Shame on some of you.

[The Blowhard]

Okay, so you hate Bush, you think the war is wrong. Free speech, democracy, blah blah blah. It's time that some of you get your fucking head out of your asses and have a reality check.
a)Most of you never had a job, had to pay bills and live in comfort. Most of the troops overseas are from middle and low income families and are fighting to keep your "video game playing music downloading Phish listening spoiled brat Mountain Dew drinking pathetic asses" SAFE! Protest and dissent are as American as apple pie but accusing the government of being evil and trashing the troops: that's assholism, plain and simple.
Read a history book. Talk to your parents or grandparents about WWII. WE ALL PULLED TOGETHER!
You are entitled to your opinions but please, spare us the self righteous bullshit. Men and women in the military are risking life and limb keeping ALL OF US SAFE. DEAL WITH IT.
Check yourselves. Thank you.
Now praise the lord and pass the ammunition.

[TheMojoPin]

Wait, wait, wait. I live on my own, pay my own bills, hate Phish AND have a good four shelves filled with history books (And another entire bookcase filled with books on current events from the last decade)...can I get a hall pass?

And the anti-war movement during WW2 in America was nearly three million strong. Luckily, they turned out to be wrong. Hopefully those of us against the war today will be proven wrong as well. But until then, it's none of anyone's goddamn business what our opinions are. There's a difference between forcing your opinions on others (By causing public disturbances and damage, which is wrong), and simply making up your OWN mind based on what you see, hear and read. I'm going to choose the latter, tankyooveddyMUCH.

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[The Blowhard]

And the anti-war movement during WW2 in America was nearly three million strong


True, most were Isolationists who were opposed to any action in Europe. That was until Pearl Harbor. Damn, we were rationing stuff in those days, and a HUGE majority supported FDR and the war effort.
Did you know that the American Nazi Party held a rally in Madison Square Garden before we got involved?
Along with the Rangers and Knicks, MORE losers at MSG.

[A.J.]

http://www.collectinghollywood.com/CRober2.jpg

<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/ajdcsig.jpg">

A Skidmark production.

99-44/100%

[TheMojoPin]

<img src=http://www.ghg.net/higheagl/tonto.gif>

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2% << FREE YERDADDY! >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

True, most were Isolationists who were opposed to any action in Europe. That was until Pearl Harbor.

Like I said, they turned out to be wrong. And like I said, all the better if I and my ilk turn out to be just as wrong today. But until that's the case, tough ta-ta's.

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2% << FREE YERDADDY! >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[LatinSpiceXoX]

People really drink that stuff?
<img src="http://www.mountaindew.com/images/banners/bug_dothedew.gif">

"The Chewing Gum-Popper <a href="http://hometown.aol.com/latinspicexox/Latin.html">CHICK!</a>"
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<b>Guilty of sending FMJEFF spam mail.</b>

[The Blowhard]

Heckler you should get your head out of your ass and
look yourself in the mirror and realize your just an
angry racist man.



Londanders, the new "Manchurian Candidate".
So young, so indoctrinated.
And as for me being racist: Damn the Swedes!

[TheMojoPin]

Only if they're X-TREMELY RADICAL TO THE MAXXX, LIMP BIZKIT-STYLEE.

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[Mxyzptlk]

Okay, so you hate Bush, you think the war is wrong. Free speech, democracy, blah blah blah.


I don't think war is wrong, but it should only be waged for the right reasons. I don't think we are fighting the 'war' for the right reasons.

Most of the troops overseas are from middle and low income families and are fighting to keep your "video game playing music downloading Phish listening spoiled brat Mountain Dew drinking pathetic asses" SAFE!


I agree! Those troops (although not fighting) are stationed in South Korea. I view North Korea to be much greater threat to the US than Iraq, but thats another story.

but accusing the government of being evil and trashing the troops: that's assholism, plain and simple.


Most of the world is displaying this type of sentiment, but who is displaying that here in the US?



<IMG SRC="http://209.15.12.10/Trailer/images/franko004.jpg" width="300" height="100">

[LatinSpiceXoX]

Praise the Lord!

"The Chewing Gum-Popper <a href="http://hometown.aol.com/latinspicexox/Latin.html">CHICK!</a>"
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<b>Guilty of sending FMJEFF spam mail.</b>

[reeshy]

Hi Spicey,
Where were you? I heard you were missing!! What were you missing? Were you really in Thailand importing brides for some of the guys on the board?

<IMG SRC=http://www.foxnews.com/projects/photo_essay/iraq_shock_awe/photos/5.jpg>
HEY GI!! YOU GOT ANY VAN HALEN???

[DarkHippie]

I'm not bothered but what you say. You have a point. But the backlash against these protests will never be as bad as the ones against the protestor who came before us: Those who fell trying to unionize America, trying to end Jim Crow and bring us true Civil rights, those trying to end an unjust war in Vietnam. Do you call shame on them? contrary to what you think, the protestors are not just a bunch of priveldged college students, but people from all walks of life, and all ages. there is a harsh spilt in America over this war. Accept it.

<IMG SRC=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/darkhippie2.gif>
<i>LABELS ARE FOR PRODUCTS, NOT PEOPLE! DON'T HUG A TREE, PLANT ONE!
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[LatinSpiceXoX]

Hi Spicey,
Where were you? I heard you were missing!! What were you missing? Were you really in Thailand importing brides for some of the guys on the board?
Don't worry REESHY, I found her just like you asked..
...Brown Eyes, Dark Hair and BIG NICE SMILE!!

<img src="http://64.227.72.145/photo/thumbs/l/s_lv3822.jpg">
Her name is Larisa.. enjoy! :)

"The Chewing Gum-Popper <a href="http://hometown.aol.com/latinspicexox/Latin.html">CHICK!</a>"
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<b>Guilty of sending FMJEFF spam mail.</b>

[LatinSpiceXoX]

Don't worry MOJOPin, I didn't forget you either..
.. here's your BRIDE ..(of Frankenstein)..*evil laugh*

<img src="http://64.227.72.145/photo/g/gs6722.jpg">

"The Chewing Gum-Popper <a href="http://hometown.aol.com/latinspicexox/Latin.html">CHICK!</a>"
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<b>Guilty of sending FMJEFF spam mail.</b>

[reeshy]

Hubba-Hubba!!!! Here's the twenty I owe ya!!!

<IMG SRC=http://www.foxnews.com/projects/photo_essay/iraq_shock_awe/photos/5.jpg>
HEY GI!! YOU GOT ANY VAN HALEN???

[LatinSpiceXoX]

20?!! That bitch was priced at eleventy-hundred dollars!

But look what I got for 12 bux...
<img src="http://64.227.72.145/photo/y/yb5280a.jpg">
...Yup!! The Nanny!!
:)

"The Chewing Gum-Popper <a href="http://hometown.aol.com/latinspicexox/Latin.html">CHICK!</a>"
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<b>Guilty of sending FMJEFF spam mail.</b>

[ChickenHawk]

Can someone in command please put "londonanders" on Extended Vacation for reaching new levels of retardism?

<IMG SRC="http://homepage.mac.com/fathernoel/.Pictures/parodysig.gif">
SIG CURRENTLY STUNTING * NEW SIG COMING THIS SPRING

[DarkHippie]

Can someone in command please put "londonanders" on Extended Vacation for reaching new levels of retardism?
c'mon hawk, if we were doing that, you know there'd be like 6 people still able to post on the politics forum, lord knows I probably would've been banned trying to explain to everyone what the anti-wto protests were about last year.

<IMG SRC=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/darkhippie2.gif>
<i>LABELS ARE FOR PRODUCTS, NOT PEOPLE! DON'T HUG A TREE, PLANT ONE!
</i><a href=http://www.freeopendiary.com/entrylist.asp?authorcode=A537085>Gonads and Strife: a journal</a>

[schmega]

ouch, heck. i play games and download different varieties of media, but i'm totally not the other stuff man. i'm the model underachiever and thankful i live in a country that wont whip me for it, and thankful someone's fighting to allow me to continue living this way, and fighting so that one day an iraqi can live like me. this is the greatest country in the world, and though we're not perfect, we're the LEAST IMPERFECT.

i love the swedes. they've given me the pleasure of listening to 2 great bands in the past year. its the finns i cant stand. where do they get the nerve to come out with their brand of SWISS CHEESE? honestly.

[LatinSpiceXoX]

"SWISS"???
Coming right up..

