John Kerry for President!

[Bama]

I almost pissed myself when I read this.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23490-2003Apr3.html

Kerry says the US needs a "regime change." The best quote though has to be:

And unlike many of his Republican critics, Senator Kerry has worn the uniform, served his country, seen combat, so he'd just as soon skip their lectures about supporting our troops."



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This message was edited by bamanation on 4-5-03 @ 1:35 AM

[TheMojoPin]

Oh, SNAAAAAAAAAAP!!!

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[ChickenHawk]

I think Senator Kerry thinks "regime change" is a fancy term for something we have here in America called an "election".

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[TheMojoPin]

I think ChickenHawk "gets jokes."

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[Teenweek]

Isn't Bush, the commander in chief. Isn't he the leader if the armed services during wartime. That's great he served his country, but now to politicize the war is a bullshit move, considering 70% of the country now is for Bush and his war with Iraq and his war on terror. And it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that as soon as this war is over and we won, the economy will skyrocket.

He can take cheap shots at Bush that is his right as an AMerican, but now is not the time.

[DarkHippie]

He can take cheap shots at Bush that is his right as an AMerican, but now is not the time
this is a self-negating comment. Which is it? is it his right as an American, or are those rights situation-sensitive?

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[HBox]

And it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that as soon as this war is over and we won, the economy will skyrocket.And it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that as soon as this war is over and we won, the economy will skyrocket.


WHA-WHA-WHAT? What obvious logic am I missing here?

[high fly]

But now to politicize the war is a bullshit move

Looks to me like the subject of the comment is the election. To politicize an election is kinda expected.
Still, it was a poor choice of words and poor timing.
I did like the Kerry camp's retorts, though.
For Bush's "service", please visit awolbush.com.
As a fine wit recently said: "He was keeping charlie out of Texas"

" and they ask me why I drink"

[high fly]

WHA-WHA-WHAT?

I think he's saying that rocket scientists make good economists, or maybe that rocket scientist school dropouts make good economists, or,....damn, I'm not sure.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Dudeman]

And it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out
that as soon as this war is over and we won, the economy
will skyrocket.

i assume that you basing this assertion on your in depth
research on the last time a Bush won a Gulf War.

[high fly]

41 kicked half ass, didn't he?!

" and they ask me why I drink"

[phixion]

the economy will skyrocket.


ill bet ya an ounce of strawberry haze if your so sure?


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drinking beers, beers, beersrolling fatties, smoking bluntswho smokes the blunts?we smoke the blunts." -Jay

[curtoid]

"But now to politicize the war is a bullshit move"

Paahhh-leeeez...this was politicized a long time ago, and all through it, by the
President and his crew, not to mention the rest of the world, and those on the left.

Yes, we will win the military war, but the real battle will be the political one and if
those in charge can't handle the critics now...well...


[KOP]

[Se7en]

POOR remarks by Kerry.

I'm not surprised many of the left-leaning folks here are jizzing themselves over his comments.

The fact is, what he did say WAS just partisan politics. Which isn't such a bad thing, really, but truth is what he said would have been far more effective if it was coming out of the mouth of....well, someone other than him. Someone who isn't planning on running for Bush's job in a couple years.

And I would be disappointed if anyone here did not think he used a poor choice of words. "Regime change"? Very poor choice of words, considering the context they are being used in reference to our actions in Iraq.

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I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.

"I was here before the oceans turned black with life, and when the deserts are white with death I will remain."
---Saint Iago

[HBox]

So because he is running for president, all of his criticizing of Bush shouldn't be trusted or just be written off as partisan? As far as I know, he is the only current candidate for 2004 that faught in a war, and I think that should mean something.

Regime change? That means nothing more or less than changing the regime, which is exactly what would happen if Bush isn't re-elected. Just becuase the Bush administration would rather say they wanted a "regime change" instead of "invasion" shouldn't mean anything.

[Se7en]

So because he is running for president, all of his criticizing of Bush shouldn't be trusted or just be written off as partisan? As far as I know, he is the only current candidate for 2004 that faught in a war, and I think that should mean something.

