Religion = Ignorance? Or... ? Well, you tell me.

[FollowThisLogic]

Okay, I was having a small debate with a friend in an IM, and though I won't share that IM here (it wasn't a board member anyway), I will get the point across....

It all started with stuff about the upcoming Mars missions. She wonders why so much money needs to be spent on NASA, thinks space exploration is pointless. After first arguing that NASA's budget is pocket change compared to, say, DOD... I said that space exploration also helps us understand more about ourselves, how we were made and such.

She says, "oh, right, cause you're into the whole 'there's no god' thing."

Now maybe it's just me, but I get pissed off when someone tries to contradict 400 years of good, proven science with a 2000-5000-year-old manner of thinking, created by a bunch of people who simply didn't have the knowledge to be able to explain their world - so they merely assumed that some higher being had to be the cause of it all.

It HAD to be mystical, because there was no other way to explain it.

Now here we are, the year 2003, and we're able to explain a lot of things with scientific facts. Little things like, oh, the theory of evolution, geology, astronomy.... y'know, all those things that people had basically NO clue about a few millennia ago.

By the way - if anyone tries to use the argument that "evolution is a theory, not a fact", I suggest you go do some research about what the word "theory" means in a scientific or mathematical context. What you think "theory" means, in science, is called a "hypothesis".

Anyway.... as far as we've come.... isn't religion kind of outdated? To flat out DENY the things that science has discovered in the fields of evolution, geology, astronomy (which my friend has done).... isn't that just IGNORANT?

Or, her other argument.... that religion is "hope" for everlasting life........ what more is that than a simpe fear of death? The fear that when you die, you're dead, that's it, you're done..... you WANT to believe there's something after life because you FEAR that there isn't.......

I'm sure there are religious people here, and not-so-religious people too..... so I'm curious to see what you guys think about all this.

Sorry for the long post, but I'm hoping to spark a little thought...

<center><b><img src="http://followthislogic.50megs.com/rf-screw.jpg" alt="Just say 'Screw all ya'll.' Trust me. It'll work."></b><br><marquee direction=up scrollamount=1 height=14><center>all that i have<br><br>all that i hold<br><br>all that.. is wrong<br><br><br>all that i feel for or trust in or love<br><br>all that.. is gone<br><br><br><br><br></center><br><br><br><br></marquee></center>

[Gvac]

Religion will never be outdated because mankind will never have ALL the answers. Many people find a great comfort and sense of guidance through religion, and in that sense there is absolutely nothing wrong with it at all.

I'm not a religious person by any stretch, but it angers me when others mock those who are devout followers of a faith. It's a kind of elitism that makes me wonder what makes the naysayers so sure they're right?

Obviously, fanatacism has its dangers as we all have seen, but it does not make religion in and of itself "bad". It's the use and misuse of things that make them "bad".

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[AngelAmy]

oh come on FTL, what about all that scientific proof of god creating earth in 7 days!?!?? its all right there in front of your face.

evolution is just crazy, no evidence.






wait, what?

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[FollowThisLogic]

I don't think religion is wrong, simply misused.

If religion was simply used as a guideline by which people judge right and wrong, determine the difference between leading a good life, being a good person versus being an evil one..... I'm all for that.

Sure, we may never know everything.

But the stuff we do know, the things that are FACTS..... isn't it ignorant to shrug it off and say "nope, science is wrong, it was god"?

Using religion as a basis for how YOU live, that's fine..... but if you're still trying to explain things that we've learned a better explanation for...... it's a little hard to swallow.

<center><b><img src="http://followthislogic.50megs.com/rf-screw.jpg" alt="Just say 'Screw all ya'll.' Trust me. It'll work."></b><br><marquee direction=up scrollamount=1 height=14><center>all that i have<br><br>all that i hold<br><br>all that.. is wrong<br><br><br>all that i feel for or trust in or love<br><br>all that.. is gone<br><br><br><br><br></center><br><br><br><br></marquee></center>

[Immigration Dude]

Now maybe it's just me, but I get pissed off when someone tries to contradict 400 years of good, proven science with a 2000-5000-year-old manner of thinking, created by a bunch of people who simply didn't have the knowledge to be able to explain their world - so they merely assumed that some higher being had to be the cause of it all.



400 years ago people thought the earth was flat.... Thats still true, right?

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[grlNIN]

FTL...youve been watching WAAAAAAAAAY too much Penn and Teller

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</center>

[AngelAmy]

400 years ago people thought the earth was flat.... Thats still true, right?


well obviously no since it has been PROVEN otherwise

<center>You can speak your mind but not on my time.
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[TheMojoPin]

The Bible is the best comic book...EVER. Stan Lee wishes he was as awesome as John, Paul, Luke and Ringo.

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[FollowThisLogic]

400 years ago people thought the earth was flat....
Actually it was the Columbus voyage that shattered that one, for the most part.... in 1492.

FTL...youve been watching WAAAAAAAAAY too much Penn and Teller
Quiet you! They said a lot of shit I would say anyway! :)



<center><b><img src="http://followthislogic.50megs.com/rf-screw.jpg" alt="Just say 'Screw all ya'll.' Trust me. It'll work."></b><br><marquee direction=up scrollamount=1 height=14><center>all that i have<br><br>all that i hold<br><br>all that.. is wrong<br><br><br>all that i feel for or trust in or love<br><br>all that.. is gone<br><br><br><br><br></center><br><br><br><br></marquee></center>

[Heather 8]

Wait... I thought Foley was God, and FTL is good. :)


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[center]

[FollowThisLogic]

Woo hoo!!

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Man, it feels good to blow the dust off that one.

Hey Peachy.... catch me on AIM if you get a chance.

<center><b><img src="http://followthislogic.50megs.com/rf-screw.jpg" alt="Just say 'Screw all ya'll.' Trust me. It'll work."></b><br><marquee direction=up scrollamount=1 height=14><center>all that i have<br><br>all that i hold<br><br>all that.. is wrong<br><br><br>all that i feel for or trust in or love<br><br>all that.. is gone<br><br><br><br><br></center><br><br><br><br></marquee></center>

[Wormwood]

When did Science PROVE that there is no God? I've sat through a ton of science classes at University and not once did they say that science has proved there is no God.

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Honor your Allegiances

[Death Metal Moe]

Real men love Jesus.


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[DarkHippie]

I think that humankind's search for Sprituality is very important. in fact it is one of the most important things we can do.

the ability to think in this manner-- to wonder "what is out there" and where did the universe come from" is some of the higher thinking that makes us human. if we don't use this, if we don't questioning, stop wondering, and just hold onto to a static belief like "god is up there in heaven with a big long beard" or "there is no god and when we die we turn to dust" we let our brains atrophy-- we lose part of what makes us so special.



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[fatty]

it's hard to follow gvac cause he pretty much summed up what i wanted to say. but to add a little...

i don't know what i believe in these days although i grew up catholic. and as my rational mind tries to convince me there is no use for religion or that it has no factual information to back it up, there's still part of me that believes.

i'm not sure in what exactly, but the life is just an amazing thing. we can figure out how life is created, and how we got to where we are, but there is still no explanation on why it happened, or what happens when life is over.

it's hard to believe that if you were travelling in space that eventually you would come up to a wall that said "dead end" you may find something hard, like a chicken sees the egg from the inside, but if you broke through you would open up to a whole new universe. (this last part is inspired from stephen king in the book the dark tower)

all of this makes it hard for me to believe that in all of this entire universe we are the only shitheads on this tiny planet earth. i think there has to be other life out there, and what that life could be is beyond my comprehension.

so with that all said, for people to believe in somethign more than what science tells us makes sense to me. when people use it as an excuse to kill one another i get pretty pissed, but some of us use it because there are no other alternatives for now.

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[TheMojoPin]

Real men love EVIL.

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[FiveB247]

I was always one to belief that spirituality is good. Organized religion is shady due to all the implications and means they cling to. Many people look to religion in times of questioning life, harsh times and other un-answered questions. I personally think you can't cling to one extreme or the other. I don't see how some people can ignore science and evolution....but on the other hand...you never know what is out there in the beyond. It's all completely unknown and I think anyone who deems one side absolutely correct over the other is silly. If people knew definate answers for lifes unknown questions...there would be one religion of belief, or one scientific answer for lifes questions...and neither exist or will ever.

I like to try and lead a good life and be a good person. And if there's an afterlife...hopefully i'll be good enough to be there (heaven's side..hehe). When I die...I'll try and come back and post and let everyone know what the deal is. :)

[Dewey]

It never ceases to astonish me how so many otherwise intelligent and "scientifically minded" people fail to apply scientific principles to the great questions (Why are we here? Is there a God? What is the meaning of life, etc.)

Some say answers to these questions are unknowable. That is such a colossally arrogant answer it is unbelievable. You mean, because you haven't found the answers, the answers are unknowable? What if we all took the same approach with the great discoveries of physics, medicine, and so on? Gee, I can't figure out the structure of molecules, so they must be unknowable.

Most of the intellectuals of today are sheep. They are taught that it is "scientific" not to believe in God, when to believe, or to disbelieve, without sufficient evidence, is what is unscientific. To settle a question of such importance without exhaustive investigation is not only unscientific, it is astonishingly ignorant.

The wisest man I ever met said "If you want to know if God exists, ask Him." That is, he went on to explain, if in a sincere fashion you say "God, I don't know if you're there, and I think you're probably not, but if you are, please show me in a way my intellect can't deny." Then look for the answer.

I wonder how many "scientists" among us would try this little experiment. If you do, let me know how you make out.

<IMG SRC="http://www.agw-werbeartikel.de/images/easy-rider.jpg"><br>"Still searching for America."

[FUNKMAN]

I have this theory:

When humans first came into existence there were the ones with GOOD character and ones with "NOT SO GOOD" character. Luckily the GOOD ones outnumbered the NOT SO GOOD ones.
The GOOD ones realized that they had to teach future humans how to be GOOD, otherwise it could mean the end of human kind, and they developed over time what we now call the Bible. If they could continue to keep the number of GOOD ONES more than NOT SO GOOD ones then it should insure the continued existence of humans.

When you think about it, teachings such as the 10 Commandments is such an awesomely good thing to live by. It may not be perfect but it is defenitely in the BEST INTERSET of Human Beings...

Last but not least it all depends on the "sincerity" in you're heart, regardless of what religion you follow... If you sincerely Love, if you are sincerely "remorseful" , if you sincerely CARE for you're fellow humans...

<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/covers/ontime100.jpg">

[TooCute]

Most of the intellectuals of today are sheep. They are taught that it is "scientific" not to believe in God, when to believe, or to disbelieve, without sufficient evidence, is what is unscientific.

