Bush starts illegal war just in time for Congress to vote on budget. [Archive]

Death Metal Moe

03-20-2003, 05:00 PM

Illegal War huh?

Ever hear of your precious UN's resolution numbered 1441?

You are very good at this "Doom and Gloom" shit the Libs use to try to scare old people and the poor.

You WON'T be able to EAT! Your children will STARVE! Your parents will eat DOG FOOD!

It's fucking old dude. If you're going to post propaganda, at LEAST make it new and interesting.

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sxymale

03-20-2003, 05:04 PM

um..what moe said.
i just reacted. my point was simply that with our men and women in harms way fighting so the ingrates of that region get a taste of freedom - NO one wants to hear that crap now.

Death Metal Moe

03-20-2003, 05:18 PM

I thought we WEREN'T name calling, pal. what hapened?

I got an interesting question guy. What SHOULD we have done? I eagerly await your educated response.

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sxymale

03-20-2003, 05:22 PM

hmmmn...seems like we all have a choice. We can either belive Londonanders conspiracy theories..or believe Colin Powell and hundreds of educated leaders who study world polotics every day.

tough choice.

Gvac

03-20-2003, 05:22 PM

I'm curious how this war is "illegal". By whose laws? The UN?

Please. We are a sovereign nation and need NO ONE'S approval to defend ourselves.

And don't worry about all those precious social programs vanishing. They never do, unfortunately. I happen to think that making people dependent on the government for education and healthcare should be illegal, by the way.

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Death Metal Moe

03-20-2003, 05:25 PM

That's a clear choice in my mind!

President Anders!

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The Jays

03-20-2003, 05:34 PM

We can either belive Londonanders conspiracy theories..or believe Colin Powell and hundreds of educated leaders who study world polotics every day.

... well, fuck, of course Im gonna go with londonanders... I mean, what the fuck has Colin Powell ever done that gives him credibility... at least londonanders is an internet message board member... he can work a computer.... his ideas should be on par with the leaders of the nation...

 Fuck what you heard.
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ChickenHawk

03-20-2003, 05:40 PM

illegal war
http://www.geocities.com/hawkfact/laugh.html

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silera

03-20-2003, 05:41 PM

I happen to think that making people dependent on the government for education and healthcare should be illegal, by the way.

Wow.

Absolutely mind boggling.

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Gvac

03-20-2003, 05:48 PM

In what way is it mind boggling, Silera?

You think people should be dependent on their government for their needs?

I find that completely mind boggling.

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phixion

03-20-2003, 05:48 PM

umm this war is legal but it doesnt make it right....

and im sorry but londoner makes a good point..... i have grown up and lived in a neighborhood where education gets no money..... i have seen people break into houses and steal to feed their children... i mean sure you can be all for this war all u want.... but if your putting this war before education, eliminating poverty, and prison reform i think your crazy...... im not for this war because i dont think its necessary. if this war was necessary id b all for it... but apparently whatever a good portion of this country thinks about an issue, doesnt effect this Presidents mind....so whatever...but this war will take money away from other things..... and i know my grandmother is already struggling to pay for medication and i know Bush will care more about this war than her life.. or others like her... so the only thing i can do is vote against bush at the next election..until then my voice will fall on deaf ears.....londoner i suggest u do the same... stay quiet keep your thoughts to yourself...the president doesnt care what we think....thats one problem with democracy... you cant solve a problem until elections.....

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HBox

03-20-2003, 05:48 PM

I happen to think that making people dependent on the government for education and healthcare should be illegal, by the way.

Yeah. Who the hell is entitled to an education! If someone gets cancer, they damn well deserve it! Let 5-year-olds pay their way through grade school by working in garment factories! No more free rides!! If you get sick and can't work, FUCK YOU!!! The rest of us are tired of supporting your crippled ass!!! Pay for own goddamned medicine. And old people! I say if you have a walker, you can walk, and if you can walk, YOU CAN FUCKING WORK!!!!! The second a senior shows even the slightest sign of Alzheimers, DIE DIE DIE!!!! They're useless, if they can't work, they don't deserve to live!!

Hell, why the hell should we even depend on the government for a military? Why the hell can't people buy their own goddamned assault rifles, tanks, stealth bombers, and 21,000 pound bombs? We can't have the people sucking at the tit of big government!

This message was edited by Gvac on 3-21-03 @ 7:19 PM

GaryWyze

03-20-2003, 05:50 PM

So when you are have a hard time paying for college and can't get financial aid or when you wonder why you can't afford your prescriptions or afford to see a doctor don't complain.

Ahhhh, I think you have us confused with Canada, because last time I checked the Gov't hasn't socialized medicine yet. Nor do they provide us with free college educations or even widespread financial aid.

Yes, programs such as Welfare and Medicaid COULD potentially suffer a few cut backs, but that's nothing more than speculation.

We've fought wars before, and somehow still managed to keep caring for the less fortunate among us. That's not gonna change.

The bottom line is that safety and security come at a price. And it's better to pay in millions now, rather than blood later.

Hate Bush and our Military all you want, but at least have balls big enough to make it about that, and not about money.

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silera

03-20-2003, 05:51 PM

You think people should be dependent on their government for their needs?

When $500 of my paycheck goes to the government, I believe I should get something in return.

As it stands, I have to send my kids to private school because public education is worthless, which adds another $500 a month in expenses, as well as pay $75 more every paycheck for health insurance because our government cannot control the insurance and medical industries exorbitant abuses.

How are citizens supposed to pursue Life, Liberty and Happiness if we're not educating them or concerned about even keeping them alive?

Where would you suggest that your tax dollars go?

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The Jays

03-20-2003, 05:57 PM

This way they spineless politicians will just give you a blank check.

RRRRight... Tell me, have you heard Tom Daschle or RObert Bryd over that last few days? You see them kissing his ass? You see Hliary the other day, ripping the budget and using your same budget bitching arguement on the Senate floor? Please, your logic is flawed...

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FiveB247

03-20-2003, 06:00 PM

Moe...do me a favor and post me the resolution that says the US can go to war? The resolution which would have mentioned military action never existed due to debating and the many mentions of vetoing by other security council nations. Such a resolution doesn't exist. 1441 specifically talks about disarmament, not regime change.

londonanders, Yes the US will be in serious deficit when this war is over and it will show in the next decade via social programs being cut. But I don't believe the reason the budget is being argued and completed now has anything regarding the war or the lack of patriotism towards the President if a congressman argues it. It's more of the idea of planning for the future or at worst just a coincidence.