<img src="http://64.227.72.145/photo/v/vj6061.jpg">

"The Chewing Gum-Popper <a href="http://hometown.aol.com/latinspicexox/Latin.html">CHICK!</a>"
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<b>Guilty of sending FMJEFF spam mail.</b>

[Doogie]

I'm not bothered but what you say. You have a point. But the backlash against these protests will never be as bad as the ones against the protestor who came before us: Those who fell trying to unionize America, trying to end Jim Crow and bring us true Civil rights, those trying to end an unjust war in Vietnam. Do you call shame on them?

Craig, that is apples and oranges...Those were good and just causes to portest for. Hell I always support when workers strike against management, including Baseball players (that is a side topic that I am more than willing to get into with anyone over a pint or two). Even the people during the Vietnam Era had a legitimate gripe cause there were men dying half way around the world for a country that we never even declared war on. Those people did have a right to protest in my mind.

Dont forget people there are two very prominent figures from the NY skyline mssing and it was due to terrorism. Terrorism that is supported by many nations/leaders in the mid-east, including Saddam Hussein. This is a 'right' and 'legal' war. I personally feel that people are protesting for the sake of protesting without any rel knowledge. They see what the previous generation did and think they can do the same. Please people I beg and implore you to not forget that our way of living were attacked. And if this is one more nitch to prevent that from happening again then 'sie la vie'.

One a more personal side note: Londonanders, I dont think it is neccesary to call names towards one another. And I respect you and know that you didnt have to resort to those tactics. Having said that, lets get a little solidarity on this board. And not nit pick our frustrations towards one another...Lets be professionals

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ADF Fan since day one...this sig rocks!!!
"Impossible is only the failure of imagination"
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[Bob Impact]

Fuck it, if no one else will...

BRAV-MOTHER-FUCKIN'-O Heck.


<center><img src="http://czm.racknine.net/images/bobimpactfog.gif"><br>
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My Head is Bloody but unbowed.
Ron and Fez live in NYC or the real nightmare begins.</center>

[DarkHippie]

Craig, that is apples and oranges...Those were good and just causes to portest for.
in other words: they were good and just because you support them. But because you don't support this, it is not a good and just cause. I'm sure this argument has been given many times before-- to those very same good and just leaders that you support.

<IMG SRC=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/darkhippie2.gif>
<i>LABELS ARE FOR PRODUCTS, NOT PEOPLE! DON'T HUG A TREE, PLANT ONE!
</i><a href=http://www.freeopendiary.com/entrylist.asp?authorcode=A537085>Gonads and Strife: a journal</a>

[Huganut]

Hopefully those of us against the war today will be proven wrong as well. But until then, it's none of anyone's goddamn business what our opinions are.


Sorry, but that sentence is funny as hell. While I support the anti-war individual's right to protest, and encourage them to do so, I get sick of hearing just that. If it's not my business what your opinion is, why are you (figurative you, mind you) spouting it off on TV every time I turn it on?

[TheMojoPin]

Sorry, but that sentence is funny as hell. While I support the anti-war individual's right to protest, and encourage them to do so, I get sick of hearing just that. If it's not my business what your opinion is, why are you (figurative you, mind you) spouting it off on TV every time I turn it on?

Ah, right, because we're forcing the cameras on us and we're holding a gun to your head in case you decide to change the channel.

You know perfectly well that I wasn't implying that it's "our opinion to keep to ourselves." That's not the point of a protest. It's "our" opinions in that we're not going to be told what to think. I for one (And this hardly applies to all protestors) don't feel the need to FORCE my opinions on other people...I just want to make them heard because I don't want people to assume things for me.

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[curtoid]

Point by point...

(a) I do hate Bush, but he's still my president - I don't want to see him my president
make the wrong decisions. If this turns out to be a just cause, then I will be happy,
but it will not erase the ill will that has been created across the world. The world is a
much more dangerous place now than it was one week ago.

(b) I don't think war is wrong - just this war. I think what has been done against Al
Queda has been brilliant.

(c) Free speech and democracy is more to me than just "blah blah blah"

(d) I am too fat to get my head in my ass

(e) I am employed and make a lot of money compared to most people, but next to
nothing compared to the standard of living in Washington

(f) I pay all of my bills; they usually run about $3000 a month

(g) I live in comfort one mile from the Pentagon

(h) Most of the people opposed to the war are from middle and low income families
and are more than likely know someone who is actually serving

(i) The last video game I played was Gallaga (sp?) 20 years ago

(h) I download porn - not music

(i) Phish are Grateful Dead Lite

(j) I only drink diet drinks, and Diet Mt. Dew tasts horrible.

(k) desent proves that democracy works.

(l) how well do you know your history? How many lives have been killed in the name of
American Democracy? How many puppet dictatorships have been put into power the
last 30 years after we helped topple democratically elected governments?
Read a history book.

(m) My parents were very small children during WWII - Dad served in Korea - my
grandparents are long dead.

(n) we came into WWII only when we were forced to; we didn't go in for altruistic
reasons. Ultimately, though, America did save the world, but it was very, very close at
one time.

(o) who is the one being self-righteous??????

(p) Iraq poses NO IMMEDIATE THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!!!!!!

(q) The phrase "Praise The Lord And Pass The Ammunition" comes from a 1980s punk
song that was critical of the military.


[KOP]

[FiveB247]

Heckler...

1) I pay taxes, support myself and am intelligent enough to understand and grasp international affairs. I don't need your opinion to try and tell me what to do. You hold your beliefs as I will hold my beliefs.

2) Mountain Dew is not good.

3) Phish is ok, but jams are way too long. Trey is a great guitar player though.

4) Saying we should shut up cause we are against the war or any issue at all is ridiculous. You want to pick and choose what items that can be protested or spoken towards? Wake up and get your head out of your ass. Free speech isn't chosen to be applied to situations...it always a given!

5) The people who go to protests/ marches and cause problems do not represent the majority of those in dissent.

6) I've yet to hear anyone on this board say anything meaningfully derogatory regarding our troops. Those who choose to disagree with the war do so, yet all want safety and peace. Never any harm to our troops!

[fluffernutter]

But look what I got for 12 bux...

...Yup!! The Nanny!!

I would pay $12 for that. Nice RACK!

I do agree with Heckler with this one too. As much as I dispise Governor Bush, I accept the fact that this is being done for the right reasons. Although I have yet to see the DIRECT connection between Saddam and al-Queida (sp) I do see the potential for some of it to have been there especially with some of the harbouring of its ocupants within Iraq. I am not too sure how the Islamic Fundamentalists view the secular government (if you can call it that) Saddam ran but I don't think it jives too much. If I am wrong one of the more politically minded either the jackass or the elephant types please let me know. I know I have read some things suggesting what may come from this war as far as our own governments personal gains but that will remain to be seen until after and MOST IMPORTANTLY, the LIBERATION of the Iraqi people. That is what our goal is and I support that fully.

Like it or not, our BOYS and GIRLS of the military have been sent into this and I (WE) MUST support them no matter what. Protest if you want but DO NOT stomp on or destroy anything representing what our past generations have fought and died for our freedoms, your freedoms and my freedom to pull out the porn or bang my head or rock out at a local show or even express how I feel about things and being able to speak my own mind. The deserations of statues, government leaders home and property private or public should NOT be tolerated or even done int he first place. There are peaceful protests taking place and sadly there are violent as well. The nly other gripe I have is if you DID NOT EXCERCISE YOUR RIGHT TO VOTE I don't think you should bitch. Whenever I her someone bitch about Bush this or Bush that or even President this or President that, I ask, DID YOU VOTE? No vote = no complaining.

There, I think I am done.

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2/5 OF THE MOUSTACHE LEAUGE

170 LBS is 90 KG, METRICS can even make you THIN

[Doogie]

in other words: they were good and just because you support them. But because you don't support this, it is not a good and just cause. I'm sure this argument has been given many times before-- to those very same good and just leaders that you support.

Ok let me try this again from the top. WHen I wrote that I had my thoughts in place but was distracted by something that happened to me today and was retelling that story while typing this.

Yes those previous actions were BENEFICIAL in the long run is what I meant to say. I also meant to argue that it is ok to protest if you want. My argument is that majority of protesters (Yet not all) dont really know the reasons why they are protesting. They only know what is being handed to em by someone else. It really isnt a matter of what I support or dont support (I wasnt alive for either movements). And to say that "Cause I supported them" is a little redundant. I have never said that anti-war protests arent good and just. I did argue that a lot of em are misinformed, as are the pro-war people. There is a gray area that both sides are missing. A gray area that history itself answers.

I was trying to argue that people during the vietnam era had a more legitimate gripe for their protests. We werent attacked, we werent threatend per se, we had not declared war, we were drafting, and men were dying everyday on TV. So it did seem to many people that war did not make sense. On the other hand, this battle we are fighting now is in retalliation against what happened to an attack we did face on our own soil.

