn't have to serve at all, you don't have a valid reason to be complaining about his service record.
But he did have to serve. It was either join the National Guard and fight the VC in Texas, or get drafted and fight the VC in the jungle, like my father (who was very against the war, yet still did his duty). It's not like Bush was a conscienscous observer; he simply didn't want to fight and die.

Remember, he couldn't even stay in the National Guard without deserting (link in previous post). the fact that this deserter is now commander in chief is an insult to all americans, especially those not rich enough to get a pass into the National Guard, and out of danger.

(and yes, i know many of you will question whether I would put my life on the line. Those that know me, also know that I have. if I believe in something, I will fight for it. President Bush has shown otherwise, unless its other people's lives. When it came time to show his mettle, he took the easy way out. At least Clinton believed in a cause other than his own hide.)

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[TheMojoPin]

At least Clinton believed in a cause other than his own hide.

"Oh, YEAH, now THERE'S a fine-lookin' cause, mmmmm...her hide's not bad, either..."

<img src=http://www.unansweredquestions.net/timeline/people/clinton.jpg>

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[FiveB247]

Bergalad....I did mention it several times...but I also mentioned the same number of times how it was more appreciation then love.

You keep saying I'm knocking him.....you are doing the complete opposite. Giving credit where no credit is deserved. Name me a President who doesn't "love the militiary" (as you wish to define it). You can't. So simply saying Bush is great for this is silly.

It's comparative to Chris Rock's jokes about how ignorant people want credit for shit they are supposed to do. "I take care of my kids", "I ain't been in jail", etc...

The President of the US is supposed to "love" and support the military. It's his job to. Stop trying to make it more then it is.

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[The Jays]

Surely you must all agree that holding POWs after a war is over is not the way to conduct war under any circumstances.



Yes, I agree.

We are still at war. Thus, we can hold onto POWs.

We are moving on to another phase of the war.

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[DarkHippie]

We are moving on to another phase of the war.
what phase is that? Bush is really playing semantics here.

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[TheMojoPin]

Yes, I agree.

We are still at war. Thus, we can hold onto POWs.

We are moving on to another phase of the war.

Was this ever a "real" war, or just a fake one like Vietnam? I know I can't keep track myself, so who the fuck is actually making sure the "rules" are in effect?

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[The Jays]

what phase is that? Bush is really playing semantics here.



The phase where we make Iraq compliant with the terms of our original ceasefire, and where we finish off any remaining threats to the world, the region, and the Iraqi people.

How is he playing semantics?

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[The Jays]

Was this ever a "real" war, or just a fake one like Vietnam?



Vietnam was a police action. Iraq was a continuation of the 1991 conflict.

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[Ken193]

http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0315/news-anderson.php

http://www.suntimes.com/output/otherviews/cst-edt-schak13.html

A few examples of Bush's actions betraying his words. The articles mention the presidential tradition of slashing budgets for veterans. Clinton was the only president out of the last four presidents who increased benefits for veterans.

[FiveB247]

The phase where we make Iraq compliant with the terms of our original ceasefire, and where we finish off any remaining threats to the world, the region, and the Iraqi people.

How is he playing semantics?

There are phases in war. The phase you are talking about is still way off. You can't set up a nation without stability and proper policing. Some are still fighting in small groups (grenade attacks, etc). It is also becoming more apparent via rallies and demostrations taking place in Iraq that many want the US out already (some of which is also anti-american thought).

Also, your mention of removing remaining threats to the world and the region? That is the war on terrorism, not "operation Iraqi freedom" which includes the rebuilding of Iraq.

And Bush is playing semantics. He wants to call the war a victory, yet he has not officially said it is over. The official ending of the war makes the US liable to release POW's as well as setting up proper policing, government and the rebuilding of Iraq would officially begin. For now, it's a way of playing both sides of the issue.

[The Jays]

Also, your mention of removing remaining threats to the world and the region? That is the war on terrorism, not "operation Iraqi freedom" which includes the rebuilding of Iraq.


1) Operation Iraqi Freedom was to remove the threat of Saddam's regime from the world and from its people.
2) The war in Iraq was part of the war on terrorism. The administration made it quite clear that it was.

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[TheMojoPin]

2) The war in Iraq was part of the war on terrorism. The administration made it quite clear that it was.