Se7en

03-20-2003, 06:06 PM

Of course people can express a viewpoint cynical to war.

HOWEVER, just like any viewpoint, opinion or idea, if it's unpopular, than the converse of the freedom to voice that opinion is that others have the right to voice their displeasure of it.

This is why I don't agree with Ronnie over the Dixie Chicks. If they say something bad about the war / Bush, than I believe people have an absolute right to react in kind to their statements. If that reaction is to yank their awful records off awful country music stations, so be it - that's their "freedom of expression."

*****

BTW, this may be a silly question, but it's been bugging me lately.

It's the entire "I don't hate the military, but I do hate Bush" thing.

Now, I may be wrong - but isn't the President officially the head of the armed forces? I mean, true, there are generals and admirals, etc., a chain of command, but the way I was always taught was that the President of the U.S. was the head of the armed forces. Thus sort of making him part of the armed forces by default.

So, in a sense......if you hate Bush, in a way aren't you also hating the military? You're hating it's commander, that's for sure.

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phixion

03-20-2003, 06:07 PM

When $500 of my paycheck goes to the government, I believe I should get something in return.

As it stands, I have to send my kids to private school because public education is worthless, which adds another $500 a month in expenses, as well as pay $75 more every paycheck for health insurance because our government cannot control the insurance and medical industries exorbitant abuses.

How are citizens supposed to pursue Life, Liberty and Happiness if we're not educating them or concerned about even keeping them alive?

Where would you suggest that your tax dollars go?

i love you silera

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Death Metal Moe

03-20-2003, 06:11 PM

Death Metal Moe, what I would have done is intensified inspections with a more balanced inspection teams with American & British scientists included. Combine this with a realistic deadline. Then if there is no or little compliance then we invade with a broader coalition.

Oh, you mean like the Deadline in December? Or the one before that? Or the one before that? Or the one before that? Or the one before that?

Or go all the way back to the Gulf War when he agreed as part of the cease fire to disarm?

If inspections are the Anit-War's position then they have no position.

As for GVAC's statement, he is the real compassionate one here. Liberals want to KEEP people dependent on social programs in the programs to FORCE them to vote Libs into office. If you don't vote them in, the "BIG BAD" Republicans are gonna swoop in and starve your children.

The REAL caring individuals are the ones that want to get families off GENERATIONS of assisted living and out on their own supporting themselves. Hate to quote the bible, but

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. TEACH a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

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HBox

03-20-2003, 06:14 PM

So, in a sense......if you hate Bush, in a way aren't you also hating the military? You're hating it's commander, that's for sure.

No. Its a matter of disagreeing with the people who make the decisions rather than the people who would sacrifice their lives for America. Soldiers are willing to fight for their country no matter what. That takes extreme bravery, and the men and women of the military will always have my admiration and gratitude.

Are Bush or Cheney putting their lives on the line? Hardly. One of the reasons of I dislike Bush and Cheney is their weak attempt to avoid the use of the military. They seemed eager to risk the lives of troops. If you feel that diplomacy would never work, I can see why you would support the President. I feel that it could have worked, and that the President was dead set from the beginning of the inspections of going to war. I feel the whole ordeal at the United Nations was a big PR ploy to gain support at home, to create the impression of diplomacy. I fully believe we were going in no matter what happened at the UN.

silera

03-20-2003, 06:20 PM

Just so you know, to fund this war, and close our deficit, the budget being discussed also includes drastic cuts to the Veteran's Administration.

I'd go on about the dichotomy of our nation depriving veteran's of previous wars healthcare, social services, and housing in order to fund another one, but I believe that this speaks for itself.

http://www.usnewswire.com/topnews/qtr1_2003/0317-116.html

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HBox

03-20-2003, 06:22 PM

The REAL caring individuals are the ones that want to get families off GENERATIONS of assisted living and out on their own supporting themselves.

Why are you so out of touch with reality? Why can't you realize that in the Real World, you can't ALWAYS support yourself. Do you realize how expensive medical coverage is? Have you ever actually looked at how expensive a hospital stay is if you don't have insurance? Why should people be denied health coverage becasue they don't make enough money, even though they work?! My cousin just survived leukemia. She had no insurance. She will spend the next 5 years takling every spare penny she has to pay for her treatment, because she didn't have insurance. Is that right? Why the hell in a country where the insanely rich can spend thousands of dollars on shower curtains can someone who works their ass off each and every day be denied healthcare because thay have no insurance. You can ignore that if you want, and I'm sure some of you will, but I can't. And I don't care if you call me a communist, a socialist, anti-american or whatever. That's what I believe, and in a country that lets me express my views, I'm going to fucking express them.

phixion

03-20-2003, 06:23 PM

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. TEACH a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

kinda hard to teach a man anything if he cant read, or write, or do arithmetic....you want me to continue?

education should come before everything......adn dont tell me it does because it doesnt. i can show you the high school where i was zoned to go to... teachers have been caught selling drugs to kids.... but hey im sure those iraqis will enjoy their freedom......

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RandomNY

03-20-2003, 06:33 PM

The the person who said they would add American and British scientist to the UN inspection teams.

I have 1 quesiton since SADDAM constantly fought the UN to have Americans and British scientist not included in the inspections because he felt they would just be SPYs for the PRESIDENT...

How would you make SADDAM accept US and BRITISH inspectors? Ask him very harshly? Shake you finger at him until he listened then punish him by sending him to his Palace with no Milk and cookies?

But of course he has no WMD because he first told Dan RATHER that and then just yesterday he said he would cover he bridges with VX gas.

I guess he is just F'n with us. All those people that were tortured and raped. That never happend, those are just story's made up by the BIG BAG American's.

This message was edited by RandomNY on 3-20-03 @ 10:48 PM

phixion

03-20-2003, 06:43 PM

Why are you so out of touch with reality? Why can't you realize that in the Real World, you can't ALWAYS support yourself. Do you realize how expensive medical coverage is? Have you ever actually looked at how expensive a hospital stay is if you don't have insurance? Why should people be denied health coverage becasue they don't make enough money, even though they work?! My cousin just survived leukemia. She had no insurance. She will spend the next 5 years takling every spare penny she has to pay for her treatment, because she didn't have insurance. Is that right? Why the hell in a country where the insanely rich can spend thousands of dollars on shower curtains can someone who works their ass off each and every day be denied healthcare because thay have no insurance. You can ignore that if you want, and I'm sure some of you will, but I can't. And I don't care if you call me a communist, a socialist, anti-american or whatever. That's what I believe, and in a country that lets me express my views, I'm going to fucking express them.