To put in more understandable terms: your neighbor and a few other neighbors conspire to murder an old woman to get back at something her daughter did. They murder her, and in the process one of the murderers gets killed too (Mofo falls on a knife in attack whatever). Does the other people involved in the conpiracy go unpunished once clues start unraveling. Of course not. Hence the same thing is sort of happening now. But that is an argument for another thread of pro-war/anti-war.

My argument is that protesting is all well and good. I was saying that not everyone is really aware of the reason they are protesting. OR has forgotten the reason we are at war. It is to protect our freedoms and our way of life. Simple. This is a fight to protect your right to protest this war. I know is the most ironic thing in the world, but that is what this fight is about. The whole argument of protesting does come down to interpretation on what we should do or shouldnt do.

I do agree with Heckler though that the time for arguing is beyond that point. We are at war now, and we should give full support to making sure that it is ended soon and that our men fighting this war come home with as few casualties as possible. You can agree/disagree with Bush to your hearts content. But lets support the troops and get this thing resolved and then get them home with the utmost expediency.

<IMG SRC=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/doogie.gif>
ADF Fan since day one...this sig rocks!!!
"Impossible is only the failure of imagination"
<marquee behavior=alternate>The Jedi Master and an incredible hound dogga</marquee>

[spoon]

i) The last video game I played was Gallaga (sp?) 20 years ago
Great game and it has been released for the both the playstation and NIN in the original form. Hence I do indeed play those dreaded video games, yet do not side with the anti-war side of things. It seems that everything must be done in a PC/lollipops and pixie sticks fashion even after these options fail and the harder one must be chosen. I believe Ron and Fez coined a great term, "The Pussification of America". We'll, it may not apply to all decisions to go to war, but it does here.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/dxixrxt/spoon2.jpg">
Nothing...i have nothing!

[FiveB247]

This is a fight to protect your right to protest this war. I know is the most ironic thing in the world, but that is what this fight is about

You are interpreting what this war is about. The US government is saying it is to remove a threat and free the people of Iraq. That has absolutely nothing to do with our right to speak our opinions. Don't combine or try to justify it by saying what it is supposed to mean. Freeing Iraq and removing Saddam has nothing whatsoever to do with what the US people can do, say or feel in their hearts.

[Doogie]

Anytime we fight a war to remove a threat it is to protect our way of life, which does break down to freedoms. That is what I meant by that statement fiveb

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ADF Fan since day one...this sig rocks!!!
"Impossible is only the failure of imagination"
<marquee behavior=alternate>The Jedi Master and an incredible hound dogga</marquee>

[FiveB247]

Once again....How do freedoms ignored in Iraq that we are trying to obtain for their people have any regard to us losing freedoms here? Obviously, the war isn't here and inherit, direct policies aren't changed in the US. We will not lose freedom's here for war elsewhere. People worry about lose of freedoms here for actions and policies that directly result here...defense towards terrorism and such. Those are two different ideas and types of polcies/ laws which result from two different actions or reactions. Not one in the same.

[spoon]

Heckler, I thought you would like to read the likes of this letter. The following post from another thread applies here. It goes as follows:
[quote]from chronwatch.com

You asked why I support the war. You wanted to understand why now, and why with Iraq rather than other, equally noxious, tyrants. In this letter, I'll try to cover what this war is about and what it isn't about.

This isn't a war about American blood for Iraqi oil. The United States and Great Britain have maintained sanctions on Iraqi oil since 1991 in the face of European and Asian opposition. If we had wanted Iraqi oil, as our oil companies have lobbied for years, we could have simply lifted sanctions and bought it.

It is a war brought about by blood for oil, however. One of the reasons Iraq poses a threat is because of its oil revenues and what they have bought and can buy. In the hands of a megalomaniacal dictator, oil revenues purchased the technology, built the infrastructure, and produced biological weapons like anthrax and smallpox and chemical weapons like VX nerve agent and mustard gas. There is blood for oil here but it is on the hands of the French and Germans who sold Saddam Hussein the technology and equipment so he could gas thousands of his own Kurdish citizens. There is blood for oil, the blood of thousands of Iranians, Kuwaitis, and Iraqi Shia Moslems who died under the treads of Hussein's tanks, and armored personnel carriers or who were machine-gunned or blown apart by attack helicopters. This blood is on the hands of the Russians and Chinese who sold him these things. To know Hussein, his methods, and goals, and to build a nuclear reactor for him, as the French did at Osirik, makes you his accomplice not just a trading partner.

He invaded Iran. He invaded Kuwait. He gassed Iranians. He gassed Kurds. On retreating from Kuwait, his army set fire to every oil well they could reach creating the greatest ecological disaster in Mid-East history. He will use every weapon in his arsenal. When he develops atomic weapons, he will use them. If he had atomic weapons now, he would use them on our troops. If we wait until he obtains them, he will use them on our troops and on his neighbors. This war is happening now, specifically because he is close to developing them. He has the means and the motive, and all he lacks is time. We cannot await this inevitability.

For all its dictatorial dysfunction, does the Middle East deserve to be under the nuclear thumb of one murdering tyrant? Do we wait for the illicit transfer of a backpack nuke to a terrorist organization who walks it into Los Angeles or New York or on a container ship coming into Oakland? Containment only works with rational governments and leaders who pay the price for their aggression. It doesn't work with stateless, suicidal Islamofacist terrorists.

This is not a threat you can see or touch now. This is frustrating for most Americans. But when you can see it or touch it, it will be too late to act. A new era was ushered in by the attacks of September 11, 2001. As you know, my wife was in Manhattan on 9/11 and watched the second plane hit the World Trade Center. She smelled the ozone and dust in the air, wondering if chemical or biological weapons were there as well. Even now, we have friends who will not go into Manhattan. How many other attacks in how many other cities must we endure? Is this the type of world we are consigned to live in? Do you want to live in a world like this? Do you want your children to live in a world like this?

Some say that North Korea is a more immediate threat. Is their motive to face one threat or avoid facing another? North Korea is an isolated, bankrupt ghost of Stalinism whose people are reducing to eating tree bark to stay alive. They will soon collapse on their own.

Some say that we must have the sanction of the United Nations. Where were these people during the Yugoslavian war, the Haitian intervention, or the Somalia debacle? Their vision ends at America's shores. Their signs and chants offer no viable alternative. They l

[Gvac]

Last night I saw something truly refreshing. A young college kid (about 19 years old) had decorated his car in red, white, and blue and had written slogans such as "God Bless America", "Support Our Troops", and "Support Our President" all over it. He also had American flags attached to the windows on either side of his car.

He told me that Monday morning there was a big war protest going on at his college and he was going to be there representing the other side.

We got to talking politics and it turns out he's a conservative who's incredibly frustrated at how liberal his professors and fellow students are. Thank God for kids like him who are willing to stand up for what they believe in, even when they are in the overwhelming minority.



http://gvac.50megs.com/images/what_price_glory_1.jpg

[Shecky]

I'm not that old, but I thought the reason protesters did the things they did was to get arrested for what they believe in, not to run away from the cops like a bunch of pussies who just wanted to cut class for the afternoon or pick up some fat hairy hippy chick.



Later On,
SHECKY

[Dudeman]

Free speech, democracy, blah blah blah

[TheMojoPin]

We got to talking politics and it turns out he's a conservative who's incredibly frustrated at how liberal his professors and fellow students are. Thank God for kids like him who are willing to stand up for what they believe in, even when they are in the overwhelming minority.

Dude, then I'm a fucking GI JOE-LEVEL HERO WITH 2,000 HP AND MAXIMUM CHARISMA. I oppose the supposed principles and half-truths under which we went to war, yet I've got three American flags on and in my car, a big American flag in my bedroom window, I'm wearing my official CTC (Counter Terrroism Center) black beanie, AND I've got TWO big, official CTC pins pin right on the back of my backpack that depict Uncle Sam reaching around the corner of the American flag to nab a terrorist (Who looks like a fat Castro...go figure) and say "Anytime. Anywhere. However Long It Takes."

I'm a fucking minority of a minority of a minority.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-23-03 @ 4:41 PM

[Death Metal Moe]

Heckler=londonanders FUCKING DADDY!

BIATCH!

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[JerryTaker]

The nly other gripe I have is if you DID NOT EXCERCISE YOUR RIGHT TO VOTE I don't think you should bitch. Whenever I her someone bitch about Bush this or Bush that or even President this or President that, I ask, DID YOU VOTE? No vote = no complaining.


