Is intelligence on Iraq being slanted?

[DarkHippie]

First we find that one of the documents presented to the UN was falsified, now this:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030314/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_iraq_intelligence_4
Perhaps this is why more countries wouldn't go along with us.

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[TheMojoPin]

Tenet himself has said many times that the evidence is far from "definitive" or "conclusive". But I gave up on trying to back up his line of thinking, and apparently, so did he...

We're all just so...very...TIRED...

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[FiveB247]

Hippie, it's obvious these men are either Communists or traitors. Right...haha

[Dewey]

Is intelligence on Iraq being slanted?


I think you need to apologize to TooCute right now, mister.

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[reeshy]

How long were these "CIA" types out of the loop- they're all retired- where are they getting their info from?

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[Death Metal Moe]

A small group composed mostly of retired CIA officers is appealing to colleagues still inside to go public with any evidence the Bush administration is slanting intelligence to support its case for war with Iraq


SO DO I! Is this fucking news? This is a psedo-story.

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[FMJeff]

Never mind the intelligence on Iraq...what about the Intelligence on this board?

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[Bergalad]

Perhaps this is why more countries wouldn't go along with us.

It could be that...or that they are massive steaming pussies bent on appeasing a murderous dictator while attempting to humiliate the United States and United Kingdom. I can't seem figure out which one it is.

[reeshy]

what about the Intelligence on this board?



You're posting here too, ain't ya, pretty boy????


BTW-Great minds think alike, eh, Moe????

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This message was edited by reeshy on 3-18-03 @ 5:32 PM

[silera]

It could be that...or that they are massive steaming pussies bent on appeasing a murderous dictator while attempting to humiliate the United States and United Kingdom.

Of course.

It couldn't possibly be that this war is setting a precedent that goes against the very reasons the United Nations was formed.

Everyone just wants to make the United States and specifically President Bush look like a Doody Face.



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[Death Metal Moe]

It couldn't possibly be that this war is setting a precedent that goes against the very reasons the United Nations was formed.


The UN was set up to keep peace in the world. Sometimes to create peace, one must fight for what they believe in.

The UN was NOT set up as a huge worldwide Anit-war organization. It seems to have become that, and very anti-American and anti-Semetic as well.

What a waste of time.

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[Bergalad]

Article I of the UN Charter states the main purpose of the UN:
To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;

I can certainly see how it can be viewed by that statement that the US is working against the principles of the Charter. To me though, the overriding part of that is:
to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace

The US and other coalition partners are standing up for that challenge; France and the others like her are not. Saddam is a threat, maybe not directly to us YET, but certainly to regional stability and his own people. Bush tried it the peaceful way, even giving Saddam time to leave the country to avoid war. Still he stays, and now admits he used to have WMD when before he said they didn't. I think Bush is right, and those who stood against the US's actions will be shown they were wrong. And, if I am wrong backing him, I will be the first to post it here.

[silera]

Saddam is a threat, maybe not directly to us YET...

Isn't that the point?

There are alternatives. There is much to be gained by getting international support. Everyone says, "12 yrs is long enough." In twelve years Saddam has not used the weapons he is purported to have against the US.

Furthermore, why is it ok for us to have nuclear weapons and chemical weapons and not any other nation?

I love this country, but our arrogance pisses me off.



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[HBox]

The UN was NOT set up as a huge worldwide Anit-war organization. It seems to have become that, and very anti-American and anti-Semetic as well.


How is it anti-American? How would they be American? To lay down and do whatever the hell we say and never disagree? Disagreeing with us and trying to prevent a war is not anti-American. And, frankly, a country should look out for its own interests first. If war isn't in their interest and they do not want to help, it isn't their responsibility to. We often help other nations, but we are also by far the richest nation in the world.

And, technically, the UN is an antiwar organization. The UN, as should every nation, tries to avoid war at all costs. The UN believes the inspections would have worked eventually. We didn't. Thats that.

[Death Metal Moe]

Furthermore, why is it ok for us to have nuclear weapons and chemical weapons and not any other nation?

I love this country, but our arrogance pisses me off.


Did you just say that? I'm fucking having a nightmare.

What is up with you people that CAN'T WAIT for the US not to be a superpower in the world?

Will you be happy when your economy makes us another Mexico?

We're not an evil regeim bent on killing our own people. Plus, we help MANY people around the world.

What arrogance.

We are a great nation because of our constitution and the ideas our country was built on and tries it's best to uphold on a daily basis. What you see as arrogance I call patriotism.

This is my big problem with the Left. You look out and see a nation of dullards that NEED you and your elected officials to lead them and give them social programs. What a sad outlook on the world.

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[HBox]

What is up with you people that CAN'T WAIT for the US not to be a superpower in the world?



Why the hell do you always have to take it to the extreme? It either we're a superpower or a nothing. Were either a huge economy or Mexico. We either have no social programs or everybodies on welfare. We either invade Iraq or we let the terrorists destory us. We either see the nation as impotent dullards who need our leadership or everybody can easilt take care of themselves.