That's not even remotely close to being true. I suppose this would mean that in my department - I'm getting my PhD in Ecology and Evolutionary Biology (like, yeah, we study evolution! You know, the anti-creationism?) - we all don't believe in God and we all just mindlessly follow our atheistic advisors, right? How ridiculous. I'll be sure to remind my two Jewish officemates that if they want their degrees they'd better stop believing in God. Oh fuck. My advisor is Jewish too.

That is as "colossally arrogant" a statement as you suggest "scientists" (why you put that it quotes I have no idea) make about the nature of God.

That ridiculousness aside, there is a large difference between being spiritual/religious (eg like my two Jewish officemate and advisor, two of whom aren't even religious enough to keep kosher and the other who keeps all his dairy and non-dairy silverware separate) and taking every single word in the bible literally. If the former works for you, great. If you're into the latter though, move to Arkansas and go mingle with your own kind. When I have kids I don't want to have to deal with the "should we teach evolution in schools" debate - I mean, why the hell in the year 2003 is it still a debate?? (that was a rhetorical question. Don't answer it.)

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[FiveB247]

Dewey I agree with parts of what you've said, but let me correlate it this way to you.

God to me is like referring to aliens. Aliens may exist. We may never see them first hand. We certainly hear people talk about them and say they have encounters and sitting's. There are books talking of them with pictures and recorded testimonials of what they encountered. But when it comes down to it, do you blindly believe the unknown with hopes of fulfillment? Do you believe in aliens? I believe they may exist. It's possible and not out of complete realm of thought...but on the same hand...they may not exist. And without actual proof or something legitimate proving such things...I believe it to be untrue (with the idea that it could be possible...but not proven so).

[TooCute]

When you think about it, teachings such as the 10 Commandments is such an awesomely good thing to live by. It may not be perfect but it is defenitely in the BEST INTERSET of Human Beings...

Sure, but you don't have to believe in God or be religious to live by the ten commandments (any of the thou shalt not have any other gods before me, thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image junk all goes out the window if you don't believe in god - easy to not take god's name in vain when you believe there isn't a god to have a name! - I guess the keep the sabbath thing is kind of random... but who REALLY does that these days anyway).

Here's something I always wondered: how come God can tell you not to be jealous (of your neighbor's wife, his ox, that junk) but he's allowed to be jealous?

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[HBox]

If anybody wants to laugh, go read up on what Scientolgists believe. Words just can't describe......

[TooCute]

You mean, because you haven't found the answers, the answers are unknowable? What if we all took the same approach with the great discoveries of physics, medicine, and so on? Gee, I can't figure out the structure of molecules, so they must be unknowable.


That is not why the answer is unknowable.
The difference of course is that all of these other things are physical objects and phenomena, while God apparently isn't.

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[Snoogans]

Why cant it be up to you. You got pissed when someone didnt believe what you did. Shouldnt he be able to get pissed at you too. The thought that your way of thinkin is the only right one is quite arrogant. Religion and God is whatever you want them to be, you may not be a devils fan doesnt mean i cant root for them, i dont really believe in religion but who am i to say someone else shouldnt

Iris Loves You!

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[FUNKMAN]

Sure, but you don't have to believe in God or be religious to live by the ten commandments (any of the thou shalt not have any other gods before me, thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image junk all goes out the window if you don't believe in god - easy to not take god's name in vain when you believe there isn't a god to have a name! - I guess the keep the sabbath thing is kind of random... but who REALLY does that these days anyway).

Here's something I always wondered: how come God can tell you not to be jealous (of your neighbor's wife, his ox, that junk) but he's allowed to be jealous?



TooCute:

Do you not feel that "Do not kill and do not steal" are some good things to live by. Why do you pick things apart and only talk about what you do not agree with. Do you ever acknowledge what good that might be included.
I said that they were "not perfect"...

how can you say that if there is a God that he's "jealous" if you worship materialistic items... I'm not sure if there is a God or not but i believe this is a foolish statement considering what a rational person would believe what is meant by this statement...

Please answer: What personal rules do you live by and where did you learn them from?

Thanks!

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[TheMojoPin]

God didn't discover toilets, underwear or hot dogs. SCIENCE did that. And don't give me that "God put it there for us to find it!" horseshit. If that's the case, it sounds like we've got a cosmic retard who likes really gay party games running the show.

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[TooCute]

Do you not feel that "Do not kill and do not steal" are some good things to live by. Why do you pick things apart and only talk about what you do not agree with. Do you ever acknowledge what good that might be included.
I said that they were "not perfect"...

Please reread what I wrote. What did I pick apart? All I said was that it's entirely possible for people who do not believe in god to live by the same rules that constitute the ten commandments. I confused as to what I picked apart.

how can you say that if there is a God that he's "jealous"
I didn't say it, He did, apparently to Moses when he told him he was a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers etc. Check your ten commandments.

if you worship materialistic items...
I do? In other words if I don't worship God, I must worship materialistic items? (btw how do you know I don't worship God?)

I'm not sure if there is a God or not but i believe this is a foolish statement

What is a foolish statement?
considering what a rational person would believe what is meant by this statement...
???

Please answer: What personal rules do you live by and where did you learn them from?

What personal rules? I am not sure what you mean by personal rules; I don't think I live by any hard and fast explicit rules. I act as I see appropriate to the situation, and I imagine I learned them from where everyone else learns them: my parents and the people around me.

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[FUNKMAN]

my parents and the people around me.



and where do you believe their beliefs came from...i would have to say that they followed some part of a religious teaching in their lives...

what i'm just saying is that even if you take one good thing from religion or the bible then it's worth it... is there anything in the 10 Commandments or Bible that is directly intended to hurt you or others?

<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/covers/anthology100.gif">



This message was edited by FUNKMAN on 4-15-03 @ 2:04 AM

[TheMojoPin]

I'm already noticing the Bible turns FUNKANIMALS into complete dorks. No good. BRING BACK THE FUNK.

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[TooCute]

and where do you believe their beliefs came from...i would have to say that they followed some part of a religious teaching in their lives...
Uh, no. What is your point? All good necessarily stems from religion?

what i'm just saying is that even if you take one good thing from religion or the bible then it's worth it...
Ok. You missed my point entirely, but ok.
is there anything in the 10 Commandments or Bible that is directly intended to hurt you or others?
Intended? Who knows. As for whether it could hurt me or others? How about you go back and read HK's threads on religion, or we'll just wait for him to come back from vacation and answer that :)

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[FUNKMAN]

yeah, i know you're waiting on me...
:)

i would have to say that they followed some part of a religious teaching in their lives...


you see I said this and you said:

Uh, no. What is your point? All good necessarily stems from religion?


I said PART and you imply that I mean ALL...for shame!
I only meant PART, alot of it has to do with your character...

Intended? Who knows. As for whether it could hurt me or others? How about you go back and read HK's threads on religion, or we'll just wait for him to come back from vacation and answer that


the things that HK has said and the reasons people persecute each other has, in my mind, nothing to do with religion... It is hatred, racism, and ignorance...
In HK's case, it is more of a revenge/hatred intention, he truly feels there is a race of people that are trying to continually murder people of his race. Not saying his feeling are justified but then again we don't have suicide bombers coming into our Italian(little Italy), or Polish neighborhoods, etc... If they did we would probably be quite upset and say some irrational things as well...
A Palestinian couldn't care less how a Jewish person worships, he hates because they are Jewish and they are on the land that they feel are theirs...
A group of white aryan people or KKK members, or just a couple punks in the street that want to hurt blacks or Peurto Ricans are not doing it because of what Church the black or Peurto Rican goes to or how they worship, etc... The main reason is because of the color of their skin and the aryan, KKK, and punks are ignorant, hateful, and racists...

are you at least getting a few of my points, man you are a tough cookie... don't be so hard!

all i'm asking from you is to admit that their is some good that religion has to offer...

PLEASE!
:)

<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/covers/anthology100.gif">







This message was edited by FUNKMAN on 4-15-03 @ 9:51 AM

[TooCute]

Good in religion? Sure. I did that from the very beginning (go back and check). If it works for you, great. My point STILL remains that one does not need religion to be good (admitting that is not tantamount to admitting that religion is bad) That's all.

And no. Neither of my parents is religious in the slightest. I have not been raised with even the slightest shred of religion. I don't steal, I honor my parents, I don't carve graven images of god (because I don't believe there is one or more of them), I don't covet my neighbor's wife (or his ox or her husband for that matter) etc etc and I'm a good person. Get it?

I was referring you to HK's posts on religion. Not on Islam per se. Although I don't go so far as he does to say that extremely religious people are pychotic (I'm not a shrink. I don't know the technical definition of the word), I do believe to a great extent that taking religion too seriously (I know you are going to ignore the two words "too seriously" so before you get all huffy, think about the difference between being spiritual/religious and taking every single word of the bible/koran/etc. literally) has been proven to be bad time and again in the past, present, and undoubtedly, future.

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[Se7en]

The greatest myth of all, which is perptuated by the likes of Campbell and Frazier, is that science has come along and essentially either destroyed religion, "exposed" it for being untrue / inaccurate, or will / has made religion outdated and false.

If you think along the same lines as those two, you are sadly mistaken.

People are always so quick to accept ONE or the OTHER, when the reality is that (at least with Christian faiths) religion and science over the past century have grown closer together. One does not have to eliminate the other. There are many theologies today that incorporate "atheist" concepts such as evolution into their theological structure.

A balance is being formed.

So the extremes are becoming more and more foolish. The Creationist world view AND the Nietzschean "God is dead" philosophy are becoming more and more irrelevant.

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I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.

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[A.J.]

I usually make a sacrifice to Apollo or consult the Oracle of Delphi for wisdom.

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[TooCute]

The Creationist world view AND the Nietzschean "God is dead" philosophy are becoming more and more irrelevant

I know many actively religious people. I don't know many actively anti-religious people (I mentioned this in a thread once before (http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm?topic=22516&forum=69&messageid=353017: when was the last time you were walking on the street and saw someone on the corner with a bullhorn handing out flyers and proclaiming "Lose God! God is dead!"?)

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This message was edited by TooCute on 4-15-03 @ 11:53 AM

[Bama]

This is an interesting thread. Perhaps some of you will be able to continue the discussion ... IN HELL!!!

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Thanks Bobimpact and CZM!
http://bobimpact.coolfreepage.com

[TheMojoPin]

And no. Neither of my parents is religious in the slightest. I have not been raised with even the slightest shred of religion.

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[TheMojoPin]

Proof of the harm religion can cause? Well, a strict Catholic upbringing made ME the man I am today...BOO.

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[TooCute]

Mojo this is the more appropriate religion for my dad's side of the family:

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[Furtherman]

There are many vaild points on both side of this discussion. I still ponder it to this day, but I know it is the little guilt light that lights up everytime I do, thank you catholic school.

