Why are some ASHAMED to be Americans?

[Death Metal Moe]

I'm SO SICK of this SHAME people express about being Americans. They're constantly on this board Bad Mouthing the country they live in. They call us a "Terrorist State." They slander our president for no other reason sometimes than he's not of their party. They indirectly SUPPORT the policies of Iraq because you BOTH want to stall action after like 16 failed UN resolutions. 1441 is 16 and now 17 is on the table if my count is right.

Who instilled this SHAME of just living in a great nation in you? Your parents? A teacher? The liberal media? Some radical Professor? Just "think" it's the right thing? Maybe you were brainwashed by some group of religion?

It baffels me that so many are opposed to the US these days. What happened to the American Spirit? This is the SAME thinking that is coming out lately that it's shameful to be White too. Just to be a White man is to be an Opressor. To be white it to be the TRUE evil in the world.

There is SOMEONE out there with a VERY STRONG Propaganda machine in place spewing out these LIES and there are MANY just accepting them as truths without thinking for themselves. I shudder to think what their NEXT target will be.

Anyway, if the US is so Twisted and Evil and Morally Bankrupt, then why don't you all book a ONE WAY TICKET to the country YOU hold up as the MODEL for all other nations, and go there. A nation that has NEVER made bad policy descisons. A nation that has ALWAYS treated it's people well. One that has never been attacked or had war in it. You go to your nation and don't bother to write.

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[fluffernutter]

Keep in mind I am terrible at getting my point across:

As far as I go, if anything it is just the passion that I have for my country and how I think things could be made better. I complain because I care.

This current regime in the White House bugs me because I believe the election was not won fairly and was taken away from the American people and Mr. Bush bought his way into office. I wouldn't have minded if he would have won outright but the whole Florida mess was just that, a mess.

I think there is too much of an emphasis on MONEY and not PEOPLE. I read all of this about a deficit but the rich are still getting paid aren't they? Correct me if I am wrong here.

The healthcare issue also bothers me becasue in so many other countries it is a RIGHT to have heathcare and it is paid for by the government. Why don't we have that here. Why, if I get sick or get injured do I have to get raked across the coals to get treatment? That just does not seem fair to me. As far as I know, in Canada and Great Britain the government pays for the healthcare.

I also have a problem with the news media here in the US because there seems to be such an demphasis on scaring the shit out of you with the news instead of giving you the facts. When I watch the news, I want the whole story, not a fabrication or what the news wants me to know. If something bad happens, TELL ME! Don't speculate on what bad COULD happen. What kind of bullshit is that? Making up stories to garnish ratings? Come on already.

I just want to see America be less corrupt and have our countries leaders be a bit more honest and not so damn shady. Show the same kind of respect to the ethnic family who is busting their ass to make at least $30,000 a year as the rich couple who is $100,000 a year. What happened to the equality? What happened to morallity?

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[TheBrain007]

I love this country and what it is "supposed" to stand for. I love living here, I love the people and the American culture. But I will tell you what I don't like and why I would be ashamed to be an American regardless of my love for the country itself.

1. Americans are generally ignorant (not all, but most) and don't realize what is really happening in the world outside this country. American media is not a valid source for information.

2. The US government is controlled by big business and the church.

3. American media is also controlled by big business and is always a bias source.

4. This country's war policy is a joke and is never for the right reasons. This latest war is over oil concerns, and nothing more. I agree that Saddamn is a fuck and needs to be removed, but if we are looking at the greatest threat possibility, it is N Korea, not Iraq. And none of these "wars" should be completely US led.

5. We casued the problem we are facing by supplying people like Osama Bin Laden in the war with the Russians with weapons and money. Then we left their country for dead and in ruins... people seems to forget that this was how it was, that we "used" them to give Russia their Vietnam.

Don't get me wrong folks, I like the country itself, and I agree that people like Saddam are assholes, and the UN has gone soft over the years and is becomming ineffective as a unit. But I ashamed to be an American becasue of the actions of our government, businesses, and the media in the past, and present. Did everyone forget that even back in WWII the US government interred Japanese-Americans in concentrations camps in the mainland US. It was illegal, they were citizens. I hope this turns around, though, becasue this country can be a great country, it is still the most "free" country you can get, and I do respect that if nothing else.

<b>TheBrain007</b>
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"

[lippy]

I'm not ashamed to be an American. However, I don't like everything that our government does. I'm not brainwashed any more than the typical American. I am a patriot, even if I don't like the president. Are you telling me you've never slagged any of our presidents? This country has never completely agreed on anything, if that's what you mean by "American Spirit". It's ok to be unhappy or angry with what your country is doing. If it wasn't, we would be Cuba. It's unreasonable to hate those who oppose your beliefs, because that is the foundation this country was built on.

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[DarkHippie]

moe, there is no one more dedicated, more devoted, who finds the princples of our country more sacred than I.

One of those principles is the right to disagree with the policies of our government. In fact, with out this feedback, the government would go unchecked, not knowing the sentiment of the people, and would no longer act as the "will of the people"

It is the right and responcibility of all americans to let the government know exactly where you stand, WITHOUT FEAR OF REPRECUSSION, that way they act as your true representatives.

This is the American Spirit: the spirt to raise you voice and be heard. not to stand and watch as your government does something that you do not agree with. America is about freedom, and I will continue to lift my voice to the sky, to march down the streets and exercise my freedoms, and my beliefs. If you think that I am Unamerican for that, then I can say nothing to move you

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[wilee]

This current regime in the White House bugs me because I believe the election was not won fairly and was taken away from the American people and Mr. Bush bought his way into office. I wouldn't have minded if he would have won outright but the whole Florida mess was just that, a mess. We have a system in our constitution that says we use the electoral college. Gore won the "popular vote" Bush won the "electoral college". To award the presidency to Gore would have been a bigger travesty, as that would be contrary to the consitutition. The electoral college has existed in our country for over 200 years, and we should just dismiss it because it was inconvienent this time?

I think there is too much of an emphasis on MONEY and not PEOPLE. I read all of this about a deficit but the rich are still getting paid aren't they? Correct me if I am wrong here.I agree everyone's money-hungry these days, but in a free society, if the person is getting paid $X a year, that is the deal they've worked out with their employer/company, and we have to live with that. Also, we should try to better ourselves to reach that point.

The healthcare issue also bothers me becasue in so many other countries it is a RIGHT to have heathcare and it is paid for by the government. Why don't we have that here. Why, if I get sick or get injured do I have to get raked across the coals to get treatment? That just does not seem fair to me. As far as I know, in Canada and Great Britain the government pays for the healthcare.Declaration of Independence: among these are the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Nowhere does it guarantee that we'll pay for every little sniffle you or your family gets.

Granted, I think that insurance costs are too high, and that goes to prove that certain businesses are more concerned with how their investors are paid than how their clients are, but only regulation can change that. We're a democratic nation, not a socialist one. Socializing healthcare will most likely cause more problems.

I also have a problem with the news media here in the US because there seems to be such an demphasis on scaring the shit out of you with the news instead of giving you the facts. When I watch the news, I want the whole story, not a fabrication or what the news wants me to know. If something bad happens, TELL ME! Don't speculate on what bad COULD happen. What kind of bullshit is that? Making up stories to garnish ratings? Come on already.I totally agree. Enough with the flashy graphics and the 5-second meaningless video clip. Get rid of the talking heads. Put down the Roget's to find more frilly language in your quest for a Pulitzer! I want direct facts and info.