You take every opportunity to bash liberals and you spout out the same oversimplied argument every time. This isn't a black and white world. Just because people are against the war doesn't mean they hate us.



This message was edited by HBox on 3-18-03 @ 7:28 PM

[Bergalad]

Furthermore, why is it ok for us to have nuclear weapons and chemical weapons and not any other nation?

Silera, you usually make some good points, but this one...

[Death Metal Moe]

Why the hell do you always have to take it to the extreme? It either we're a superpower or a nothing. Were either a huge economy or Mexico. We either have no social programs or everybodies on welfare. We either invade Iraq or we let the terrorists destory us. We either see the nation as impotent dullards who need our leadership or everybody can easilt take care of themselves.

You take every opportunity to bash liberals and you spout out the same oversimplied argument every time. This isn't a black and white world. Just because people are against the war doesn't mean they hate us.


Most of the protests I saw around the world call us and our president EVIL while NEVER condemning Saddam. That's pretty black and white to ME. They're just engaging in more Anti-American/Bush shit.

As for Weapons, you have them or don't. 2 choices there.

And you're either a Super Power with a strong economy or you're a follower wondering what the other super powers will do.

Our own economy does of course have many shades of Grey.

If you don't want me to think that most LIberal Democrats feel like I have described you better call up Dashel, Clinton and Kenney to let them know that you're SICK of the extreme left dictating what the WHOLE left represents.



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[silera]

We are a great nation because of our constitution and the ideas our country was built on and tries it's best to uphold on a daily basis. What you see as arrogance I call patriotism.

This is my big problem with the Left. You look out and see a nation of dullards that NEED you and your elected officials to lead them and give them social programs. What a sad outlook on the world.

Your assessment of my political inclinations is way off base. I don't even know what left is. However, using 100 billion dollars for a war instead of spending that money on our own soil seems stupid to me. Our purported interest in helping other nations, only begins with political self interest. The history of our involvement in current affairs all reflect that.

You can delude yourself into believing that somehow, not questioning our motives or the direction that our leadership takes our country makes you more patriotic than me.

I will also say this, what works here is not always best for other nations. America is a resource rich country, with a diverse economy. Democracy works here because we have been a both fortunate and industrious nation. Our imposition of our form of government upon other nations is akin to the Spaniard's Missionaries sent to christianize the new world.

We don't know what is right for everyone else. It's arrogant to presume that we do and it's stupid to continue the "manifest destiny" mentality that has served only to our detriment.


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[silera]

Silera, you usually make some good points, but this one...

Unlike many other countries that have nuclear capabilities, we've already proven that we'll use ours.

So we get to have them because we're better than everyone else right? Our system is fail safe and we're no threat to the world at large?



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This message was edited by silera on 3-18-03 @ 7:45 PM

[Bergalad]

Unlike many other countries that have nuclear capabilities, we've already proven that we'll use ours.

Yes, and thankfully we did. And 48 years later neither the US or any other nation has dared to again. How many more nations will be as responsible?



This message was edited by Bergalad on 3-18-03 @ 7:44 PM

[HBox]

Unlike many other countries that have nuclear capabilities, we've already proven that we'll use ours


I agree with most of what you said, but that is extremely unfair. The bombings saved more lives in the end, on both sides. Invading and occupying Japan, would have cost millions of lives on both sides. The Japanese would never have surrendered. They really believed their emperor was god and would fight to the last man standing. Remember, the Japanese basically had suicide bombers, aka the kamikaze. Japan, at that time, was basically Al Qaeda if it were a highly developed, powerful nation. The bombings were not something we should be proud of, but we did what we had to do.

[silera]

I'm not questioning the use of the bomb at that time, I'm trying to make the point that our nation is great for us, but we're not the end all know all for everyone else.

We've had amazing leadership and phenomal success, but our track record in international affairs over the last half century is marginal.



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[Death Metal Moe]

Your assessment of my political inclinations is way off base. I don't even know what left is.


Look in the mirror.

However, using 100 billion dollars for a war instead of spending that money on our own soil seems stupid to me.


What would a fair price be to protect us then? And what would the price tag look like on another attack using resources smuggled out of your "Contained, Inspected" Iraq? You look that up for me.

You can delude yourself into believing that somehow, not questioning our motives or the direction that our leadership takes our country makes you more patriotic than me.


This is just an incorrect assumption of yours. I questioned it in my own mind and decided that Iraq is a threat and was proud that OUR president decided to act rather than appease.

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[Gvac]

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


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[HBox]

I questioned it in my own mind and decided that Iraq is a threat and was proud that OUR president decided to act rather than appease.


Again, black and white. We either declare war or appease them. There's no in between. Yeah right.

[silera]

What would a fair price be to protect us then? And what would the price tag look like on another attack using resources smuggled out of your "Contained, Inspected" Iraq? You look that up for me.


Iraq didn't attack us.

There are legitimate concerns, and I commend our president for being proactive in our fight against terrorism. However, I am not convinced that waging a war without the support of the international community and the alliances that we've forged is the way to go.

If Bush wanted to spend 100 billion on defensive measures, such as increased spending on international intelligence, increasing citizen awareness on emergency management, and securing our borders I would not disagree.