Yeah, but that's only a "war" in terms of sounding cool and badass. NOBODY knows what's going on anymore! WE'RE DOOMED!

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2% << December boys got it BAD. >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[FiveB247]

1) Operation Iraqi Freedom was to remove the threat of Saddam's regime from the world and from its people.
2) The war in Iraq was part of the war on terrorism. The administration made it quite clear that it was.

It's always enjoyable to see an idea like 'the war on terrorism' or 'Operation Iraqi freedom' or similar "wars" become all encompassing, broad ranged notions which go outside of the realm of issues that directly relate to the issue at hand.

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[HBox]

You just know when this country decides to make a real effort towards world peace, it's gonna be called the "War on War."

[FiveB247]

It's what many call "Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace".

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[DarkHippie]

1) Operation Iraqi Freedom was to remove the threat of Saddam's regime from the world and from its people.

Yes and saddam's regime is no more.
2) The war in Iraq was part of the war on terrorism. The administration made it quite clear that it was.
if this is the case, then the Bush administration will never have to release the POWs. Ever. As long as there is terrorism, those soliders will stay locked up.

A never-ending war where all prisoners are locked away for life. Lovely.

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[TheMojoPin]

God, if only that War On Drugs hadn't been so effective! I could really use some fucking marijuana right now!

http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/images/war.093.gif

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[TheMojoPin]

Yes and saddam's regime is no more.

Well, it's FAR from being that cut and dry. Iraq is in a VERY unstable position politically, and re-introducing Saddam's cronies back into the population to try and grab what power they can probably isn't the best of ideas...

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[HBox]

Why can't this country do anything without waging a war, either figuratively speaking or literally.

[DarkHippie]

Well, it's FAR from being that cut and dry. Iraq is in a VERY unstable position politically, and re-introducing Saddam's cronies back into the population to try and grab what power they can probably isn't the best of ideas...
true, but we're not talking about his cronies here, we're talking about foot soliders. Hearing rumors about how we've been keeping prisoners down in "super secret Cuba Land" i'd like to know whether these POWs are goning to be released, or whether they will be classified as potential terrorists and locked away.

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[TheMojoPin]

At this point, over 95% of the prisoners at "Camp X-Ray" are still Al-Queda (And other similar or linked terrorist organizations operatives). Supposedly a few high-ranking Iraqi officers have arrived, but that's about it...the "foot soldiers" are still being held either in Iraq or Kuwait...

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2% << December boys got it BAD. >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[high fly]

Let's just face it, Dumbya just likes locking people up

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Death Metal Moe]

Now I'm sorry I started this thread. Like you libs need to corrupt another thread with your wrong ideas and skewed views.

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[TheMojoPin]

I don't know, Moe may be on to something...have you seen how Bush has taken to dressing around the White House after the carrier trip? Se-e-e-exy...

AND he grew a fag moustache to appease us liberals! Yo JOE!!!

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2% << December boys got it BAD. >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Bergalad]

I agree Moe. It's too bad no one on the left side wants to answer your proposed question and only want to slam Bush. It's all "he avoided service" or "any president loves the military" and none of that is what was being asked. The left can't give even a little and say that Bush is enamored with the military. How that is so hard for them I don't know. Saying that Bush has affection for the military equal to all the past presidents is uninformed misinformation given out by those who can't see beyond their petty gripes and issues.

[travis151]

I feel that President Bush did the right thing and it was a Great PR move to land on the carrier by jet. No Bush might not be the best speaker but he is a leader and stands for what he believes in. The military loves him rightfully so.

Red Sox=More Better

[FiveB247]

Moe, Bergalad...I orginally mentioned how I think it was more apprecitive then love. I feel it is a wrong choice of words to describe this action in the manner you did.

If you want me to choose between Love or PR...I'd say PR.

http://www.waste.uk.com/gfx/bear.gif

[Se7en]

AND he grew a fag moustache to appease us liberals! Yo JOE!!!

What you need to do now is post a pic of Roadblock as Colin Powell!