HBox is my man too!!!!

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Death Metal Moe

03-20-2003, 06:47 PM

You two Tag Team Libs prove nothing.

Deal with Education and Health Care INSTEAD of keeping people in the "loop" so to speak. Us "conservatives" aren't coming for the poor just yet. We want to make the poor the middle class or better! I'd like to give these people HOPE to one day possibly achive the American Dream instead of lookinf forward to a lifetime of handouts.

Is that so hard? You REALLY prefer to just let our taxes continue to pay for these social programs? That's not compassion, that's stupidity.

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HBox

03-20-2003, 06:52 PM

We want to make the poor the middle class or better! I'd like to give these people HOPE to one day possibly achive the American Dream instead of lookinf forward to a lifetime of handouts.

Now I'm pissed. I AM TALKING ABOUT THE MIDDLE CLASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you realize how many people are WITHOUT health insurance! And how one illness can ruin their lives! You have NO IDEA how much healthcare costs. Live in a family with a father who has a bad heart, and two siblings with Cystic Fibrosis and then you will see what health care costs. If we didn't have health insurance my mother right no would be a childless widow. We do though, and despite the insurance my parents are in debt over $10,000 in just medical bills. There isn't a day goes by that a bill collector calls for money we don't have. And we all work. Both my parents have good jobs. We would be living the good life if we weren't all sick. IS THIS THE FUCKING AMERICAN DREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!? What did we do to deserve this? We work our ass off to pay the bills, and anything extra goes to our debt. My parents are 50 and have NO money saved. How could they? We all work, we are a middle class family and this is the real world. Ignore it if you like. Say that all we want is handouts. Just say it. I'd take handouts over watching my sister slowly die because we can't afford medicine.

TheGameHHH

03-20-2003, 06:56 PM

When are you guys all gonna realize you're arguing on a message board and that everybody has a different opinion so therefore none of this will ever be settled?

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silera

03-20-2003, 06:58 PM

Is that so hard? You REALLY prefer to just let our taxes continue to pay for these social programs? That's not compassion, that's stupidity.

How are education and health care social programs?

How are we supposed to remain a productive nation, when our children aren't educated and our workforce isn't healthy? It is only common sense to make these two issues the MOST important ones on every level of government.

You might as well say fuck water and oxygen, I don't need those to live.

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The Jays

03-20-2003, 06:58 PM

.... yes, but it relieves tension, and gives us higher post counts...

 Fuck what you heard.
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IrishAlkey

03-20-2003, 06:59 PM

HIGHER

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IrishAlkey

03-20-2003, 07:00 PM

COUNTS

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IrishAlkey

03-20-2003, 07:00 PM

!

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phixion

03-20-2003, 07:00 PM

Is that so hard? You REALLY prefer to just let our taxes continue to pay for these social programs? That's not compassion, that's stupidity.

if your telling me its compassionate to watch my grandmother die cuz she cat afford her medication ur evil? or if its cool that HBox cousin should pay for getting cancer for the rest of her life ur friggin insane.
and if we dont help the poor what will they do?
if they dont have money to get food and clothing what can they do?

ill tell u:
either watch the family die
or
turn to crime

if you dont believe me come live in my neighborhood for a week.. please.

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This message was edited by phixion on 3-20-03 @ 11:09 PM

IrishAlkey

03-20-2003, 07:00 PM

POST

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The Jays

03-20-2003, 07:03 PM

... quiet you...

 Fuck what you heard.
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IrishAlkey

03-20-2003, 07:04 PM

........ ok .........................

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TheGameHHH

03-20-2003, 07:05 PM

alkey you whore!

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The Jays

03-20-2003, 07:06 PM

... I miss you...

 Fuck what you heard.
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Death Metal Moe

03-20-2003, 07:08 PM

Go Fuck yourself HBOX. My Aunt died rom Cystic Fibrosis and I KNOW about the cost to the wallet AND a family. Don't you fucking tell ME about health care costs. It's a painful thing. I wish your family the best, but DO NOT start telling me about their sickness trying to make me guilty because that's pretty fucking low.

As for YOU Phinox, we HELP people by NOT keeping them on the usual 'handout' system. We put more money into job training and less into welfare. We educate more too. I'm all for the vouchure system in schools to. Give parents a choice.

And we also do more to keep health care costs resonable. The current system is out of control.

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silera

03-20-2003, 07:09 PM

I'm chopped liver?

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IrishAlkey

03-20-2003, 07:09 PM

............... <3 ........

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The Jays

03-20-2003, 07:10 PM

I'm chopped liver?

... I have trouble expressing my feelings toward girls....

 Fuck what you heard.
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phixion

03-20-2003, 07:10 PM

I'm chopped liver?

i still think u bring good points to the table...... but dont tell that to mr conservative back there
i bet he totally anti abortion too.... and agenst legalizing the wacky tobacky....

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silera

03-20-2003, 07:11 PM

Faggits.

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IrishAlkey

03-20-2003, 07:14 PM

You rang?

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A.J.

03-20-2003, 07:14 PM

Why not push a budget through Congress when you start an war and descent against the President would look "unpatriotic".

The annual budget process begins following the State of the Union address. Right now, the Navy is sending its leaders to testify before Congress and brief Congressional staffers. The relevant committees (in my case Defense) will markup the 13 spending bills during the summer with the hopes of presenting FY04 spending bills by the start of the fiscal year (1 OCT).

Inevitably there will be a Continuing Resolution and possibly a Supplemental Budget bill (because of the war and reconstruction/relief efforts in Iraq).

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Death Metal Moe

03-20-2003, 07:16 PM

i still think u bring good points to the table...... but dont tell that to mr conservative back there
i bet he totally anti abortion too.... and agenst legalizing the wacky tobacky....

She's very left of center.

And just incase you WERE Talking about me, I am Pro Choice and also Pro-Legalization.

Our legal system is clogged with too many small drug charges. A joint isn't a crime. Hell, an Ounce isn't a crime in my mind. Pot is NOT crack or coke and it's about time we started treating it like it wasn't.

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The Jays

03-20-2003, 07:17 PM

I miss you too sweetheart....

 Fuck what you heard.
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phixion

03-20-2003, 07:24 PM

And just incase you WERE Talking about me, I am Pro Choice and also Pro-Legalization.