What he said doesn't take a great skip, leap or jump of logic to be easily construed as partisan criticism.

Like I said - if this was anyone OTHER than someone running specifically against Bush in the next election - someone who clearly has personal, political motives for criticizing any and every move that the current administration makes - than the words would have had more weight.

You can't see the partisanism? Even given the fact that Kerry voted to give Bush power to use force to remove Saddam? You don't see any duplicity here?

You know you're in trouble when Howard Dean, who's as anti-war as they come, speaks out and says that Kerry's choice of words were poor.

Regime change? That means nothing more or less than changing the regime, which is exactly what would happen if Bush isn't re-elected. Just becuase the Bush administration would rather say they wanted a "regime change" instead of "invasion" shouldn't mean anything.

Are you just being naive, or purposefully sidestepping the issue here?

Really, I'm not being mean, I really want to know.

Think about the choice of words. They were calculated, they weren't accidental.

It's all in the context. The war in Iraq is to cause a 'regime change' of who? A vicious, bloodthirsty, sociopathic tyrant.

It's NO MISTAKE AT ALL that Kerry used the same term of phrase when referring to Bush.

It was DUMB. I'll not call it unpatriotic or anti-American, but it was certainly partisan and definitely inflammatory.

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I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.

"I was here before the oceans turned black with life, and when the deserts are white with death I will remain."
---Saint Iago

This message was edited by Se7en on 4-6-03 @ 12:09 AM

[TheMojoPin]

I think I'm in the minority, but I ENOCURAGE and fully support partisan politics. I want multiple trains of thought at ALL TIMES. But that's just me.

Kerry SHOULD attack Bush for being on the other end of the political spectrum, and Bush should fight back just as hard. As much as some people seem to want, the politcal "schedule" of this country is not going on "hold" because of current events, and there's no reason that those of opposing politcal points of view shouldn't be speaking out against their opponents. Yes, these specific comments were pretty dirty and low-down, but the underlying implication is he should keep his mouth shut, period, when it comes to speaking out against Bush. He's running AGAINST the guy! There's no rule that says "you can't say anything nasty about the guy in office right now if he's in a war HE started! Just sit back and let him coast into a bonus-round extra term!" Pshaw. Show us those balls, boys. Get dirty and get DIFFERENT from each other. If you disagree with the other guy, SAY SO.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 4-6-03 @ 3:35 AM

[Bergalad]

Regime change? That means nothing more or less than changing the regime, which is exactly what would happen if Bush isn't re-elected.

We don't have regime changes here in America, we have elections. Kerry's comments were foolish and idiotic. I don't care if he served in combat or not, he shoud know better. Let's not whitewash his comments and make them less than they are. A Republican saying the same to a Dem President would elicit the same comments from me, so forget that arguement. Kerry is wrong, and it will cost him any chance at the White House forever.

[Bama]

If he keeps up comments like that I will MAKE SURE to go vote for him and do all I can to drag my sorry ass friends to the polls for him too. We need a democratic leader with some balls to challenge Bush.

He's awesome because Bush and Co. can't call him a coward or a traitor just because of his views. What in the hell will W talk about? Maybe he ought to think about this little thing called an economy.

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[Se7en]

I think I'm in the minority, but I ENOCURAGE and fully support partisan politics. I want multiple trains of thought at ALL TIMES. But that's just me.

Kerry SHOULD attack Bush for being on the other end of the political spectrum, and Bush should fight back just as hard. As much as some people seem to want, the politcal "schedule" of this country is not going on "hold" because of current events, and there's no reason that those of opposing politcal points of view shouldn't be speaking out against their opponents.

I kind of agree. Like I said in my first post in this thread, partisan politics isn't necessarily such a bad thing. But there's still an issue with what he said, and....well, look:

Yes, these specific comments were pretty dirty and low-down, but the underlying implication is he should keep his mouth shut, period, when it comes to speaking out against Bush.

Emphasis added, I hope you don't mind.

