Possible Proof of French-Iraqi Collusion?

[Bergalad]

Haven't seen this posted elsewhere yet and thought it was very insightful as to the motives of France. Long post, sorry.
[quote]Washington Times
March 7, 2003

Iraq Strengthens Air Force With French Parts

By Bill Gertz, The Washington Times

A French company has been selling spare parts to Iraq for its fighter jets and military helicopters during the past several months, according to U.S. intelligence officials.

The unidentified company sold the parts to a trading company in the United Arab Emirates, which then shipped the parts through a third country into Iraq by truck.

The spare parts included goods for Iraq's French-made Mirage F-1 jets and Gazelle attack helicopters.

An intelligence official said the illegal spare-parts pipeline was discovered in the past two weeks and that sensitive intelligence about the transfers indicates that the parts were smuggled to Iraq as recently as January.

Other intelligence reports indicate that Iraq had succeeded in acquiring French weaponry illegally for years, the official said.

The parts appear to be included in an effort by the Iraqi military to build up materiel for its air forces before any U.S. military action, which could occur before the end of the month.

The officials identified the purchaser of the parts as the Al Tamoor Trading Co., based in Dubai, United Arab Emirates. A spokesman for the company could not be reached for comment.

The French military parts were then sent by truck into Iraq from a neighboring country the officials declined to identify.

Iraq has more than 50 Mirage F-1 jets and an unknown number of Gazelle attack helicopters, according to the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies.

An administration official said the French parts transfers to Iraq may be one reason France has so vehemently opposed U.S. plans for military action against Iraq. "No wonder the French are opposing us," this official said.

The official, however, said intelligence reports of the parts sale did not indicate that the activity was sanctioned by the French government or that Paris knows about the transfers.

The intelligence reports did not identify the French company involved in selling the aircraft parts or whether the parts were new or used.

The Mirage F-1 was made by France's Dassault Aviation. Gazelle helicopters were made by Aerospatiale, which later became part of a consortium of European defense companies.

The importation of military goods by Iraq is banned under U.N. Security Council resolutions passed since the 1991 Persian Gulf war.

Nathalie Loiseau, press counselor at the French Embassy, said her government has no information about the spare-parts smuggling and has not been approached by the U.S. government about the matter.

"We fully comply with the U.N. sanctions, and there is no sale of any kind of military material or weapons to Iraq," she said.

A CIA spokesman had no comment.

A senior administration official declined to discuss Iraq's purchase of French warplane and helicopter parts. "It is well known that the Iraqis use front companies to try to obtain a number of prohibited items," the official said.

The disclosure comes amid heightened anti-French sentiment in the United States over Paris' opposition to U.S. plans for using force to disarm Iraq.

A senior defense official said France undermined U.S. efforts to disarm Iraq last year by watering down language of U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441 that last fall required Iraq to disarm all its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs.

France, along with Russia, Germany and China, said yesterday that they would block a joint U.S.-British U.N. resolution on the use of force against Iraq.

French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin told reporters in Paris on Wednesday that France "will not allow a resolution to pass that authorizes resorting to force."

"Russia and France, as permanent members of the Security Council, will assume their full responsibilities on this point," he stated.

France has been Iraq's best f

[furie]

Not earth shattering news. the french have been selling their Mirage's to every third world dictatorship since the 70's.

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[DarkHippie]

would this be . . .
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[Drudge Jr.]

wow, thank god the us doesnt sell weapons to bad people!!

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[FiveB247]

Yeah seriously Drudge jr.

The U.S. is the world's leading developer and user of advanced technology. Once it is transferred by the U.S. or by another developed country, there is no way to ensure that the transferred technology will not be used for hostile purposes. The U.S. tries to limit technology transfers to hostile powers, but history teaches that such transfers cannot be stopped for long periods. They can only be slowed and made more costly, and even that requires the cooperation of other developed nations. The acquisition and use of transferred technologies in ballistic missile and WMD programs has been facilitated by foreign student training in the U.S., by wide dissemination of technical information, by the illegal acquisition of U.S. designs and equipment and by the relaxation of U.S. export control policies. As a result, the U.S. has been and is today a major, albeit unintentional, contributor to the proliferation of ballistic missiles and associated weapons of mass destruction. (http://www.house.gov/hasc/testimony/105thcongress/BMThreat.htm)

[TheMojoPin]

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But yeah, like furie said, this isn't really "news". The French throw their crappy arms at any country that'll take them. In fact, it bodes even more well for an American invading force if they're going up against French jets.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-8-03 @ 1:57 PM

[Bergalad]

Right, we have heard rumors that this was all happening before, but now this seems pretty solid. I only post it for two reasons, one of which is to further emphasize the ulterior motives of the "peace-loving" French.