I just want to see America be less corrupt and have our countries leaders be a bit more honest and not so damn shady. Show the same kind of respect to the ethnic family who is busting their ass to make at least $30,000 a year as the rich couple who is $100,000 a year. What happened to the equality? What happened to morallity?What happened to morality indeed! Too many of us are voting for the "lesser of two evils". We haven't had a president who wasn't born to a "well-to-do" family in years! Too many incumbents are too interested in lining their pockets with political contributions, and helping get their friends' legislation passed so that they can make more money. Then they cram all the worthwhile stuff into the last minutes of the sessions, if they have time. We need a higher turn-over rate in Congress. To many of these guys get so comfortable in their office, that they lose sight of the people they're working for.

I am in no way ashamed to be an American. I know that if Bush were to let the U.N. "handle" Saddam, that a few years from now, he'd have "buttloads" of WMDs pointed at not only us, but lots of countries. The U.N. says "Stop", Saddam just pays lip-service or refuses, and the U.S. leans in and says "There's consequences, here, fella." If the U.S.

[FiveB247]

Arguing politics, policies and such doesn't mean you're ashamed to be an American. In fact, it's being a good, involved patriot. I never said I was ashamed to be an American; I just don't agree with and feel many changes should be made. There's a huge difference between the two notions you are connecting.

And Moe, someone who doesn't support a war with Iraq, or someone who feels more UN inspection should occur, doesn't mean you support Iraq. You are the one adding and putting words in people's mouth.

And saying, leave if you don't like it here is a idiotic notion. And if you really want to get technical, I stay cause I want to make things better for this nation as well as others.

[TheMojoPin]

I've never been ashamed to be an American. All the years I spent overseas and the good times I had there, there was nothing, NOTHING like coming HOME to America. It's where I want to be. If I ever bring up the idea of change, it's because I see what our country is capable of and the FURTHER greatness it could accomplish, and I'm tired of small-minded politicians (Republican and Democrat) who can only think in 4-year blocks and end up holding our country back just because they're watching their asses or the asses of the guys who they want to succeed them.

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[TheBrain007]

There are a lot of good points in this thread. Now if only the media wasn't controlled by the two dominant political parties so no one gets to see the "many" other parties and views in this country. Do people realize how many people run for president and have better views and ideas for this country? There are a lot more than what you see on the news. It all comes back to the money, how sad.

Oh, and the electoral college sucks also. I am sorry to anyone who thinks it's a good idea, but it really just is not an effective means anymore. It made sense a long time ago when counting every single vote was near impossible, but it's possible now. Popular vote should be the actual win. My vote in Jersey was useless becasue I voted for other than Democrat or Republican cause I can't stand either. But because of the electoral college system, my vote was thrown out and counted as nothing.

<b>TheBrain007</b>
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"

This message was edited by TheBrain007 on 3-4-03 @ 12:51 PM

[FiveB247]

Nice post Mojo! Couldn't agree more!

[TheMojoPin]

Oh, and the electoral college sucks also. I am sorry to anyone who thinks it's a good idea, but it really just is not an effective means anymore.

The electoral college made sense when you had newly settled states with only a few hundred people in them. Now that most of the states are "fully" populated (Shut up, Alaska), it's a bit outdated. I was hoping this last election would lead to more pressure to modernize our electoral process AND a crackdown on the ever-unjust campaign finance system, but alas, we got sidetracked...

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[douchebagsean]

1. Americans are generally ignorant (not all, but most) and don't realize what is really happening in the world outside this country. American media is not a valid source for information.

2. The US government is controlled by big business and the church.

3. American media is also controlled by big business and is always a bias source.

4. This country's war policy is a joke and is never for the right reasons. This latest war is over oil concerns, and nothing more. I agree that Saddamn is a fuck and needs to be removed, but if we are looking at the greatest threat possibility, it is N Korea, not Iraq. And none of these "wars" should be completely US led.

5. We casued the problem we are facing by supplying people like Osama Bin Laden in the war with the Russians with weapons and money. Then we left their country for dead and in ruins... people seems to forget that this was how it was, that we "used" them to give Russia their Vietnam.


first of all, when was a war fought for the right reasons...must we go back to the cluster-f we call the crusades...
furthermore all nations are filled with ignorant people (been to france lately...when was the last time those turds ever won a major war that wasnt against england?)
lastly people hate us cause they aint us the leaders of those countrys fear our freedoms and our power...its like being a met fan i hate the yankees and those 26 damned series victories...why do i hate the yankees...cause the mets suck thats why...
as for causing the war by helping bin laden yeah every time the cia does something it bites us on the ass a decade later, i personally think we should lock the borders and tell the rest of the world to fuck off but that would be the easy way out...long live isolationism

[stickyfingers]

Are you telling me you've never slagged any of our presidents?



to take this one step further....what would late nite television be without bush jokes, clinton jokes, and many others....do you think Iraqi television is riddled with saddam jokes...i think not

"lemme tell ya sumpin" -CW

[Trainspotting]

The real reason is snobbery. The peace protesters are not anti-war, but anti-american.
I may not be certain about what to do with Iraq, but I love my country. The peace protesters never called for justice or expressed outrage over the 9/11 attacks. They
only came out when we were about to engage in an act of self-defense by attacking the Taliban. United for Peace headed by supermodel Leslie Cagan applies its principles selectively.

See ya!
Trainspotting

[FiveB247]

DBSean...Yes the US is controlled by big business and corporations. But the church? Obviously there are notions embedded in laws, prgrams even the constitution....but to say the Church has large influence on the government is incorrect. Most people go to church or observe any religion as an outlet, outside the realm of their immediate issues and problems (government, jobs, family, etc.). Religion is a factor in the US..but to say it controls governement is a bit much.

I believe this coming war is for oil with a side intention of stability. North Korea is a threat, but this isn't boxing where you go around looking for the biggest threat to topple it. It doesn't work that way.

As for your mentions of Bin Laden, and the Russians are out of context. The US helped train and fund many of these types of people. They did so to back an anti-communist movement which at the time was documented. I don't agree with many of the issues and agendas used by the US to fight communism during the Cold War.

Here's my thoughts on the Middle East.

With US intentions of "order" and "stability" which can easily be replaced with control of resources and such, the Middle East is a fire-bed of Anti-American sentiment. Iraqi sanctions, the flight of the Palestinians, Islamic tendencies and US support of Israel all empower a misled Arab realm. The military and economic backing of Israel is more of side note, when in fact more of the Arab world would be satisfied with both states in duel existence. Such notions have been reasserted via meetings, treaties and attempts at solutions. It is only the likes of fundamentalists which would breed satisfaction in the destruction of Israel. Such fundamentalists exist in each nation in the Middle East and therefore rise to the forefront of the issue. Iraq has enabled accompaniment for Arabs to associate US hatred, the movement of Palestine as well as fundamentalist thoughts all to the evils of the US and it's little lackey, Israel. Groups like Hezbollah, al Queda, etc, represent a religious outlet for such aggression, yet are the only methods of fighting back to their oppressed notions and processes. 9-11 exhibits to the US of such believes; rather that it is a cause for Arabs collaboration with various goals and attainments, rather then just hatred of the US as well as Islamic fundamentalism as a whole. By and far, the US policies in the area are unequal, interest oriented as well as hypocritical. Without future remedies and change to policies, the US is set to suffer more damaging fate such as those of 9-11.
(http://www.nytimes.com/cfr/international/1_FA_nift_030106_doran.html)

Ps...trainspotting..obviously you do not follow politics closely. Saying "all protesters" are anti-american is simply absurd. Chances are you don't even know many of the issues they are arguing for or against.