Our legal system is clogged with too many small drug charges. A joint isn't a crime. Hell, an Ounce isn't a crime in my mind. Pot is NOT crack or coke and it's about time we started treating it like it wasn't.

arite dude ur cool in my book but u need to come see some areas of poverty.........ull see that some ppl have no choice but to rely on the state...its sad but tru....im not saying that they should.....but the state should help them if its needed....

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silera

03-20-2003, 07:25 PM

She's very left of center.

I have to be in order to get a good angle on Alkey's dick.

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I can't stand myself either.</center>

silera

03-20-2003, 07:31 PM

We put more money into job training and less into welfare. We educate more too. I'm all for the vouchure system in schools to. Give parents a choice.

And we also do more to keep health care costs resonable. The current system is out of control.

As it stands, I have to send my kids to private school because public education is worthless, which adds another $500 a month in expenses, as well as pay $75 more every paycheck for health insurance because our government cannot control the insurance and medical industries exorbitant abuses.

Psst... Moe... don't tell anyone, but we agree!

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Death Metal Moe

03-20-2003, 07:32 PM

arite dude ur cool in my book but u need to come see some areas of poverty.........ull see that some ppl have no choice but to rely on the state...its sad but tru....im not saying that they should.....but the state should help them if its needed....

Iv'e seen Poverty plenty of times. I am BLESSED to have a family that is middle to upper middle class and VERY supportive of my lazy ass. That is just where I come from.

But I've seen poverty. It is a VERY sad situation. And I am NOT saying that NO ONE EVER gets support! Life SUCKS and throws us all curves. Workman's comp, medicare, unemployment, all VERY important. And I don't want to take them away, like some on the LEFT say I and other conservatives do.

But I AM for limiting the ammount of time a person has to collect certian things, like welfare.

I honestly see the constant, prolonged acceptance of these programs by an individual as having a demoralizing effect on them. It keeps them WEAK and NEEDING that next hand out. It keeps generations of people on the teet of Government. And when you are a slave to these programs, there is no bettering yourself. You just exist. That is NOT the ideals this country was built on, and NOT how individuals thrive here.

Giving people education, job training and affordable health care is a way to STRENGHTEN the pride of a people. You all know that when you WORK for something you appreciate it more than when you are given it, and promised more.

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The Jays

03-20-2003, 07:33 PM

... health care sucks cuz pain and suffering awards are outrageous....

 Fuck what you heard.
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HBox

03-20-2003, 07:42 PM

But I AM for limiting the ammount of time a person has to collect certian things, like welfare.

Who says liberals are on favor of unlimited welfare? I sure as hell am opposed to it. You say that conservatives are characterized as wanting to eliminate all social programs. But then you characterize liberals as wanting to give hand outs. So we're all the same in that we exagerrate each others position.

Dewey

03-20-2003, 07:46 PM

illegal war

Illegal war? By whose set of laws? We are a sovereign nation.

If you mean the war is illegal by our laws, it isn't. Congress gave the President full authority to utilize force against Iraq prior to the November 2002 elections.

Have you considered changing your name to Parisanders? Somehow, it just fits better.

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FiveB247

03-20-2003, 07:46 PM

You might as well say fuck water and oxygen, I don't need those to live.

Most US officials do ignore the serious implications of the environment and global warming.

Also, Moe you mentioned the government and social programs trying to raise the poor classes up to the middle class. Statistics have stated the separation of wealth in the US hasn't been this polar since the times of Carnigie, Rockefeller and Morgan. The middle class is shrinking in our country.

silera

03-20-2003, 07:51 PM

Quote:
But I AM for limiting the ammount of time a person has to collect certian things, like welfare.

I do too. I'd also like for programs to include the middle class which is completely forgotten in the equation. It's pretty much set up so that you're either flat broke below the poverty line, or rich enough not to care.

Child care, health care, and job training shouldn't come at the cost of poverty. If you work and pay taxes, and are simply making ends meet, paying for your child's eduation or illness shouldn't put you in years of debt.

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Bergalad

03-20-2003, 08:02 PM

You know, I shouldn't have to pay for someone else's children. Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness doesn't mean sit around and let someone else finance it for you. I feel no obligation to take care of anyone else but myself, and if you don't have the personal responsibility to stop pumping out kids you can't pay for, or motivate yourself to get a better paying job, or any other of these grandiose social programs we have, then I don't feel sorry for you at all. Unemployment: 3 months and that's it. Can't pay for your kid's healthcare or school: sorry, I didn't fuck you so deal with it yourself. This handout society is getting way out of wack. Take some fucking responsibility for yourself and have some pride for christ's sake.

Oh yeah, and the war isn't illegal.

This message was edited by Bergalad on 3-21-03 @ 12:10 AM

phixion

03-20-2003, 08:06 PM

Child care, health care, and job training shouldn't come at the cost of poverty. If you work and pay taxes, and are simply making ends meet, paying for your child's eduation or illness shouldn't put you in years of debt.

is she still left of center? i dont think so
i agree whole heartedly

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Death Metal Moe

03-20-2003, 08:10 PM

Who says liberals are on favor of unlimited welfare?

YOUR LEADERSHIP IS HBOX! Everytime cuts are discussed and job training us brought up, the "doom and gloom" of evil conservatives starving kids comes out.

Most US officials do ignore the serious implications of the environment and global warming.

Also, Moe you mentioned the government and social programs trying to raise the poor classes up to the middle class. Statistics have stated the separation of wealth in the US hasn't been this polar since the times of Carnigie, Rockefeller and Morgan. The middle class is shrinking in our country.

Well well, more propaganda that Rep. want a filthy Earth to live on. Do you THINk I want a dirty environment either? I just don't want to tell a man he can't go back to his company and support his family because some Sierra Club asshole found a new MOSS in the river next to his plant.

As for your statement on seperation of classes, this is more class warfare retoric. And is this an argument IN FAVOR of more social programs? I don't see how handing our money will make the separation any less. Tax reform maybe. Lowering health care costs is another way to save us in the middle class cash.

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silera

03-20-2003, 08:11 PM

Can't pay for your kid's healthcare or school: sorry, I didn't fuck you so deal with it yourself. This handout society is getting way out of wack. Take some fucking responsibility for yourself and have some pride for christ's sake.

So, gimme back my $500 per paycheck and I'll stop bitching.