The other reason to post it is that I enjoy seeing the French apologists at work on this board. There's no condemnation of the French actions, only recrimination against the US. Hell, Five and Drudge in this thread didn't even comment on actions of France, instead they used the opportunity to lambast the United States and bemoan how evil we are. I just find that humorous in a sad way.

[DarkHippie]

Five and Drudge in this thread didn't even comment on actions of France, instead they used the opportunity to lambast the United States and bemoan how evil we are. I just find that humorous in a sad way.
I know where this is going. Before this gets out of hand, can we just stop with the personal attacks? Ronfez.net is not a place for the abuse that's been going across the board lately. We can discuss politics fine, but lets just keep away from trashing each other. It's getting childish and making the threads pointless to read.

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[TheMojoPin]

I don't think too many people here on this board are championing the French as "peace lovers". This is just another example of hawks trying to see things only in black and white. "If you disagree with the invasion...you must want NOTHING to be done." "If you disagree with the war...you MUST agree with the French." I can form my OWN opinions, thank you very much.

Regardless of whether you think they are actively supplying Iraq, I think most people view them as a petty, bitter fallen power who is using its last scraps of influence in a desperate bid to maintain itself as a player in the world.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-8-03 @ 4:23 PM

[CaptClown]

Imagine that! Will wonders never cease?

I don't think too many people here on this board are championing the French as "peace lovers". This is just another example of hawks trying to see things only in black and white. "If you disagree with the invasion...you must want NOTHING to be done." "If you disagree with the war...you MUST agree with the French." I can form my OWN opinions, thank you very much.

I don't think too many are defending the as "peace lovers". It's just the constant bashing of the US and it's policies when, lo and behold the country that puts itself at the forefront of the antiwar movement is backdooring the organization it is claiming to represent the world.

Regardless of whether you think they are actively supplying Iraq, I think most people view them as a petty, bitter fallen power who is using its last scraps of influence in a desperate bid to maintain itself as a player in the world.

I can agree with that observation.

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[HBox]

Who cares. France, Russia, and China also have existing oil contracts in Iraq. It's in their interest for the current government to remain and disarm. If Saddam disarms, all oil embargos are lifted and French, Russian, and Chinese companies can come in, develop the oil fields and reap massive profits. If we invade and a new government is established, those contracts are likely void and France, Russia and China lose the money they payed for the contracts. The French would be looked at like oil mongers too if it wasn't for the fact that the whole world agrees with them.

[Bergalad]

This is just another example of hawks trying to see things only in black and white. "If you disagree with the invasion...you must want NOTHING to be done." "If you disagree with the war...you MUST agree with the French." I can form my OWN opinions, thank you very much.

I don't see where I ever said that sort of thing in this thread. The article was posted to discuss the possible ulterior motives of the French; it was not a call to arms. In fact, I am on record here as saying I don't like that we are going to war with Iraq. And DarkHippie, I try to stay away from attacking anyone. It bothers me that some people use any forum to bash the US. My comment was directed at those who, instead of even mentioning the article and agreeing or disagreeing, instead whet on to strike at the US. I would enjoy reading their opinions on the post itself much more than what was presented.

Oh, and to be "fair" and not labelled a mindless hawk or anything, I was going to post this separately, but instead will give it a mention here. It seems that the US might be guilty of breaking UN Resolutions themselves now. In the past few days, UN observers monitoring the Kuwaiti-Iraqi Demilitarized Zone have noted several breaches by the US Military. This is a possible violation of Security Council Resolutions and the UN is investigating...



This message was edited by Bergalad on 3-8-03 @ 6:50 PM

[FiveB247]

Bergalad..I never claimed the French to be anything at all. You want to point fingers at every nation and pointing out their interests, deals and agendas...but you always seem to pass over and neglect what the nation you live in does. Just cause other nations have interests, intentions and agendas....doesn't take away from what the US interests, deals and agendas are and lead to.

[shamus mcfitzy]

France, Russia, and China also have existing oil contracts in Iraq. It's in their interest for the current government to remain and disarm.


i don't think that's a crime really. If they want to make their decisions based on what is good for THEM, i don't really see a problem. I would defend the anti-war (i didn't say French) side even if each nation opposed the war due to their country's own well-being only. But just remember that France isn't the only country opposing the war and that there is legitimate opposition no matter what the French have done.



This message was edited by shamus mcfitzy on 3-8-03 @ 7:35 PM

[Se7en]

I know where this is going. Before this gets out of hand, can we just stop with the personal attacks? Ronfez.net is not a place for the abuse that's been going across the board lately. We can discuss politics fine, but lets just keep away from trashing each other. It's getting childish and making the threads pointless to read.

True.

Of course, going off on tangents about how the U.S. is evil or crooked inside of a threat about France's incriminating actions is kind of pointless as well.

I can see where Bergalad is coming from. If you want to comment about his post, don't change the fucking subject to do so.