This message was edited by FiveB247 on 3-4-03 @ 2:27 PM

[A.J.]

Wilee, great post.

I'd add:

This current regime in the White House bugs me because I believe the election was not won fairly and was taken away from the American people and Mr. Bush bought his way into office. I wouldn't have minded if he would have won outright but the whole Florida mess was just that, a mess.


Fluff, my Old School friend, if Al Gore had won his "HOME STATE", Florida wouldn't have mattered. Christ, even Mondale won Minnesota in '84. Blame the Florida elections officials (Democrats by the way).

The healthcare issue also bothers me becasue in so many other countries it is a RIGHT to have heathcare and it is paid for by the government. Why don't we have that here. Why, if I get sick or get injured do I have to get raked across the coals to get treatment? That just does not seem fair to me. As far as I know, in Canada and Great Britain the government pays for the healthcare.


If you don't mind the high taxes, it sounds great doesn't it? Here's a German example of what your taxes would be paying for:

Proposals to trim some services have nevertheless met angry resistance from patients and unions, loath to give up special treatments such as health spa visits, cooking courses, and even insurer-funded taxi fares.


Like trying to ween a baby from the teet. This is from an article that was about, ironically, a German singer, who got breast implants on the taxpayers' nickel.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=573&ncid=573&e=1&u=/nm/20030304/od_nm/odd_germany_breasts_dc

We need a higher turn-over rate in Congress. To many of these guys get so comfortable in their office, that they lose sight of the people they're working for.

That's why we need people to pay attention to what's going on in Congress. Being able to actually name one's Representative and Senators would be a good start. This is why I vehemently oppose term limits. It's up to the people they represent to determine if they've been there long enough or not, not a piece of legislation.

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[Trainspotting]

Yes I've reviewed the websites of United For Peace and ANSWER and heard both sides of the issues. The peace protesters apply their calls for non-violence selectively in a simplistic fashion. When Israeli school children are attacked by terrorists, where are the likes of Ramsey Clark, Ron Kube, Leslie Cagan? Ah they refer to these acts as armed struggle.
So much for consistency.

See ya!
Trainspotting

[furie]

We're all patriots in our own way.

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[HBox]

We have a system in our constitution that says we use the electoral college. Gore won the "popular vote" Bush won the "electoral college". To award the presidency to Gore would have been a bigger travesty, as that would be contrary to the consitutition. The electoral college has existed in our country for over 200 years, and we should just dismiss it because it was inconvienent this time?


You're right it would have been a travestyto give the presidency to Gore, but I think most of us agree that whoever gets the most votes should win. I do not believe what happened in 2000 was right even ignoring Florida. The fact that this law still hasn't been changed saddens me.

I agree everyone's money-hungry these days, but in a free society, if the person is getting paid $X a year, that is the deal they've worked out with their employer/company, and we have to live with that. Also, we should try to better ourselves to reach that point.


I don't think that's the point. Not everyone can be rich. And I just think that no one should be living the outrageously rich life of American CEO's when honest WORKING men/women have to work their asses off 60+ hours a week and still don't have enough money to live on, let alone afford health care. I don't care if its unamerican(I don't think so), but it's just not right.

Declaration of Independence: among these are the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Nowhere does it guarantee that we'll pay for every little sniffle you or your family gets.

Granted, I think that insurance costs are too high, and that goes to prove that certain businesses are more concerned with how their investors are paid than how their clients are, but only regulation can change that. We're a democratic nation, not a socialist one. Socializing healthcare will most likely cause more problems.


If only it was just every little sniffle. It should be a right of every American to health care, and that doesn't mean health care should be socialized. There are so many people out there today without health insurance. God forbid they get something like cancer. They'll literally be left to die in the streets, unable to work, unable to pay for health care.

I am in no way ashamed to be an American. I know that if Bush were to let the U.N. "handle" Saddam, that a few years from now, he'd have "buttloads" of WMDs pointed at not only us, but lots of countries. The U.N. says "Stop", Saddam just pays lip-service or refuses, and the U.S. leans in and says "There's consequences, here, fella." If the U.S. didn't threaten war, Saddam wouldn't be doing anything to disarm right now.



That's a great point. But at the same time, if Saddam knows we are going to invade no matter what (and that has been the message of Bush), he still won't disarm. Why would he disarm if he knew he would be attacked. At this point there is no more threat; we are going to war, the only question is when.

[FiveB247]

The US media is heavily biased towards Israel. Albeit, terrorists, islamic fundamentalist as well as Judiac fundametalists are in the clear minority in the area but they make it difficult for peace processes and negotiations to occur. If you really want a perspective on Israel and many of their intentions, look no further to after 9-11 occured. Ariel Sharon was quoted as saying, it's a sad event and a tradegy, but now they know how we feel". Terrorist bombers are no better than Israel raids into primarily civilian areas. They both kill civilians at certain levels and achievements (in their eyes anyways). It's like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

[CaptClown]

I have never been ashamed to be an American nor will I ever be.

Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army

[CaptClown]

Darn! I really hate double posting.
Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army

This message was edited by CaptClown on 3-4-03 @ 3:09 PM

[HBox]

If you don't mind the high taxes, it sounds great doesn't it? Here's a German example of what your taxes would be paying for:


Quote:
Proposals to trim some services have nevertheless met angry resistance from patients and unions, loath to give up special treatments such as health spa visits, cooking courses, and even insurer-funded taxi fares.




Like trying to ween a baby from the teet. This is from an article that was about, ironically, a German singer, who got breast implants on the taxpayers' nickel.



You know, its funny. The same people who say America does everything better than the rest of the world are the first ones to point out how socialized medicine "fails" in other nations. I think we could manage to avoid paying for breast implants if we socialized medicine. Our country does not have the best healthcare in the world, we're barely in the top 10. There is defienitely room for improvement, although I'll admit that national healthcare probably isn't the answer.

[HBox]

The US media is heavily biased towards Israel. Albeit, terrorists, islamic fundamentalist as well as Judiac fundametalists are in the clear minority in the area but they make it difficult for peace processes and negotiations to occur. If you really want a perspective on Israel and many of their intentions, look no further to after 9-11 occured. Ariel Sharon was quoted as saying, it's a sad event and a tradegy, but now they know how we feel". Terrorist bombers are no better than Israel raids into primarily civilian areas. They both kill civilians at certain levels and achievements (in their eyes anyways). It's like trying to find a needle in a haystack.



You know what? How about we just get out of this mess altogether? Both sides are scumbags. For every suicide bomber the Israeli army takes it revenge. For every Israeli incursion there is a suicide bomber. Enough! This whole thing is more trouble than its worth. I'v never understood why we support Israel to the degree that we do anyway.