Actually, this is where a lot of this anger comes from. Hell, Yeah, I voted, I voted for Gore, so did my entire state. Gore won NJ in a landslide. so did it Matter that I voted? <B>NO, NOT ONE FUCKING BIT!!!</B> my vote meant nothing, not because my candidate lost, but because NJ can't send more than the 15 or whatever votes no matter how many people vote. I think a lot of the "uninformed" protesters are protesting this war as a backlash of the last election, which hadn't occoured yet because of what happened on 9/11. We were so pissed about what another country did to us that we forgot what <B>our own </B> country did to us...

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[samnyc]

Heckler,

You're right on here. Our nation has come so far in terms in technology, science, and human rights since WWII, but the moral quality of the average American appears to have taken a nosedive.

America was so great after WWII because of the contributions of our grandparents -- many of whom were poor immigrants who had nothing when they come to the US, risked their lives at war, and proved to be extremely entrepreneurial in business and loving towards their families when they came back from war.

The radicals in the city missed the simple lessons of civility, pride, security, dedication, and compassion that this generation had to teach us.

[canofsoup15]

heres to the anti war protesters:

<img src=http://members.aol.com/canofsoup15/images/exit.gif>

<img src=http://members.aol.com/canofsoup15/images/shutthefup.jpg>

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/canofsoup15/images/final.gif>

Shit, if it's going to be that kind of a party
I'm gonna stick my dick in the mashed potatoes

[shamus mcfitzy]

Protest and dissent are as American as apple pie but accusing the government of being evil and trashing the troops: that's assholism, plain and simple.
Read a history book. Talk to your parents or grandparents about WWII. WE ALL PULLED TOGETHER!


i can't believe anyone else didn't say this, but i don't have a problem with the soldiers i have a problem with the president. Soldiers take orders, and want to fight for their country's ideals, no matter what they are. It's not for me, but whatever. And in looking back at our history, i think that some people were left out of the PULLING TOGETHER during WWII, because they were in camps on the West Coast. And during WWI, people were imprisoned because they opposed WWI. I do commend Bush somewhat for not being a tyrant, but don't think i need to share your opinion. And if Saddam attacks us, that's present tense, then you're right about connecting this to WWII.

I do agree that protesting at this point is a little stupid because it's like protesting against the results of an election. Not a close one though, a 60-40 one like the polls on the war were. The US PEOPLE want to go to war. I don't want to, but i accept the majority's decision.

This message was edited by shamus mcfitzy on 3-23-03 @ 6:23 PM

[Death Metal Moe]

voted for Gore, so did my entire state. Gore won NJ in a landslide.


HA! You're STILL complaining about that? I live in NJ too, and I'm FUCKING ASHAMED of this state for always voting Democratic.

This is one of the underlying sentiments in the Anti-War protests. They're really just Anti-Bush.

Please keep bitching about hanging chads. It's so 2 years ago.

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[JerryTaker]

Please keep bitching about hanging chads. It's so 2 years ago.


We're losing our freedoms, we're losing the things that make this country what it is. from losing our right to protest, to losing our say in elections, to having to watch what we say because of "political correctness." (yes the LIberals do it too. If you bothered to actually <I>read</I> any of my posts, you'd see that's my point.) Once you let them silence everyone else, who will be left to speak up when they come for you?

I am <I>all for</I> this war right now, because I beleive it's part of a bigger plan to sweep the funamantalists out of the middle east from within. Now I'm giving the government a <I>lot</I> of credit here, but I trust in the <B>millitary knowhow</B> of Powell and Cheney. Are they lying to us? yes. Maybe they have to, to appease the UN. Do I beleive there was a conspiracy to get bush (read: Cheney) into office? Yes! Do I beleive that if we let Bush meddle in domestic affairs while everyone is sucking his dick because of the war, that we will wake up one morning in an Orwellian nightmare? Oh, hell YES!



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[TheMojoPin]

heres to the anti war protesters

Right back at'cha, homeskillet!

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And God bless us...EVERYONE.

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[TheGameHHH]

I have a quick question......I'm a privledged college student, I download music, play a ton of video games, absolutly love Phish and I fully support this war on every single level possible. So where do I fit in?

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[Death Metal Moe]

Whoever posts the most pic wins!

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[douchebagsean]

Protest and dissent are as American as apple pie but accusing the government of being evil and trashing the troops: that's assholism, plain and simple.



amen brother

[TheMojoPin]

Protest and dissent are as American as apple pie but accusing the government of being evil and trashing the troops: that's assholism, plain and simple.

Protestors claiming that the war is "about oil" or claiming that Bush "stole the election"=red herring.

Pro-war supporters claiming that the protestors are ALL and ALWAYS "anti-America" and "automatically not supporting the troops by protesting"=red herring.

The two sides always end up being so much more similar than you think...

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[Death Metal Moe]

I wasn't serious about that canofsoup.

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[FiveB247]

http://adbusters.org/campaigns/flag/index.gif

This message was edited by FiveB247 on 3-24-03 @ 1:30 AM

[fluffernutter]

I've got three American flags on and in my car, a big American flag in my bedroom window, I'm wearing my official CTC (Counter Terrroism Center) black beanie, AND I've got TWO big, official CTC pins pin right on the back of my backpack that depict Uncle Sam reaching around the corner of the American flag to nab a terrorist (Who looks like a fat Castro...go figure)

That sir, is going into my sketchbook. I LOVE detailed descriptions about that.

heres to the anti war protesters:

Since I am seeing System Of A Down in your sig, I take it you are a fan. If not then, sorry. But are you asking them to fuck off? They are very vocal non-supporters of the war.

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[fluffernutter]

Protestors claiming that the war is "about oil" or claiming that Bush "stole the election"=red herring.

Pro-war supporters claiming that the protestors are ALL and ALWAYS "anti-America" and "automatically not supporting the troops by protesting"=red herring.

The two sides always end up being so much more similar than you think...

This is why I love America. Because we can have our own voices op opinion and the RIGHT to bitch about what we want to and try to make a change.

I MAY not agree with it, I MAY agree with it but bottom line is, it is our FREEDOM to do so.



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[TheMojoPin]

fluff for PREZ! U-S-A! U-S-A!

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[angrymissy]

I fucking hate Phish

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[FMJeff]

Okay, so you hate Bush, you think the war is wrong. Free speech, democracy, blah blah blah. It's time that some of you get your fucking head out of your asses and have a reality check.
a)Most of you never had a job, had to pay bills and live in comfort. Most of the troops overseas are from middle and low income families and are fighting to keep your "video game playing music downloading Phish listening spoiled brat Mountain Dew drinking pathetic asses" SAFE! Protest and dissent are as American as apple pie but accusing the government of being evil and trashing the troops: that's assholism, plain and simple.
Read a history book. Talk to your parents or grandparents about WWII. WE ALL PULLED TOGETHER!
You are entitled to your opinions but please, spare us the self righteous bullshit. Men and women in the military are risking life and limb keeping ALL OF US SAFE. DEAL WITH IT.
Check yourselves. Thank you.
Now praise the lord and pass the ammunition.


I don't think a person's lifestyle has any bearing on the credibility or validity of thier opinions about this war. If you don't like them, respond or ignore, but don't dismiss them as the ramblings of spoiled children. Anti-war protests are held around the world by men and women of all ages...some educated, most employed, and most have been around during Vietnam and Korea.

And this is nothing like World War II. We live in completely different times. The way we wage war is completely different. The way we report war is completely different. The threat was clear in WWII and the fight was noble. The enemy was formidable and tenacious and intent on conquering the world.

It's not so black and white this time. I don't think anyone has ever "trashed the troops" at all on this board. If you can find one quote about the troops I stand corrected and apologize, but I think you added that to enhance your arguement. I'm against war period...I see when its necessary but I'm against killing in general. One thing I would NEVER do though is condemn US soldiers for doing thier job.

I do condemn this government for waiting ten years to do what they should have done during the Gulf War. We had justification then...they invaded Kuwait...everyone supported us...now we're hated the world over.

It's going to bite us in the ass eventually.

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<br>
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This message was edited by FMJeff on 3-24-03 @ 4:44 PM

[furie]

to keep your "video game playing music downloading Phish listening spoiled brat Mountain Dew drinking pathetic asses" SAFE!


i don't listen to Phish

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[Doogie]

I found this article interesting for the fact that it points out the moronic nature of celebrities, and why their propoganda just doesnt add up...

http://www.mwarrior.com/celebsVwar.htm

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[MoeSyzslak]

No one trashed the troops, but I do seem to recall a comment a few months ago hoping that North Korea attack us while we fight this war. Hopefully, it was TIC.