I personally don't think he should keep his mouth shut....I mean, this is the nature of the political beast. Whomever is a member of the opposing party to the party-in-charge is gonna talk shit. It's the ways it's always been.

However, I think it's pretty damn low to say specifically what he did - and it WAS a low-blow, and like I said, he knew it was meant to inflame - and then when he gets called on it, come back and say, "I was a member of the military, I fought for this country, I can speak my mind!"

He can, but if he's going to speak his mind by saying dirty shit like he did, than he deserves to get criticized for it. Even if it's a draft-dodger doing the criticizing.

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I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.

"I was here before the oceans turned black with life, and when the deserts are white with death I will remain."
---Saint Iago

[TheMojoPin]

Granted, but I think the millitary issue was pulled out because he seems like a smart man, and he know's that people attack those against Bush or the war because they "don't know what it's like for the troops"...these days, any criticizing of the president is taken as criticizing of the troops and people are automatically chastized for "not knowing what it's like to have to do a 'real job'"...it's a nonsense, diversionary type of response, and I think he just wanted to nip it in the bud.

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[curtoid]

I think the Democrats will have to a lot better than John Kerry to beat Dubya in 2004. I
just feel there has to be a moderate Governor out there somewhere that could
surprise them. Like Reagan, Clinton and even Bush 2, I think the next President will
come from the pool of Governors.

So many Democrats already seem to be giving up on '04, and looking to '08 with Hillary
(yikes! talk about continuing being divisive!) in mind. But how funny would it be if the
GOP convinces Rudy to run then - it would be the Senatorial race we never got, with
Rudy and Hillary!

Personally, I think Hillary (who has become surprisingly hawkish this last year) should
change parties and become a Republican. It would be worth it just to see all of the
right wing commentators soil themselves (I am convinced that part of their hatred and
continued obsession for Bill and Hillary all of these years is because they are secretly
longing for them).

I would keep an eye open to the states, though. So many states flipped parties in the
Governor mansions this last year, that I wouldn't be surprised to see a dark horse
(from either party) emerge. I mean, not only do we have a Democratic Governor in
Virginia, but Maryland has a Republican Governor. And you know that things are
screwy in the world when Kansas elects a Democratic Woman as their Governor!

[KOP]



This message was edited by KOP on 4-6-03 @ 1:13 PM

[TheMojoPin]

Wait...so you WANT a moderate? Ugh...better to run on some semblance of self-decision and lose than to win after selling out every legitimiate politcal belief you have to get a few more votes...

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[curtoid]

There are excellent moderates on both sides - I am simply exhausted from having such
divisive leaders that end up alienating half the country.

Maybe that's a Pollyanna wish, though.

You are right - they do wind up selling out part of who they are. Gore is an excellent
example of a true moderate who was shunned by the Greens for being too far from
the left agenda, and yet at the same time he allowed himself to be painted as a
freakish liberal caricature from the right. I would also say that the first Bush was a bit
of a moderate, however he let the far right push him around a bit. Clinton, meanwhile,
was a liberal who posed as a moderate, and somehow made it work.

I just keep thinking with 30% hard and fast on the right, and 30% hard and fast on
the left, and the 40% swing in the middle that there should be SOMEONE out there
who could bring more of the people together, but (like I said) that is more than likely a
Pollyanna dream.

[furie]

i love how kerry changed his name to appear more irish

Furie
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[LiquidCourage]

And unlike many of his Republican critics, Senator Kerry has worn the uniform, served his country, seen combat, so he'd just as soon skip their lectures about supporting our troops."

Hey, George W. Bush was defending Texas from VC!!!

[Bigden]

I think Mr. Kerry should be proud of his distinguished military service- one of only 3 SEALS to win the Congressional Medal of Honor.
The one thing I notice is the convenient timing of his "Regime change" comments. Now is the time when he will get maximum exposure for his future campaign. I think that he is over-leveraging his military background, and this will eventually run out. I mean I am a little tired of hearing (not by him) that his views are somehow more important than someone who was not a veteran. I long for the humble politicians of the greatest generation. One would have to ask to find out about the distinguished military backgrounds of someone like George Bush the Elder or Bob Dole.