<img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/captainamerica.jpg" width="300" height="100">

"By the laws of this very government - whether they want to accept it or not - every American is complicit in the darkness that this country spreads across the rest of the world - simply by paying taxes." -- Inali Redpath
"That's terrorist double-talk and I, for one, am SICK of listening to it." -- Captain America

"We have become too civilised to grasp the obvious. For the truth is very simple. To survive you often have to fight, and to fight you have to dirty yourself. War is evil, and it is often the lesser evil."
---George Orwell

[TheMojoPin]

It's too bad no one on the left side wants to answer your proposed question

I thought it was a decent speech and a cool little move...I mean, EVERYTHING a politician does is possible PR, so I really can't fault him with that...the millitary "focus" doesn't sway me, because the millitary and even this current war literally represents THIS (Yes THAT) much of his entire job...

Uh, I did.

And it sure does seem like Bush is a big fan of the fighting man. Out of curiosity, WHY should I give a fuck?

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[Death Metal Moe]

Why should you give a fuck? Gee, I have no idea Mojo.

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[TheMojoPin]

What you need to do now is post a pic of Roadblock as Colin Powell!

Dude, Colin IS totally Stalker...he's too smooth to be wasting his time rhymin' when he could be getting the job done.

<img src=http://www.starwars-rpg.net/swfa/jmm/joe/stalker0.gif>

Again, why won't he run for prez? Is it really just because he doesn't want his wife's mental health history in the public light? Because that just makes me like him even more...

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[TheMojoPin]

Why should you give a fuck? Gee, I have no idea Mojo.

Seriously, neither do I. Maybe Bush really likes Spam...so what? What's it supposed to mean to me? If he likes the millitary, wow, great. I don't doubt that he does...where's the big issue?

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[Se7en]

I can see Powell as Prez - or at least vice Prez - material for Repubs in 2008.

And good call, you're right - he's totally Stalker! :)

Does that make Ashcroft Dr. Mindbender?

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"By the laws of this very government - whether they want to accept it or not - every American is complicit in the darkness that this country spreads across the rest of the world - simply by paying taxes." -- Inali Redpath
"That's terrorist double-talk and I, for one, am SICK of listening to it." -- Captain America

"We have become too civilised to grasp the obvious. For the truth is very simple. To survive you often have to fight, and to fight you have to dirty yourself. War is evil, and it is often the lesser evil."
---George Orwell

[TheMojoPin]

Does that make Ashcroft Dr. Mindbender?

Nah, he's definitely Destro.

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2% << December boys got it BAD. >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Bergalad]

Saw this today and according to the site it has been confirmed as true http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/bushsalute.htm. Does Bush love the military? Here's one reason to believe it:
Reporter Donna McGuire of the Kansas City star has interviewed the Birdwells and wrote an extensive article about it. It was published on December 9, 2001.
According to the article, Birdwell was so badly injured and in so much pain that he looked forward to surgeries because he knew he would be unconscious.
After spending a few moments in Birdwell's room, President Bush turned and initiated a salute to Birdwell. Normally, a salute to the president is initiated by a junior officer and is held until the president drops his salute.
McGuire wrote, "Stopping at the foot of Birdwell's bed, the president snapped to attention and saluted...Birdwell
struggled to lift his severely burned arm and hand to his forehead, and he didn't have the strength to hold it long." The president's arm stayed still.
"He held his salute," recalled Birdwell, "out of respect for me."

[FiveB247]

Berg...This is how you're going to justify your position? Gee, the President saluted an injured solider...so he obviously loves the military.

http://www.waste.uk.com/gfx/bear.gif

[TheMojoPin]

Five, seriously, what's your deal? It sounds like Bush really respects and admires the guys in millitary...the question isn't whether or not he does MORE than anyone else, or how much he does, just whether he does or not. Looks like he does. Why the hell has this crawled up your ass?

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-8-03 @ 3:27 AM

[Death Metal Moe]

It crawled up there to be with it's friends.

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[Bergalad]

Gee, the President saluted an injured solider
I will explain this to you as if you were a complete retard, alright? See, how it usually works, the soldier would salute the president first and await the president to complete his return salute before dropping his own salute. With me so far? In this instance, the president saluted the soldier FIRST, which would place the president in a subservient position. Got that? What it means is the president had such respect for this injured soldier that he took on the role of the subordinate and saluted the soldier first. That is a fucking huge thing to anyone in the military and shows an unbelievable amount of respect by the president for a soldier. Hope you got that now.

[furie]

http://home.millsaps.edu/~mcelvrs/Dukakis_tank.jpg

here's a guy who hated the military. still got the PR shot though. It's all a game and no one should be surprised or upset about it.