The attack on the 9/11 was devastating and disarming Iraq would have had no effect on preventing it from happening. These people used unconventional weapons, no army and relied on our unpreparedness and sense of security to wage that battle.


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[silera]

That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

If we were the people of Iraq, or if Iraq were somehow depriving United States citizens of our freedoms, then I would agree that this statement is relevant.

Our Declaration of Independance was written specifically to justify our war with Britian. The circumstances under which the United States was conceived, do not apply to all international conflicts.


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[Death Metal Moe]

H-Box, life is a lot more simple than you want to make it out to sound. As for this topic, we either make UN resolutions for the fuck of it or to back up what they said. And 1441 said that there would be sever consequenses for non-compliance. Botom line. The Inspectors WERE NOT supposed to find shit, they were supposed to aid Iraq in disarming. They're job quickly changed again right from the beginning.

Silera-Iraq didn't directly attack us. They did train and nurture terrorists in their country, including Al Queda.

9/11 might have still have happened if we had driven all the way to Baghdad the 1st time, but it was a wake up call of sorts. We can't let dictators like Saddam sit idly by stockpiling weapons unchecked. So this is the 1st war of a new era of proteting the country from outside threats that will definitly attack us sooner rather than later.

As for you constant mentioning of International Alliances and Community, it's not like this one action severs all ties. (like I WISH it would with France!) Even as Bush and Blair discussed their ultimatum, they also spoke about the role the UN would take on in the rebuilding of Iraq.

Also, why do we care that much about an International community that won''t back up it's own resolutions that everyone agreed on the 1st time? We can't allow the international opinion to sway our leaders. I don't want to hear Bush say "I was gonna do this, but a protest in France changed my mind."

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[silera]

Silera-Iraq didn't directly attack us. They did train and nurture terrorists in their country, including Al Queda.

Who trained and nurtured Saddam?


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[TheMojoPin]

If you don't want me to think that most LIberal Democrats feel like I have described you better call up Dashel, Clinton and Kenney to let them know that you're SICK of the extreme left dictating what the WHOLE left represents.

Huh? Those guys are more Republican than most Republicans. There are Democrats, and then there's the "extreme left". As much as you want it be so, we're not all just "those people." Deal with it.

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[Death Metal Moe]

Who trained and nurtured Saddam?


Sure, the US was one. France and Germany were too, but I only see one of the 3 I just listed willing to step up and deal with the problem now.

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[FiveB247]

Will you be happy when your economy makes us another Mexico?

Actually Moe, if you ever read anything about cause and effects, you'd realize we helped create the type of Mexican economy you speak of. It's called NAFTA. Look into it sometime.

[HordeKing1]

The very article sited in the initial post is a joke. If you read the article, the most salient point is expressed as follows.

"He left the agency over a decade ago," said spokesman Mark Mansfield. "He's hardly in a position to comment knowledgeably on that subject."

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[Knowledged_one]

I gotta agree with Mo here. When Clinton went and bombed to get Milosevich out of power did the Republicans complain. No. Did Clinton go to war without the support of the UN. Yes. Did he go to war without the consent of congress. Yes.

Furthermore, Daschle voted for the president to take any measure necessary to help the U.S. in Bush's bill 9 days after 9/11. Not only that Daschle was seen hugging the president but none of that matters now when there is political gain to be made, now its bush is acting alone and we democrats wont accept it.
The only f'n democrat who really gets that this isnt political its a matter of life and death is Liberman because he gets it.

I guess it really comes down to who you want to belive Saddam who says he has no weapons of mass destruction ( and he's never lied right) or believe what Colin Powell said in his presentation to the UN.
And here is another question is it better for Saddam to torture and kill his people while we do nothing is that ok? No, it isnt that is why we are using our might and power to topple a man who poisons his own people, do you guys not understand that. He did not report about the VX nerve gas they had until months after it was do, is that ok that Sadamm flaunts his transgressions in front of us?

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[TheMojoPin]

"He left the agency over a decade ago," said spokesman Mark Mansfield. "He's hardly in a position to comment knowledgeably on that subject."

Silly. Nobody ever really leaves The Company. NOBODY.

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[HordeKing1]

LOL

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[erole]

Moe, fabulous usage of the word "dullard" once again. You own that friggin' word.
As to this, why are you being so black and white? We aren't black and white about everything...THIS, this we are black and white on. It pisses the left off we are black and white because having the balls to take our convictions on this and standing proud for our country is something the left has lost in mangled words and dead ideas. some people just hate being wrong, and pride strangles them.
Want black and white? 9/11 made things black and white...saddam rewarding families of terrorists who die in their "cause" made things black and white...illegal arms from private French companies going into Iraq for the past 12 years made things black and white...saddam making buisnesses pay illegal money with the oil for food program made things black and white...making and using chemical weapons made things black and white...terrorist training camps within Iraq made things black and white...the means money and knowhow to support and arm terroists made things black and white...i can keep going...i'm just reved up.
black and white answers to black and white situations are imperitive, because grey gets people killed.

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