Maybe liberation wasn't such a hot idea

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/77813p-71645c.html

For the first time in three decades, Iraq's Shiites were free to mark their holiest festival - free to crawl on bleeding knees, to whip themselves raw and to cut their own heads open with swords.

With Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein no longer able to torment them, millions of Shiite Muslims flooding into the holy city of Karbala eagerly tormented themselves in a remarkable explosion of long pent-up religious fervor.



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thank you dcpete!

I'm a big wheel down at the cracker factory.

[A.J.]

That's not the "self-abuse" I was thinking of.

Anyway, I posted this in another thread but it's relevant here too:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/23/international/worldspecial/23IRAN.html?ex=1051675200&en=6b52d3c2bcd59f24&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

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A Skidmark production.

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[FiveB247]

WW3 is almost upon us....yippy.

[furie]

With Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein no longer able to torment them


...they decided to torment themselves.
isn't freedom grand?

<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/surfer2.jpg" width=300 height=100>

[TheMojoPin]

Saddam banned them from slicing their own heads open and beating themselves in the heat of worship? THAT BASTARD!!!

Eh, what are you gonna do? It's just been one giant clusterfuck from the beginning until now, and I'm just sitting back and watching the whole thing and weeping tears of blood. It's easiest that way.

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2% << December boys got it BAD. >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[FiveB247]

Like George Carlin says, "When you're born, you are given a ticket to the circus. Sit back and enjoy the show".

[TooCute]

Hold on... you think liberating them wasn't a good idea because you dispprove of what individuals are doing to themselves in their freedom? Yay.

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[FiveB247]

Hold on... you think liberating them wasn't a good idea because you dispprove of what individuals are doing to themselves in their freedom? Yay.

Don't you know that freedom, choice, and ideals all have to be in the American interest and perspective in order to be considered successful.

[canofsoup15]

WW3 is almost upon us....yippy.


That would require the entire worlds participation...whats south america doing, or even europe, they aint fighting in the war. Besides i dont even consider this a war, its more of an "ass-whomping" sponsored by America.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/canofsoup15/images/final.gif>

Shit, if it's going to be that kind of a party
I'm gonna stick my dick in the mashed potatoes

[FiveB247]

That would require the entire worlds participation...whats south america doing, or even europe, they aint fighting in the war. Besides i dont even consider this a war, its more of an "ass-whomping" sponsored by America.

Well it could spur conflicts all over the world into more serious depths of war. Israel and Palestine, Iran, Syria, North Korea, Pakistan and India, etc..

You don't consider this a war? Does there have to be massive casualties on our side in order for it to be classified as such? That's ridiculous.

[Bestinshow]

Don't you know that freedom, choice, and ideals all have to be in the American interest and perspective in order to be considered successful.

You seem to be confused. The freedom is in the Shiites interest and perspective and you are the one saying it is not sucessful. It is not fulfilling your ideals. who are you to decide that this is wrong for them? I guess you want to tell them how to practice their religion. They do what they want, that is Americas perspective? You want to fix there perspective and that is their interest? I guess I am confused.

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[canofsoup15]

You don't consider this a war? Does there have to be massive casualties on our side in order for it to be classified as such? That's ridiculous.


Its a war, I was just saying that its not much of a war considering they arent and cant fight back because they are running or surrendering, casualities has nothing to do with it. Besides, im a moron, take what i say for a grain of salt because i say some pretty stupid crap without thinking about it.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/canofsoup15/images/final.gif>

Shit, if it's going to be that kind of a party
I'm gonna stick my dick in the mashed potatoes

[East Side Dave]

Maybe liberation wasn't such a hot idea


No.




........But Disco is! Let's boogie, sister!

<img src=http://www.richstillwell.com/ESD.gif>
Big Ass Mafia

[FiveB247]

You seem to be confused. The freedom is in the Shiites interest and perspective and you are the one saying it is not sucessful. It is not fulfilling your ideals. who are you to decide that this is wrong for them? I guess you want to tell them how to practice their religion. They do what they want, that is Americas perspective? You want to fix there perspective and that is their interest? I guess I am confused.