But I'm come to the conclusion that religion, organized religion, was made up to control the masses. Whether there be an almighty entinity or not, common sence dictates that it is not a fan of ANY organized religion.

So many people feel their religion is the right one. (Please, you few who have an open mind know that I am talking about the majority of humankind). But I ask them - what is the one thing in life you cannot help? You cannot stop. You have no control. You have no decision.

Where you are born.

I could have been born in India. I would probably be a Hindu. I could have been born in Northern Ireland, maybe Protestant. I could have been born in Afghanastan, and might be fighting the US right now.

To me, that shows that is no "god" or whatever figure people worship. I do believe, however, that if you live a good life, you'll be alright. Maybe pass on to another plane of existence. If not, well, you really can't worry about it. Your dead.





Enough with the picture signatures.

[jratt]

But I'm come to the conclusion that religion, organized religion, was made up to control the masses.

I belive that this is true to an extent.I think that religion was made as a way to give value to ones life to give meanning if you are looking for it.I dont know what i believe other than my belief in mankind and that everyone is created equely(sp).

I think science is a great thing and to have knowledge is to have power and who doesnt want to have power.I also think religion 50 years ago is not the same it is today.i see it as more like a god incorparated where it is just a buisness to make money off of people that have faith.I also think the church has lost alot of credabilty these last few years with all the scandels and such.

I have no proof of what i am saying,i never realy went to church,frankly i dont care if you do or not.but what i do care and belive in is that mankind needs to move foward and evolve every day cause the day we get stail is the day mankind dies

jratt AKA johnbravo
...im a big black dude with a cool car. I go by the name "nigger". dont be shy.

as for people wishing they were you...

Nobody wishes they were a mistake.

[FUNKMAN]

And no. Neither of my parents is religious in the slightest. I have not been raised with even the slightest shred of religion


were you or your parents ever baptised?
and you can honestly say that your parents, their parents, yourself, and the generations before you never said a prayer or took any teaching in the Bible to heart?



<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/covers/anthology100.gif">

[Se7en]

I know many actively religious people.

I'll get all snooty now (as if I wasn't before): the "progressive" religious folks are incorporating scientific concepts into their religious structures, and the odd thing is that they DO fit.

I mean, people can believe whatever they want, in God, or no God, in themselves, whatever, but those people of faith who just go "Creationism! Evolution can't possible exist!" are sort of ignoring the fact that the concept / theory of evolution can fit PERFECTLY into a theological / Christian religious faith. There are numerous theories on this. Gap Theory, "Long Day" Theory, "Old Earth" theory.

My point is.....well, here:

I don't know many actively anti-religious people (I mentioned this in a thread once before (Visit this Website: when was the last time you were walking on the street and saw someone on the corner with a bullhorn handing out flyers and proclaiming "Lose God! God is dead!"?)

[First off, forgive me for not reading your link, as it's 4 pages long and I don't have the time on my lunch break.]

When I referred to Nietzsche, I'm referring to the mindset of some (such as Campbell & Frazier, who I referenced above) who believe(d) that science would come along as an avenging angel of sorts and bring about the great truth of the universe and make religion irrelevant. That, essentially, any religion based upon can be disproved and disregarded simply by throwing enough scientific facts at it.

It's all ridiculous. That's my point: there's so much fighting about which side trumps the other, when NEITHER side HAS to do so - there can be a balanced blend of them BOTH. If you're a Christian, you don't automatically have to disbelieve in scientific theories such as evolution. If you're an atheist / agnostic, you don't automatically have to believe the Bible (or any other holy text), for example, is a "comic book" as Mojo might put it, or that people of a religious faith are simpletons for having faith in something which may not be provable by scientific means.

People can believe whatever they want, of course, but it doesn't HAVE to be one way or the other. Religion doesn't HAVE to equal ignorance, "science" (a broad, general label for non-religion I suppose) doesn't necessarily equal enlightenment.

<img border="0" src="http://Se7enRFNet.homestead.com/files/se7en.jpg" width="300" height="100">

I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.

"I was here before the oceans turned black with life, and when the deserts are white with death I will remain."
---Saint Iago

[TheMojoPin]

Doesn't "professional" wrestling negate the very notion of God right off the bat?

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[TooCute]

were you or your parents ever baptised?

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST. How many times do I have to say no? Do you think if you keep asking I'm going to say oh, wait, yeah, actually me and my parents go to church every sunday. How could I forget?! I said no. I mean no.

and you can honestly say that your parents, YES their parents,I know for a fact that my mom's side of the family who are from Japan and are either Buddhist or Shinto never have yourself Do you know how to read?! YES. The only reason I've ever even opened the bible is because part of it was required reading in english class freshman year in high school , and the generations before youHow is this even remotely relevant to the point I'm making? never said a prayer or took any teaching in the Bible to heart? Hey guess what. did you know people can be RELIGIOUS and have not read the BIBLE? What a revalation (pun intended)!


I STILL don't understand. What is the point you're trying to make? It's like you're arguing with yourself.

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This message was edited by TooCute on 4-15-03 @ 3:04 PM

[TooCute]

Se7en - I'm agreeing with you! I was just pointing out that one doens't encounter nearly as many of those "no-god" extremists as the "god" extremists!

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[Captain Stubing]

TC, I'm not sure if this is Funk's point but I'll throw it out there.........core religious teachings have influenced people in many (all?) societies throughout the ages regardless of whether those people are religious per se. So, whether you are personally religious or not there are formalized (via laws) and informal rules of behavior that are largely based on religious principles and that impact and constrain (sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly) your behavior.

Fezaesthesia - Prognosis poor...

[silera]

Religion does not equal ignorance.

Ignorance is when you think the way you live your life is the way everyone else should. Religious people are sometimes like that, as are non-religious people.

I believe in God. It works for me. I worship my God differently from how others might, but in the end I'd say whatever helps you lead a life that affects the people around you positively is enough.



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<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=FBF2F7>

[ADF]

I agree with se7en in that science and religion can coexist. However, religion isn't a necessity. Life doesn't need god for it to work. Science, essentially, is the nuts and bolts understanding of how our universe works. It's possible to have a wonderful life without god, but to live without "believing" in science (for example, being a creationist) is foolish.

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I wanna go. I wanna go... to Ontario!
</center>

[FollowThisLogic]

But I'm come to the conclusion that religion, organized religion, was made up to control the masses.
I agree completely.

Let's make a little comparison.

If you're good person all your life.....
If you're good little boy all year long....

...then when you die...
...then when Christmas comes...

...god will bring you to heaven...
...Santa will bring you presents...

...and if you're bad, you go to hell.
...and if you're bad, you get a lump of coal.

Don't tell me I'm trivializing it. You can tell YOURSELF that, to try to justify it all to yourself....... tell yourself that because you don't want to think that it's just a way to get you to want to behave..... but it is. Just as you may try to control your kids' behavior with Santa. Just as your behavior was controlled by your own parents with warnings of Santa.

I worship my God differently from how others might, but in the end I'd say whatever helps you lead a life that affects the people around you positively is enough.
That's fine. I'm all for keeping religion to a personal matter. When people try to push it on me though, I get pretty pissed off, and it was such a matter that made me start this thread.

I agree with se7en in that science and religion can coexist.
I question this a lot, as many things in religion contradict science completely.

Keep in mind - I'm going to be talking about the really devout Christians here, NOT people who are like most of the people in this thread, who have had enough sense to INTERPRET their religion to fit themselves. Interpretation is A GOOD THING.

BUT! If you're blindly going to follow the Bible, then you believe the Earth is around... 12,000 years old. TWELVE THOUSAND YEARS.

Now, here's a tidbit for you other silly folk who come along and try to justify science and religion at the same time by saying god's "days" in which he created the Earth were not actually days in the sense that we know days, each day was actually millions or billions of years.

And though it might fit science...... what kind of shit is that? The whole splendor of a diety is that he could create a WHOLE WORLD in a matter of DAYS. Ain't so spectacular if those "days" were actually billions of years, now is it?

And this is only the first example I could think of, to show what happens when science and religion try to meet on stuff. You may justify the "days" explanation in your own head, but then again you feel that the whole Bible is justified, so you're not the most credible source....

(The above "you" is no one in particular, just the group who uses such justifications.)

[quote]"The Babel fish," said The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy quietly, "is small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy not from its carrier but from those around it. It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the conscious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centres of the brain which has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish.

"Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindboggingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.

"The argument goes something like this: `I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'

"`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'

"`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of

[grlNIN]

Cant we all just agree that Hell is for children???

<center>Jesus Dont Want Me For A Sunbeam
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</center>


This message was edited by grlNiN on 4-15-03 @ 4:42 PM

[Se7en]

When people try to push it on me though, I get pretty pissed off, and it was such a matter that made me start this thread.

The problem here with this is that people have varying definitions of what "push religion on me" means.

Some people are more subjective than others. For some people, the very mention of, for example, the Judeo-Christian God, is "pushing their religion" on me. Having the word "God" on the dollar bill, or in the pledge of allegiance, is "pushing religion" on them, no matter how secularized the bill / pledge may be.

<img border="0" src="http://Se7enRFNet.homestead.com/files/se7en.jpg" width="300" height="100">

I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.

"I was here before the oceans turned black with life, and when the deserts are white with death I will remain."
---Saint Iago

[golfcourseguy]

Did you ever wonder what Iris thinks?

Everybody's wonderin' what and where they all came from.
Everybody's worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go when the whole thing's done.
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.

Some say once you're gone you're gone forever, and some say you're gonna come back.
Some say you rest in the arms of the Saviour if in sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they're comin' back in a garden, bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.

Everybody's wonderin' what and where they all came from.
Everybody's worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go when the whole thing's done.
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.

Some say they're goin' to a place called Glory and I ain't saying it ain't a fact.
But I've heard that I'm on the road to purgatory and I don't like the sound of that.
Well, I believe in love and I live my life accordingly.
But I choose to let the mystery be.

Everybody's wonderin' what and where they all came from.
Everybody's worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go when the whole thing's done.
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.

Iris De Ment , that is



" editing posts since day one"

[TheMojoPin]

I don't even see why people need to "explain" God creating the world in seven days...to me, it's bunk...but the "Big Bang" itself, if that did happen, shit, doesn't THAT seem pretty majestically God-like in its own right? Fuck the "seven day theory"...the Big Bang is pretty goddamn impressive, work of God or not.

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[TheMojoPin]

Listen to the man who speaks of the words of the Posies. He knows all.