[canofsoup15]

But are you asking them to fuck off? They are very vocal non-supporters of the war.


They are very anti-war, and i respect their opinions because thats their own choice. I enjoy thei music, but i am pro-war if thats the way you see it, but just because they are anti-war wont change the fact i like their music and i definitly wont stop listening to it. Besides, i would never tell them to fuck off, thats just rude.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/canofsoup15/images/final.gif>

Shit, if it's going to be that kind of a party
I'm gonna stick my dick in the mashed potatoes

[FiveB247]

What kind of retarded article tries to compare college degrees and awards to those actors in order to prove they aren't experts in politics? That is a fairly obvious statement.

Anyone who blindly takes the opinion of another due his status as a celebrity is an idiot.

I would also like to say that college degrees and awards do hold accomplish and understanding to some point, but not all. Anyone can get a degree. You can't base everything about a person into just degrees and such. And if you think I'm incorrect, just think about all of the people who use knowledge to create evil. Bin Laden for one, has many degrees. Doesn't exactly mean he's a source for validity and respect now does it.

[East Side Dave]

Mountain Dew drinking pathetic asses

Mountain Dew makes you sterile...or impotent. I forget which. Nonetheless, I never touch the stuff. And that has been my first and last political thread contribution. I shall now go and discuss a topic that is trulyimportant- the Transformers. Good night.

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Big Ass Mafia

[spoon]

now we're hated the world over.
Jeff, don't kid yourself. The US was hated in many countries all over this globe way before our aggression in this conflict. Now people use this as a reason to voice it loudly. Greece, France, China, Yemen, and many others, who cares? I could think of thousands of reasons to hate them that are way more valid than their reasons now. The United States are the Yankees of the globe. Unless you are a citizen, everyone else blames you for your own problems and envy kills. Why do anti-war activists always push their agenda as if they just understand things better and are more intelligent? Truth be told, it pisses me off and I'd like to kill some of them too. Aren't the world bank rallies enough to keep you occupied?

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Nothing...i have nothing!

[The Blowhard]

don't think a person's lifestyle has any bearing on the credibility or validity of thier opinions about this war. If you don't like them, respond or ignore, but don't dismiss them as the ramblings of spoiled children.


History is our best teacher, and listening to older people with wartime experience is always a good thing. My neighbor was on the beach at D-Day..we can sit and talk for hours and it never gets old. It's called wisdom. That's not to say that all old people are wise but we can learn from our elders.
As for "lifestyles": Sorry Jeff, but many people live in "Ivory Towers" and "know what's best" for the rest of us.
Just my opinion.

[Bama]

The United States are the Yankees of the globe.


WORST METAPHOR EVER

Go Braves :)

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[fluffernutter]

fluff for PREZ! U-S-A! U-S-A!

Only if I can bring my record collection and I can blare my Anal Cunt and Combat Wounded Veteran out the Oval Office windows.

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This message was edited by fluffernutter on 3-24-03 @ 8:45 PM

[shamus mcfitzy]

History is our best teacher, and listening to older people with wartime experience is always a good thing. My neighbor was on the beach at D-Day..we can sit and talk for hours and it never gets old. It's called wisdom.


D-Day was against the nazis, this war is against Iraq. It's different.

[FMJeff]

As for "lifestyles": Sorry Jeff, but many people live in "Ivory Towers" and "know what's best" for the rest of us.
Just my opinion.


And you do? Who's "right"? It doesn't even matter. Opinions are like a shmorgisbord...you take what you like and leave what you don't. All I'm trying to say is listen and don't be so quick to dismiss people because they listen to a genre of music that is too "hippy" for you or have a job too liberal for you (or don't have one at all).

As for Ivory Towers, I know actors...they work harder than most people...sixteen, eighteen hour days for months at a time. It may not be as noble as a soldier...and the pay is significantly better...(if you make it, and that's no easy thing to do either), but it doesn't mean they should be ignored because they are celebrities. If you don't like thier opinion, respond or ignore. That is the nature of debate. That's how we grow as people.

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<br>
It made my heart sing.</center>

[TheMojoPin]

Why do anti-war activists always push their agenda as if they just understand things better and are more intelligent?

Why do people on the other side of the politcal fence do the exact same thing? Because that's the nature of DEFENDING SOMETHING YOU FULLY BELIEVE IN AND SUPPORT. Is it really that hard to accept that people are not going to always support the same things you support, or agree on the same things you do? It doesn't necessarily make them your enemy...obviously we disagree on this issue, but I hold zero malice towards you as a person? Why the hell should I?

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-25-03 @ 1:05 PM

[Huganut]

You know perfectly well that I wasn't implying that it's "our opinion to keep to ourselves." That's not the point of a protest. It's "our" opinions in that we're not going to be told what to think. I for one (And this hardly applies to all protestors) don't feel the need to FORCE my opinions on other people...I just want to make them heard because I don't want people to assume things for me.




And like I said, I fully support your right to have that opinion, and protest to your heart's content. I hope it does make a difference; I'm one of the apparently few people who read or at least post in this forum that is a fence sitter. I can see valid points on both sides of the argument.

My statement, I suppose poorly stated in my first post, was more directed towards those individuals that deliberately go out of the way to find their soap box, and then get indignant when someone expresses an opposing viewpoint. Or become a focused on one topic and do the same thing ad nauseum.

A prime example would be Michael Moore, at the Oscars. He found his opportunity, and took it. Good for him. But, I would have had way more respect for him had he then said Shame on the Academy for choosing to honor a rapist.

[FMJeff]

My statement, I suppose poorly stated in my first post, was more directed towards those individuals that deliberately go out of the way to find their soap box, and then get indignant when someone expresses an opposing viewpoint. Or become a focused on one topic and do the same thing ad nauseum.


Most people don't enjoy having their perspective challenged. They grow accustomed to a particular viewpoint because it is comfortable and fits neatly inside a box for them. This behavior, and I think its important to realize this, is found on both sides of the debate about this war.

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[TooCute]

'm one of the apparently few people who read or at least post in this forum that is a fence sitter.

Naah, I'm pretty much there with you, if I had to pick anything.

I'm for getting rid of Saddam, and I know that war is probably the only way to do it. But I'm against this particular war which doesn't have the support of the rest of the world. I think that puts me on the fence :)

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[TheMojoPin]

Right on, Huganut. Good, good observations...

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[The Blowhard]

All I'm trying to say is listen and don't be so quick to dismiss people because they listen to a genre of music that is too "hippy" for you


That was just an attempt at humor. I was mocking the "lunatic fringe" that's mixed in with those who truly oppose the war.
That's the problem here. Serious people who want to peacefully protest are being "lumped together" with the troublemaking protesters, most of who just want to commit violence and stir up trouble. The media focuses on the thuggery and ignores the law abiding citizens who are exercising their Constitutional rights.
My point in this thread was simple. We are at war. As a nation we must unite.

[TooCute]

We are at war. As a nation we must unite.

Because we're in a war that half the country didn't want, that half of the country now has to support the war?

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[FiveB247]

Too cute...Don't you know.....

GOOD AMERICANS DON'T ASK QUESTIONS! JUST SUPPORT YOUR COUNTRY!

[MoeSyzslak]

I could be wrong, but didn't the latest NY Times/CBS poll say 70% of the country support the President's handling of the Iraq? I think the same poll also showed 65% of independent voters ( I know, they could be lying about their affiliation)
strongly favor GW on the war.



This message was edited by MoeSyzslak on 3-25-03 @ 3:42 PM

[Captain Stubing]

GOOD AMERICANS DON'T ASK QUESTIONS! JUST SUPPORT YOUR COUNTRYSupporting your country? Try it....you might like it. The people who volunteer to protect your right to ask questions might like it too, especially now.

Fezaesthesia - Prognosis poor...

[Knowledged_one]

Moe you are right it was actually 72% though that supported the war. and 65% that approved of the job Bush is doing.

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War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is worth more then his personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of men better then himself - John Stuart Mill

[TooCute]

The percentages aren't relevant. If it was 1% of the population it'd still be absurd to suggest that they should be ashamed of not being in favor of war.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
!! 2% !!

[MoeSyzslak]

Too Cute, you said half the country was against the war and I thought this poll was worth mentioning. I'm sure if a pro-war person made a similar claim, it would be corrected by someone.

This message was edited by MoeSyzslak on 3-25-03 @ 4:08 PM

[FiveB247]

Very true Too Cute.