I was being facetious when I made my comment. Geez..chill out bro.

Ps..Canofsoup sorry if I jumped at you or your post...I just found your comment a bit odd...so I posted you back.

[JerryTaker]

LIBERATED? Is that what our good, god-fearing soldiers fought for? So these Iraqis could become stinkin' lazy pinko commie liberateds?!?!? God damn it! This is the thanks we get? Next they'll be going to college and having art exhibits!

:-)



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[travis151]

UH... Its only been a couple of weeks. Do you really think Iraq could just become a democracy in this short of a time? First you must create order in this country. Then slowly teach what needs to be done. These people need time to heal I don't blame them for not thinking that the U.S. might want to take over. Once the U.S. starts to educate these societies hopefully the Iraqi people will understand. Who ever said rebuilding this country was going to be easy?

Red Sox=More Better

[TooCute]

UH... Its only been a couple of weeks. Do you really think Iraq could just become a democracy in this short of a time? First you must create order in this country. Then slowly teach what needs to be done. These people need time to heal I don't blame them for not thinking that the U.S. might want to take over. Once the U.S. starts to educate these societies hopefully the Iraqi people will understand. Who ever said rebuilding this country was going to be easy?

Can you relate this to self-flagellation, please?

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[FiveB247]

Democracy has about a good a shot of sticking in Iraq as us turning Bin Laden into a Catholic preacher. All the lack of planning upon the US's behalf for post-war Iraq is beginning to show. The US rushed through diplomacy and international consent before this war and have overlooked and over-estimated the needs and capabilities it will take to create an Iraq for the future. Iraq is in mayhem now with no order whatsoever...but we did get the oil pumping again...ahead of time. So that's good right? ughh

[Bestinshow]

I was being facetious when I made my comment. Geez..chill out bro.

Sorry, I am so used to debating you on the board I couldn`t help myself. When I go home, as soon as I see the number 5 I start arguing.

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[ChrisTheCop]

Bestinshow has been around long enough now, I was surprised to see him not get the joke...anywho...I read a similar article in the daily news yesterday, and after they celebrated in the afore-mentioned way and said we're so happy we can do this now cuz Sadaam was an evil tyrant who wouldnt let us practice our religion, yada yada...they later got together and chanted death to America. Ahh, the classics.

<img src="http://www.azfop.com/graphics/us-flag1.gif">

[travis151]

Basically Five your saying that the Iraqi people are dumb animals who aren't smart enough to capture a thing called democracy. How do you know that the Iraqi rebuilding plan isn't going as planned? Are you in the meetings or something. Its a shame how no matter what our government has done you continue to bash it. First it was how the war isn't justified and how thousands of civilians would die. Now it the U.S. doesn't know whats it doing. Its going to fail blah,blah,blah. Seriously in your brain, now take a minute to think here answer this question since you think that the U.S. is doing a bad job, " Do you feel that the Iraqi people were better off with Saddam in charge" answer yes or no, then explain why?

Red Sox=More Better

[Yerdaddy]

LIBERATED? Is that what our good, god-fearing soldiers fought for? So these Iraqis could become stinkin' lazy pinko commie liberateds?!?!? God damn it! This is the thanks we get? Next they'll be going to college and having art exhibits!
The plan is that Iraq is going to be the Libera for liberals.

FREE YERBOOBIES!