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[FUNKMAN]

TC, I'm not sure if this is Funk's point but I'll throw it out there.........core religious teachings have influenced people in many (all?) societies throughout the ages regardless of whether those people are religious per se. So, whether you are personally religious or not there are formalized (via laws) and informal rules of behavior that are largely based on religious principles and that impact and constrain (sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly) your behavior.



Captain Stubbing,

Thanks for some support. She really kicked my ass on that last reply.

TooCute is actually teaching me some things i did not know and opening my eyes to other things i should have known. I've been forgetting about the other faiths in the world like Buddhism and Hinduism that do not use the Bible...She is well informed and is able to write and express herself well...

In my first post on this thread i explained my theory about Human beings starting out with only their character. The people with good character I feel invented religion to help future generations continue with good character...
Again, it's only a theory...

I think TooCute believes that religion is not necessary and that "good character" is all that is needed, and who is to say she is wrong...

In my mind there had to be somewhere within her upbringing some influence of religion. Either being friends with people who made a point of living their life by what they learned from their religion, teachers who led their lives based on values they took from religion...
Not to exclude anyone's good character...

With that said I would have to say that TooCute is not the most tolerant of other people... Judging by her responses to HK and the quote below from her earlier response in this thread, she seems to have a problem with Jewish people...

there is a large difference between being spiritual/religious
(eg like my two Jewish officemate and advisor, two of whom aren't
even religious enough to keep kosher and the other who keeps all his dairy
and non-dairy silverware separate) and taking every single word in the bible literally.
If the former works for you, great.
If you're into the latter though, move to Arkansas and go mingle with your own kind.

<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/covers/anthology100.gif">

[Arienette]

for my part (and some of this will be redundant since i'm entering the thread so late), i see the bible and all that as a fairy tale more than anything else. it's got the basic make-up of one, namely fanciful stories with a moral. i'm not at all religious, and i'm doubtful about the existence of a god. further, even if i did believe in a higher being or whatnot, i believe in science a lot more. i try to live my life according to the same basic ideals that many religious people do, ie: the morals of those little stories. they're meant to teach you as a child what it means to be a good person, and how you should treat others and behave generally. i think i've taken these things without really seeing the need to believe the stories. i think not killing or stealing, honoring your parents, and all the rest is good stuff. but i dont see why i need religion to force me to live that way. that all said, i dont know that i'd call it ignorant to be religious. but i dont understand how otherwise intelligent adults can convince themselves to believe in fairy tales.

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we hope your rules and wisdom choke you</center>

This message was edited by Arienette on 4-15-03 @ 6:55 PM

[Sage]

For those that think that religion is a bunch of bunk and that you don't need it to know good from bad.... good for you.

But, might I suggest that you praise religion for the control it has over the unkempt masses who are not bright enough to know right from wrong without God telling them.

Since everyone around you is an idiot, then the idiots need religion. So, let's let them have their religion.

And, don't touch my ears.



One for all, all for handies...
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<a href="http://www.cafeshops.com/handiesusa">Handies Across America</a> :)

[TooCute]

I figured it out. I can be pretty slow sometimes. Funkman, you're purposely pretending not to understand my posts to goad me into a fight with you. Have fun. Reiterating myself over and over while you make it seem like I'm arguing with you is a waste of time. Pretend I am an anti-Semite and that I am only a good person because of religion if you want.

If you're honestly this dense, no amount of "arguing" is going to help you (and recall that the only thing I have "argued" with you about is you assertion that my family and I are religious. You pretend to think that I am disagreeing with everything you're saying).

If you're not this dense, then ha ha joke's on me. You got me!

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[TooCute]

TC, I'm not sure if this is Funk's point but I'll throw it out there.........core religious teachings have influenced people in many (all?) societies throughout the ages regardless of whether those people are religious per se. So, whether you are personally religious or not there are formalized (via laws) and informal rules of behavior that are largely based on religious principles and that impact and constrain (sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly) your behavior.


This is true. I don't disagree... so this means that the statements I've made are false?
Review:

1. I am not religious. I was not raised in a religious household. My parents are not religious. They were not raised in religious households
2. It is possibly to be a "good" person who follows the ten commandments without being remotely religious.

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This message was edited by TooCute on 4-15-03 @ 8:08 PM

[TooCute]

Judging by her responses to HK
Which responses exactly? I'd be fascinated to see this.

and the quote below from her earlier response in this thread, she seems to have a problem with Jewish people

So you know, I'll be unavailable to continue this discussion with you tomorrow because I'll be at my boyfriend's (oh yeah. he's jewish AND we live in sin. the horror) parents' house for Passover. And I'm bringing a kosher-for-passover apple kugel.

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[FUNKMAN]

You pretend to think that I am disagreeing with everything you're saying).



not really, i just feel that you only choose to talk about things you disagree with...

as far as your boyfriend is concerned, hopefully he doesn't have any silverware issues, then what was it "he would have to mingle with his own kind in Arkansas"



<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/covers/anthology100.gif">

[Death Metal Moe]

I kick as for the LORD!!!

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666%

[TooCute]

Please please please please please read every single word and make an attempt at understanding before making another reply, ok, funkman?

not really, i just feel that you only choose to talk about things you disagree with...
You're really serious, aren't you?!

Sweetheart. I didn't disagree with anything you said concerning religion as it applies to society. I merely clarified. You said "living by the ten commandments is good" I said "it is possible to live by the ten commandments and not be religious". Those are both true statements. One doesn't negate the other. Yes or no?

as far as your boyfriend is concerned, hopefully he doesn't have any silverware issues, then what was it "he would have to mingle with his own kind in Arkans
Hmm, let's see. Let me suggest you go read an SAT prep book chapter on reading comprehension first before I suggest you go back and read what I wrote. I don't hold much hope for you, though, if you consider me reminding you that there are religions other than those based on the Bible "opening your eyes".

I'll annotate it here though to help you out: I mentioned my advisor and officemates to give you an example of the degree to which they followed their religion (and clearly the one who separates silverware is religious and believe in god and all that, but he also believes in evolution) and how that was compatible with science, and the Arkansas comment referred to religious "extremists" of any religion. I don't want the headache of dealing people who take the word of the central religious text of their religion literally and want to push it in my face, which is the larger rather than the smaller proportion of such extreme people.

And no, again, to answer before you ask, I'm not religious.

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This message was edited by TooCute on 4-15-03 @ 8:36 PM

[ShelleBink]

Hey Peachy.... catch me on AIM if you get a chance.

God, Schmod, this was all an extensive plot to get to talk to Peachy ; )

BAD HUSBAND. BAD BAD BAD

Real men love EVIL.

and I am EVIL.

I believe in God. It works for me. I worship my God differently from how others might, but in the end I'd say whatever helps you lead a life that affects the people around you positively is enough.

To add to this, I think God is a good idea for some people. Its just when they started TELLING you how to make a happy God through ridiculous rules within the Catholic Church, that's when it started getting messed up. I grew up and still live in a house where my parents go to mass every weekend. It makes them happy. Its when it becomes a burden, that's when religion is going too far. I could go on, but my comments are probably going to be picked and prodded for the next few posts.

***
"Don't question God. Job didn't question God. What did he get? The best lesson learned of all. God is the shit." -- my athiest friend's thesis in college from about 5 years ago... oh the irony.

<marquee><font size=4><b>IN CASE YOU DIDN'T REALIZE IT, I'M USUALLY JOKING</font></b></marquee>

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<marquee>
<font color=white>I'm not racist, I just hate assholes.</font></marquee>

[FUNKMAN]

And no, again, to answer before you ask, I'm not religious.


i agreed to that earlier:

I think TooCute believes that religion is not necessary and that "good character" is all that is needed, and who is to say she is wrong...


I don't want the headache of dealing people who take the word of the central religious text of their religion literally and want to push it in my face


how did he push it in your face? It seemed from the way you wrote it that he was just practicing his religious customs...



<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/covers/anthology100.gif">

[TooCute]

how did he push it in your face? It seemed from the way you wrote it that he was just practicing his religious customs..

You really crack me up. Can you go back, read that paragraph, and tell me what you're reading? Because evidently our monitors are displaying different things.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
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[FUNKMAN]

and taking every single word in the bible literally


is it this part? if so, what are some of the things he pushed on you?

and why didn't you acknowledge that I understood what you believe, in my last reply...
you just reply in a condescending manner about the statement you disagreed with...

<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/covers/anthology100.gif">

[Uncle Smokey]

Sweetheart. I didn't disagree with anything you said


Umm, how come you've never called me sweetheart?

<IMG SRC="http://www.jrsfilm.com/bishop1.asp">

[Death Metal Moe]

http://www.cuttingedge.org/SabbaticGoat.JPG

<IMG SRC="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=njdmmoe">
<A HREF="http://www.unhallowed.com">www.unhallowed.com</A>
<font size=2 color=333366>
<marquee behavior=alternate scrolldelay=30>DEATH FACTION 4 LIFE!!!</marquee>
</font>

666%

[TooCute]

I originally wrotee:
There is a large difference between being spiritual/religious (eg like my two Jewish officemate and advisor, two of whom aren't even religious enough to keep kosher and the other who keeps all his dairy and non-dairy silverware separate) and taking every single word in the bible literally.

You see how the phrase "every single word in the bible literally" stand alone, and that all of the examples of people I know in the parenthesis are people I consider to be religious to varying degrees (who also believe in evolution?).

This is exactly what I just wrote in this paragraph where I was trying to explain it for you:

'll annotate it here though to help you out: I mentioned my advisor and officemates to give you an example of the degree to which they followed their religion (and clearly the one who separates silverware is religious and believe in god and all that, but he also believes in evolution) and how that was compatible with science, and the Arkansas comment referred to religious "extremists" of any religion. I don't want the headache of dealing people who take the word of the central religious text of their religion literally and want to push it in my face, which is the larger rather than the smaller proportion of such extreme people.


and why didn't you acknowledge that I understood what you believe, in my last reply...


Because I thought that by making a joke about it (saying that you didn't need to ask AGAIN), I already had.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
!! 2% !!<font color=FBF2F7>

[TooCute]

Umm, how come you've never called me sweetheart?

I don't know, sugarplum!

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
!! 2% !!<font color=FBF2F7>

[FUNKMAN]

I don't know, sugarplum!



two timer...

nice chatting with you, i think... i don't think i've ever been that insulted in any prior thread...

i will lick my wounds, but not literally...

PEACE!





<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/covers/anthology100.gif">

[Immigration Dude]

This discussion is why wars are fought.

<IMG SRC= http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rnfdkms/files/sigpic-imdude.JPG >

"P.S., every thursday shall be free ice cream day".

[FUNKMAN]

This discussion is why wars are fought.



you mean you read this whole thread?

why didn't you jump in?