And I do support our country and troops. Supporting troops and your country has little to do with their objectives which are determined by leadership. You make it sound as if I root for Iraq or if I wish our troops to be harmed. It couldn't be further from the truth. I wish them safety, health and peace....just as I do our nation.

And would people stop referring to our troops as 'volunteers'. They are paid and it is their job at their own volition. They do volunteer themselves to join and volunteer their safety for the US which is obviously honorable and heroic. But to call them volunteers...no.

[TooCute]

I was thinking of the numbers when the war started. I think it was around a 60-40 split? Irrelevant either way to the one comment I made. May be relevant to other things.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
!! 2% !!

[JerryTaker]

Moe you are right it was actually 72% though that supported the war. and 65% that approved of the job Bush is doing.


% of who? I wasn't polled. were you polled? do you know anyone who was polled? It's very hard to say 72% of <I>all Americans</I> are for the war if <I>all Americans</I> weren't included...

And yes, I know you can't poll all Americans, and guess what? That's why polls are stupid. You can probably easily have a poll where 72% of people would rather see "Kangaroo Jack" than "Citizen Kane." It doesn't make it right...


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[Captain Stubing]

And I do support our country and troops.
Good. Being the foreign policy toothpaste is out of the tube at this point how about focusing on supporting our country and troops? 2004 is right around the corner, you'll soon have your chance to deal with the policymakers whom you disagree with.

They do volunteer themselves to join and volunteer their safety for the US which is obviously honorable and heroic.Once again, we agree but how about focusing more on these points instead of others?

Fezaesthesia - Prognosis poor...

[FiveB247]

Good. Being the foreign policy toothpaste is out of the tube at this point how about focusing on supporting our country and troops? 2004 is right around the corner, you'll soon have your chance to deal with the policymakers whom you disagree with.


Like I said...I do support our troops and our country. That Doesn't mean I have to like the actions they are taking nor does it mean I have to like the agenda/ solution of how they carry it.

I'm not anti-Bush like some protestors are; just looking for any reason to throw shit at him. It could be anyone in office from any party and I'd still feel the same exact way. The next election has nothing to do with any of this. And in 2004, if I don't agree with a policy, I'll speak my opinion then too. I don't use or speak my opinions situationally. They are what they are, all the time and across the board.

[Bergalad]

And would people stop referring to our troops as 'volunteers'. They are paid and it is their job at their own volition.

The US Military is an "all-volunteer" force, and has been since the end of the Draft. No, it's not "volunteer" like at a soup kitchen, it is "one who enters the military service voluntarily (Websters)". Because of this the overall professionalism and quality of the military has increased. And yes, we are paid, fairly poorly for the risks we are asked to take. My fellow soldiers and I are not here to get rich; we are here to serve our country.

[Death Metal Moe]

Listen to me!!!

I'm in the unpopular minority! My protests don't matter anymore but try to stop me from tying up traffic and emergency workers!

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[shamus mcfitzy]

you sir are pure genius!!!!!!

I just don't understand why you ignore any intelligent conversation and go back to the ole "liberals are babies" defense. When you're an old man, and my generation is in control, you'll thank us. Because you won't be out on the streets, you'll be taken care of. It'll all be ok.......

[FiveB247]

I like how you revolutionize terms to mean new things. Up to this point in my life I hadn't realized that the entire workforce of the world were "volunteers".

And as for your little poke about me being a baby or that I need to be heard? You give yourself way to much credit.

[CaptClown]

Have you ever noticed when polls are going a certain way then, "It's the will of the people", and when polls go the other way supporting the opposite view then, "They don't really mean anything."?

Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army

[Death Metal Moe]

Actually I was trying to bring a little humor into the discussion. Maybe break some tension.

But I'm glad you pulled out one of my favorite Liberal Propaganda arguments:

When you're an old man, and my generation is in control, you'll thank us. Because you won't be out on the streets, you'll be taken care of.


You know, because none of us Conservatives get old. We just want to spend cash in big business and in our huge war machine. Right?

Right.

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[The Jays]

from a friend watching Fox News...


Reporter: a USA Today poll shows that 76 percent of americans support the war.

Protestor: Yes but that still leaves a majority of 24 percent.

Reporter: But that isn't a majority when three quarters of americans support it, that means 3 out of 4 people support the war.

Protestor:..... well... THATS THERE OPINION THEN!!!!!

<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> Fuck what you heard.</font>
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This message was edited by TheJays on 3-25-03 @ 9:16 PM

[shamus mcfitzy]

You know, because none of us Conservatives get old. We just want to spend cash in big business and in our huge war machine. Right?


huh? I said you will get old and then you'll be under a Liberal president. I think you posted in another thread supporting some kind of propaganda that the current college-attending generation is being mind-controlled into supporting liberal ideals. So I just figure that eventually this generation will go onto lead the world and therefore implement dirty liberal policies that will cause you to hate our leadership and wish for the old days of 2003.

[murfee]

heckler you speak the truth ..these punk ass bitches
protest the war but wait till the taliban starts knocking
down starbucks then we'll see them cry help me
........remember gen. george s patton once said the
hell with them protestors just give me 10 men from
brooklyn and we'll end this war...

[Huganut]

Most people don't enjoy having their perspective challenged. They grow accustomed to a particular viewpoint because it is comfortable and fits neatly inside a box for them. This behavior, and I think its important to realize this, is found on both sides of the debate about this war.


Oh, I agree with you wholeheartedly on that. Both sides of this argument refuse to consider the others, and go through life with their blinders keeping them narrowly focused on their viewpoint. Like I stated in an earlier post, I don't know which side of the fence to fall on, so I'll stay where I'm at for now and not like what's happening. Recent events, should they pan out to be fact (chemical weapons threat, etc..) may make me see Bush's point, or I may go 180 degrees opposite. I hate not having a clear picture of what's going on.

[Death Metal Moe]

shamus mcfitzy=someone who doesn't get sarcasm.

And:
the current college-attending generation is being mind-controlled into supporting liberal ideals. So I just figure that eventually this generation will go onto lead the world


I'm confident that these men and women will get out of their "buck the system" phase of life, and start to understand that these ideas don't work in the REAL world. They'll stop hating "the establishment" whatever that is and start to respect their parents again. Then and only then will morality return to our country.

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[Bergalad]

I like how you revolutionize terms to mean new things. Up to this point in my life I hadn't realized that the entire workforce of the world were "volunteers".

Yeah, I got my definition of "volunteer" from a new book I found. It's called "Webster's Dictionary". You may not be familiar with it, so go check it out sometime.

[shamus mcfitzy]

I'm confident that these men and women will get out of their "buck the system" phase of life, and start to understand that these ideas don't work in the REAL world. They'll stop hating "the establishment" whatever that is and start to respect their parents again. Then and only then will morality return to our country.


So new ideas should never be implemented? Only conservatives can run the country effectively, yet the two presidents during WWI and WWII, the two eras that put the US on the map, were liberals(FDR much more obviously). I just don't consider it sarcasm when you attack a political group, without at all showing a hint of sarcasm. It's the same as me saying "All Conservatives are money-hungry tyrants". :)

[Death Metal Moe]

Yeah, I got my definition of "volunteer" from a new book I found. It's called "Webster's Dictionary".


DUDE! Can you send me the website of that company in a PM, PLEASE?!?!

This new book sounds mighty powerful.

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[LatinSpiceXoX]

I just have one question:
If those who are against the WAR, and go outta their way to make signs and paint their shirts and walk miles to protest are so passionate about this, then how about they come up with a better way to get rid of Terrorism and Osama and Saddam and nuclear bombs?
How about they think of a nifty plan that will keep our troops in the US (safe and sound), keep the terrorists outside the US and will make sure that this doesn't ever occur again?

Whatever happened to discussing ways to solve the problem, not nagging and nagging and nagging about it for days on end?

Personally, I don't like that our guys, friends, sons, husbands, neighbors, cousins, brothers, mentors, uncles, fathers and boyfriends are out there, sacrificing themselves, going without sleep, being tortured, missing their loved ones, and being humiliated on Iraq T.V...

I don't like that they are doing this for the sake of preventing something worse than a "911" to happen, and there are people who think that this is about oil or Bush being hard headed.

I am no politician, and excuse me if I'm wrong with whatever I post in this thread, but it seems to me that no matter how many times and ways you explain to someone that this is necessary, they just bring it back to a "BUSH" or "OIL" issue.

Last I checked, we were attacked. Now I'm not up to date with the current events, but I believe we weren't doing anything to that side of the world that we had this happen to us.. and to me, in my backyard, I live 6 blocks away from the WTC site, and no that doesn't mean that it affects me more than others, but if we don't let them know BY ACTION, that we will not be humiliated or scared or be in fear, they will continue to harass us and take part in other (probably even more genuius-planned-out) attacks.