[TheBrain007]

first of all, when was a war fought for the right reasons...must we go back to the cluster-f we call the crusades...
furthermore all nations are filled with ignorant people (been to france lately...when was the last time those turds ever won a major war that wasnt against england?)
lastly people hate us cause they aint us the leaders of those countrys fear our freedoms and our power...its like being a met fan i hate the yankees and those 26 damned series victories...why do i hate the yankees...cause the mets suck thats why...
as for causing the war by helping bin laden yeah every time the cia does something it bites us on the ass a decade later, i personally think we should lock the borders and tell the rest of the world to fuck off but that would be the easy way out...long live isolationism

You have some good points. I agree. I have been saying for years now that the US should go isolationists.

<b>TheBrain007</b>
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"

[CaptClown]

You know what? How about we just get out of this mess altogether? Both sides are scumbags. For every suicide bomber the Israeli army takes it revenge. For every Israeli incursion there is a suicide bomber. Enough! This whole thing is more trouble than its worth. I'v never understood why we support Israel to the degree that we do anyway.

Ironically for every suicide bombing there is an Israeli army incursion. Isn't it maddening how that cycle keeps repeating itself?

Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army

This message was edited by CaptClown on 3-4-03 @ 3:14 PM

[ChickenHawk]

I'm pretty sure the war on Iraq has nothing to do with crazy "Palestinians".

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[legroommusic]

I'm proud to be an american.

I worked on a radio show where the host said she was willing to lie if asked if she was american. Right then and there i decided to leave the show.

You fuckers who live here don't realize how good you have it. All of those european countries look down on us, but they know that we have it good. We live in a country where you have economic mobility, freedom of speech and you can fuck white women. well you can fuck white girls in any country, but here, it's the best.

I love you, aggie.

[FiveB247]

Israel and Palestinians are both in the wrong....and somewhere in between extremists, terrorists and raids; lies some type of peace. Who knows if we'll ever see it?

As per Palestinians being involved in the Iraq war or at least being a factor. In the 70's, "pan-arabism" was pushed forward in the area in a way to get rid of Israel as well as step up and fight back towards the US. In the 80's Saddam Hussein was viewed by many as the forefront of a united Arab effort to fight the US. Many side with Saddam, fundamentalism as well as terrorist actions even though they don't condone them) due to the fact that they are the only outlet for such ways to fight and be heard. People like Bin Laden are hailed by fundamentalist as hero's, but by the average muslim, a way to fight back what they feel is evil US hostility and control. Many of these opinions and views are dangerous to the youth of these countries. It gives them initiative and incentive to rebel as well as do what they feel and believe to be correct. US policies in the Middle East vary pending on resources as well as interests which also makes most Middle Easterns have anti-American sediment. All of these items are connected and influence each other with negative and positive results. Invasion on Iraq, with or without post Iraq government is a huge risk that could shake up an already messy situation in that area.

IF and when we get Saddam out of power, the next step would be for the US to seriously try to grasp and pursue Israeli and Palestinian peace. If the US simply gets Saddam out of power and leaves either an unstable Iraq after the fact, or leaves some sort of control based group (similar to Japan after WWII), many will view and have reason to believe the US is pursuing the "empire" or control they already claim the US already vies for.

[DarkHippie]

hey, i thought this thread was about how protesters like me are ashamed to be Americans? Let's get it back on track. I'd like to hear more of your views on how utilizing the 1st amendement makes me a bad Patriot.

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[HBox]

hey, i thought this thread was about how protesters like me are ashamed to be Americans? Let's get it back on track. I'd like to hear more of your views on how utilizing the 1st amendement makes me a bad Patriot.



Well, if you use the 1st amendment to say "I hate America. I wipe my ass with your putrid flag and piss on your God," you are a bad patriot.

[Bama]

Hippie, it's pretty obvious from this thread that anyone who doesn't blindly follow the current White House in all it's policies is both umamerican and ignorant to the issues (i.e. brainwashed).

Let's end this silly business of disagreeing with our countries current policies regarding war and somesuch. People much smarter than us have decided the issue the "right" way and we are just being beligerent when we talk about any other path. :)

The liberal propaganda machine must be stopped!!!!!!

Long live the conservative propaganda machine!!!!

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[ChickenHawk]

It's so EASY to say both Israelis and Palestinians are wrong, but the truth is that one is always more right than the other.

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[TheMojoPin]

It's so EASY to say both Israelis and Palestinians are wrong, but the truth is that one is always more right than the other.

It's also easier to say that NEITHER side does anything for us except make us a target and get us killed. Like I've said before, to me it just looks like two sides fighting over who gets to be the bigger asshole, while we get caught in the middle and get NOTHING out of the equation. Israel is our ally? Whoopedy-shit. We can't use them in a war-type situation without unleashing WW3. Oh, goody.

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[TheMojoPin]

People much smarter than us have decided the issue the "right" way and we are just being beligerent when we talk about any other path.

The liberal propaganda machine must be stopped!!!!!!

Long live the conservative propaganda machine!!!!

Bam's right! FOX NEWS UBER ALLES.

The most amusing thing to me is that by screaming so loud about the "liberal media conspiracy", pundits on the right are able to slide in the most blatantly skewed politics without anyone making a peep. Distorting things the OTHER way doesn't "balance" out the way "liberals control the news." It just gives the public TWO inaccurate and biased news sources instead of one. Way to go, deeks.

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[TheMojoPin]

I'm pretty sure the war on Iraq has nothing to do with crazy "Palestinians".

Sarcasm...right?

Because this is one terrorist/Saddam connection we CAN prove, yet the almost baseless Al-Queda/Saddam "alliance" is all that's trotted out these days. Why make up reasons to go to war when we've got a pretty legitimate one practically shooting us in the face?

That's my biggest issue with this "war"...not whether we go or not (At this point, I want Saddam GONE), just WHY we're going to war...

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-4-03 @ 6:49 PM

[FUNKMAN]

I also have a problem with the news media here in the US because there seems to be such an demphasis on scaring the shit out of you with the news instead of giving you the facts.


this is an area where I agree:

they just captured this AlQaeda leader and the media is now telling you that:

they confiscated all kinds of information on computers that will lead to capturing terrorists all over the world

that they found evidence that terrorists may even be located in WASH DC and NYC

WHY DON"T THEY JUST FUCKING LET THESE TERRORISTS KNOW EVERYTHING OUR GOVERNMENT, FBI, and CIA KNOW SO THEY CAN MAKE SURE THEY ARE NOWHERE TO BE FOUND WHEN WE GO TO ARREST THEM...

WHY DON'T THEY JUST REPORT THE CAPTURE OF THE LEADER AND THATS IT. EVERYTHING ELSE IS THE CIA/FBI/GOVT's BUSINESS...

the Media's speculations drive me up the wall...

<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/covers/livealbum100.gif">

[fluffernutter]

Thank you for the education there Wilee and AJ. I never said I was politically educated, I just have opinions. Just excercising my free speech.

Now, I will shut up and get back to doodling.

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[TheMojoPin]

Best "Onion Other News" EVER...