I stay in the conversation to help build my patience and learn to deal with disagreements... i feel better afterwards if I can get through the discussion without attempting to personally attack someone or throw harsh insults...

you should try it....

<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/covers/anthology100.gif">

[TheMojoPin]

If comic books have taught me anything, the Devil is pretty fucking rico suave. EVIL IS TOO SEXY!!!

<img src="http://comics.toonzone.net/solicitations/2002-08/vertigo/lucifer-tpb3.jpg"width=450>

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
2% << FREE YERDADDY! >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TooCute]

I stay in the conversation to help build my patience and learn to deal with disagreement

We never disagreed except about your interpretation of what you thought I wrote, funkyboy.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
!! 2% !!<font color=FBF2F7>

[TooCute]

Evil looks like a big vag.

<img src="http://www.filmweb.no/oslokino/ringenesherre/images/sauron.jpg">

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
!! 2% !!<font color=FBF2F7>

[FUNKMAN]

i feel better afterwards if I can get through the discussion without attempting to personally attack someone or throw harsh insults


i see you left this part out CUTEYPANTS...

how conveniant!!!!

huh, feeling guilty i bet!
:)

<img src="http://www.geocities.com/ronippolito/band.txt">



This message was edited by FUNKMAN on 4-16-03 @ 1:08 AM

[TooCute]

see you left this part out CUTEYPANTS...

how conveniant!!!!

huh, feeling guilty i bet

I don't understand why you don't just get AIM and IM me all this stuff that is of little relevance to the thread or the rest of the world.

In fact I'm not feeling remotely guilty. I'm feeling disappointed that what could have been an interesting discussion was derailed by your inability to comprehend what you read. And that's not intended as an insult. Just the truth about how I feel.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
!! 2% !!<font color=FBF2F7>

[FollowThisLogic]

Some people are more subjective than others. For some people, the very mention of, for example, the Judeo-Christian God, is "pushing their religion" on me. Having the word "God" on the dollar bill, or in the pledge of allegiance, is "pushing religion" on them, no matter how secularized the bill / pledge may be.
An example of the "pushing religion" that my friend has done to me is correcting me while I'm talking about something..... I don't recall the exact conversation but I mentioned mother nature and was corrected with "not mother nature, god." That's pushing.

But, might I suggest that you praise religion for the control it has over the unkempt masses who are not bright enough to know right from wrong without God telling them.
Including those who fly planes at buildings? They thought their religion told them it was right.

I don't understand why you don't just get AIM and IM me all this stuff that is of little relevance to the thread or the rest of the world.
Because board stuff belongs on the board, and IM stuff is personal. Or RFMail it.

<center><b><img src="http://followthislogic.50megs.com/rf-screw.jpg" alt="Just say 'Screw all ya'll.' Trust me. It'll work."></b><br><marquee direction=up scrollamount=1 height=14><center>all that i have<br><br>all that i hold<br><br>all that.. is wrong<br><br><br>all that i feel for or trust in or love<br><br>all that.. is gone<br><br><br><br><br></center><br><br><br><br></marquee></center>

[ADF]

Funkman, I think your reading comprehension needs some retooling. Also, your "theory" about the origins of good, evil, and religion is.. well, no comment.

<center><a href = "http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com"><img src = http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/pane.gif title = "2%" width = 300 height = 100></a>
I wanna go. I wanna go... to Ontario!
</center>

[HBox]

The Devil looks like David Bowie.

[grlNIN]

The Devil looks like David Bowie.




Im thinking more along the lines of Robert Redford

<center>Jesus Dont Want Me For A Sunbeam
<IMG SRC=http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=ariam21></center>


<center>And if you don't agree with me, fuck you too, cause you forced-happy motherfuckers make me just as sick.-FTL
</center>

[ShelleBink]

Mojo's devil looks like my bf's dad in his younger days.

<marquee><font size=4><b>IN CASE YOU DIDN'T REALIZE IT, I'M USUALLY JOKING</font></b></marquee>

<center><b><FONT FACE="Verdana" SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#FF8040">I</FONT><FONT COLOR="#EC8653">R</FONT><FONT COLOR="#D98C66">I</FONT><FONT COLOR="#C59379">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#B2998C">H</FONT><FONT COLOR="#9F9F9F"> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#9F9F9F">F</FONT><FONT COLOR="#849A84">A</FONT><FONT COLOR="#6A946A">C</FONT><FONT COLOR="#508F50">T</FONT><FONT COLOR="#358A35">I</FONT><FONT COLOR="#1A841A">O</FONT><FONT COLOR="#007F00">N</FONT></FONT></b><br>
<IMG SRC="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=bink02"></img></center>

<marquee>
<font color=white>I'm not racist, I just hate assholes.</font></marquee>

[Death Metal Moe]

Don't forget, Lucifer was the most beautiful angle in heaven.

<IMG SRC="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=njdmmoe">
<A HREF="http://www.unhallowed.com">www.unhallowed.com</A>
<font size=2 color=333366>
<marquee behavior=alternate scrolldelay=30>DEATH FACTION 4 LIFE!!!</marquee>
</font>

666%

[TheMojoPin]

I think the most clever, too...I remember hearing that God gave Michael the power to "run" a universe, but he gave Lucifer the will/mind...

<img src="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=TheMojoPin">
2% << FREE YERDADDY! >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Death Metal Moe]

I've heard that Hell isn't actually all fire and brimstone like they do it in Hollywood. People knowledgeable in the field of Theology say it's just a place abscent of God's grace. It's an existence outside of God's domain.

So I'm thinking it's gotta be a step up from Jersey. Bring it on!!!

There's probably the same percentage of Democrats there too. Bummer, my vote will NEVER count!

<IMG SRC="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=njdmmoe">
<A HREF="http://www.unhallowed.com">www.unhallowed.com</A>
<font size=2 color=333366>
<marquee behavior=alternate scrolldelay=30>DEATH FACTION 4 LIFE!!!</marquee>
</font>

666%

[fluffernutter]

Lucifer was the most beautiful angle in heaven.

Thank goodness his surgery went well or else he may have been.

http://www.olympic-usa.org/10_questions/images/angle.jpg

http://www.happytreefriends.com/watch_episodes/images/ep_lg_easter.gifhttp://www.happytreefriends.com/watch_episodes/images/ep_lg_antics.gif

This message was edited by fluffernutter on 4-17-03 @ 1:57 AM

[Freebird]

Lucifer was the most beautiful angle in heaven.

Does that make Kurt the most beautiful angle on Earth?? :)

Or does that make Lucifer the originator of the "nWo" angle, long before Bischoff ever thought of it? And is God Vince McMahon, or does he simply have McMahon-like qualities?

Darn it! How did I not see fluffernutter's post? Aaghh!!!!

-----------------------------
Now I'm starving

I'm about to turn it up a notch!

This message was edited by Freebird on 4-18-03 @ 2:32 AM

[Furtherman]

When it comes to this topic, Religion = Ignorance? This explains it best:

http://www.objectivethought.com/atheism/carlin.html

If everyone follwed this logic, the world would be a better place.





Enough with the picture signatures.

This message was edited by Furtherman on 4-24-03 @ 1:42 PM

[Captain Stubing]

None, not one, no God, never was

That's from the Carlin rant and, funny and thought provoking though it might be, consider this - if you can't prove that God exists then you can't prove that God does not exist. Hence, atheism becomes as untenable as theism, leaving agnosticism as the winner by default.

That makes Carlin as full of shit as any preacher.

Fezaesthesia - Prognosis poor...

[FMJeff]

ugh not another religion thread...

<center><img src="http://members.aol.com/sabanj666/ass.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.</center>

[Vee]

if you can't prove that God exists then you can't prove that God does not exist. Hence, atheism becomes as untenable as theism, leaving agnosticism as the winner by default.


I've always thought this. I mean, people say they believe because they have faith, so that seems to be the justification for them. It just doesnt have to be proven... Which is probably what they're parents told them growing up. Anyway, if thats good enough for them and it keeps them from raping my future daughter, then great! However, it doesnt. I know some deeply religious people who go to all the ceremonies and do all the traditional stuff, and some of them are viscious, manipulative backstabbers. But I guess you can do whatever you want as long as you confess later.
Anyway, I never really agreed with the concept of aetheism for 2 reasons.
1. Nobody can be certain whether there is a god or not. You can only believe or not believe, which actually isnt even your choice. I cant choose to believe and a believer cant choose not to believe.
2. God is simply a matter of what you or your religion defines it as. Indians dont believe he's some old guy with magical powers. They think he's an elephant or a 6 arm dude or something.
Since God is simply whatever your religion defines it as, aetheism claims that all notions of God are incorrect, which includes personal beliefs as well as organized religions. So if you're personal belief is that there is a God, but it is not a conscious being, its a force that is merely trying to survive, you're wrong to an aetheist. If your God is simply that which created the universe, whether consciously or not, and the "laws" that make life and science possible then your God clearly exists because here we are. But an aethist, as far as I know says no.
I could just be oversimplifying aetheism of course. I'll have to look into the specific beliefs sometime.

[DC Reed]

Ignorance = Bliss

<IMG SRC="http://dcreed.freeservers.com/images/dcrampage.gif">

<marquee behavoir=alternate>Go Flyers! Go Devils, KILL TAMPA BAY I WANT ST.LOUIS HEAD ON A STICK</marquee>

[RoseBlood]

Pretty much common sense, but interesting nonetheless

why-atheism-will-replace-religion-new-evidence (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/201107/why-atheism-will-replace-religion-new-evidence)

[KingModem]

Same thing I have told everyone in my life for a long time. If you have hardship or life challenges, I am happy that you have religion so you have something to throw all your cares onto. But I feel in control of my life, so I don't need it.

[cougarjake13]

Pretty much common sense, but interesting nonetheless

why-atheism-will-replace-religion-new-evidence (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/201107/why-atheism-will-replace-religion-new-evidence)

very interesting


and makes all the sense in the world

[A.J.]

Pretty much common sense, but interesting nonetheless

why-atheism-will-replace-religion-new-evidence (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/201107/why-atheism-will-replace-religion-new-evidence)

The Vulcans will show us the way after First Contact.

[Crispy_Mobile]

It makes no sense. The guys "research" consists of making inferences from poll data. Atheism takes just as much faith as Christianity & islam plus their are large numbers of people in the world who practice Bhuddism which is technically an Atheistic religion.

[hanso]

<object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/J74y88YuSJ8?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/J74y88YuSJ8?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="390" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

Boogedy Boogedy Boogedy Amen!