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This message was edited by silera on 3-21-03 @ 12:14 AM

FiveB247

03-20-2003, 08:12 PM

You know, I shouldn't have to pay for someone else's children. Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness doesn't mean sit around and let someone else finance it for you. I feel no obligation to take care of anyone else but myself, and if you don't have the personal responsibility to stop pumping out kids you can't pay for, or motivate yourself to get a better paying job, or any other of these grandiose social programs we have, then I don't feel sorry for you at all. Unemployment: 3 months and that's it. Can't pay for your kid's healthcare or school: sorry, I didn't fuck you so deal with it yourself. This handout society is getting way out of whack. Take some fucking responsibility for yourself and have some pride for christ's sake.

Ok..so you believe these social programs are taking money out of your pocket and could be spent elsewhere, while others believe social programs can help society. I believe our military spending is absurd. In between 9-11 and the USSR collapsing, we were still spending the same amounts that we were during the Cold War. That's ridiculous. Nowadays, I could understand if spend a lot due to defense and anti-terror measures, but give me a break.

ChickenHawk

03-20-2003, 08:20 PM

I still haven't heard a decent excuse as to why you call
this war "illegal"? And I know it IS legal, so actually, don't
bother.

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Bergalad

03-20-2003, 08:23 PM

So, gimme back my $500 per paycheck and I'll stop bitching.

Believe me, if I had the power to do so I would.

HBox

03-20-2003, 08:23 PM

You know, I shouldn't have to pay for someone else's children. Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness doesn't mean sit around and let someone else finance it for you. I feel no obligation to take care of anyone else but myself, and if you don't have the personal responsibility to stop pumping out kids you can't pay for, or motivate yourself to get a better paying job, or any other of these grandiose social programs we have, then I don't feel sorry for you at all. Unemployment: 3 months and that's it. Can't pay for your kid's healthcare or school: sorry, I didn't fuck you so deal with it yourself. This handout society is getting way out of whack. Take some fucking responsibility for yourself and have some pride for christ's sake.

You act like getting a high paying job is easy. You act like everyone can have one if they work hard enough. That's just wrong.

Bergalad

03-20-2003, 08:24 PM

I believe our military spending is absurd. In between 9-11 and the USSR collapsing, we were still spending the same amounts that we were during the Cold War. That's ridiculous.

The missions for the military have significantly changed since the end of the Cold War. Now we use our military for things like Bosnia, Rwanda, Hurricane Andrew, Kosovo... Our OPTEMPO has significantly increased since the fall of the USSR, and subsequently our military costs remain high. Is spending high? Yes. Is it necessary to remain the pre-eminent power on the globe? Yes. Is every penny worth it to protect both our servicemen/women and the citizens of the United States? Absolutely. I think there should be better oversight and control of the spending practices, but not a decrease in the funds.

TooCute

03-20-2003, 08:30 PM

You know, I shouldn't have to pay for someone else's children.

So in other words, you're happy to have taken all the money that other people paid for you, and now you don't want to pay for anyone else's children?

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Bergalad

03-20-2003, 08:32 PM

You act like everyone can have one if they work hard enough. That's just wrong.

Welcome to America!
you're happy to have taken all the money that other people paid for you, and now you don't want to pay for anyone else's children?
Let me clarify. I mean to refer to welfare, and did not intend to include public school in my rant. I have no problem with paying for public schooling, and didn't mean to imply that.

The Jays

03-20-2003, 08:33 PM

You act like everyone can have one if they work hard enough.

... Oh shit, I'm sorry, I thought that was what was great about America. I thought that was part of the American dream.

That's just wrong.

 Fuck what you heard.
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silera

03-20-2003, 08:34 PM

I want my 12K back.

Fuck that.

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I can't stand myself either.</center>

HBox

03-20-2003, 08:36 PM

Oh shit, I'm sorry, I thought that was what was great about America. I thought that was part of the American dream.

Not everybody can be a CEO. There has to be SOMEBODY to clean the toilets.

Se7en

03-20-2003, 08:39 PM

So, gimme back my $500 per paycheck and I'll stop bitching.

If I did that, I'd require that you fuck me for it.

Somebody's gotta get fucked one way or another.

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I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.

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phixion

03-20-2003, 08:39 PM

hey bergalad did u go to public school?
if so sumone without kids paid for u to go to school.

and hey if u dont wanna help other ppl who cannot help themselves y are u prowar its the exact same principal... u want to help the iraqis people but u dont want to help ur fellow american......what unpatriotic shit is that?

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drinking beers, beers, beersrolling fatties, smoking bluntswho smokes the blunts?we smoke the blunts." -Jay

silera

03-20-2003, 08:39 PM

Let me clarify. I mean to refer to welfare, and did not intend to include public school in my rant. I have no problem with paying for public schooling, and didn't mean to imply that.

Your rant, directly followed my statement about schooling and healthcare. You said [sic]I didn't fuck you so I shouldn't be responsible for your kids[sic]. You proceeded to say, you'd give me back my tax dollars if you could to keep me from bitching.

I don't know why we're equating welfare programs with education and healthcare reform in this thread. The two are apples and oranges. Education is necessary for our economy and to keep crime down. Healthcare reform is just common sense, as our population gets older.

If you read my statements in this thread, I haven't stated once that I believe in handouts. Time limits on welfare, mandatory training and work, and transitional assistance with child care and medical coverage are the only way to keep people off the welfare roles.

I've worked since I was 13, and you're right, you didn't fuck me. You're not responsible for my children, but as a taxpayer and as someone that has played by the rules her whole life, its frustrating to know that my contributions to our government's budget is wasted while I have to spend the after tax money I have left over to provide what my tax dollars were supposed to ensure me.

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Death Metal Moe

03-20-2003, 08:46 PM

Just a cheap plug: Go read Jersey Rich's new post about staying on topic. I am guilty too in this and many other threads, but I will now try my hardest to stay on topic.

If you think this war is illegal by international law, you are retarded. We do NOT want our national security dictated by a organizaton that cannot even back up it's own resolutions. Inspections failed and now we and the other 39 willing nations will clean up the mess.

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Bergalad

03-20-2003, 08:51 PM

Two things.

First, I don't think this war is illegal. It's unfortunate, but not illegal. We are enforcing (along with 40+ others) what the UN WOULD NOT enforce. What else is new there.