[high fly]

Or George McGovern.
The striking contrast between Dumbya's "war record", which, interestingly he refuses to discuss, is a legitimate issue.
Watching the Republicans dance and dodge around the issue should be entertaining.
Dumbya's "service" apparently consisted of his wearing his leather flight jacket with all those cool-o patches on it around campus, thinking it would impress the chicks.


" and they ask me why I drink"

[Cybersoldier]

Kerry is one of the democratic candidate running for president, you would think; he would not use the word regime while trying to get the democratic nomination. I have a feeling the 2004 presidential election is going to be like the 2000 election all over again.

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[Knowledged_one]

Kerry's speech is almost verbatim the same one he has been giving for like 6 months and just has not changed it.
And the medal is no longer called the congresional medal of honor it is now merely called the medal of honor

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[shamus mcfitzy]

There are excellent moderates on both sides - I am simply exhausted from having such
divisive leaders that end up alienating half the country.


I know that I'd love to see a really liberal Democrat and really conservative Republican, just to see what the country really prefers, but alas it will never happen. Kerry shows the balls that no other Democrat is showing right now, so i can't help but support him. He's a politician, he badmouths his competition. If he had a photo of Bush with a baby dangling above his mouth, he'd show it on tv and call Bush a baby-eater. It's what politicians do.

[high fly]

KNOWLEDGED ONE-- when did they change it?

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Bama]

If he had a photo of Bush with a baby dangling above his mouth, he'd show it on tv and call Bush a baby-eater. It's what politicians do.



I wish they'd start. I'm sick and tired of everyone talking about "unity" and that stuff. If a candidate thinks Bush sucks he should say so loud and proud.

I saw John Edwards railing against John Ashcroft on C-SPAN the other day. He supports the war but still thinks Bush sucks on a bunch of different things. Good for him.



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This message was edited by bamanation on 4-8-03 @ 10:42 AM

[Knowledged_one]

Not sure when it was changed but i work w/ a bunch of ex military guys who corrected me when i made the mistake about calling it the CMH--it has something to do w/ the military not letting some elected officials determine who gets an award--less partisian politics made it easy to give the award back in the day now it is up to the president based on recommendations

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[travis151]

I live in Massachusetts and up here( probally the most Democratic state in history)Sen. Kerry was slammed by these comments. You have to understand that 95% of Democrats do not want to come out and say that Pres. Bush is doing a good job, why? Because it hurts their party. I do not truly believe that John Kerry if he was President right now would not oppose this war. I do agree if there was a Democrat in office right now 95% of Rebulicans would be against this war in Iraq. Its all about politics right now in the U.S. If this war which it already has succeeds it gives the Republican Party a huge boost, greater then the 91' Gulf War. Why? Because its about "National Security" the division in the Democratic party is as great as in 68' you have your lefties an your moderates. I can truly say that the left in the Democratic party wants this war to be a cluster fuck which its not that. It would be the only way they could gain anything out of this war. And thats a shame.

Red Sox=More Better

[TheMojoPin]

He didn't slam the war, he slammed Bush. Way to slap everything with a stinky coat of spin, Potzer.

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[Bigden]

I didn't realize that they dropped the 'Congressional" from the award-my bad. Bush is the president and the Commander and Chief- the office deserves respect. Even Clinton deserved it when he served. Kerry is a Kennedy wanabe nothing more. Oh yeah he is worth $500 million- remember he married the Heinz heir. I am sure that with that much cash he can pretty much afford to do anything he likes. He will make a run at buying the office, like the Democratic Senator from New Jersey Corizine did.