[high fly]

Right on, Five. Democracy will be covertly opposed by surrounding dictatorships and anyone else who doesn't like the U.S.. Those who support democracy will be accused of being American stooges.
Right now the Sunnis are marginalized, Turkey will move in if the Kurds get uppity, and the well organized Shias are moving quickly to take over, sort of forming a West Iran.
Good times.
The mullas are whipping up anti U.S. sentiment, demanding we be out in a few months, while Richard Lugar is predicting we'll need to be there 5 years.
I'm sticking to my prediction of a California- sized West Bank.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[FiveB247]

Basically Five your saying that the Iraqi people are dumb animals who aren't smart enough to capture a thing called democracy. How do you know that the Iraqi rebuilding plan isn't going as planned? Are you in the meetings or something. Its a shame how no matter what our government has done you continue to bash it. First it was how the war isn't justified and how thousands of civilians would die. Now it the U.S. doesn't know whats it doing. Its going to fail blah,blah,blah. Seriously in your brain, now take a minute to think here answer this question since you think that the U.S. is doing a bad job, " Do you feel that the Iraqi people were better off with Saddam in charge" answer yes or no, then explain why?

The US has attempted in the past to "bring democracy" to several countries..and it never has stuck. It is not a matter of being dumb or animals (that's a ponderous assumption). That is a generic and ridiculous modern version of the white man's burden. It's far from true.

Of course the Iraqi people are better off without Saddam...but is that to say the US is going around removing all injustices of the world? Removing each dictator at a time? That's hardly the truth and no where near it. You all see me as a "basher of the US"...I talk of all nations the same. Whether human rights, economy, foreign policy or social injustices. I believe the US is the most influential and could make many strides and guidelines which would help others elsewhere as well as here in our own nation. You just all take it to heart cause you see things in mostly an American perspective...where I look at things broadly and through an international perspective.

[Bergalad]

You just all take it to heart cause you see things in mostly an American perspective...where I look at things broadly and through an international perspective.

I don't know why I am bothering with this, but whatever. Five, if America is the best country on this planet (to which even you mostly asserted in your post), then why would it be so terrible if we wanted other nations to do things like we do? Don't start with "what if other nations thought the same way..." stuff. We are the most powerful, we are the most emulated. You want us to become more placid, less than what we are. Yes I view things as an American- that's what I am. I don't think most of us are blind to the rest of the world and what the US does there, but have a little pride in your country, can you? If you are the Superbowl Champions, are you looking to make yourself more like the other teams? Hell no, they are doing everything they can to be like you and get to your level. Of course geopolitics is more complicated than football, but the basics are the same, so make no mistake; we are playing a deadly serious game. The US is here to be #1, and frankly I support just about any action that keeps us in that position. Anything less puts us in an untenable state, leaving us open to the whims of those countries who I am confident would be less magnanimous to us than America is to them.

[FiveB247]

I don't know why I am bothering with this, but whatever. Five, if America is the best country on this planet (to which even you mostly asserted in your post), then why would it be so terrible if we wanted other nations to do things like we do? Don't start with "what if other nations thought the same way..." stuff. We are the most powerful, we are the most emulated. You want us to become more placid, less than what we are. Yes I view things as an American- that's what I am. I don't think most of us are blind to the rest of the world and what the US does there, but have a little pride in your country, can you? If you are the Superbowl Champions, are you looking to make yourself more like the other teams? Hell no, they are doing everything they can to be like you and get to your level. Of course geopolitics is more complicated than football, but the basics are the same, so make no mistake: we are playing a deadly serious game. The US is here to be #1, and frankly I support just about any action that keeps us in that position. Anything less puts us in an untenable state, leaving us open to the whims of those countries who I am confident would be less magnanimous to us than America is to them.

I do believe we have the best country in the world. That much is obvious. But I believe we should be trying to make things better for those in our nation as well as elsewhere. And not at anyone else's cost. I believe any goal we achieve should benefit those here now and those we want to make a future for. People in this country want everything for nothing and they want it immediately (no matter at what costs or to whom). Whether it be politics, economy, foreign affairs, etc...everything is geared for the immediate time being...which is fine...to a point. There's never any planning towards the future. That's why things like our education system stink, social security will collapse before any of us every see a dollar from it, deficit's are dealt with til they are enormous and terrorism has existed and un-dealt with until it had to. The only thing this country does Pro-active is War. Everything else is re-active.