Second, Silera. I wasn't aiming my initial comments at you, and if it came across that way I apologize. You obviously take care of yourself, and I commend you for that. My anger is directed at those who refuse to take care of themselves but expect someone else to, not at those who act responsibly and are good citizens.

phixion

03-20-2003, 08:55 PM

If you think this war is illegal by international law, you are retarded. We do NOT want our national security dictated by a organizaton that cannot even back up it's own resolutions. Inspections failed and now we and the other 39 willing nations will clean up the mess.

i agree with the first part... but i dont see y we ever joined the UN if we didnt believe it would work...and if we disobey the UN how are we better than Hussein? although isince we already have disobeyed the UN i wouldnt mind some sanctions put on the US just like Iraq. No more white asparagus should be imported to this country damn those germans for creating that!!!!

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TheMojoPin

03-20-2003, 10:23 PM

My anger is directed at those who refuse to take care of themselves but expect someone else to

And rightfully so. But luckily, no matter how negatively the media tries to paint it (Oh yes, that very same "LIBERAL" media), these kind of people are not in the majoroty of welfare users. I highly reccomend checking out the book "Why Americans Hate Welfare", by Martin Gilens. I will readily admit I was clueless about the welfare system and was pretty much opposed to it until I read this book.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-21-03 @ 2:32 AM

Death Metal Moe

03-20-2003, 10:34 PM

No more white asparagus

WHITE?!? WHOA!!! That is too freaky! Am I in some sci-fi movie?

Oh, does it still make your piss stink like death?

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NewYorkDragons80

03-21-2003, 04:16 AM

I don't think they should be using 1441 as justification for the war. Rather, they should use the cease-fire agreement that ended the Gulf War. This would show that Iraq is the agressor and the United States is simply continuing the fight that Iraq started when it invaded Kuwait.

Using 1441 makes it look like we are the ones to strike first and that is not the way that I see it, nor the way the world should see it.

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phixion

03-21-2003, 05:05 AM

WHITE?!? WHOA!!! That is too freaky! Am I in some sci-fi movie?

Oh, does it still make your piss stink like death?

oh u have no idea and the gas it leaves afterward is worse then mustard gas...damn those German ppl!!!!

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Bob Impact

03-21-2003, 05:10 AM

I don't think they should be using 1441 as justification for the war. Rather, they should use the cease-fire agreement that ended the Gulf War. This would show that Iraq is the agressor and the United States is simply continuing the fight that Iraq started when it invaded Kuwait.

To be clear, I believe, and I could be wrong, that President Bush included these resolutions in his reasoning for war with Iraq.

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FiveB247

03-21-2003, 06:17 AM

The missions for the military have significantly changed since the end of the Cold War. Now we use our military for things like Bosnia, Rwanda, Hurricane Andrew, Kosovo... Our OPTEMPO has significantly increased since the fall of the USSR, and subsequently our military costs remain high. Is spending high? Yes. Is it necessary to remain the pre-eminent power on the globe? Yes. Is every penny worth it to protect both our servicemen/women and the citizens of the United States? Absolutely. I think there should be better oversight and control of the spending practices, but not a decrease in the funds.

First off, Disaster relief like Hurricanes and such aren't part of the military spending budget. Secondly, You can blame which ever officials you please for the breakdown, but its obvious our intelligence community failed on 9-11. And that is part of our military spending. So spending a lot does not directly lead to success.

Well, more propaganda that Rep. want a filthy Earth to live on. Do you THINk I want a dirty environment either? I just don't want to tell a man he can't go back to his company and support his family because some Sierra Club asshole found a new MOSS in the river next to his plant.

Moe, Environmental issues don't just include some 'moss by a river' as you put it. It includes emissions from business factories, cars, dumping of wastes and chemicals and many, many others. If you haven't noticed smog covers most industrial and developed cities which is from emissions. Global warming isn't just a theory...it's happening and if policies don't change to try and negate some of its causes, it's only going to get a lot worse.

As for your statement on separation of classes, this is more class warfare retoric. And is this an argument IN FAVOR of more social programs? I don't see how handing our money will make the separation any less. Tax reform maybe. Lowering health care costs is another way to save us in the middle class cash.

Class warfare rhetoric? Not quite, I'm no communist. Anyways, In a 2 part piece in the Sunday NY Times Magazine section on October 20, 2002, Paul Krugman talks all about how the middle class is shrinking. The name of the article is "The End of Middle Class America". And I highly doubt you're going to call the NY Times some leftist or radical rag....ehh??

This message was edited by Gvac on 3-21-03 @ 7:28 PM

JerryTaker

03-21-2003, 06:32 AM

OK, I know Nobody will take me up on this and try to prove me wrong, but this thread is really pissing me off

making people dependent on the government for education and healthcare should be illegal, by the way.

What??? first off, define "dependant," Does that mean there should only be private schools? Privatized healthcare? should it be as hard to get medical treatment as it is to say, get car insurance in NJ?

Us "conservatives" aren't coming for the poor just yet. We want to make the poor the middle class or better!

That's the funniest thing I've heard yet! ask everyone who lost their jobs when a big corporation took over thier company if the conservatives aren't coming after the middle class

Do you realize how many people are WITHOUT health insurance!

I am, and it cost me $500 for a couple of stupid stitches in my hand and a tetanus shot after I gave my self a nice deep gash washing dishes, imagine if I got some kind of serious ilness now, without insurance. A bullet to the head costs MUCH less...

I am BLESSED to have a family that is middle to upper middle class and VERY supportive of my lazy ass. That is just where I come from.

You just summed up exactly why you're a republican, dude. Do I not count because my family hates me?

like some on the LEFT say I and other conservatives do.

Stop arguing every point with "you disagree with me, you must be on the left, and therefore wrong!"

Let me clarify. I mean to refer to welfare, and did not intend to include public school in my rant. I have no problem with paying for public schooling, and didn't mean to imply that.

You can't have it both ways, dammit. Everyone wants it all, and thats why we get into this...

... Oh shit, I'm sorry, I thought that was what was great about America. I thought that was part of the American dream.

The hell are you smoking? it's just a dream, you can't make money without money, and in the end there's nothing for the poor..

Also, nobody's paying any less taxes if we wiped all the Liberals from the planet, it would all just go to millitary spending and gifts for lobbyists, fund another stained glass window, gold robe or abortion clinic bombing.
Moe, I hate to say it, but you sound completely nieve of your party''s true agenda, which is to have power and make money, and keep everyone else down... oh and all those metal bands your into? would they even EXIST if the conservatives had thier way? I doubt it...