[cougarjake13]

<object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/J74y88YuSJ8?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/J74y88YuSJ8?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="390" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

Boogedy Boogedy Boogedy Amen!



was pretty badass

[BigRigRichard]

I never could understand why everyone wants proof that there is a God. The people that think God doesn't exist are just like the conspirators that think 9/11 didn't happen. Its the same argument. One side has this proof, the other side believes this. I've actually got a book coming out towards the end of summer that explains my thoughts more. It's called "Something To Believe In". Keep an eye out for it on amazon. Till then, can't we just agree to disagree.

:)

[StanUpshaw]

I never could understand why everyone wants proof that there is a God. The people that think God doesn't exist are just like the conspirators that think 9/11 didn't happen. Its the same argument. One side has this proof, the other side believes this. I've actually got a book coming out towards the end of summer that explains my thoughts more. It's called "Something To Believe In". Keep an eye out for it on amazon. Till then, can't we just agree to disagree.

:)

http://i.imgur.com/1tytJ.jpg

[Space Frog]

Religion is a great tool, but only an idiot fixes anything with just one tool.

[underdog]

I never could understand why everyone wants proof that there is a God. The people that think God doesn't exist are just like the conspirators that think 9/11 didn't happen. Its the same argument. One side has this proof, the other side believes this. I've actually got a book coming out towards the end of summer that explains my thoughts more. It's called "Something To Believe In". Keep an eye out for it on amazon. Till then, can't we just agree to disagree.

:)

Your analogy is terrible.

[keithy_19]

Your analogy is terrible.

Or maybe you just think 9/11 didn't happen.

[BigRigRichard]

Or maybe you just think 9/11 didn't happen.

i know 9/11 happened, but some idiots don't. That's what I was saying. No matter what I show you that proves or disproves God, someone will argue it. So, we'll just agree to disagree.

:bye:

[Furtherman]

i know 9/11 happened, but some idiots don't. That's what I was saying. No matter what I show you that proves or disproves God, someone will argue it. So, we'll just agree to disagree.

:bye:

9/11 is factual.

gods are not. You cannot prove - or disprove. You can however, prove they were created by man. It doesn't disprove such a notion, only what we've been taught is man-made.

[BigRigRichard]

How would you explain that religions that have never faced each other for hundreds of years finally meet and discover that the majority of them are related? I'm not saying it isn't man made, jsut stating fact that over 200 different religions in the world and all pretty much have the same ending. Die, go to someplace better or worse. It's not like there was one person wandering aimlessly spreading the same notions to people across the globe back in the 20 AD era. Just have to agree to disagree.

:bye:

[Earlshog]

Your analogy is terrible.

his analogy really does stink!

[BigRigRichard]

his analogy really does stink!

It only stinks because that's the way some people think. Just because they can not be shown something tangible, they expect it doesn't exist. I really have no idea why I keep defending this, I've not the best faith in the world on some things. I just feel like because you don't happen to understand something, then you shouldn't call people ignorant who do.

[Furtherman]

How would you explain that religions that have never faced each other for hundreds of years finally meet and discover that the majority of them are related? I'm not saying it isn't man made, jsut stating fact that over 200 different religions in the world and all pretty much have the same ending. Die, go to someplace better or worse. It's not like there was one person wandering aimlessly spreading the same notions to people across the globe back in the 20 AD era. Just have to agree to disagree.

:bye:

Hundreds? Try thousands. All related, substituted, evolved, sprung forth and divided from earlier incantations of the same thing - explain what man cannot explain. And does every religion have the same ending as you state? No, they do not.

[Crispy123]

Hundreds? Try thousands. All related, substituted, evolved, sprung forth and divided from earlier incantations of the same thing - explain what man cannot explain. And does every religion have the same ending as you state? No, they do not.

Furtherman makes an excellent point, Mr Rig. Especially when you accept that atheism is just as much a religion as Catholicism or Judaism.

[BigRigRichard]

It is a good point and I wish I could argue against you. There is no evidence that God does not exist nor is there concrete evidence he does. I think for now I will just throw in the towel.

:surrender:

[brettmojo]

When you all just accept that you're genetically engineered alien/human hybrids the world will be a better place.

[underdog]

It only stinks because that's the way some people think. Just because they can not be shown something tangible, they expect it doesn't exist. I really have no idea why I keep defending this, I've not the best faith in the world on some things. I just feel like because you don't happen to understand something, then you shouldn't call people ignorant who do.

No, it stunk because it didn't make sense.

[KC2OSO]

The origin of bicamerality




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology))

There's some further reading too..

[hanso]

When you all just accept that you're genetically engineered alien/human hybrids the world will be a better place.

Right on! Like the avatar guy with the hair. Makes this even better:laugh:

[KC2OSO]

just keep passing the facts by

[Space Frog]

http://www.cuttingedge.org/SabbaticGoat.JPG <IMG SRC="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=njdmmoe"> <A HREF="http://www.unhallowed.com">www.unhallowed.com</A> <font size=2 color=333366> <marquee behavior=alternate scrolldelay=30>DEATH FACTION 4 LIFE!!!</marquee> </font> 666% Nice to see the lore lives on. Another image that people dont understand.

[foodcourtdruide]

Furtherman makes an excellent point, Mr Rig. Especially when you accept that atheism is just as much a religion as Catholicism or Judaism.

You're lucky death metal moe no longer posts on this board.

[angrymissy]

i know 9/11 happened, but some idiots don't. That's what I was saying. No matter what I show you that proves or disproves God, someone will argue it. So, we'll just agree to disagree.

:bye:

Your book is sure to be a doozy with your super intelligent comparisons. I can't wait!

*psst* there is no argument as to whether or not 9/11 HAPPENED

[angrymissy]

It only stinks because that's the way some people think. Just because they can not be shown something tangible, they expect it doesn't exist. I really have no idea why I keep defending this, I've not the best faith in the world on some things. I just feel like because you don't happen to understand something, then you shouldn't call people ignorant who do.

There is a gigantic rhinoceros floating in the rings of Saturn. I know you can't see it, but it exists.

[hanso]

http://i.imgur.com/WCzJu.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rn8AS.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/5IllO.jpg

[BigRigRichard]

just keep passing the facts by

what facts are you talking about? the fact that the bible was written by 40 different people and each one records a glimpse of history? 4 of which described Jesus time on Earth in their own POV. there was no you tube to put noah's ark voyage on, but with satelite imaging Daniel McGivern found it. it was the turkish government that wouldn't let them hike to it and bring back evidence. The bible also tells us about evolution and faith in believing what we can not comprehend, but no one is willing to read it.

I wish more people would have open minds about things. Maybe then we would stop arguing over silly things like what each other should believe instead of just letting each other be.

:surrender:

[hanso]

If "The bible also tells us about evolution"

Then there would not be such strife over it being taught in schools.

And if you come back with intelligent design. This conversation is over.

[Crispy123]

There is a gigantic rhinoceros floating in the rings of Saturn. I know you can't see it, but it exists.

Seen it? I talk to it all the time!

[Furtherman]

what facts are you talking about? the fact that the bible was written by 40 different people and each one records a glimpse of history? 4 of which described Jesus time on Earth in their own POV. there was no you tube to put noah's ark voyage on, but with satelite imaging Daniel McGivern found it. it was the turkish government that wouldn't let them hike to it and bring back evidence. The bible also tells us about evolution and faith in believing what we can not comprehend, but no one is willing to read it.

I wish more people would have open minds about things. Maybe then we would stop arguing over silly things like what each other should believe instead of just letting each other be.

:surrender:

The Bible was written long after the alleged Jesus was around.

And you lost any credibility with that well debunked Noah's ark on a mountainside in Turkey nonsense, let alone believing such an event was possible.

[Bob Impact]

what facts are you talking about? the fact that the bible was written by 40 different people and each one records a glimpse of history? 4 of which described Jesus time on Earth in their own POV. there was no you tube to put noah's ark voyage on, but with satelite imaging Daniel McGivern found it. it was the turkish government that wouldn't let them hike to it and bring back evidence. The bible also tells us about evolution and faith in believing what we can not comprehend, but no one is willing to read it.

I wish more people would have open minds about things. Maybe then we would stop arguing over silly things like what each other should believe instead of just letting each other be.

:surrender:

heh... hehehe.... HAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
In 2004, Honolulu-based businessman Daniel McGivern announced he would finance a $900,000 expedition to the peak of Greater Ararat in July of that year to investigate the "Ararat anomaly"—he had previously paid for commercial satellite images of the site. After much initial fanfare, he was refused permission by the Turkish authorities, as the summit is inside a restricted military zone. The expedition was subsequently labelled a "stunt" by National Geographic News, which pointed out that the expedition leader, a Turkish academic named Ahmet Ali Arslan, had previously been accused of faking photographs of the Ark.

[brettmojo]

The ark thing might have been a hoax... But I have satellite imagery of a chair in Jordan that quite obviously looks like the work of one Jesus Christ.

[StanUpshaw]

The ark thing might have been a hoax... But I have satellite imagery of a chair in Jordan that quite obviously looks like the work of one Jesus Christ.

Bullshit. That was a hoax too.

It didn't have a back.

[TripleSkeet]

I wish more people would have open minds about things.

This is the thing that bothers me the most about atheists and christians alike. Its almost not comprehensible the amount of arrogance it takes for a person to truly believe he KNOWS EXACTLY how the universe was formed.

[StanUpshaw]

This is the thing that bothers me the most about atheists and christians alike. Its almost not comprehensible the amount of arrogance it takes for a person to truly believe he KNOWS EXACTLY how the universe was formed.

Show me an "atheist" that actually says that. When you get past the bluster, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who will actually claim they know the unknowable.

[Dirtbag]

Show me an "atheist" that actually says that. When you get past the bluster, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who will actually claim they know the unknowable.

He may have never come right out and stated it like that, but I think Bill Maher is the type of person TS is talking about. I'm not religious at all and the way Maher talks about religious people makes me sick.

[StanUpshaw]

Bill Maher is an asshole, but it's not limited to -- nor attributable to -- his atheism.

[BigRigRichard]

Hey bob impact, where did you get your quote? I've been looking for it but can't find anything anywhere that talks about it being a hoax.I'm very intrigued.

You are correct Hanso, there should be no strife over stupid things as this. It's throughout the bible about evolving. Take the serpent as example, being cast down upon his belly so that him and his species would continue eating the dust of the ground for punishment. Religion doesn't want to face that. They are just as bad about wanting people to believe EXACTLY as they do, just like some others who want everyone to give up faith in GOD entirely. Scientist prove everyday what God did and how he did it, its fantastic to understand things better than they did over 50,000 years ago.