Each day that passes with time, history paints a story. History is merely a timeline of on-goings...but the things we do day to day do influence the future. With government, business, the environment and such in the status they're in...do you not recognize the future we are leaving or passing to our future generations? It doesn't hold good for the 20th Century from where it started and where it has gone. The 21st is going in the same chaotic cycle but worse. Everyone is always talking of the Constitution, founding fathers, etc. They are all special cause they sacrificed themselves as well as their own livelihood in order to build this country and create its future. Can you say the same nowadays in reference to anything even remotely close? The answer is a clear NO.

[Bergalad]

I have faith and confidence in my fellow citizens that, as we have countless times before, we will meet and overcome any future problems. I don't know what's going to happen to me 10 minutes from now, so I am not going to get overly wrapped up in protecting the future I can't see. Planning ahead is great, but it's just a plan. Right now we have these issues, let's deal with them now and if things arise later, we'll deal with them as well. We can't sacrifice our position today for some pie-in-the-sky Utopia you imagine for the future. This isn't Star Trek; we're never all going to play nice together, so just accept it as part of humanity. These attitudes you have are the ones England and France had a hundred years ago...and look who's the top dog today. America is great in part because of how it's people feel, act, and think as a whole. How you get off criticizing us is beyond me; the results speak for itself.

[FiveB247]

I have faith and confidence in my fellow citizens that, as we have countless times before, we will meet and overcome any future problems. I don't know what's going to happen to me 10 minutes from now, so I am not going to get overly wrapped up in protecting the future I can't see. Planning ahead is great, but it's just a plan. Right now we have these issues, let's deal with them now and if things arise later, we'll deal with them as well. We can't sacrifice our position today for some pie-in-the-sky Utopia you imagine for the future. This isn't Star Trek: we're never all going to play nice together, so just accept it as part of humanity. These attitudes you have are the ones England and France had a hundred years ago...and look who's the top dog today. America is great in part because of how it's people feel, act, and think as a whole. How you get off criticizing us is beyond me: the results speak for itself.

Obviously, the world won't be a pie in the sky...but you can try to make it so. And of course you can't tell what the future holds....but actions of today do correlate to tomorrow and the future. A serious issue the US is attempting to deal with now and will in the future will be WMD (nukes). The policies during the Cold War of out spend your opposition has led to massive stockpiles of weaponry. Now that the USSR has fallen....the weaponry is spread amongst many smaller (some unstable) nations and regions. Many of the nukes we don't even know where they are or who holds them. So I ask you this...Was this not something we could have avoided in order to prevent massive, destructive weaponry to becoming virtually capable and available to opposition and possible hostile people against us? You can't predict the future...but everything has consequences...both long term and short term. And many if not most of the times, we choose short term and ignore the long term effects of our actions. (whether it's tax refund checks, social security, deficit, foreign policy or war).

[Bergalad]

So I ask you this...Was this not something we could have avoided in order to prevent massive, destructive weaponry to becoming virtually capable and available to opposition and possible hostile people against us?
I don't want to argue this out, but I have to say that I find it perplexing and somewhat shocking (even for you) that you would say we were better off facing the USSR instead of what we have now in Eastern Europe. You are sounding like Dean who is saying that Iraq was better off with Saddam in power. I know you are pissed that Bush won this war, but didn't think anyone could be upset that Reagan won the Cold War. You've impressed me, and I have been following your postings for quite some time. Congratulations; you are now officially Ultra-Left Wing. Cheers.

Oh, and if you do decide to argue this out, please don't copy my entire post to yours. I think everyone can figure out who you are talking to.

[travis151]

Five you say, "nobody sacrifices themselves as well as their own livelihood in order to build this country and create its future". What the hell do you call 300,000 U.S. service men and women doing in the Gulf now? They are their to Protect our future, so we can continue to build and create. Don't get started on education and social reform. I say we should only help people who want to help themselves.Do you know what stopped me from going to Harvard or Yale ? ME!!! My laziness stopped me. Education is indeed not equal but that doesn't stop somebody if they truly want to learn. Before this country can continue to grow as strong as before we have to start pointing the fingers at ourselves first.