<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/surfer2.jpg" width=300 height=100>

This message was edited by furie on 5-8-03 @ 10:44 AM

[FiveB247]

You can call it love, respect, etc.. I call it the US president acting and being the US president (whether Bush or anyone else).

http://www.silly2.com/funny_pictures_1/FearlessLeader.jpg

http://www.waste.uk.com/gfx/bear.gif

This message was edited by FiveB247 on 5-8-03 @ 12:33 PM

[DarkHippie]

I don't think the issue is whether Bush respects the military, because its obvious that he does. the issue is whether that makes someone a suitable Commander in Chief.
(i have plenty of respect for the military, my father and both by grandfathers were all fighting men, but how many of you would want me deciding foriegn policy?)

too much love of the military isn't a good thing. remember, the military is a tool, its supposed to be for a specific purpose (defense). If you use it to much, the other tools in your chest rust away.

edit: fiveb, please change the width of that pic to 300. Its killing me.

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This message was edited by DarkHippie on 5-8-03 @ 12:20 PM

[Se7en]

too much love of the military isn't a good thing. remember, the military is a tool, its supposed to be for a specific purpose (defense). If you use it to much, the other tools in your chest rust away.

Wow.

I never fail to be surprised by the anti-Bush crowd. The criticism now has swung from complaining that Bush DOESN'T love the military, to complaining that he loves them TOO much.

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Cap sez: The mods are all Nazi fascist cocksuckers drunk with power. Does THAT fit inside 3 lines, asshole?

[TooCute]

I never fail to be surprised by the anti-Bush crowd. The criticism now has swung from complaining that Bush DOESN'T love the military, to complaining that he loves them TOO much.


I'm trying to understand this comment. I'm trying. But I don't get it. Where were the complaints?
And I thought we were past labels. Oh well.

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[TheMojoPin]

I never fail to be surprised by the anti-Bush crowd. The criticism now has swung from complaining that Bush DOESN'T love the military, to complaining that he loves them TOO much.

Wait a minute, since when was Dark Hippie a "crowd"?

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[Bergalad]

I understand what you are saying Se7en. This thread started with SOME (no labels Too Cute) saying it was all PR and the president didn't care about the military any more than any past president did. Now we see a post where Bush loves them too much and how dangerous that could be. It's humorous.
As for Bush as CinC, I don't think there is any way to complain there really. He has led the country through two conflicts already and had great success. The members of the military are behind him immeasurably more then they were with...well you know who...and I feel he has the utmost respect for them as well. Just loving the military is certainly not enough to be a good CinC, but Bush has proven (to me) from 911 on that he (much to my surprise actually) has what it takes to be a great leader with vision and conviction.
*edit*
About this carrier landing, I heard on one of the talking head shows that a bunch of Democrats landed on the Lincoln as well after Bush had left, like 6 of them. Anyone hear this as well? If this is the case, the Dems have to explain why it's bad for Bush to do it but alright for them to.



This message was edited by Bergalad on 5-8-03 @ 2:22 PM

[TheMojoPin]

If this is the case, the Dems have to explain why it's bad for Bush to do it but alright for them to.

Why? Am I blind, or did I miss the throngs of "Dems" saying how awful it was that Bush apparently REALLY likes "Top Gun"?

You had a bunch of people here saying whether or not it was a "honest" move or more of a PR trick. One of these people offers his opinion from a different angle, and suddenly everyone is "changing their minds?" Dude, like the drop says, "HANDLE YOUR SPIN!"

Why do Berg and FiveB seem to enjoy so much making up fights that don't even exist in the first place? Not the same person my ASS...

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-8-03 @ 3:06 PM

[Bergalad]

Mojo, what are you talking about? If the Dems are condemning Bush for going out to the carrier, then why aren't they yelling about the 6 or so Dems (according to the report I heard) who went out there as well? I'm not spinning anything, just asking if anyone else heard that report. Focus, please.

As far as Five and I being the same, how insane. I am actually out in Seattle right now, so if it's that important to clear my name with you, I will give you a call. I am bored with fighting him, but I won't sit by while I get called out.

[HBox]

If the Dems are condemning Bush for going out to the carrier


They aren't.

[A.J.]