That's why I stated that we should all have open minds. The people who think we've been here for only 5,000 years or so should read 2 Chronicles, Matthew, and Luke. These books cover the genealogy of man from Adam to Jesus and when added, it reveals 75,000 years. Thats just simple math using the bible. And don't get me started about Adam and Eve being the only two people on the Earth. The bible says they were the FIRST, not the only ones. Genesis chapter 4 talks about Cain having to leave home and was marked so no one else wou;d harm him. That means other people were inhabiting the Earth BESIDES just Adam and Eve.

Now I'm just ranting. Can't wait to see what quotes people use to bash me now. I really don't like this ...I'm begininng to LOVE IT!!! Maybe we should start a rant about the country music hall of fame as well. Why is Ray Stevnes not in the CMHOF? He has done more for comedy and country music than anyone else I know. Your thoughts...


:huh:

[StanUpshaw]

Hey bob impact, where did you get your quote? I've been looking for it but can't find anything anywhere that talks about it being a hoax.I'm very intrigued.

You know wikipedia has way more articles on it than just yours, right?

[hanso]

I won't bash you BRR, you did give an example. More then I expected although nothing I see as Evo. More on the lines of fable. Which most all of it is. And it is very much open for individual interpretation on top of that.




http://i.imgur.com/jQNO3.jpg

[cougarjake13]

my only question is

in the times that the bible was written and written about god and jesus and holy spirit were showing up constantly


now ? not so much

[StanUpshaw]

I see miracles all around me.

[TripleSkeet]

Show me an "atheist" that actually says that. When you get past the bluster, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who will actually claim they know the unknowable.

No they dont claim to know how the universe was formed, they just laugh condescendingly at anyone that believes in a higher power. Its the same thing. If someone says "I believe the universe was formed by God." They laugh at how utterly impossible it could be....yet they dont know if thats true or not.

Again, this isnt all atheists, just some. As you ignored in my previous statement, I also included Christians to that list as well. Not all Christians. Just the ones that are so positively sure that the universe was created by God exactly how it states in the Bible and that any other idea that may suggest otherwise cannot possbly be right.

Theres no having discussions with these people. Because their arrogance makes it impossible to have a conversation that doesnt end with "Youre right, Im wrong." Its fucking annoying.

[TripleSkeet]

I see miracles all around me.

I do see miracles. Personally, when a guy jumps out of a plane, and his chute doesnt open, and somehow he lives? To me thats a miracle. When a peron breaks their neck and is told they will never walk again, yet through will and determination and hard work somehow prove the doctors wrong? To me thats a miracle. When Justice makes a point and is actually correct...to me thats a miracle.

[Bob Impact]

I do see miracles. Personally, when a guy jumps out of a plane, and his chute doesnt open, and somehow he lives? To me thats a miracle.

Physics.

When a peron breaks their neck and is told they will never walk again, yet through will and determination and hard work somehow prove the doctors wrong? To me thats a miracle.
Medical science.
When Justice makes a point and is actually correct...to me thats a miracle.

Uhm, I'll get back to you on this one.

[Bob Impact]

Hey bob impact, where did you get your quote? I've been looking for it but can't find anything anywhere that talks about it being a hoax.I'm very intrigued.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Searches_for_Noah's_Ark#Modern_Searches_.281949_to _present.29

Edit: I also don't buy that you've been looking, the VERY FIRST link if you search for Daniel McGivern is this http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/09/0920_040920_noahs_ark.html

[StanUpshaw]

No they dont claim to know how the universe was formed, they just laugh condescendingly at anyone that believes in a higher power. Its the same thing. If someone says "I believe the universe was formed by God." They laugh at how utterly impossible it could be....yet they dont know if thats true or not.

Again, this isnt all atheists, just some. As you ignored in my previous statement, I also included Christians to that list as well. Not all Christians. Just the ones that are so positively sure that the universe was created by God exactly how it states in the Bible and that any other idea that may suggest otherwise cannot possbly be right.

Theres no having discussions with these people. Because their arrogance makes it impossible to have a conversation that doesnt end with "Youre right, Im wrong." Its fucking annoying.

It depends what you're discussing.

If it's a topic where facts, reason and logic actually matter, then it's right and proper to shit upon someone bringing up the supernatural.

If you're talking about the supernatural, then facts, reason and logic have no place, and everyone should pull the sticks out of their asses.

[BigRigRichard]

Edit: I also don't buy that you've been looking, the VERY FIRST link if you search for Daniel McGivern is this http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/09/0920_040920_noahs_ark.html

This link only talks about how Arslan had done a doc in 1993 that turned out to be a hoax. The only thing about McGivern is that when "experts were asked they were skeptical". What experts were asked? It doesn't give names or and credtiability so really that is just one word against someone elses word.

The link did however say that most geologist agree that the Earth could have been covered by water about 12,000 years ago.

So I guess thats one for me and one for you. Maybe we should just leave it as a draw for now.

:surrender:

[underdog]

From Missouri, loves Country Music, loves Jesus, doesn't care about facts.

Man, some people really do break stereotypes.

[BigRigRichard]

doesn't care about facts.

Still waiting for the facts. I would rather believe that God created everything and be done with it than to believe some star sneezed and look for more. All in all, still no facts either way.

[booster11373]

Still waiting for the facts. I would rather believe that God created everything and be done with it than to believe some star sneezed and look for more. All in all, still no facts either way.

Who created God?

[Bob Impact]

This link only talks about how Arslan had done a doc in 1993 that turned out to be a hoax. The only thing about McGivern is that when "experts were asked they were skeptical". What experts were asked? It doesn't give names or and credtiability so really that is just one word against someone elses word.

The link did however say that most geologist agree that the Earth could have been covered by water about 12,000 years ago.

So I guess thats one for me and one for you. Maybe we should just leave it as a draw for now.

:surrender:

Some archaeologists charge that Noah's-ark expeditions like McGivern's are nothing but wild-goose chases. Even if the ark existed, these scholars argue, it is unlikely that the wood from the boat would still be preserved today, thousands of years later. Moving ice is likely to have swept away any wooden structure, experts say.

"These expeditions are a waste of time, energy, and money—all of which could be put to much better use by supporting existing scholarly excavations around the world," said Eric Cline, a historian and archaeologist at the George Washington University in Washington, D.C.

"It's very easy to get something that looks like it's man-made [in these images]. But once you get there, it turns out to be nothing," said Lorence Collins, a retired geology professor at California State University at Northridge and an expert on photo-geology. "It's simply hopeful thinking."

Most geologists seem to agree that it would probably be impossible for a ship to make landfall at an altitude of 15,000 feet (4,570 meters). (Some explorers claim the ark is buried elsewhere, noting the Bible talks about several mountains.)

Cline, the George Washington University historian and archaeologist, calls the Noah's ark expeditions "fringe archaeology."

Those experts.

[StanUpshaw]

Who created God?

At the end we find out it's some autistic kid.

[keithy_19]

At the end we find out it's some autistic kid.

http://media.herald-dispatch.com/blog/tuned/uploaded_images/St.-Elsewhere-finale-706354.JPG

[keithy_19]

Anyone watch the Into the Universe with Stephen Hawking?

[A.J.]

Who created God?

Zeus.

[booster11373]

Who created God?

Zeus.

This guy created the Universe?

http://wrestlingepicenter.com/store/images/uploads/1zeus2.jpg

[Bob Impact]

This guy created the Universe?

http://wrestlingepicenter.com/store/images/uploads/1zeus2.jpg

The crazy eye explains a lot.

[Crispy123]

Who created God?

Bob.

http://i.acdn.us/image/A2797/279753/300_279753.jpg

[cougarjake13]

Who created God?

the chicken


or was it the egg ?

[thepaulo]

passing along some thoughts.
The main point is that these arguments are so far above us and so endlessly complex that it is arrogant to assume we can know anything. It is simply impossible to prove that God (whatever or whoever that might be) does not exist.



The Bible makes it clear in many places that God is outside of time. He is eternal, with no beginning or end—He is infinite! He also knows all things, being infinitely intelligent.1

Is this logical? Can modern science allow for such a notion? And how could you recognize the evidence for an intelligent Creator?

The existence of God is taken for granted in the Bible.

There is nowhere any argument to prove it. He who disbelieves this truth is spoken of as one devoid of understanding (Psalm 14:1).

The arguments generally adduced by theologians in proof of God's existence are:

The a priori argument, which is the testimony afforded by reason.

The a posteriori argument, by which we proceed logically from the facts of experience to causes. These arguments are:

The cosmological, by which it is proved that there must be a First Cause of all things, for every effect must have a cause.

The teleological, or the argument from design. We see everywhere the operations of an intelligent Cause in nature.

The moral argument, called also the anthropological argument, based on the moral consciousness and the history of mankind, which exhibits a moral order and purpose which can only be explained on the supposition of the existence of God. Conscience and human history testify that “verily there is a God that judgeth in the earth.”

Matthew G. EastonHow to recognize intelligence

Scientists get excited about finding stone tools in a cave because these speak of intelligence—a tool maker. They could not have designed themselves. Neither would anyone believe that the carved Presidents' heads on Mt. Rushmore were the product of millions of years of chance erosion. We can recognize design—the evidence of the outworkings of intelligence—in the man-made objects all around us.

Similarly, in William Paley's famous argument, a watch implies a watchmaker.2 Today, however, a large proportion of people, including many leading scientists, believe that all plants and animals, including the incredibly complex brains of the people who make watches, motor cars, etc., were not designed by an intelligent God but rather came from an unintelligent evolutionary process. But is this a defensible position?

Design in living things

Molecular biologist Dr. Michael Denton, writing as an agnostic, concluded:

'Alongside the level of ingenuity and complexity exhibited by the molecular machinery of life, even our most advanced [twentieth century technology appears] clumsy. . . . It would be an illusion to think that what we are aware of at present is any more than a fraction of the full extent of biological design. In practically every field of fundamental biological research ever-increasing levels of design and complexity are being revealed at an ever-accelerating rate.'3

The world-renowned crusader for Darwinism and atheism, Prof. Richard Dawkins, states:

'We have seen that living things are too improbable and too beautifully “designed” to have come into existence by chance.'4

Thus, even the most ardent atheist concedes that design is all around us. To a Christian, the design we see all around us is totally consistent with the Bible's explanation that God created all.

However, evolutionists like Dawkins reject the idea of a Designer. He comments (emphasis added):


'All appearance to the contrary, the only watchmaker in nature is the blind forces of physics, albeit deployed in a very special way. A true watchmaker has foresight: he designs his cogs and springs, and plans their interconnections, with future purpose in his mind's eye. Natural selection, the blind, unconscious, automatic process which Darwin discovered, and which we now know is the explanation for the existence and apparently purposeful form of all life, has no purpose in mind… It has no mind… It does not plan for the future… it is the blind watchmaker.'5

Selection and design

Life is built on information, contained in that molecule of heredity, DNA. Dawkins believes that natural selection6 and mutations (blind, purposeless copying mistakes in this DNA) together provide the mechanism for producing the vast amounts of information responsible for the design in living things.7

Natural selection is a logical process that can be observed. However, selection can only operate on the information already contained in genes—it does not produce new information. Actually

[Bob Impact]

Two things Paul:
1) The only order you know is the order that man (scientists) have defined for you.
2) The a posteriori argument, by which we proceed logically from the facts of experience to causes. These arguments are:

The cosmological, by which it is proved that there must be a First Cause of all things, for every effect must have a cause.