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Se7en

03-21-2003, 03:09 PM

Also, nobody's paying any less taxes if we wiped all the Liberals from the planet, it would all just go to millitary spending and gifts for lobbyists, fund another stained glass window, gold robe or abortion clinic bombing.
Moe, I hate to say it, but you sound completely nieve of your party''s true agenda, which is to have power and make money, and keep everyone else down... oh and all those metal bands your into? would they even EXIST if the conservatives had thier way? I doubt it...

Mmm hmmm.

I think from now on I'll just read the posts of the actually rational, less bizarre-conspiracy-theory having liberals on the board.

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Gvac

03-21-2003, 03:21 PM

Silera, I apologize for getting back to you so late on this one, but here it goes. You said -

When $500 of my paycheck goes to the government, I believe I should get something in return.

As it stands, I have to send my kids to private school because public education is worthless, which adds another $500 a month in expenses, as well as pay $75 more every paycheck for health insurance because our government cannot control the insurance and medical industries exorbitant abuses.

How are citizens supposed to pursue Life, Liberty and Happiness if we're not educating them or concerned about even keeping them alive?

Where would you suggest that your tax dollars go?

I salute you for being angry about your tax dollars. I am LIVID about mine. I suggest your tax dollars go in YOUR pocket, not Washington's. This is why I think it's criminal to make people dependent on what politicians think is best for you and your kids. You and you alone should have the final say in what kind of education your children receive and what kind of coverage you give your family. This is why I also support the school voucher program.

Under the voucher program, you would be entitled to a fairly large tax break because you send your children to a private school and not the Government's. The dirt bags in the House and Senate could not give one flying shit about you or your children, despite what they say. They merely want to gouge you for more taxes under the guise of "it's for the education of our children!".

So you see, the answer to the high cost of living is not MORE government, but less.

That's what I call freedom of choice.

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JerryTaker

03-21-2003, 05:44 PM

I think from now on I'll just read the posts of the actually rational, less bizarre-conspiracy-theory having liberals on the board.

I'm not a liberal, just sick of all conservative rhetoric... To try to sound more rational: everyone's goal is money. Yes, it sucks and yes we're slaves to money, that's how capitalism works. Secondly Politicians are out for power, it's in thier job description. What else does a politician do aside from seek more and more power over other people? Plus most started as lawyers, so don't even get me started there...

And you don't think that the Catholic church is one of the Republican party's biggest lobbyists? they pay for campaigns so that these jerks can push thier ideals later. Why do you think they abandoned laissez-faire, government non-intervention, which was one of the founding principles of the party, to push thier pro-life garbage on us?

Didn't conservatives engage in book banning? didn't they burn Beatles records and EC comics in the 60's? it's not that far fetched.

Also, I'm not saying the conservative party should go away, as the conservatives seem to feel about liberals. I'm just saying the conservatives shouldn't have complete control. I'm saying we need balance... I guess its the Libra in me... :-)

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HBox

03-21-2003, 06:24 PM

The hell are you smoking? it's just a dream, you can't make money without money, and in the end there's nothing for the poor..

You are being way too pessimistic. Not EVERYBODY can be rich, but ANYBODY can be rich. That is still what is great about this country. Anybody can become great, its just some have more obstacles.

The problem we are having now is that the rich are getting way too rich and the poor population is on the rise.

silera

03-23-2003, 11:56 AM

2004 Budget
All amounts are in millions of dollars followed by percentage of total of Budget.

Social security..................497,299 22%
National defense.............390,419 18%
Income security*.............324,962 15%
Health.............................246,579 11%
Net interest**.................176,395 8%
Education, training, employment,
and social services..........85,336 4%
Transportation.................63,449 3%
Veterans benefits and
services...........................62,022 3%
Administration of justice..39,413 2%
Natural resources and
environment....................31,586 1%
International affairs.........25,622 1%
General science,
space, and technology.....22,851 1%
Agriculture........................20,799 1%
General government.........20,503 1%
Community and
regional development.......17,060 1%
Energy..............................918 0%
Allowances***.................-297 0%
Commerce and
housing credit***............-701 0%
Undistributed
offsetting receipts***......-53,668 -2%
Total.................................2,229,425
*Income Security includes retirement and pension benefits for federal employees among others that total 95,635 or 30% of the total.
**Payments on National Debt
***These three items are negative because they include income from the Post Office, Federal Loans and other investments.

So, 18% of the Federal Budget is spent on Defense, and 3% on Veteran's Benefits. In total, 1/5 of the budget is dedicated to the military, not considering the payments on national debt which were incurred due to previous military spending. 4% goes to education.

I see where my money is going.

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This message was edited by silera on 3-23-03 @ 4:15 PM

Death Metal Moe

03-23-2003, 12:19 PM

Stop arguing every point with "you disagree with me, you must be on the left, and therefore wrong!"

To be Leftist is to be wrong in my opinion. This board if for opinions, right? I see the way they approach problems and their underlying goals as Un-American.

You just summed up exactly why you're a republican, dude. Do I not count because my family hates me?

I just stated that to let people know where I come from personally in my argument. Families can be strong, rich or poor. They can also be weak and dysfunctional rich or poor. Don't be ignorant.

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shamus mcfitzy

03-23-2003, 12:53 PM

First, I don't think this war is illegal. It's unfortunate, but not illegal. We are enforcing (along with 40+ others) what the UN WOULD NOT enforce. What else is new there.

what 40 others are fighting the war? If there are i really don't know about it. As far as i know, the US, UK, and Aussies are the only ones actively battling Iraq. And technically if you wan't to live in the US, you have to deal with the fact that the majority of the country has some pro-war sentiment, so just deal with it.

And just to throw it out there, I totally believe that if today's class system had existed in the 1910's, Eugene Debs would be elected president. I think that the only reason that the Socialist Party cannot currently get recognition is because for about 90 years the US people have been trained to think that Socialists and Communists (and coincidentally those who opposed wars) were the enemy.

JerryTaker

03-23-2003, 01:06 PM

To be Leftist is to be wrong in my opinion.

I agree that being all the way to the left is wrong, but It is also my opinion that being all the way to the right is wrong. and I've explained why I beleive it's wrong many, many times, yet you have yet to explain why, other that spouting rhetoric like "tree huggers" and "unamerican"...

Without the Left, the Right rules... trust me, you DON'T want that...

"they know not what they do..."