<img src=http://graphics.theonion.com/pics_3908/fox_news_reporter.jpg>
Fox News Reporter Asks The Questions Others Are Too Smart To Ask

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[reeshy]

I think it is just a sign of the times that some people are expressing doubts and delusions with our country. The media constantly bombards us with their liberal views, our politicians (the majority) are only out to further their own agendas, the lobbyists in Washington are only interested in their own causes, etc. there is a general feeling in this country of apathy and gloom. Most people that I talk to just dont have the confidence in our government that they did years ago.
I, myself, still feel that there is hope for this great country of mine. I served in our Armed Forces during a time when it was unpopular to do so. I worked for a city government partly because I felt that there was a need for my services for my fellow citizens. I know it sounds corny, but I still feel that way. Hopefully, that spirit is still alive in the bosoms of our fellow Americans,
God Bless America!

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[A.J.]

Thank you for the education there Wilee and AJ. I never said I was politically educated, I just have opinions. Just excercising my free speech.

Now, I will shut up and get back to doodling.


I'm sorry if I came across as if I were attacking you Fluff -- that wasn't my intention. I just can't help but take issue with the whole "Bush stole the election" mantra.

And the German article was meant simply to show how even the best-intended government programs can (and most likely will be) abused by some.

Besides, I'm only mad at you because you left me off the front page picture! :)

You raised valid points about electoral problems, health care, the media and money in politics: so keep on posting your opinions!

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A Skidmark production.

[Mxyzptlk]

I just can't help but take issue with the whole "Bush stole the election" mantra.


The real story should have been how Al Gore lost in his home state of Tennessee; then the whole Florida mess wouldn't have mattered.

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[LiquidCourage]

I'm not, and fuck anybody who is.

[LiquidCourage]

. We casued the problem we are facing by supplying people like Osama Bin Laden in the war with the Russians with weapons and money. Then we left their country for dead and in ruins... people seems to forget that this was how it was, that we "used" them to give Russia their Vietnam



How did we cause that?
We gave them a bunch of missle launchers to shoot down Russian helicopters.

We never issued them boxcutters and taught them how to fly 747s.

[LiquidCourage]

I'd like to hear more of your views on how utilizing the 1st amendement makes me a bad Patriot.

You're a hippie, not a Patriot.
You can only be one or the other, not both.

[Se7en]

I can see partly what Moe is upset about.

It's the frustration that comes with a perceived ingratitude towards this country.

It's like this basketball chick who turned her back on the flag. Does she have the right to do it? Absolutely. I can't tell you how many men and women have DIED for her right to say "Fuck You" to this country.

But there is, amongst some of us - I believe Moe, and certainly myself - a feeling of anger at a ingratitude of it all.

It gets frustrating to see people we who say they "love" the country, and then post exceedingly long and verbose paragraphs detailing exactly how WRONG if not EVIL and CORRUPT this country is. And you know, those arguments may be perfectly valid - but at some point, you get TIRED of hearing them. You get frustrated. And that's when you get comments like "If you don't love this country, then leave it!"

It's perceived ingratitude. Even with all of the shitty things that are wrong with this country, it's STILL the greatest country on the face of the planet, and isn't nearly as evil and corrupt as....say, France would have you believe. So I perfectly understand where Moe is coming from. At some point, the criticisms just become white noise which doesn't enlighten, only annoys.

The healthcare issue also bothers me becasue in so many other countries it is a RIGHT to have heathcare and it is paid for by the government. Why don't we have that here. Why, if I get sick or get injured do I have to get raked across the coals to get treatment? That just does not seem fair to me.

Look at the level of Medicaid fraud out there. Do you really think that some universal health care system wouldn't be absolutely abused out the ass in a similar fashion?

The electoral college made sense when you had newly settled states with only a few hundred people in them. Now that most of the states are "fully" populated (Shut up, Alaska), it's a bit outdated. I was hoping this last election would lead to more pressure to modernize our electoral process AND a crackdown on the ever-unjust campaign finance system, but alas, we got sidetracked...

Many have called it outdated, but it's still a better - and more equitable - method to ensure that EVERY state has at least some value in the election process.

Dems & Libs can crowe about Gore all they want, but the populace vote is unfair in a very simple way: A presidential candidate, based on the numbers alone, would only have to carry roughly 5 states out of the 50 to win the ENTIRE election. Thus, the other 45 would be screwed.

I may not be certain about what to do with Iraq, but I love my country. The peace protesters never called for justice or expressed outrage over the 9/11 attacks. They
only came out when we were about to engage in an act of self-defense by attacking the Taliban.

You've never been to Berkeley, CA, have you.

They were practically ready to secede from the Union because we dared to attack the Taliban.

Not everyone can be rich. And I just think that no one should be living the outrageously rich life of American CEO's when honest WORKING men/women have to work their asses off 60+ hours a week and still don't have enough money to live on, let alone afford health care. I don't care if its unamerican(I don't think so), but it's just not right.

I'll probably catch shit for this, but what do I care.

Here's a real travesty for you: we pay professional athletes millions of dollars for PLAYING A FUCKING GAME.

Yeah, they have skills, and yeah, the owners make hundreds of millions on them, but honestly, I'm less upset that the CEO of Merrill-Lynch, for instance, makes a shitload of money every year than I am that A-Rod is getting dozens of millions. We have soldiers in our military who don't make in a year what he makes in ONE game, and in the grand scheme of things, their actions are a whole hell of a lot more important than his goddamn batting average.

The US media is heavily biased towards Israel.

As th

[FiveB247]

LC....you can be any type of person and a patriot as well.

(In jest I mention) By the way...the US actually did teach a few of those terrorists how to fly...remember that whole Florida school?

[Death Metal Moe]

look what I did!

Stay tuned for my next SHOCK POST:

Hitler was misunderstood and probably would have turned out OK if only he was hugging trees and shit like that.

he he he he he he

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[LiquidCourage]

(In jest I mention) By the way...the US actually did teach a few of those terrorists how to fly...remember that whole Florida school?


Well, yes, but that wasn't some US endorsed type of thing.


And no, not all people can be patriots, hippies an example.

[TheMojoPin]

By the way...the US actually did teach a few of those terrorists how to fly...remember that whole Florida school?

Oh, fucking come ON.

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[TheMojoPin]

Dems & Libs can crowe about Gore all they want, but the populace vote is unfair in a very simple way: A presidential candidate, based on the numbers alone, would only have to carry roughly 5 states out of the 50 to win the ENTIRE election. Thus, the other 45 would be screwed.

But they still would have gotten the majority of the populace...which is kinda my point. Emphasis is being placed on states, when it's the amount of people is what you would think matters. The issue shouldn't be where these people live...just the fact that they're in this country, period, and the majority voted for who they wanted to be president. If you do away with the electoral college, there's no point in the states being "represented equally" since it's based on the general population's choice as a whole. The president's actions are going to effect the majority of the populace, and if that majority only lives in five states, well, tough. They're still the majority. That's how "one person equals one vote" would have to work for it to be an even playing field from person to person.

And this isn't a defense of Gore, because quite frankly, I didn't vote for him, I have never voted for him, and I never would vote for him. I just think the situation is antiquated and needs to be "updated".

And you know, those arguments may be perfectly valid - but at some point, you get TIRED of hearing them. You get frustrated. And that's when you get comments like "If you don't love this country, then leave it!"