And if not Downtown NY, (where I'm sure many of you DO NOT LIVE), then somewhere closer to home, closer to your family, your employment, your recreation area.

To sum it up.
- If it's a matter of either WE die or THEY die, I pick them.
- If the protestors would come up with a plan, a few plans, some ideas, SOMETHING, to help with this problem, then maybe those who are for the WAR will not be so quick to say "SHUT THE FUCK UP"

:)

P.S. I'm not going back to look for typos.. so block it out.

"The Chewing Gum-Popper <a href="http://hometown.aol.com/latinspicexox/Latin.html">CHICK!</a>"
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[Death Metal Moe]

Their plan was more Inspections and More Delay LatinSpice. Their plan was more diplomacy. Their plan failed, and now we, the Coalition forces which are mosly US and Britian have to clean up the mess.

Yours is the thinking person's view and it's not political but it is right.


Ooops! Misspelled something! Delay is a tough word!
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This message was edited by Death_Metal Moe on 3-25-03 @ 10:55 PM

[shamus mcfitzy]

Last I checked, we were attacked. Now I'm not up to date with the current events, but I believe we weren't doing anything to that side of the world that we had this happen to us..


well Iraq didn't attack us so we can't be doing this in response to September 11th, I just don't get that Saddam can be connected to Osama Bin Laden when they hate each other. The only thing I can say is that a lot of people in the Middle East hate America, whether it be because they're jealous (which i don't think) or if they feel America is spreading it's influence around the world at the expense of the values they hold dear such as religion. That's juts my interpretation.

And i'd be much more approving of the war if it was decided that Iraq should be removed from power NOW. I think that if Saddam went against the law of the UN and it was decided that the war was overwhelmingly supported, I would support this action. But ultimately, the opinion of the war from a good portion of the world's standpoint is that it should not be happening. France, Germany, and Russia's votes should count just as much as the US', Britain's, and Spain's (who aren't brave enough to send troops apparently). The US didn't really have approval for the war AT THIS TIME, but they did it anyway. I have at least accepted that a majority of the US supports this war, but still find fault with Britain, for going against public opinion, and Spain for not sending troops to fight a war that they were so eager to have fought.

[The Jays]

... Hey guys, I need some help, and I know you guys researching abilities far outshine mine...

.. I need the sources to cite where President Bush, and his administration claim the connection between Sept 11th and Saddam Hussein.


If you can just post them here, it would be appreciated. I wanted to take a look at them, and I don't know where to start.

<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> Fuck what you heard.</font>
<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> That cab has a dent in it.</font> [center]
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[Death Metal Moe]

Some of the hijackers were trained in Iraq. That is a connection. Taliban have been known to travel into Iraq for things. That's a connection.

Iraq has weapons that have been used in other terrorist attacks around the world too.

And the 9/11 connection is more of a way to show people that we live in a new era.

We see Iraq as a threat of future attacks and we're taking them out. We don't need the UN or anyone else to dictate our policies. They will obviously hold a roll in the future, but I hope it's a minimal role when it comes to our country.

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[The Jays]

... Nah, I mean, I need a source that gives the exact words where the administration says that Saddam Hussein and Iraq is responsible for Sept 11th, and that this is why we are going to war.

I am currently trying to find these documents, and I know they are out there, because we keep stating that this is why we're going to war, so if you can help me out, it would be appreciated.

News stories, articles, etc, that state that a member of the Bush administration said that Iraq is responsible for Sept 11th, and/or that is the reason we are going to war.

<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> Fuck what you heard.</font>
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[The Blowhard]

Saddam plotted to assasinate GW's Daddy.
THAT alone earns them a nuking.

[Death Metal Moe]

Nah, I mean, I need a source that gives the exact words


What am I, your fact checker? Look it up yourself.

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[TheMojoPin]

... Nah, I mean, I need a source that gives the exact words where the administration says that Saddam Hussein and Iraq is responsible for Sept 11th, and that this is why we are going to war.

Cute.

I for one have never claimed such a thing. What I DO hear, and what bothers me, is that people "in charge" DON'T directly link the two...but clearly imply it. I've seen Ari Fleischer do it in several White House press briefings right before the war began, and that's usually what I'm thinking of. A question would be asked regarding the reasoning behind the war, and it would be vaguely addressed, and inevitably 9/11 would be mentioned a couple of sentences later, even though it was not brought up by the reporters, or even the issue at hand. Maybe I'm just taking those instances the wrong way, but it always struck me as such an odd, glaring thing to bring up that clearly wasn't apropro to what was being discussed. It just be mentioned, like "well, we all remember what happened on 9/11"...yes? AND?!? It just seems very sheisty...

But my biggest issue is just with the number of everyday people who honestly seem to think there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11 in anything but the loosest definition of the word. It honestly frightens me.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-26-03 @ 1:17 AM

[The Blowhard]

Just think about how our troops feel when they watch the news and see the anti-war protests. Protesters in San Francisco had a "Puking Protest" this past weekend. I know they are a minority of the anti-war movement but it was disgraceful.
I 'm not a fan of the Bush administration and there will always be debate reagrding their policy and intentions. However, I think we all agree that this thing ends swiftly, and our troops return home safely.

[FiveB247]

from a friend watching Fox News...


Reporter: a USA Today poll shows that 76 percent of americans support the war.

Protestor: Yes but that still leaves a majority of 24 percent.

Reporter: But that isn't a majority when three quarters of americans support it, that means 3 out of 4 people support the war.

Protestor:..... well... THATS THERE OPINION THEN!!!!!

All of these numbers are valid but are based on the now! Not when most of the discussion was taken place. It's obvious more people are for it...cause it's already going on! You can't compare numbers from now and relate them to beforehand.

I'm confident that these men and women will get out of their "buck the system" phase of life, and start to understand that these ideas don't work in the REAL world. They'll stop hating "the establishment" whatever that is and start to respect their parents again. Then and only then will morality return to our country.

You're implying that your way of thinking or your perspective is the correct one. Obviously that's biased.

[Bestinshow]

Bush never said there were links between Iraq and 9/11. He said there were links between Iraq and Al Queda. He even angrily clarified this at a press conference. I wish you guys would stop with that bullshit "I don`t see the connection with 9/11" That was never
a reason. By the way, they found Al Queda camps in Iraq.

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[TheMojoPin]

By the way, they found Al Queda camps in Iraq.

Since when? Or is this based on the info that, yes, many suspected and proven terrorists HAVE travelled in and out of Iraq...the NORTHERN and SOUTHERN regions of Iraq, which Saddam essentially does not control? Again, I have no problem with the facts...just the mangling and skewering of them...

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[Bestinshow]

This is what I heard in one of the news broadcasts on MSNBC. I can`t remember who stated it but I do remember hearing they found an Al Queda camp.

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[TheMojoPin]

If that's the case, then what's proven is proven...but I can't find anything about that on the three major news sites I use (MSNBC, Fox, BBC)...dare I try CNN? I just think that such a discovery would be HUGE news, and the White House would be pushing it to no end...

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[jratt]

This is bullshit sadam has killed
many many many of his own
people raped the women and CHILDREN
that is enough to take him out....
but there is no other country that has the balls
that america and its allies have to take care of this evil man and his minions.....and now we have russia who is selling sadam wepons fuck them fuck france fuck germany

jratt AKA johnbravo
Don't talk about unity ever again...
my ears are closed talk to the fist!!
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FBP 4 LIFE
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[TheMojoPin]

This is bullshit sadam has killed
many many many of his own
people raped the women and CHILDREN
that is enough to take him out....

Of course. Sadly, this has never been presented as our primary reason for going in. It's always been spun to seem like Iraq is more of a direct threat to US than anyone else.

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[jratt]

Of course. Sadly, this has never been presented as our primary reason for going in. It's always been spun to seem like Iraq is more of a direct threat to US than anyone else.



Why do i see it as a clear case that this guy
needs to die but others think sadam has done no wrong and we are unjust for
attacking iraq to me it makes all the sense in the world

jratt AKA johnbravo
Don't talk about unity ever again...
my ears are closed talk to the fist!!
NJBLOOBLINE
FBP 4 LIFE
"fear me or love me, I don't give a F'k"

[Bestinshow]

It is possible it was just thrown out there. I agree I haven`t heard much more on it either but I will keep my ears open. I hate to be guilty
of throwing out shit that isn`t true. I do disagree with you about him not being a threat though. I believe he was a powder keg ready to go off. All it takes is that one day. I guess we wil never know.