Red Sox=More Better

[TheMojoPin]

but didn't think anyone could be upset that Reagan won the Cold War

Ultra left-wing, meet ultra right-wing...you and FiveB are such an old married couple at this point. It's adorable.

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2% << December boys got it BAD. >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[FiveB247]

I don't want to argue this out, but I have to say that I find it perplexing and somewhat shocking (even for you) that you would say we were better off facing the USSR instead of what we have now in Eastern Europe. You are sounding like Dean who is saying that Iraq was better off with Saddam in power. I know you are pissed that Bush won this war, but didn't think anyone could be upset that Reagan won the Cold War. You've impressed me, and I have been following your postings for quite some time. Congratulations: you are now officially Ultra-Left Wing. Cheers.

Oh, and if you do decide to argue this out, please don't copy my entire post to yours. I think everyone can figure out who you are talking to.

Bergalad...First off...I'll post how I please.
Nice job of twisting my words buddy. Cause I really said that Iraq would be better off with Saddam? Or I said that we'd be better off fighting the USSR then the smaller, more in number nations? I simply stated the US's policy of weapon advancement and buildup as an example of how the short term goal was somewhat justified but the long term achievement is extremely dangerous. I seem recall the armament buildup after WWI having a great influence and cause of WWII. Now that the Cold War is over...we are fighting the leftover, broken down rogues which hold weaponry we helped attain, grow and achieve through the 'outspend your opposition' philosophy.

And stop making me out to be some Marxist who hates Bush. I would question and argue any person in office doing the same policies and actions.

Five you say, "nobody sacrifices themselves as well as their own livelihood in order to build this country and create its future". What the hell do you call 300,000 U.S. service men and women doing in the Gulf now? They are their to Protect our future, so we can continue to build and create. Don't get started on education and social reform. I say we should only help people who want to help themselves.Do you know what stopped me from going to Harvard or Yale ? ME!!! My laziness stopped me. Education is indeed not equal but that doesn't stop somebody if they truly want to learn. Before this country can continue to grow as strong as before we have to start pointing the fingers at ourselves first.

Soldiers defend this country, not build it and certainly not create its future (if anything..to some extent, they help accompany its future). All the soldiers are defenders of our nation....but not a one of them are here...they are all elsewhere fighting. Don't forget that. Bases in foreign nations do not constitute our nation....50 States do.

Also they did not protect our nation in Iraq...they freed Iraq from their dictator. Iraq is not a direct and immediate threat to US soil or people. Also, if you believe in the 'help yourself theory', we wouldn't be invading in the first place. It would be up to the Iraqi people to free themselves.

Your mention of Education and learning is exactly the type of thinking I referred to in previous posts (white man's burden). You're virtually saying they all need to learn our ways, beliefs and values in order to live a civil, good life. American democracy and beliefs aren't welcomed in Iraq....and it doesn't make the people ignorant, uncivil or unjust. They hold different beliefs and values from us. It all comes down to philosophy.

This message was edited by FiveB247 on 4-25-03 @ 10:06 PM

[TheMojoPin]

Out of curiosty...of all the people who accuse "liberals" of opposing Bush simply because of who and what he is, how many of them are simply supporting Bush exactly because of who and what he is? How is one blinders-on way of thinking better than the other? They're both just as ignorant...

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2% << December boys got it BAD. >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[travis151]

The Iraqi people couldn't help themselves first because they had AK-47's pionted at their heads. The reason we have our soldiers in different countries is so we don't have to defend our country on our own soil. Its simple if you don't fight back thoughs who oppose you beliefs and ideas they will find ways to attack you. Do you honestly believe that if the U.S. states didn't fight back after 9/11 that there wouldn't be another terroist attack against us? You say Iraq wasn't a threat? The country harbored terroists!!! Wait maybe you think terroists just like to hang out and listen to music maybe jam alittle. So don't say Iraq wasn't a threat don't live in a fanasty world. People will always oppose the American way, because we a free. Just as Our country helped defeat and win the Cold War we have to start another to keep our people free. I know that may sound like a war-monger but we have to fight back." Appeasers are the last to be attacked " Winston Churchill said that.