[travis151]

No spin here, Sen Kerry has been very consistent on opposes the war. Kerry said he would only back the war if the President could show evidence on Iraq. quote " I oppose to a pre-emptive strike without intelligence the have weapons of mass destruction" also "The U.S. of America should not go to war because it wants to go to war," hmmm... sounds like he opposes Our governments solution. March 26, 2003 President candidate Dean critizized Sen Kerry at a California convention because during Kerry's speech early at the convention he oppose Bush's decision on the war with Iraq. But signed resolution to Bush to give broad powers to go to war against Iraq. Seems Kerry is trying to play both sides of the fence. There is no doubt Sen. Kerry has served our country to the fulliest( he was not awarded Congressional Medal of Honor, but he did receive 3 purple hearts a Silver and Bronzes stars very impressive) Sen. Kerry could end up being Democratic Pres. candidate why? because he will claim to be a moderate like Clinton but if you follow politics he is no doubt a Liberal.

Red Sox=More Better

[high fly]

I would like to see some documentation on the Medal of Honor being changed. I don't recall ever hearing of congress turning down a reccomendation for the medal.
Anyway, I think there has been some confusion here.
Although John Kerry of Massachussetts is a gen-u-wine war hero, I recall he earned the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, and multiple Purple Hearts, I don't recall reading that he had received the Medal of Honor.
Unless I'm wrong, he's being confused with senator Bob Kerry of Nebraska.
Still, John Kerry's war record is certainly superior to George W. Bush's, who apparently was a deserter.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

He's always opposed the war. I thought you were saying that with this slam against Bush, he was slamming the war and wanting it "to be a clusterfuck."

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[TheMojoPin]

because he will claim to be a moderate like Clinton but if you follow politics he is no doubt a Liberal.

Who the hell has EVER claimed to be a moderate? God bless him if he has some hardcore politcal views...make him stick out from the pack, for once...

" I oppose to a pre-emptive strike without intelligence the have weapons of mass destruction" also "The U.S. of America should not go to war because it wants to go to war," hmmm... sounds like he opposes Our governments solution.

Good man. I wasn't really paying any attention to him before, but I'm liking him more and more. Thanks.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 4-8-03 @ 8:45 PM

[El Mudo]

Oh yeah he is worth $500 million- remember he married the Heinz heir. I am sure that with that much cash he can pretty much afford to do anything he likes.


Nope. His wife's got a pretty tight leash on that scrilla, which is why he hasn't run for Prez. before

I doubt he wins the primary tho....i think itll be Edwards...that guy sounds like Clinton Jr. when he talks to crowds..

Im also not a fan of moderates. Hell, either be one way or t'other. How can any politician be a true moderate? don't you have to stand for something?

....Garry Owen....

[TheMojoPin]

Hell, either be one way or t'other. How can any politician be a true moderate? don't you have to stand for something?

Exactly. It just kind of happens, whether they mean to or not...usually they're just watching out for their own ass, and then end up catering to the middle to try and steal the "other guy's" vote...but NOBODY has ever run on the idea of proudly declaring they were a moderate...

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[Bigden]

Thank you high fly for the correction, I was mixing up the two Kerry's. It was Bob who was the SEAL MOH winner. I don't agree with their politics, but you can't ignore either one of their service records.

[A.J.]

i love how kerry changed his name to appear more irish

I love how he changed his name all of a sudden to "John F. Kerry" to sound more like JFK.

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[TheMojoPin]

I won't fall for it until he steals DiMaggio's chick...

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 4-10-03 @ 4:05 PM

[Knowledged_one]

here is the offical word from the site:

The Medal of Honor is the highest award for valor in action against an enemy force which can be bestowed upon an individual serving in the Armed Services of the United States. Generally presented to its recipient by the President of the United States of America in the name of Congress, it is often called the Congressional Medal of Honor.

from this site: http://www.cmohs.org/medal.htm

like i said it had been called that and was changed, im not saying that politics stopped it from being awarded it was done so nothing like that would happen

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Fire meaning breathing like a dragon and it seems that im falling into a world of my own

[El Mudo]

I won't fall for it until he steals DiMaggio's chick...


I read an article on DiMaggio, and boy did he hate Kennedy's guts!! Hated Sinatra too...

....Garry Owen....