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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 3-26-03 @ 3:29 PM

[King Imp]

All of these numbers are valid but are based on the now! Not when most of the discussion was taken place. It's obvious more people are for it...cause it's already going on! You can't compare numbers from now and relate them to beforehand.
So, are you saying that the only reason more are for it is because it's already going on? Come on, that is so weak!

Sorry if you choose to live in the past, but I live in the now, and NOW says more people, MUCH more people are for this than against it.

[A.J.]

If that's the case, then what's proven is proven...but I can't find anything about that on the three major news sites I use (MSNBC, Fox, BBC)...dare I try CNN? I just think that such a discovery would be HUGE news, and the White House would be pushing it to no end...

I posted this link in another thread. Maybe Iraq has only supported Palestinian groups or maybe they also were unknowingly supporting al Qaeda, thinking it was simply another Palestinian group.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/interviews/khodada.html

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This message was edited by AJinDC on 3-26-03 @ 4:03 PM

[Legolas]

The guy in the PBS interview, that you linked, doesn't even believe that Osama bin Laden was behind the terrorism on 9/11.

I assure you, this operation was conducted by people who were trained by Saddam. And I'm going to keep assuring the world this is what happened.

Osama bin Laden has no such capabilities. Why? Because this kind of attacks must be, and has to be, organized by a capable state, such as Iraq; a state where they can provide high level of training, and they can provide high level of intelligence to do such training.

How could Osama bin Laden -- who's hiding in the middle of nowhere in Afghanistan in small caves and valleys -- train people and gather information and send people to do such high-level operation? We all know this is a high-level operation. This cannot be done by a person who does not even own a plane in Afghanistan, who cannot offer such training in Afghanistan. This is definitely done by a mastermind like Saddam. ...



Haven't we already proved that Osama and Al Qaeda we're behind 9/11??

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[TheMojoPin]

Why do i see it as a clear case that this guy
needs to die but others think sadam has done no wrong and we are unjust for
attacking iraq

Equating the fact that people have issues with why this war is being waged with thinking "Saddam has done no wrong" is a pretty big leap and nothing but an assumption.

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[East Side Dave]

Shame on YOU , Mr. Heckler, for insinuating that I would drink Mountain Dew.

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[Bestinshow]

I drink Pepsi- All people on the right drink Pepsi.

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[FiveB247]

So, are you saying that the only reason more are for it is because it's already going on? Come on, that is so weak!

Sorry if you choose to live in the past, but I live in the now, and NOW says more people, MUCH more people are for this than against it.


Obviously he has more support now.

But the pre-war polls were roughly 60-40. Not all, but some of the 60% also wanted more inspections and have war as a last resort, then they would support the war. It wasn't as definative as you want to make it.

Anyways...You can't replace the 70% that is NOW and apply it to what was argued previously which clearly was no where near that total.

[The Jays]

What am I, your fact checker? Look it up yourself.



... sorry, I was just looking for some help. :(


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[spoon]

They do volunteer themselves to join and volunteer their safety for the US which is obviously honorable and heroic. But to call them volunteers...no.
Yah, it's exactly like taking a job at Dell which you can quit on the first Monday. Also, the majority of our military make less for serving our country then those on wellfare. They showed the home of one of the captured pfcs and it was a shack.

Today I went to the Pathmark down the road from my house on the Waterfront in Weehawken and got stuck behind my neighbor who never works. She has a home which is subsidized, four kids from three different men, and routinely jumps in cabs my roommates and I call to take us to Hoboken or the airport (eg.) and plead with us by offering us pot/coke to drop her off somewhere on the way. Anymore we can't be nice to her, since we aren't into taking her offers and have gotten sick of her. Well, here she is with a $300 order, which she pays for with the likes of wellfare funds, food stamps and the seperate WICA portion (essentials of eggs, milk and the likes) which is four full bags. Meanwhile, these kids defending our nation live in homes that look like slums. I think something should be protested here, and it's not the war. The captured soldier shown on tv had a home in which the stove was in position near the washer and dryer and his wife stated that they would have had kids sooner, if not for lack of funds. Here's an idea, get discharged, don't work, have four kids and drain our great land.


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[Death Metal Moe]

... sorry, I was just looking for some help.


Sorry TheJays. I was in a bad place that night.

I honestly don't know or remember a place I heard 9/11 and Iraq DIRCTLY linked other than the camps there and terrosists trained and supported there I heard about on the news and from other places. These places I cannot exacly remember. Sorry.

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[spoon]

But ultimately, the opinion of the war from a good portion of the world's standpoint is that it should not be happening. France, Germany, and Russia's votes should count just as much as the US', Britain's, and Spain's (who aren't brave enough to send troops apparently).
Like in the US, you only hear the voice of the opposed. The news never reports on the planes that land, only those that crash.

As far as Germany, Russia and France having an even say, bullshit. Perhaps they could refrain from selling banned weapons and equipment to the likes for discounted oil before we hear their fucking voices. They are owed millions too, while we spend billions to free the country. Who here is truly losing funds. Fuck their opionion. Perhaps we should terrorize their nations (France, Russia, Germany) as the muslims have done with us in regard to us legally selling defensive weapons to Israel who only reacts! Fuck that comment in its entirety!

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[The Jays]

Sorry TheJays. I was in a bad place that night.



:) . Can we go back to crushing "the liberal girly men"?

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[spoon]

Of course. Sadly, this has never been presented as our primary reason for going in. It's always been spun to seem like Iraq is more of a direct threat to US than anyone else.
Mojo, the region as a whole IS the biggest threat to US security. By gaining a foothold in two area, Afganistan and Iraq, along with the likes of Israel, the US has a much better chance of controlling these threats. Oh did I forget to mention our allies in Saudi Arabia and Egypt, that's bc they aren't. You may disagree and mention North Korea, but who do you think is on the market to buy their nuclear warheads which in turn would bring some much needed funds that NK needs.

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[TooCute]

Perhaps we should terrorize their nations (France, Russia, Germany) as the muslims have done with us in regard to us legally selling defensive weapons to Israel who only reacts!

Calm down, let the testosterone dissipate and look at what you just wrote.

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[Death Metal Moe]

Testosterone is what makes the world go 'round.

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[FiveB247]

Yah, it's exactly like taking a job at Dell which you can quit on the first Monday. Also, the majority of our military make less for serving our country then those on wellfare.


Ok...listen...I have a lot of respect for anyone in the US military. But when it comes down to it, they join with their own self will and decision. No one puts or forces anyone in that situation or job. It's a risk and part of the job they sign onto, which they also realize before they join.

And mentioning the pay is obvious. Do atheletes and hollywood stars deserve more then doctors, teachers, servicemen, policemen and fire fighters? Obviously not...but that is the way it is. And if you want someone to blame for welfare payments or military pay...that is in the governments hands....not the people on welfare or anyone else for that matter.

[The Jays]

They do volunteer themselves to join and volunteer their safety for the US which is obviously honorable and heroic. But to call them volunteers...no.


I see what you're saying... the word volunteer has a number of defintions.

Our military is called an all-volunteer military, meaning that every who joins chooses to volunteer their services, rather than being conscripted. They are volunteers in accordance to an alternate definition of the word volunteer. It's not the same type of volunteer as , say, a fire dept volunteer is, because those are people who do the service not as a professional position.


And if you want someone to blame for welfare payments or military pay...that is in the governments hands....not the people on welfare or anyone else for that matter.


Our government is by the people, for the people. The people elect representatives into government, and those representatives act with the will of the people. The government derives its power from the people, hence, republic. The people are responsible for their government, and the way to maintain that is to vote for government representatives who will act with the will of their constiutants. If the military pay is low, and welfare is low, then that is because it is the will of the people.

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[TheMojoPin]

You may disagree and mention North Korea, but who do you think is on the market to buy their nuclear warheads which in turn would bring some much needed funds that NK needs.

I'm certainly not thinking Iraq. Hell, NK's basically selling weapons to every Middle Eastern nation BUT Iraq.

I don't understand...do people think Iraq has been basically been running unchecked and free to do what they want in the last 12 years? We crushed them in '91...and the sanctions have decimated the country. We've maintained a very strong presence in the Gulf in the last decade, and have maintained strict no-fly zones over practically half the country, with almost constant air raids and bombing strikes. I'm not saying Saddam couldn't have gotten away with ANYTHING...but it's not very likely he could have gotten away with much. I mean, is the implication seriously that he's a bigger threat NOW than he was in the 80's and early 90's? I guess I just need a little clarification...

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