If the Dems are condemning Bush for going out to the carrier

They aren't.

Citing Fleischer's revised explanation, Rep. Henry A. Waxman (D-Calif.) wrote to the General Accounting Office to ask for a "full accounting" of the cost of the trip.


After Fleischer's remarks, Sen. Robert C. Byrd (D-W.Va.) delivered an impassioned speech on the Senate floor, saying he was "deeply troubled" by Bush's actions, which he called "flamboyant showmanship." The octogenarian lawmaker criticized the White House for using the carrier "as an advertising backdrop" and the military "as stage props" for Bush's speech.

"To me, it is an affront to the Americans killed or injured in Iraq for the president to exploit the trappings of war for the momentary spectacle of a speech," Byrd said. "I do not begrudge his salute to America's warriors aboard the carrier Lincoln . . . but I do question the motives of a deskbound president who assumes the garb of a warrior for the purposes of a speech."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22502-2003May6.html

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A Skidmark production.

[HBox]

So two Democrats speak for the whole party?

[A.J.]

So two Democrats speak for the whole party?

No. I was citing the examples of Democratic "condemnation" that I've seen in the news.

Of course when one happens to be the Ranking Member of a committee and the other is the Dean of the Senate, their comments tend to carry a little more weight.

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A Skidmark production.

[HBox]

They do, and you always have to expect some members of an opposing party to criticize just about anything the opposing party does. But there hasn't been widespread criticism from the Democrats. In other words, it's not the party line.

[TheMojoPin]

Mojo, what are you talking about? If the Dems are condemning Bush for going out to the carrier, then why aren't they yelling about the 6 or so Dems (according to the report I heard) who went out there as well? I'm not spinning anything, just asking if anyone else heard that report. Focus, please.

I AM focused. Why do the words of a handful of Democrats count more (And for more people) than, say, the words and actions of a handful of Democrats who fly out in a millitary plane to an aircraft carrier? I doubt ALL Republicans everywhere thought Bush doing the same was a good idea. As much as we joke, these AREN'T one-minded herds that ALL think or act the same way. This is the first I've heard of a few Democrats criticizing the Prez for his carrier trip or a group of Democrats flying out ot the aircraft carrier themselves. And yet, NEITHER group speaks fully for the entire goddamn party. AND, it reflects even LESS on Hippie's comments, because he's a registered Green!

And if you're going to get all hot and bothered over the You/FiveB issue, don't bother. You'd be wasting everyone's time. If you're going to take a pretty bad joke on a message board so seriously, it might be time to just sit back and relax for a few...

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-8-03 @ 5:11 PM

[Bergalad]

I'm not sure what we're arguing about anymore, so I'll stop now. Oh, and your joke doesn't bother me. Joking with you back. Enjoy your day.

[curtoid]

The facts, as they are coming out, are a little disturbing:

* The White House said they had to take a plane instead of a helecopter out there because it was too far out, which was not true.

* The ship was 30 miles off-shore, not 200+ miles; a helecopter would have been fine.

* Land could actually be seen from the ship, but they made (!) the ship turn so that the camera angles would not show land (!!!)

* The stunt prevented the ship from docking by 20 hours.

* Estimated cost: around $800,000 tax dollars.

Priceless!

THIS is why those two Democrats are riled up.

[KOP]

[TheMojoPin]

I'm not sure what we're arguing about anymore, so I'll stop now. Oh, and your joke doesn't bother me. Joking with you back. Enjoy your day.

Exactly. I think. Fuck it, I'm even more lost. But dude, come on, it's hard to tell when you're joking or not. You're like the most serious person here. If you weren't FiveB, I was convinced you were the first of the Terminators, and your metal claws were going to crush my head like it was a ripe, squishy baby.

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[TheMojoPin]

The facts, as they are coming out, are a little disturbing

No they're not.

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[Bergalad]

and your metal claws were going to crush my head like it was a ripe, squishy baby.

What an interesting word picture you have created there. I don't know if I should be aroused or disgusted or maybe both. I think I take things less seriously than many others on here (case in point the Tax thread), but whatever. This board could use a little more humor it's true.

[Death Metal Moe]

I heard on the news that Clinton did almost the exact same thing during his term, it just wasn't as big a deal because it wasn't at the end of an overly successful war and Clinton didn't like the military.

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[curtoid]

"No they're not."