So can't the "other side" be rightfully frustrated when all they're met with is people who don't even bother trying to listen or consider an alternative to their own viewpoint? A lot of these arguments are indeed wrong and misguided...but plenty are very valid and very important, and to just dismiss them because you're "tired" of it is just indicative of a lot of things these people are saying is "wrong" with the country (Politcal and social apathy, the "I only want things to work for ME, everyone else be damned" mentality), and it just goads them to fight even harder. So it's a self-defeating tactic.

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[FiveB247]

What did I write just before that statement...."In jest I mention". I was just playing devils advocate at best....but it fit the answer correctly. The US obviously didn't have intentions of training these people to do such acts.

[The Jays]

It gets frustrating to see people we who say they "love" the country, and then post exceedingly long and verbose paragraphs detailing exactly how WRONG if not EVIL and CORRUPT this country is.


True. Who really wants to hear these pessimistic view about our country? I mean, do we ever do anything good? It's fucking tiresome. Nobody wants to hear this negative stuff. How often do people talk about the good stuff we do? It's nothing but bitch bitch bitch.

<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> Fuck what you heard.</font>
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[TheMojoPin]

It's nothing but bitch bitch bitch.

You gotta make up for the fat, lazy shits out there. They good news is, they're so willing to take anything that's shovelled to them, they don't really put up that much of a fight.

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[The Jays]

... They can keep lamenting on how shitty a country we are, but where's the solutions to these problems? All it is is listing all these things that are wrong with the country, and no thought on solutions...

<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> Fuck what you heard.</font>
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[TheMojoPin]

... They can keep lamenting on how shitty a country we are, but where's the solutions to these problems? All it is is listing all these things that are wrong with the country, and no thought on solutions...

Some just protest. Some start letter writing campaigns. Some become lobbyists. Some run for office. Some form citizen "watch groups". I mean, there's only so much "the people" can do except try and get the attention of the people who are supposedly representing us and hopefully get across the idea that a certain segment of the population, THEIR voters, are thinking a certain way. And some of us are trying our hardest. You're very right, too many just talk the talk without doing actually trying to DO anything...they just want attention or just want to make a scene or push their own private agenda. But I could never, NEVER just sit on my ass and just "take" everything that was told to me because quite frankly, things ARE NOT THAT GOOD. Not even close. Things ARE good for a great many of us, and I'm luckily one of those people. It may be sappy, but I just flat out care about too many other people to just sit on my butt and pretend like everything is hunky-dory and perfect for everyone. It would be unfair to myself and everyone around me. That's just how I am. I don't look at what I do as "attacking America"...I look at it as "watching out for the guy that doesn't have it as good as I do." Maybe that's just how I was raised, but fuck it, it's how I am. Deal with it.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-5-03 @ 12:48 AM

[HBox]

Nobody wants to hear this negative stuff.


Oh. poor you. God forbid you hear anything negative or you'll run to you mommy crying about all those tree-hugging, hippy left-wing liberals.

You want to hear something good? I love the fact that I can speak my mind, no matter how many people disagree. I love that I have opportunites that are not available in most of the nations of the world. I love that there is this kind of argument over this country. We aren't a nation of mindless drones who follow our dictator for life in a dive off a cliff. I love that the government is assisting me in getting a higher education becasue I couldn't afford it on my own. This is a great country, but it isn't perfect. That's my whole point. I'd rather spend my time doing what I feel I need to to improve this country.

[ADF]

It's all relative. Sure, our government makes a lot of mistakes, but it's a pretty big government and makes thousands of decisions on a daily basis. It's bound to make bad policy decisions, some of them major. You're not un-American for noticing mistakes or disagreeing with a policy. Still, if you're going to disagree, do so in a constructive manner.


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[Recyclerz]

Is this what it takes to be a patriotic American?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/04/prayer.walkout.ap/index.html

I hope not.



[b]Free Yerdaddy![b]

[FiveB247]

No one wants to hear the negative stuff? Isn't that the same kinda attitude everyone always throws at liberals for the 'pussification of the US'? Did your little league baseball games always end in a tie so no one was a loser?

Be a man and take the good with the bad. If you take one or the other and not both...you're living in an illusion.

[Se7en]

Yes, Jays hit the nail on the head - at times the negativity can be overwhelming.

Perhaps I'm a bit sensitive to it, as I go to a radical left-wing law school (that's not me being insulting either - they PRIDE themselves on that reputation), so I'm inundated with this rhetoric ALL DAY LONG. God, it gives me headaches. I feel like screaming, "I am here for an education, I do not care about your politics."

"Take the bad with the good!"

Read my initial post again - if there's enough negativity, enough criticism, it can build to a level where your message DOES NOT get through, at least not to me.

To me, it all becomes white noise which just sounds like "bitch, piss, moan, bitch, piss, moan, etc."

Again, maybe I'm a little sensitive to this, but at some point, the negativity just becomes tedious. People start to sound like a fucking parrot. It all seems like one, big, sorrow note that does not change.

I'm sure the rabid nationalists sound the same way to the criticizers, but wadda ya want from me - I'm overly negative on just about everything in the universe except my country. My country, I give the benefit of the doubt.

<img border="0" src="http://Se7enRFNet.homestead.com/files/se7en.jpg" width="300" height="100">

I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.

"I was here before the oceans turned black with life, and when the deserts are white with death I will remain."
---Saint Iago

[TheMojoPin]

My country, I give the benefit of the doubt.

Which is just what "The Man" wants...

SHAZAM! Look how happy that bitch is...

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[FiveB247]

Mojo...is that a pic of E' dad?

[TheMojoPin]

"Whaddup, dawgs? We rollin' tonight?"

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[TheMojoPin]

Here's a perfect example of how I don't get pissed off at AMERICA, but certain people who claim to do really, REALLY stupid things in her name.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030305/od_nm/iraq_usa_shirt_dc_2

So this guy is escorted by police from a mall for not taking off a "Give Peace A Chance" t-shirt. The mall staff used the reasoning that the mall is private property and they can make the rules as to who can stay (Which is basically true...we've used it in my store to toss abusive customers out on their ass.)...but the stupid thing is that HE HAD JUST BOUGHT THE FUCKING T-SHIRT IN THE MALL ITSELF. If you want the guy out for wearing it, fine, it's your call...but don't spew hypocrisy all over the place by selling the damn things in the mall you're trying to "protect".

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-5-03 @ 12:52 PM

[Death Metal Moe]

Kinda reminds me how you can get rolling papers ANYWHERE these days but Pot is still illegal.

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[wilee]

I'm enjoying this thread...

Fluffernutter, I agreed with a couple of your points, I just don't think that medicine should be socialized (and that's what it is if the government runs it) and the whole thing about the electoral college was simply to say that this is the rule that is currently in effect (and was in effect at the time of the last election). Despite the fact that there was a disparity between the popular and electoral votes, you can't simply dismiss the rule because it's inconvienent this time. If it were repealed from the constitution, that'd be a different story.

My opinion of someone being unpatriotic means that they show disrespect to the country, flag or its citizens. You want to make your statement that we shouldn't go to war with Iraq? That's fine, don't light a flag on fire, because I don't equate that with "not going to war with Iraq", I equate that to "This is what I think of this country.", and so do many more people.