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[ADF]

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This message was edited by ADF on 3-8-03 @ 8:54 PM

[HBox]

i don't think that's a crime really. If they want to make their decisions based on what is good for THEM, i don't really see a problem. I would defend the anti-war (i didn't say French) side even if each nation opposed the war due to their country's own well-being only. But just remember that France isn't the only country opposing the war and that there is legitimate opposition no matter what the French have done.



I'm not attacking the French. Actually, I guess I am really. I was just trying to make a point. And I guess that point can be best summarized by a quote from Jon Stewart: "Is it just me or is every leader in the world right now a giant dick?"

[erole]

France has been Iraq's best friend in the West. French arms sales to Baghdad were boosted in the 1970s under Premier Jacques Chirac, the current president. Mr. Chirac once called Saddam Hussein a "personal friend."

when you call him "personal friend" - big problem.
sure countries (even ours) do things based soley on their own needs and/or greeds, but going so far as to say "personal friend?"
i would really like to know if President Cock Chercock ever publicly apologized or took back that statement. 'cause I don't know about him, but I like my friends to not slaughter thousands of people and chemically attack innocent civilians.
One last thing. When you publicly state "personal friend" you know there are some personal dealings going on outside of the public forum. oil? weapons? who knows...but you can sure bet there is a little something on the side going on there.

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[Drudge Jr.]

bergalad, i'm not saying "france is good america is bad" what i'm saying is there's a lot of greedy bastards in america just like there are in fracne and russia and argentina and all over the place. i like what mojo-pin said about the black and white thing, france maybe a nation of sissy rude ingrates but they're still human beings who are capable of making their own opinion, eh i dont even know what i'm saying anymore

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[TheMojoPin]

I don't see where I ever said that sort of thing in this thread

Kind of. You declared that there were "French apologists" on the board, and decried that people hadn't gone out of their way to openly condemn the French. The tone was just like you were "catching" someone doing something you didn't like, when neither has really been going on at all...it just stood out as a very accusatory statement, and given how clear you've made your politics on the board, it's not too hard to assume those of us you were "accusing". It's a public web board and people are going to interpret posts different ways. Them's the breaks. My statement was more a response to the guy I heard guest-hosting Bill O'Reilly's show that day. He was taking calls and saying "do you agree with Bush that millitary action needs to be taken immediately or do you agree with France that NOTHING should be done", and it just drove me nuts when I realized that so many people thought like this, that disagreeing with the U.S. "automatically" meant you wanted to just let Saddam run free and do whatever the hell he wants...

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[TheMojoPin]

but you always seem to pass over and neglect what the nation you live in does. Just cause other nations have interests, intentions and agendas....doesn't take away from what the US interests, deals and agendas are and lead to.

But at the same time, you seem to have to go out of your way to deride and criticize America as being equally or more "guilty", seemingly no matter what the international issue is! If you MUST do this, why not at least offer ideas as to what you think are solutions as to how America might improve its international standing? It's less grating than "oh yeah? Well America did this and this and this and this and this and this...and then PS, they did THIS and this and this..."

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[FiveB247]

I do point out many issues ...not to mention guilt or blame. But so people recognize the entire perspective of items, not just what France does or any other nation. And in the overall realm of politics, international relations, economics and such areas, it's obvious to say the US has the largest influence and hold on world issues. So with that said, US actions, sets examples, lays ground work and is basis many of the times for important on-goings. And simply said, as a citizen of this nation...people should be more involved and aware of what's going on here then rather just point blame, responsibility and involvement of other lessor influencial nations.

[Bergalad]

it's not too hard to assume those of us you were "accusing".

I wasn't even thinking of you when I said apologists Mojo. Even though you post some odd things sometimes, I think you look at issues from both sides. That's what I like about this board more than others; there's a lot of people with great opinions and thoughts. What I was decrying was the seemingly complete disregard by some posters of what other nations do. It just seems that no matter what is said to them, they think the US sucks and is wrong every time. But you're right, and I will endeavor to be less catty in the future.

[TheMojoPin]

But you're right, and I will endeavor to be less catty in the future.

Well, it's not all on you. Like I said, on a message board, it's just a given that people are going to take certain things the wrong way, no matter what, myself included. No worries.

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[ChickenHawk]

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[Se7en]

it just drove me nuts when I realized that so many people thought like this, that disagreeing with the U.S. "automatically" meant you wanted to just let Saddam run free and do whatever the hell he wants...

I don't think that's necessarily true for the opposition here in the States, but I'm beginning to believe that France DOES want Saddam to run free and do whatever the hell he wants.

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I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.

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---Saint Iago

[TheMojoPin]

but I'm beginning to believe that France DOES want Saddam to run free and do whatever the hell he wants.

I don't think France knows what the hell it wants. I'd like to think that deep down they know he's an evil bastard who needs to be taken out...but I have a feeling that Iraq OR North Korea, France would have just used this as an opportunity to stick it to the US...

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