Underdstanding the Roots of 9/11 documentary..

[alexc]

Last night on Discovery Channel they had a fascinating documentary on why the Middle East is hostile to the U.S. It was narrated and written by Tom Friedman of NY Times. Basically, pointed out several reasons why this happened. Arabs feel that there is a resentment and dislike of the way U.S. supports Isreal in the Isreal/Palestine conflict. Many arabs also did not like the fact that U.S. has aided many Non democratic leaders in the Middle East. Lastly, he said that many arabs feel that they are being left behind compared to the rest of the world. Economically, the GDP of the 22 middle east arab states in total does not equal the GDP of Spain. One of the problems is that very few countries in the middle east has been able to embrace modernity .
what you guys think?

[Se7en]

Arabs feel that there is a resentment and dislike of the way U.S. supports Isreal in the Isreal/Palestine conflict.

Of course, because in the end, no matter what, it ALWAYS comes back to us supporting the Jews.

How DARE us.

Lastly, he said that many arabs feel that they are being left behind compared to the rest of the world. Economically, the GDP of the 22 middle east arab states in total does not equal the GDP of Spain.

Well, they feel that way because they ARE.

This is reason why they hate us? Because they're poor and we're not? Because most of aren't living in the "modern world"?

I'll sit back and let someone explain to me how that's our fucking fault. If you tie it in with the non-democratic leader argument, okay, maybe you have a point. Otherwise, to steal a quote, "None on us!" Don't give me any of this social responsibility bullshit about how we have a duty to economically aid all of these little 3rd world countries either.



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I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.

"I was here before the oceans turned black with life, and when the deserts are white with death I will remain."
---Saint Iago

[Se7en]

Wait, I totally forgot to include the most important point.

Assume that we can be legitimately faulted for all of those things.

That then is justification for killing 3,000 civilians?

Bullshit.

<img border="0" src="http://Se7enRFNet.homestead.com/files/se7en.jpg" width="300" height="100">

I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.

"I was here before the oceans turned black with life, and when the deserts are white with death I will remain."
---Saint Iago

[LiquidCourage]

I caught the last 10 minutes of that.
It looked interesting. I saw the part at the end where the guy started flipping out about the US in that mosque.
He started screaming all this fire and brimstone stuff.
Kind of scary actually.

I know it replays next Tuesday at 8:00 pm, so I'll catch it then.

[HBox]

That then is justification for killing 3,000 civilians?


No. Its just justification enough for them to hate us. Although I am sure there are a lot of Arabs who were glad about 9/11, I think the majority of them didn't approve in the least.

[FiveB247]

I wrote this previously and I think it encompasses many of these issues and problems in the Middle East.

With US intentions of "order" and "stability" which can easily be replaced with control, the Middle East is a fire-bed of Anti-American sentiment. Iraqi sanctions, the flight of the Palestinians, Islamic tendencies and US support of Israel all empower a misled Arab realm. The military and economic backing of Israel is more of side note, when in fact more of the Arab world would be satisfied with both states in duel existence. Such notions have been reasserted via meetings, treaties and attempts at solutions. It is only the likes of fundamentalists which would breed satisfaction in the destruction of Israel. Such fundamentalists exist in each nation in the Middle East and therefore rise to the forefront of the issue. Iraq has enabled accompaniment for Arabs to associate US hatred, the movement of Palestine as well as fundamentalist thoughts all to the evils of the US and it's little lackey, Israel. Groups like Hezbollah, al Queda, etc, represent a religious outlet for such aggression, yet are the only methods of fighting back to their oppressed notions and processes. 9-11 exhibits to the US of such believes; rather that it is a cause for Arabs collaboration with various goals and attainments, rather then just hatred of the US as well as Islamic fundamentalism as a whole. By and far, the US policies in the area are unequal, interest oriented as well as hypocritical. Without future remedies and change to policies, the US is set to suffer more damaging fate such as those of 9-11.

[Bergalad]

Without future remedies and change to policies, the US is set to suffer more damaging fate such as those of 9-11.

Yeah, so let's give in to the fanatics now and stop backing Israel. Sure, let's give the terrorists what they want. More f'ing appeasement.

Right. How about we just accept that Islam is not compatable with democracy and freedom. It's not economics, it's religion. How hard is that to understand? Let me lay it out for you.

The people of Islam are caught in a catch-22. Allah says his people will rule the earth, however Muslim nations have fallen drastically in power from their heights hundreds of years ago. So if Allah says they will rule, but they don't, then either they are not serving Allah with enough fervor or Allah is wrong. Now, which one do you think Muslims think is right? This is probably disjointed due to $2 pint night, but maybe you get what I am saying.

[FiveB247]

Yeah, so let's give in to the fanatics now and stop backing Israel. Sure, let's give the terrorists what they want. More f'ing appeasement.

Right. How about we just accept that Islam is not compatable with democracy and freedom. It's not economics, it's religion. How hard is that to understand? Let me lay it out for you.

The people of Islam are caught in a catch-22. Allah says his people will rule the earth, however Muslim nations have fallen drastically in power from their heights hundreds of years ago. So if Allah says they will rule, but they don't, then either they are not serving Allah with enough fervor or Allah is wrong. Now, which one do you think Muslims think is right? This is probably disjointed due to $2 pint night, but maybe you get what I am saying.