People who protest need to get their point across, but burning flags, not facing the flag during the national anthem, or starting "riots" have specific messages, none of which is the "message you're trying to get across". It's like shooting a pigeon to try to convey "It's cold out today." If you respect your country and consider yourself a patriot, you should display your respect to its citizens and flag and public officials. Yes, you can disagree, but that's what initiative and referendum are for. Work to effect change, not simply try to shock.

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[travis151]

I don't care if people are ashamed to be Americans, who cares all I know is that I care and proud of what my country has done in only about 300 years. Of course as acountry we have made mistakes( waiting to long to fight back in both world wars) and we'll make more mistakes. You have a right to protest the war and say it's unneeded but I don't hear any other solutions besides let the inspecters do their jobs, that is fine aslong as these inspections go on for years and try to cover the whole country. Because once these U.N. inspecters leave Saddam will start his war machine up again. That's not just throwing around false statments he's done this three times already 81',91',98'. Does anybody watch the news or the history channel anymore?

Red Sox=More Better

[FiveB247]

The electoral college is outdated and has been for quite some time. But you can't blame it for someone getting elected or not.

Protesting, free speech or any similar items are just do and legal in our nation and such actions provide for the freedoms we hold dear.

As for burning flags or turning your back on the flag. Until such laws are passed saying otherwise....it's free speech. And the meanings behind why people do them are taken from which perspective you view it through. The flag is a symbol. You are the one making it's meaning. No two people hold the same exact view towards a specific symbol. It's speculative and interpretive.

[Death Metal Moe]

As for burning flags or turning your back on the flag. Until such laws are passed saying otherwise....it's free speech. And the meanings behind why people do them are taken from which perspective you view it through. The flag is a symbol. You are the one making it's meaning. No two people hold the same exact view towards a specific symbol. It's speculative and interpretive.


What else but AMERICA and FREEDOM does our flag stand for? This argument is the worst one you've brought to the table to date.

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[FiveB247]

The flag represents what ever you make it. Whether it be freedom or whatever. Obviously people who burn it in the Middle east or elsewhere don't think of it in the same notions you do! Just because you think it means one thing doesn't mean the entire US population agrees with your definition of what the flag represents. Just like religion and spiritualism, it's interpretive and can't be defined.

PS...you're not going to try and 'cut me off' are you?

[Bergalad]

The flag represents what ever you make it. Whether it be freedom or whatever. Obviously people who burn it in the Middle east or elsewhere don't think of it in the same notions you do! Just because you think it means one thing doesn't mean the entire US population agrees with your definition of what the flag represents. Just like religion and spiritualism, it's interpretive and can't be defined.

When you see a white flag with a red maple leaf on it, do you think of Fall? No, you think instantly of Canada, just like if you see any other nation's flag. You don't think, "oh, that represents free health care!". The flag is the representation of the country, not of an idea or philosophy. This was clearly established by the United States Congress when they entered into US law the following phrase:
...to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic FOR WHICH IT STANDS...". The US Congress says it represents/stands for/equals/ America itself, not an idea or thought. Not much to interpret there.

[silera]

The US Congress says it represents/stands for/equals/ America itself, not an idea or thought. Not much to interpret there.

I don't think the US Congress has the power to decide what I should feel something represents.





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[FiveB247]

Exactly Bergalad...it association with a nation. Not anything more.....you can attach any idea or notion you prefer to it. And as for Congress, they do not rule or control people's beliefs, views, perspective or such (even though at times they try to). It's all interpretive.

[wilee]

I don't think the US Congress has the power to decide what I should feel something represents.I'll have to try that if I get pulled over for running a red light or stop sign.

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[silera]

I'll have to try that if I get pulled over for running a red light or stop sign.

That's just a retarded argument.

Get over yourselves please.





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[FiveB247]

There's a big difference between law and belief. Congress can't pass laws to make people belief things.

[wilee]

That's just a retarded argument.

So, I'm not allowed to interpret symbols how I feel?

Oh, and FiveB247:
As for burning flags or turning your back on the flag. Until such laws are passed saying otherwise....it's free speech.

TITLE 4 > CHAPTER 1 > Sec. 4.

Sec. 4. - Pledge of allegiance to the flag; manner of delivery

The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, ''I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'', should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute.

TITLE 4 > CHAPTER 1 > Sec. 8.

Sec. 8. - Respect for flag

No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor....

and those look like laws to me.


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[Bergalad]

There's a big difference between law and belief. Congress can't pass laws to make people belief things.

Do you believe you have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? And why do you believe that? Oh, because it's in the Constitution, which is the law of the land.

Really it doesn't matter if you believe what the Congress says the flag is or not. The fact is the flag is the representation of the United States, just as the Bald Eagle is. At least the Bald Eagle is protected since it's endangered. Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean you should disrespect it.

[FiveB247]

Wilee, you can interpret a symbol to mean anything you please. But that doesn't mean everyone agrees with your definition of it nor does it mean your definition is correct.

And obviously you can find some code or law saying what you are supposed to do....but until Congress is legitimately enforcing these items (which these type never are)...it's open for people to do with consent from the government (due to their lack of enforcement). It's an unspoken right to do so. Just like speeding in your car. But that gets enforced. Flag burning and turning your back on the flag amongst others are not.

Bergalad...if you don't believe in something you shouldn't disrespect it? You are completely missing the point here, these items are protest (when referring to Americans disrespecting flag or the pledge). Americans have to right to protest and that doesn't mean they are disrespecting the nation. You obviously can't grasp the concept or difference between disagreement and hate for (ie anti-american as you call people).

And excuse if I don't have a good laugh about the bald eagle being endangered. Considering the environmental policies this country encompasses, as well as the animal treatment. I'm not a crazy like people in PETA either...so don't classify me with them. But thanks...I got a chuckle out of that one.

[silera]

You can do or say whatever the fuck you like as long as you don't break the law. As it stands, I'm not required by law to say the pledge of allegiance nor am I required to stand up when the national anthem is sung, nor am I required to hang a flag from my home.

That's the beauty of being American.

Your logic is flawed and your point is moot.

A flag will mean to people whatever they want it to mean to them, laws cannot dictate how much or how little people value it.

Furthermore, attaching so much importance to an object seems more like idolatry than actual understanding of the principles for which that object stands.

A flag is, simply put, pieces of material sewn together. What is represents is and always will be in the eye of the beholder.



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[shamus mcfitzy]

I agree everyone's money-hungry these days, but in a free society, if the person is getting paid $X a year, that is the deal they've worked out with their employer/company, and we have to live with that. Also, we should try to better ourselves to reach that point.


I know that I don't want to aspire to be something that I don't want to be. I am planning on getting a history/poly sci degree in college, and everytime that i say this to someone they ask me the sam question "Are you going into law?" Because being a lawyer has gotten so much prestige because it's a big money job. But I don't want to go into law, I want to really help people and teach. However, in most states, a life of teaching means a life of subpar money.

I don't hate America, I like other places such as Canada better. And I'm pretty sure that flag-burning is legal, Texas v. White says so. Maybe that law was enacted afterward, but i know as of 1989, flag-burning was legal.