Whew! Glad you settled THAT! First you cleared up "Oli has nothing to do with the war," and then this.

THANK YOU!

Glad there's someone on here who can think for me.

[KOP]

[Bergalad]

KOP, where have you been? I was starting to miss you!

[TheMojoPin]

Glad there's someone on here who can think for me.

Oh, no, don't worry, I was only thinking for myself. As eager as you were to declare these facts as "disturbing" to everyone who could read them, I didn't find them to be that at all. Sorry to burst your alarmist little bubble there, tiger.

"Flying the president out to an aircraft carrier cost MONEY!!! Be scared and AMAZED!!! EEEEK!!"

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[DarkHippie]

I never fail to be surprised by the anti-Bush crowd. The criticism now has swung from complaining that Bush DOESN'T love the military, to complaining that he loves them TOO much.
I don't know, i thought my statement was well thought out and persuasive. I have never stated that Bush didn't love the military (thank you for putting words in my mouth). I HAVE questioned his ability to lead, due to his desertion of the National Guard, And that he over uses our forces to the detrement of the country, but that doesn't mean he doesn't love the military.

unless, you were trying to intentionally misinterpret me in order to take away my argument, in which case, good job!

<IMG SRC=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/darkhippie2.gif>
<marquee>"And there are times when you are walking/ and looking and seeing/ everything in a brand new light/ Like trees with three trunks wrapped around each other tight/ Like her legs 'round my body in the middle of the night" --"Colleen's Song", <a href=http://www.Osvaldooyolaortega.com>Osvaldo Oyola Ortega</a>
</marquee>
<i>LABELS ARE FOR PRODUCTS, NOT PEOPLE! DON'T HUG A TREE, PLANT ONE!
</i><a href=http://www.freeopendiary.com/entrylist.asp?authorcode=A537085>Gonads and Strife: a journal</a>

[A.J.]

"Flying the president out to an aircraft carrier cost MONEY!!! Be scared and AMAZED!!! EEEEK!!"

You'll be shocked to learn that Marine One and Air Force One cost money too.

<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/ajdcsig.jpg">

A Skidmark production.

[TheMojoPin]

You'll be shocked to learn that Marine One and Air Force One cost money too.


"NO!"

"You don't say!"

"I can't believe it!"

"That bitch be crazy!"

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[FiveB247]

Mojo...Bergalad's not smart enough to post the things I do..haha That should be proof enough. :)

Bergalad...just kidding.....










...maybe :)

http://www.waste.uk.com/gfx/bear.gif

[Death Metal Moe]

Well, things wouldn't cost money in your Communist utopia, right Mojo? We'd just trade and barter for plane feul and other things.






Oh...........:)

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[TheMojoPin]

Fuck communist utopia, that's friggin' "Star Trek". The blood of the fallen will NOT be proud if we turn into a nation of dorks.

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[Bergalad]

Bergalad's not smart enough to post the things I do
Yup, you got me there. I would go on, but according to your previous intelligent postings, I have a flag to go jerk off into, right? Nice.

[FiveB247]

I think it's pretty obvious when I bust balls, make jokes or go out of my way to say something absurd to piss you off. It's in jest. For many of your posts...you can't really say the same.

http://www.waste.uk.com/gfx/bear.gif

[TheMojoPin]

Wow...it's like watching a rerun of "The Patty Duke Show"...

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2% << December boys got it BAD. >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Bergalad]

Ugh. Let's save this all for our counselor, ok Five? Sheesh.

[The Jays]

... oh sweet fucking christ, this thread is still going on?

<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> Fuck what you heard.</font>
<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> That cab has a dent in it.</font> [center]
[center]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/morecoolestgroup/files/house.gif

[Death Metal Moe]

I also saw on FOX News that 4 west coast Dems flew out to the carrier for a similar event after Bush had left.

So it's hard to say who did it for love of country or for publicity. But this fucking ex-clansman Bird or Byrd( not sure how to spell it ) is demanding to see the documentation of how much Bush's trip to the Lincoln cost.

Go burn a cross white trash.

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[A.J.]

I also saw on FOX News that 4 west coast Dems flew out to the carrier for a similar event after Bush had left.

I believe it was Senators Murray and Cantwell (D-WA) and Washington Governor Gary Locke who went aboard Lincoln after she homeported near Whidbey Island.