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travis151

03-23-2003, 01:14 PM

Hey all you assholes we have over 100 billion dollar reserves in case we need to go to war just for the military , do you really think we need to be taxed more? So much of our money is wasted do to miss management of taxes millions and millions the reason of a tax break is to hope that the money we get back is spent back in to our economy have any of you took ecnomics? I have . F'ng morons!!!!

Red Sox=More Better

travis151

03-23-2003, 01:21 PM

One more thing, so many people say how about spending money in our ghettos , ect. everybody wants a hand out!!! Yes, I agree single parents need support and also those who can not take care of themselves. But so many f'ing people use the system its bullshit I don't want to hear jobs aren't out there yes they are but they might not be the highest pay but you have to start somewhere . What is wrong with people, go to school and work hard whats so hard about that. You can do it or sit on your asses.

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Death Metal Moe

03-23-2003, 02:23 PM

Oh come on Travis! The American dream has been replaced! It's not happiness and security for you and your family anymore, it's free money for doing nothing! Fucking disgusting.

Anyway:
I've explained why I beleive it's wrong many, many times, yet you have yet to explain why, other that spouting rhetoric like "tree huggers" and "unamerican"...

I don't spout these things. I try not to name call, just to call actions as I see them.

I didn't say I want every person in our government to be Conservative Republican. But the democrats just seem to get more and more fringe and wacky in my opinion.

OPINION. If you don't like my opinion, go back to ignoring me.

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TheMojoPin

03-23-2003, 02:50 PM

But the democrats just seem to get more and more fringe and wacky in my opinion.

Seriously, point me in the direction of these "fringe and wacky" Democrats, and I might consider voting for them again. Otherwise I'm pretty much just seeing a party that's barely a shade more liberal than the average Republican.

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shamus mcfitzy

03-23-2003, 02:52 PM

OPINION. If you don't like my opinion, go back to ignoring me.

but we still get to speak our opinions. And the reason leftists include some "wackos" is because left-wing politics has more leeway(sp.) than the right wing, which i see as just banning a lot of things and taking as much power out of the people's hands as possible.

Death Metal Moe

03-23-2003, 02:53 PM

I guess the latest example of the Democrats doing their dance again was Tom Dashle coming out so strongly against the president even after the war had started.

It is NOT the time to divide the country, it's a time to be strong and united at home for our own safety and for the morale of our troops.

And yet the MINORITY LEADER comes out and blasts the president? That's the kind of thing I see them do and know why they are losing seats in both houses of congress.

oops! I meant Minority.
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This message was edited by Death_Metal Moe on 3-23-03 @ 8:00 PM

TheMojoPin

03-23-2003, 03:02 PM

It is NOT the time to divide the country, it's a time to be strong and united at home for our own safety and for the morale of our troops.

Just over the issue of war...or EVERYTHING? Because the war is just ONE issue that our politicians have to deal with everyday...are they supposed to just vote in everything that's put up for decision for the "good of the country?"

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Bigden

03-23-2003, 03:09 PM

The fact that we lost guys do you all know what the deal is. If you protest now you are a fucking coward. Hey my buddy Tim is fighting this war support them Hippie we are together now if we are not then you can go to Canada. Shit I hope my buddy is alive. Any intel Rooster?? I am concered. They hurt out guys I am ready to go those fuckers.

A.J.

03-23-2003, 03:39 PM

So, 18% of the Federal Budget is spent on Defense, and 3% on Veteran's Benefits. In total, 1/5 of the budget is dedicated to the military, not considering the payments on national debt which were incurred due to previous military spending. 4% goes to education.

Keep in mind that a large portion of the DoD budget isn't just to buy weapons. It pays for salaries (in order to keep experienced personnel from leaving for the private sector), training, maintenance, housing and healthcare.

And yet the MAJORITY LEADER comes out and blasts the president?

Daschle is the Senate MINORITY Leader now. I'm sure he's quite "saddened and disappointed" about that.

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The Jays

03-23-2003, 03:49 PM

Keep in mind that a large portion of the DoD budget isn't just to buy weapons. It pays for salaries (in order to keep experienced personnel from leaving for the private sector), training, maintenance, housing and healthcare.

Also, keep in mind that the military is an important aspect of the national economy. Cutting spending would eliminate thousands of jobs in many small towns whose factories have contracts with the military.

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TheMojoPin

03-23-2003, 03:59 PM

If you protest now you are a fucking coward. Hey my buddy Tim is fighting this war support them Hippie we are together now if we are not then you can go to Canada.

I've got multiple friends over there right now. Call me a "coward" again to my face and I'll show you how *I* like to "protest".

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-23-03 @ 8:02 PM

Death Metal Moe

03-23-2003, 04:14 PM

LOOK INTO MY EYES!!
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This message was edited by Death_Metal Moe on 3-23-03 @ 8:16 PM

travis151

03-23-2003, 04:56 PM

Moe I don't get what your saying!?!?!? I don't what people getting free hand outs unless they truly need it.

Red Sox=More Better

FiveB247

03-23-2003, 09:37 PM

Moe is that really you? And if it is...why do you have a life size cut out of MJ?

TheMojoPin

03-23-2003, 09:44 PM

That's ME, dammit. My image has become Moe's evil, evil pawn of EVIL.

And that's at my parents' house. We're from Chicago, my dad's got a bar in the corner, and he's got that cut-out along with tons of other Chicago sports memorabilia. So basically, I gotta get my OWN cam so I don't have to go over there. Mainly to avoid the evil cat sitting on the table at the end of the couch. Evil little shit.

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42nd-delay

03-24-2003, 04:32 PM

Regarding the legality of this war:

Clearly, under UN rules, it's an illegal war, as we invaded another sovereign nation without provocation. We're also not in a position to carry out UN resolutions as we see fit - plainly, a UN resolution must be carried out by the UN itself. If you want to say that we don't have to listen to the UN in matters like this...ok...but then why are we still a member of it? Either we believe in the UN or we don't. Obviously, we believe in international law of some kind, since we invoked the Geneva Convention after the brutal treatment of US POW's by Iraq (and I'm sure we'll attempt to get the UN's assistance in any rebuilding effort after the war).

America has never engaged in a full-scale war with another state without first being attacked ourselves - though there have been murky circustance in some cases: the Spanish-American War, Vietnam. The point is, though, that while we might be free to attack whom we choose in the anarchy of the international arena, it's a policy which we never subscribed to before. America has never seen itself as an aggressor nation, and whether or not a pre-emptive war is justified in the interests of our national security (a seperate, though clearly pertinent, debate), it's still a break with American tradition and the international laws we have long subscribed to.

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