[Bergalad]

I am not espousing bowing down to the flag. It is a symbol. A symbol that, when seen by any person on the planet, immediately thinks "America". A symbol that 300,000 US troops are wearing on their right shoulders as they ready for war with Iraq. For some of us, we salute the flag as it is raised and lowered each day with both great pride and sacrifice. It is the physical representation to us of the people and the ideas of this nation; two things I am proud to serve. You are certainly free to burn or turn your back on the flag. I ask only that when you enjoy that freedom, please take a moment to at least give respect to those soldiers who have given so much to keep that symbol flying.

Now, que the Anthem:
Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

[TooCute]

At least the Bald Eagle is protected since it's endangered.


No it's not. It is currently on the threatened species list, but will probably be taken off of that in the near future.

Go to the Pacific Northwest. They're like pigeons.

I don't understand how a scavenger like the bald eagle ever becamse the national symbol in the first place.

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[Bergalad]

Go to the Pacific Northwest. They're like pigeons.

Born and raised, thank you. Seen about 10 there my whole life.

[Death Metal Moe]

I'm not required by law to say the pledge of allegiance nor am I required to stand up when the national anthem is sung, nor am I required to hang a flag from my home.


YEA! Why show respect or be proud to live in a free society! Fuck that!

And as for Foreigners burning our flag. I see that in a lot of countries where Anti-American propaganda spread by STATE controlled TV is the ONLY INFORMATION the masses get on the US. So I don't blame them too much when they burn our flag. They've been lied to.

Also, a lot of these protests are started by the state and are a little more than 'encouraged" to attend.

There are some that burn our flag in well informed countries too, I know. This is just hatred and I don't think anyone takes these people seriously. I know I never did. Jealously is funny.

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[FiveB247]

Moe...many people in this thread and in others have mentioned or made cases regarding the US controlled media and their ties to business interests and corporate control.

So with that said...how is it you only find it relevant to pass over the US biased media (propaganda)..and key in on other state based items? If you're going to mention one seems like you have to mention the other.

[wilee]

I'm not required by law to say the pledge of allegiance nor am I required to stand up when the national anthem is sung, nor am I required to hang a flag from my home.

Those quotes for FiveB247 are from the U.S. code, in other words, LAWS. It also covers such things as arbitration, commerce and trade, crimes and ciminal procedure, education, Internal Revenue Code, "intoxicating liquors", public lands, and yes, "War and National Defense".

When the national anthem is sung, and someone doesn't stand, that sounds like disrespect to me. (Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 8)

And FiveB, if they're NOT ENFORCED??? What kind of bullshit is that? All written laws are ENFORCED. Just because you can speed every so often and get away with it, doesn't mean its not enforced. This PC thing is getting too out of hand! Here's a little example for you.

"I can burn/disrespect the flag because it's free speech and you can't infringe on my right to free speech. It says so in the Constitution."

That's the argument right? Explain "hate crimes" where if you use a racial slur during the commission of a crime, you get a steeper punishment. Yes, I know a crime was committed, but if 2 people commit the same crime, but one uses "the N word" he gets a steeper penalty. Isn't what he says protected as free speech? Remember, the first amendment says "Congress shall make NO LAW... ...abridging the freedom of speech..."

Slander. People are allowed to sue you for what you say about them. But if you can't abridge the right to free speech, shouldn't you be able to say whatever you want? Even about another person, organization, etc? Why can they sue? Sure, it's not nice to say bad things about people, but hey, it's free speech. They shouldn't be allowed to sue.

Radio and TV: Why is there a delay in live radio or TV? You can't say certain words right now? Why? The government says so. Granted, it doesn't bother me to hear the occasion "fuck" or "shit" on TV or radio, but why is it regulated at all? They're public airways, aren't they?

Hey, let's not stop at free speech, what about the "right to bear arms"? Just to put it in perspective, here's the line right from the 2nd amendment:

"...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

What are all these gun control laws for? Why are certain people not allowed to have guns? Why is there a waiting period in various states? Sounds like a violation of the second amendment to me. Don't tell me about safer streets, we're arguing rights and the constitution here.

There's more, but this post is long enough right now.

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[FiveB247]

Wille...what I said was exactly correct. It maybe written...but it is unenforced law. Cases have come and gone before courts and even the Supreme Court regarding these matters and never once have the courts suggested anything otherwise.

I could go burn a flag in front of an officer if I please and he would not arrest me for that specific act. He may try and beat me up out of utter hate...but not arrest. (this is an example..i wouldn't actually burn the flag).

And if you want to refer to PC and bs rhetoric...I just happen to read a short article in Rolling Stone regarding the last Gulf War. How the US wouldn't let reporters or photographers report on anything and how it was all being covered up under the notion of "protection" to american citizens. Hiding of casualties, amongst other items...that's what this is about. Being told one thing by the govenment and them hiding and covering up what really goes on.

[TooCute]

Quote:
Go to the Pacific Northwest. They're like pigeons.


Born and raised, thank you. Seen about 10 there my whole life.


Good for you. They're still not endangered and I still think that you all are need to rethink your position that people who don't respect something (a flag, or in my case, those dirty scavengers, the bald eagles) - or what they believe it stands for (and yes, perhaps the flag stands for 'the republic'. What the hell is the republic? I doubt that there is a single person in the entire US that agrees with every single thing that 'the republic' stands for - or could even agree on what that 'republic' is in the first place!) - should be forced to show false respect for it.

Unless you really want to live in a false little world where everyone is always forced to be nice and say nice things and always agree with you and... wow. Sounds like rf.net.

Honestly I'm sick of everyone who thinks that people who are anti-war are anti-american. In fact this all is making me sick of politics in its entirety. Shame on me, bad american, I'll wait fo you all to deport me now. Or would you prefer to shoot me because I'm a brain-washed leftist liberal moron (even though I'm not. I just happen to find all this bitching about them to be getting repetetive).

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[silera]

YEA! Why show respect or be proud to live in a free society! Fuck that!


I show my respect by working hard and paying my taxes.

I never stated that I don't do these things. I simply stated that it is not required of me.

You can quote all the laws you want, but none of these address the fact that our laws do NOT govern what we think.

There are common sense restrictions on our speech, to prevent riots and stupid ones that are born of morality convictions. However, what the flag represents, what I feel about our government or the current state of international affairs, and how I choose to exhibit my patriotism or lack there of cannot be dictated by law because it is oxymoronic.





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[FiveB247]

You go girl! (snap , snap). :)

[DarkHippie]

Has this argument really boiled down to flag burning? how often do you really see someone burn the flag as a protest anyway? Do the actions of a minority make the majority guilty?

This argument has come down to semantics: how do you honor the flag? how do you say the pledge? What do you do when you protest? These are all well and good, but they are in the long run, trivial.

what matters most is what you feel. we are all American. Obviously we don't agree on anything, but we can agree to love our country. We love the principles behind it. And to call someone Unamerican because they have different views as you, that, my friends, that is Unamerican!

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[DJEvelEd]

Slavery was supported by our government for a long time. If I was alive during the time of Dredd Scott I might have burned a flag to show my distaste. I might have burned a flag when they were slaughtering Indians too. I may burn a flag to protest the drug war but it would only be a drawing of the flag so I wouldn't get in trouble.

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