Red Sox=More Better

[Bergalad]

ultra right-wing
Right-wing, yes. Ultra, no.
you and FiveB are such an old married couple at this point. It's adorable.
Don't think so. Believe me, when I get old, I want someone intelligent to talk to.
Cause I really said that Iraq would be better off with Saddam?
No, I said:
You are sounding like Dean who is saying that Iraq was better off with Saddam in power.
Notice the difference?
Or I said that we'd be better off fighting the USSR then the smaller, more in number nations?
You said about the fall of Russia:
Was this not something we could have avoided...
Yeah, basically you did say we would be better off with the USSR back.
I seem recall the armament buildup after WWI having a great influence and cause of WWII.
Nope. And we have become a much smaller military in every way since the end of the Cold War, so it's all moot anyway.
we are fighting the leftover, broken down rogues which hold weaponry we helped attain, grow and achieve through the 'outspend your opposition' philosophy.

Who are you talking about here? How did we help North Korea get nukes through an "outspend" philosophy? Or Iraq for that matter? If we were in an arms race with them as we were with the USSR, then I could see that, but it's not the case. And I am sure you can't be talking about former Soviet Republics, since most of those are clamoring to get into NATO. Not a very good point you have there.
And stop making me out to be some Marxist who hates Bush.
Um, when have I ever called you a Marxist? Never. But a hit dog will bark they say. But you absolutely hate Bush; that's a fact.



This message was edited by Bergalad on 4-26-03 @ 12:00 PM

[TheMojoPin]

Do you honestly believe that if the U.S. states didn't fight back after 9/11 that there wouldn't be another terroist attack against us? You say Iraq wasn't a threat? The country harbored terroists!!! Wait maybe you think terroists just like to hang out and listen to music maybe jam alittle. So don't say Iraq wasn't a threat don't live in a fanasty world.

Wow. I'm suprised you didn't fit Nazis or commies in there somewhere.

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[Drudge Jr.]

edit: nm

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thanks to the ghost of jim morrison for making my sig






This message was edited by Drudge Jr. on 4-27-03 @ 12:19 AM

[shamus mcfitzy]

If you are the Superbowl Champions, are you looking to make yourself more like the other teams? Hell no, they are doing everything they can to be like you and get to your level. Of course geopolitics is more complicated than football, but the basics are the same, so make no mistake: we are playing a deadly serious game. The US is here to be #1, and frankly I support just about any action that keeps us in that position.


I just think it's pretty sad that the US needs to be #1 in your mind Berg. As far as i know the US has allies, and i would think that we wouldn't stress that we need to be better than our allies. The game of politics isn't like a football season, where all that's important is who wins in the end. That's what fuels an imperialistic mindset. The Us could certaintly do a lot to be like the other "teams" because the US IS NOT THE BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. That's an honest belief of mine. When a country is constantly threatened by terrorism, i don't see it as the best country in the world. Maybe you consider that we can invade anyone we want whenever we want as being the one factor in making a country good, but eventually the US will lose all of it's allies that way. Sure we'll always have a Venezuela (random example) that will hold onto our coattails because we can provide them with political power, but eventually the EU will realize we're usurping any power they have.

and i don't think the lack of South American presence means that this struggle can't be a World War. I'm pretty sure South America has as much a role in the war (mere empty support) as they did during WWI and WWII. Whatever.........

[FiveB247]

Believe me, when I get old, I want someone intelligent to talk to.

Must you lash out against those you disagree with? Just like our nation and culture, you act like aggression and ill-will towards others is justified somehow. Grow up.

Who are you talking about here? How did we help North Korea get nukes through an "outspend" philosophy? Or Iraq for that matter? If we were in an arms race with them as we were with the USSR, then I could see that, but it's not the case. And I am sure you can't be talking about former Soviet Republics, since most of those are clamoring to get into NATO. Not a very good point you have there.