But this fucking ex-clansman Bird or Byrd( not sure how to spell it ) is demanding to see the documentation of how much Bush's trip to the Lincoln cost.

Byrd complained but Henry Waxman who is the Ranking Minority Member of the House Government Affairs Committee is asking GAO to do a full accounting of the trip.

http://www.house.gov/reform/min/pdfs/pdf_inves/pdf_admin_president_uss_lincoln_let.pdf

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_050803/content/rush_is_right_2.Par.0001.ImageFile.jpg

Bill Clinton aboard USS Theodore Roosevelt March, 1993

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[Death Metal Moe]

That's right AJ, thanks. Waxman was the guy who started
this, or was at least the most vocal.

Wax THIS!

Oh man, I just got him so good!


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[A.J.]

The GAO is NOT going to investigate after all:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&ncid=536&e=3&u=/ap/20030514/ap_on_go_co/gao_bush_flight

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A Skidmark production.

[TheMojoPin]

"Now let's have a hand for the REAL comptroller!"

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[Death Metal Moe]

DAMNIT! I got a 6 page post and NO ONE put ANY stars on it? This was a good thread!

The FIX is on!

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[Bigden]

It was standard operating procedure for an ex-pilot Commander in Chief. I think it is pretty sad when the Dem's put an ex-klansman out to represent the party. I thought Byrd was dead, or did they re-animate him in some secret laboratory somewhere? He is famous for reading from history books during fillabusters- what a retard. I guess the smart ones are staying away from such a stupid argument. I mean the king of pork talking about a little plane trip. This is the same person who through pork barrelling tied on millions if not billions to bills for West Virginia. I bet they have the best damn roads in all of the U.S. thanks to that old man. The only flaw in our legislative system is that people like him take advantage of it.

[HBox]

It was standard operating procedure for an ex-pilot Commander in Chief.


Yeah, we see President's in F-15's all the time.

As for being an ex-pilot, he might have qualified for that had he not been AWOL for 2 years.

[Death Metal Moe]

Everytime a Lib says AWOL, I will rebutt with Draft Dodger.

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[curtoid]

Clinton being a "Draft Dodger" is an opinion - Bush being "AWOL" is fact, but hey - why get mired down with facts when spouting GOP rhetoric is so much easier.

Speaking of draft dodgers, let's ask Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Joe Lieberman, John Ashcroft, Bill O'Reilly, Jeb Bush, Newt Gingrich, Phil Gramm, Roger Ailes, or Karl Rove what exactly they were during while those evil anti-American lefty Liberals, Gore and Kerry, were in Vietnam.

[KOP]

[A.J.]

Speaking of draft dodgers, let's ask Dick Cheney....Jeb Bush...Newt Gingrich...


Cheney probably would have been 4-F because of his heart. I think he was married as well.

Gingrich was 4-F, I believe, because of poor eyesight.

Jeb Bush was 18 in 1971 and probably got a college deferment.

I'm not sure about the rest.

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A Skidmark production.

[TheMojoPin]

Am I the only one that doesn't give a flying patooty if a president has served in the millitary or not?

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[FMJeff]

I say both. He didn't have to land in a jet plane. He could've taken an airplane. He didn't have to wear a uniform. He is not a soldier. Then again, it is not uncommon for a president to address his military aboard a military transport. I have no problem that he gave the speech. I do have a problem with all the posturing.

Then again, if I was president, I wouldn't mind landing on an aircraft carrier in a jet plane, so maybe he just saw it as an opportunity to do something cool.

Who knows? In the end, it doesn't really matter.

Bush tries so hard, and got so far...one thing, he doesn't know why, it doesn't really matter how hard he tries...he keeps that in mind in time and explain in due time...all he knows...ahh fuck it..

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.</center>

[curtoid]

So, the right gets "probably...", "I believe,..." "probably..."while anyone on the left isn't give a benefit of a doubt and painted as a flag burning anti-Patriot?

Fair and balanced.

[KOP]

[high fly]

Every time a Lib says AWOL I will rebutt [sic] with Draft Dodger

There's a teensy bit o' difference there, Moe:
If the charges of desertion in time of war [ being AWOL more than 30 days]are true, Dumbya would face the possibility of the death penalty.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[mdr55]

4 more years. Go Bush Go!