The teleological, or the argument from design. We see everywhere the operations of an intelligent Cause in nature.

Those are NOT a posteriori arguments.

[thepaulo]

Two things Paul:
1) The only order you know is the order that man (scientists) have defined for you.
2)

Those are NOT a posteriori arguments.

1) by order I assume mean laws as in Laws of physics. They seem to apply in this dinky little universe but probably not in the endless other universes.
2) You might be quibbling.
A posteriori knowledge is knowledge that we can have only after we have certain experiences. We have to make some observations to gain such knowledge. (We can’t just reflect from the armchair, we have to go out in the world and see how things actually are.)
Examples: "There is a cup on this table", "Smoking causes cancer."

[Bob Impact]

1) by order I assume mean laws as in Laws of physics. They seem to apply in this dinky little universe but probably not in the endless other universes.
2) You might be quibbling.
A posteriori knowledge is knowledge that we can have only after we have certain experiences. We have to make some observations to gain such knowledge. (We can’t just reflect from the armchair, we have to go out in the world and see how things actually are.)
Examples: "There is a cup on this table", "Smoking causes cancer."

You're right, I am quibbling. I actually considered editing the post right after I hit send but I got distracted by how goofy the word "posteriori" is.

[StanUpshaw]

1) by order I assume mean laws as in Laws of physics. They seem to apply in this dinky little universe but probably not in the endless other universes.

Again, the only reason the idea of "other universes" has any cachet is because physicists invented them.

[Furtherman]

Again, the only reason the idea of "other universes" has any cachet is because physicists invented them.

They weren't invented. The thoery was formulated due to facts, which they see more and more over the years.

Astronomers Find First Evidence Of Other Universes (http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/26132/)

[hanso]

Anyone watch the Into the Universe with Stephen Hawking?

I liked it for awhile MC Hawking is better.

<object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TGNRYNdVT7g?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TGNRYNdVT7g?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="390" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>




http://i.imgur.com/3bxOZ.gif

[hanso]

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[BigRigRichard]

Those experts.

Test data was generated by naval architects and structural engineers at the world class ship design and research center KRISO (formerly KORDI) in Korea. The comparative study focused on the Biblical proportions and demonstrated the superior choice of length, breadth and depth. Through scale model tests, computer analysis and calculations using shipping rules the capability of the Biblical ark was claimed to be structurally adequate for 30m waves. (Significant wave height).

I guess this group of experts don’t count?


A design architect for Carnival Cruise Lines, Joe Farcus has designed 16 ships completely, seven ships partially and now has eight ships, in various stages, on the drawing boards. Most designed after his vision of Noah’s Ark from biblical record. The Carnival Destiny is 892 ft long, the Oasis of the Seas (currently the largest cruise ship in the world) weighs 222,900 gross tons and is 1,184 feet long. Columbus's ship, the Santa Maria, was about 100ft long and Noah's Ark was about 500 ft long.

WOW! This guy models his stuff from the ark and is a respected architect. Very interesting. Will be waiting for your reply.

[BigRigRichard]

Who created God?

God didn't need to be created. He is the creator of all that we know and don't know. God didn't need to be created because he exists outside of time where cause and effect do not operate.

Now Jesus on the other hand was born an Earthly birth and is recorded so in the New Testament and it is rumored that earlier documents exist in the Vatican catacombs. In 2002 a limestone box was found bearing the mark "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" and is still being studied at the University of Paris.

I'm sure you'll discredit this too.

:bye:

[StanUpshaw]

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/BS5vid4GkEY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/istxUVBZD2s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/uvprBLhJx_o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[StanUpshaw]

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/YKdfeP1sGIg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/l6_o1GxgNMQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/xzDYVFa1TR0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/7aGEXMyFWyg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[hanso]

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And he has said much more.


Bunch of lying 2 faced hypocrites.Who are embedded in our politics. Being a hindrance to economic, health, science and many other aspects of what would be progress.

[StanUpshaw]

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ttnU8Tbwtd0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/lw80oduQckM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Sui4CadfhDM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[StanUpshaw]

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/loPHYsLHb5Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kWdvuSUMipM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/inES_eAexN8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[StanUpshaw]

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/UnC7Nwqw5Dg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/NiNGK3y5Ypg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/sxtbcOEtpoE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[StanUpshaw]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntEE9Zy-qQQ

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/a0pjFr_vS5U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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<iframe width="853" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VpL1dmfVoGA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[StanUpshaw]

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/yqB4FOlCtls" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/tysZObbs4Yo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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<iframe width="853" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/By17QNKQQ44" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[StanUpshaw]

You're welcome.

[hanso]

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God listens to Black Sabbath

[cougarjake13]

wow too many videos to watch

[Bob Impact]

I guess this group of experts don’t count?




WOW! This guy models his stuff from the ark and is a respected architect. Very interesting. Will be waiting for your reply.

Neither one of those things has a thing to do with the ark still being on top of a mountain somewhere.

If you choose to believe that a man who lived to be 950 years old built a boat and put two of each animal on it while maintaining an environment that was safe and sanitary enough to not lose a single animal that's your business.

[hanso]

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http://i.imgur.com/cJIDz.gif (http://imgur.com/cJIDz)

[cougarjake13]

http://i.imgur.com/cJIDz.gif (http://imgur.com/cJIDz)

bout halfway through looks like gollum

[Judge Smails]

http://i.imgur.com/Gwdw5.jpg

[hanso]

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This is more like it

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Let us prey.

[cougarjake13]

Let us prey.

Freudian slip ?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Cutting peoples hearts out and tossing their bodies down a pyramid didnt save the Aztecs and other Pre Columbian civilizations from being taken over.


Religious fanatics have always existed

[hanso]

Cutting peoples hearts out and tossing their bodies down a pyramid didnt save the Aztecs and other Pre Columbian civilizations from being taken over.


Religious fanatics have always existed

So why such a long calendar then?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

No ashes on my head today. On Friday Im gonna be grillin me some steaks

[BigRigRichard]

if anyone has a kindle, check this out! it will blow your mind.

http://www.amazon.com/Something-to-Believe-In-ebook/dp/B006XGKH9E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1330835018&sr=8-1

its free for prime members and will soon be on itunes.com for your apple products

:bye:

[StanUpshaw]

Hook us up with a pdf or something

[IamFogHat]

Hook us up with a pdf or something

Or supthin....Oh Chip

[booster11373]

So it uses the bible to prove the bible is correct? why my mind is blown.............oh wait its not

[hanso]

So it uses the bible to prove the bible is correct? why my mind is blown.............oh wait its not

And science...

Science!

[BigRigRichard]

actually no booster. its a whole new way of thinking.

i started this by thinking it would be a simpliar way to read the bible. its huge and no one has time to read thru it , however, the more i researched the more i realized religion is belief in doctrine not the bible. religion is everyone believeing everything exactly the way someone points it out to them, not their own opinion. this book is just another way of looking at things and not partaking in religion itself, but just belief in something.

i think you'll like it. should be available on itunes and barnes and noble before long

(hope its not as long as my other one was)

[Crispy123]

actually no booster. its a whole new way of thinking.

i started this by thinking it would be a simpliar way to read the bible. its huge and no one has time to read thru it , however, the more i researched the more i realized religion is belief in doctrine not the bible. religion is everyone believeing everything exactly the way someone points it out to them, not their own opinion. this book is just another way of looking at things and not partaking in religion itself, but just belief in something.

i think you'll like it. should be available on itunes and barnes and noble before long

(hope its not as long as my other one was)

Yea but the Bible is made up of texts and canon that were selected and edited by the leaders and members of those religions. So if you believe the Bible and not the religion, wouldn't that kind of make you a moron?

[hanso]

A very long game of telephone.

[BigRigRichard]

So if you believe the Bible and not the religion, wouldn't that kind of make you a moron?

thats not what i'm sayong at all. i'm saying some religions dont take the whole thing into perspective so i've given a more easier way of understanding.

[booster11373]

thats not what i'm sayong at all. i'm saying some religions dont take the whole thing into perspective so i've given a more easier way of understanding.

What perspective? What evidence?

[CountryBob]

Being raised in a Baptist environment - I have drank the koolaid.

But as I get older and hopefully wiser, I am leaning toward the Universe ideas of religion and the energy thing.

But, it is weird. I will still turn to God or Jesus in prayer (out of habit I guess).

I just dont know anymore....

[Crispy123]

thats not what i'm sayong at all. i'm saying some religions dont take the whole thing into perspective so i've given a more easier way of understanding.

Ok. but what Im saying is that all religions don't take the whole thing into perspective...and they created the Bible.

[hanso]

Robertson: Tornadoes wouldn’t happen if people prayed

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/05/pat-robertson-tornadoes-wouldnt-happen-if-enough-people-prayed/

I would like it to be 82 Tue. with some rain get your prayer on Pat chop chop.

[booster11373]

Robertson: Tornadoes wouldn’t happen if people prayed

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/05/pat-robertson-tornadoes-wouldnt-happen-if-enough-people-prayed/

I would like it to be 82 Tue. with some rain get your prayer on Pat chop chop.

I think he just lacks perspective

[BigRigRichard]

i dont know about a pdf format, but here is an epub. it should work in adobe

http://www.lulu.com/product/ebook/something-to-believe-in/18923414?productTrackingContext=author_spotlight_1 2821032_

:innocent:

[StanUpshaw]

I was going to give it a shot. I really was.

I got to this point and had to quit

It is commonly referred to as his rib, but the scripture does not say specifically what part of the side was taken. Theory suggests it was his rib because woman have one extra rib than man.

I'm speechless.

[Crispy123]

i dont know about a pdf format, but here is an epub. it should work in adobe

http://www.lulu.com/product/ebook/something-to-believe-in/18923414?productTrackingContext=author_spotlight_1 2821032_

:innocent:

Not my cup of tea but congrats on the book buddy. It is quite an accomplishment.

[underdog]

I was going to give it a shot. I really was.

I got to this point and had to quit



I'm speechless.

Whatever do you mean? I was always told women had an extra rib. And I have to believe it.

If only there were some sort of place to research info like that, but the insides of humans are mysteries. We may never know.