The US in its war against the USSR helped directly and indirectly to arm the world. I never argued that we'd be better off with the USSR. I argued that our policy of 'outspending the opponent' and growth of arms (you know the one that can blow up the entire World like 10 times) were all methods and policies used in order to gain victory of the USSR. My argument is the fact of if these policies were seriously considered for their future repercussions. Obviously they weren't considered if the outcomes of what would happen to such armaments and weapons or even who's hands they could land in if the USSR collapsed (which was the US's objective).

But you absolutely hate Bush: that's a fact.

This war is just a little part of why I don't like Bush...I've hated him since he was using the death penalty like it was going out of style.

Stop trying to capsulate my beliefs and thoughts by generically throwing them into "he hates Bush" or "you hate the US". It's simple minded and not the case in such a cut a dry fashion as you would care to see it as.

[Bergalad]

I just think it's pretty sad that the US needs to be #1 in your mind Berg...The game of politics isn't like a football season, where all that's important is who wins in the end...the US IS NOT THE BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. That's an honest belief of mine.
Well well well. Very nice. So what is the best country to you? What's with your South America fetish? Venezuela has political power...where? This is gonna shock you, but politics IS about who wins in the end. It's about power and who has it. There is no second place in politics. This is kindergarden-level stuff, so not to sound too dismissive, but you should really do some reasearch before issuing challenges. Your view of the world as one big playgroup where we have crackers and nappy time is fanciful, but not practical.

[Bergalad]

Must you lash out against those you disagree with? Just like our nation and culture, you act like aggression and ill-will towards others is justified somehow. Grow up.

It was sarcasm Five; a joke. Calm down. We can still play. But don't sit there in the same post as that one and call me simple-minded. Kinda deadens your attempt at a point, don't you think?
I argued that our policy of 'outspending the opponent' and growth of arms...were all methods and policies used in order to gain victory of the USSR. My argument is the fact of if these policies were seriously considered for their future repercussions. Obviously they weren't considered if the outcomes of what would happen to such armaments and weapons or even who's hands they could land in if the USSR collapsed...
We are without a doubt much much much much safer today than we were when we faced the Warsaw Pact. Terrorism aside, we are not being threatened with global war from another Superpower like we were for 50 years before. We are not being threatened by any of the countries who hold ex-Soviet nuclear weapons. In fact, many of those countries are trying to get into NATO. No threat there. We are safer now than having the USSR back.
Stop trying to capsulate my beliefs and thoughts by generically throwing them into "he hates Bush"
What?? You claimed before:
stop making me out to be some Marxist who hates Bush.
I said in response that you do hate Bush, and you agreed. I'm not encapsulating anything; I made an observation which you proved to be correct. And since you "hate" him, it's no shock to anyone why you constantly deride and ridicule the actions of the US. I mean, you have over 1200 posts, could at least one of them been in support of anything the US has done? Just a question.
*Edit*
On the subject of nuclear proliferation (which this thread isn't about but you want to make it so) of ex-Soviet warheads, here's an exerpt from the New York Times yesterday:
After months at the table with Russia and the United States, the Ukrainians let their 1,900 warheads go to Russia for destruction.

Safer.

This message was edited by Bergalad on 4-27-03 @ 3:37 PM

[FiveB247]

I wasn't arguing the US is safer now with the USSR collapsing. I said that the US's policies of enhancement of weaponry and their oppositions have caused many unstable nations, areas and groups to now hold such items. I simply ask, was the growth of armaments and stockpiles of weaponry (this particular action and policy) worth the long term effects of attempting to try and regain and destroy all these weapons? You mention some 1,900 missles being destroyed. I don't have exact numbers now, but I'd think that'd be a drop in the pan compared to how many are still active, available and more dangerously unknown of their where-abouts. I simply question the policies which have short term goals, but aren't thought of for the long term. This is just one of them.

[high fly]

USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! !

" and they ask me why I drink"

[FiveB247]

When did Hacksaw Jim Dugan get here?