You obviously don't grasp the understanding that fundamentalists and extremists are in the vast minority of the Muslim world.

The policy reform I'm referring to is overall change to the nations and areas in the Middle East. Not according to Islamic extremists. Regardless if peace is brought to the Middle East with an Israeli/Palestinian agreement....these fanatics would still be outraged and want to do the same things they do now. And the exact way you are stating this war/ issues is the exact way Bush, the White House and the US government is trying to avoid! They don't want to make this a war against Islam! That's what Bin Laden wants.

[Bergalad]

I am beginning to think it should be against Islam. I was hearing reports yesterday about Palestinians renaming streets "Paris" and "Baghdad" in Bethlehem. They also are naming newborn children "Saddam" and celebrate in the streets at every report of coalition casualties. I don't have a link for those, but will look for it. These aren't extremists, they are regular Palestinians. It's difficult to separate the radicals from the normal people when their religion calls on them to be fanatical and murder those who are not of their religion.

[FiveB247]

I am beginning to think it should be against Islam.

So basically you want to follow the mindset of Bin Laden and go into a holy war? Nice Head Deek!

Do me a favor...would you please share some of the crack you're smoking with others on the board. It's only fair to share.

[TheMojoPin]

I'm somewhat with Berg on this...I'm highly skeptical that what we consider to be an acceptable form of "democracy" can work alongside hardline Islamic beliefs. I have a feeling this is going to get VERY ugly...

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[HBox]

Frankly, I don't give a shit what kind of government they have as long as they leave us alone. I really don't see how Middle Eastern Democracies are going to help us when all the people hate us.

I really don't know how to solve the the problem at large, but I do know that invading and occupying one of the countries will only make them hate us more.

[Bergalad]

Do me a favor...would you please share some of the crack you're smoking with others on the board. It's only fair to share.

Oh you wound me so...

[DarkHippie]

Right. How about we just accept that Islam is not compatable with democracy and freedom. It's not economics, it's religion. How hard is that to understand? Let me lay it out for you.
I wouldn't necessarily say "incompatible" but it will take work to make them mesh.

i actually studied the development of Islam in college (I was almost a double creative writing/history major). it comes more from the culture rather than the religion (Islam translated means "he who submits [to God]"). The culture was always tribal based (do to the isolation of the desert), around one leader. the religion basically kept this form (i don't want to get too deep into it). democracy runs against 1400 years of culture.

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[FiveB247]

Frankly, I don't give a shit what kind of government they have as long as they leave us alone. I really don't see how Middle Eastern Democracies are going to help us when all the people hate us.

The US's uneven and hypocritical policies in the entire Middle East region accompanied by our dire support of Israel without truly trying to help create a peace all are factors in the anti-american beliefs.
I also don't seem to recall Middle East troops in the seas and bases around the US either. We aren't wanted there and we continue to make our present known and felt (whether good, bad or indifferent). It's not a fact of them leaving us alone....it's a matter of the US making serious strides to help create peace and stability along with even policy amongst the many nations we now pick and choose to support or consider enemies.

[high fly]

You obviously don't grasp the understanding that fundamentalists and extremists are in the vast minority of the muslim world

How small a minority? Go ahead, take a guess and do the math------what percent of 1.2 b-b-b-billion muslims are extremists?

" and they ask me why I drink"

[high fly]

As for understanding the roots of 9-11, it goes much deeper than our support of Israel or thepresence of our military to protect our supply line of oil.
Were those things not to exist, 9-11 would still have happened.
Bin Laden and others want to impose worldwide the sharia law and have all nations submit to their version of Islam.They view not just our policies in the Mideast as an impediment, but our very culture. In their eyes, our western culture is a mortal threat to them.
They divide the world into two parts---1] dar al islam --"the land of submission".This is the land that has submitted to the rule of Allah . If you'll check out Bin Laden's 1996 declaration of war on the US and other writings, you'll find that his plan's first goals include not just pushing us out of the Gulf, but replacing all of the governments there with those with his view of Islam. To push us out and cut support for Israel, he will work with them, and has.
He also plans on establishing a caliphate in Saudi Arabia.
His longer term plans involve further attacks on the other part of the world which is ---- dar al harb---"the land of war". Regardless of our policies in the Mideast, we still exist in the land of war. All attacks in "the land of war" are justified in order to bring them into "the land of submission".
Bin Laden and others intend to acquire nuclear, chemical and biological weapons to use against us.
Regardless of our Mideast policies, they will obtain and use these weapons against us.


" and they ask me why I drink"

[The Jays]

I also don't seem to recall Middle East troops in the seas and bases around the US either.


Please explain what this means.

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[high fly]

He means the Iraqi army is no longer in Cuba.
The Syrian navy no longer operates out of the Bahamas.
The Iranian air force has pulled out of Barbados.
It was all done on the sly and some people don't know it.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[FiveB247]

I also don't seem to recall Middle East troops in the seas and bases around the US either.

It means we have presence and influence somewhere we are obviously not wanted. People have projected that the Middle East is directly having some impact on what happens on US soil. And I'm not referring to 9-11...cause they've hated or disliked the US a long time before that. We have troops, bases, ships, military and not to mention extremely uneven policies regarding the various countries of that region. We are in the Middle East as our own policies and choices. Not the other way around.