Iraqi Soldiers Ready To Surrender

[NewYorkDragons80]

Iraqi Soldiers Ready to Surrender

There are lots of jokes about French soldiers carrying white flags with them, but now it's the Iraqi troops who are preparing to surrender.

"Morale is low in the Iraqi army and many soldiers are preparing white flags of surrender, we are told by someone in northern Iraq who recently interviewed two defectors from Saddam Hussein's army," the Washington Times reported today.


One, a captain who defected from the 5th Mechanized Division of the 1st Corps, based near the northern city of Kirkuk, said the heavy division was only 35 percent combat-effective. Morale is so low that younger soldiers speak openly about surrendering before a shot is fired, he said.

The second escapee, a senior noncommissioned officer, defected from the same division's 34th Brigade, based south of the northern city of Mosul. He said that only 6 of the 28 tanks in his care worked.

"He said the whole division was at about 25 percent effectiveness and most soldiers were hiding their white flags," said the Times' source.

Intelligence sources in northern Iraq, where CIA Special Operations Group officers and Army Special Forces are active, report dozens of defectors in recent weeks.

The folks in Baghdad, meanwhile, are still ignoring their dictator's order Wednesday to dig trenches in preparation for war, the Boston Globe reported today.

"Five years ago, people would come in and change at the slightest hint of fighting," a 25-year-old named Salman told the Globe. "Now we are used to this atmosphere."
http://newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2003/2/28/151351

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[DarkHippie]

yes, Iraq is obviously a military powerhouse and a threat to the entire world.

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[Bergalad]

yes, Iraq is obviously a military powerhouse and a threat to the entire world.

Tell that to the thousands of Kuwaitis that were tortured and killed by Iraq in 1990-1991. I thought hippies were supposed to care about that kind of thing, but I guess it's only when it suits your agenda.

[Snoogans]

Uh, by being a threat to the world, that point about kuwait would only enhance what hippie said. So you dont really make any sence

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[Bergalad]

Uh, by being a threat to the world, that point about kuwait would only enhance what hippie said. So you dont really make any sence

So I guess you feel that as long as they don't threaten the WHOLE world, it's all just fine. Who cares about what they did to anyone other than us! I think you take him too literally.

[shamus mcfitzy]

So I guess you feel that as long as they don't threaten the WHOLE world, it's all just fine. Who cares about what they did to anyone other than us! I think you take him too literally.


well yeah.....whatever happened to a country doing what it wants......the US does it enough. The US wouldn't have given a crap about Kuwait if there wasn't something to gain, so i don't see the US as any better. Essentially you could say that the US tortured and killed thousands of Iraqis as well. So....whatever

[NewYorkDragons80]

The US wouldn't have given a crap about Kuwait if there wasn't something to gain, so i don't see the US as any better.
The US is the biggest peacekeeping force in the world. They are on 6 continents helping oppressed people everywhere. Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

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[DarkHippie]

Tell that to the thousands of Kuwaitis that were tortured and killed by Iraq in 1990-1991.
Bergalad, the level of your retardation never ceases to amaze me. 12 years ago, Iraq WAS a military stronghold. Now their soldiers are ready to surender before war has even been declared. Yet Bush is still trying to convince the world that their "mighty army" is a threat to the world as we know it. and YOU, you in your infinite wisdom, is trying to spin my comment so that what took place over a decade ago has revelevance to an army where the soldiers are sucking camel d for protein? haven't you ever heard of an edit button?

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[shamus mcfitzy]

The US is the biggest peacekeeping force in the world.


I don't think "peacekeeping" would piss so many people off, the ones who are being "helped" included. The US is "peacekeeping" by spreading themselves over the entire world. Conquering through culture is still conquering nonetheless. I can only hope that when Saddam no longer rules Iraq (through whatever circumstances), the new government will know better than to be a puppet.

[NewYorkDragons80]

the new government will know better than to be a puppet.
It has never been American policy to expect a foreign head of state to be a "puppet." I am not worried. Look at Afghanistan, we gave power to Hamid Karzai and to King Zahir Shah (Well, at least a ceremonial position) while they derided US bombing of Afghanistan.

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[ADF]

It has never been American policy to expect a foreign head of state to be a "puppet."


Ha, that's a good one. Do you also believe in faeries and little elves? They're real!

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[Bergalad]

Essentially you could say that the US tortured and killed thousands of Iraqis as well. So....whatever

Yes, you could say that, but you would be wrong.
Bergalad, the level of your retardation never ceases to amaze me.

Nice personal attack. Guess there's no more 'peace and love' from the hippies.
Yet Bush is still trying to convince the world that their "mighty army" is a threat to the world as we know it

No, that is not at all what Bush is saying. When has he even mentioned the Iraqi military? He, along with the ENTIRE UNITED FUCKING NATIONS said that Iraq's chemical, biological, and nuclear programs are forbidden and must be stopped.
and YOU, you in your infinite wisdom, is trying to spin my comment so that what took place over a decade ago has revelevance to an army where the soldiers are sucking camel d for protein? haven't you ever heard of an edit button?

It's nice that you think the Iraqi army will just 'give up'. They started to surrender in droves last time, even to CNN crews, but still 148 americans died and another 458 were wounded. Easy for you to say that the Iraqi military will be easy for the US to beat while you are sitting safely at home. How courageous of you.

I don't think "peacekeeping" would piss so many people off, the ones who are being "helped" included. The US is "peacekeeping" by spreading themselves over the entire world. Conquering through culture is still conquering nonetheless.

I'm sorry Shamus, but were you over in Bosnia when the US and Nato went in there to separate the combatants? Did you see the relief and happiness on the Bosnian Muslim's faces knowing that we were there to put an end to mass rapes and genocide by the Serbs? Yeah, you're right, they really hated us being there as peacekeepers. Very insightful. And when we put a puppet in charge of the country...oh wait, that's right, they freely elected their own government officials. Puppets indeed...





This message was edited by Bergalad on 3-1-03 @ 8:03 PM

[Spank Daddy]

Yet Bush is still trying to convince the world that their "mighty army" is a threat to the world

Bush talks about Saddam, his sons, and his inner core of generals that hold dangerous WMD and rob the Iraqi people of freedom, not that rag tag of an "army" that every one knows will not fight long. Maybe you should check your level of retardation, if you can find the time to take your head out of the Iraqi sand.

[shamus mcfitzy]

but still 148 americans died and another 458 were wounded. Easy for you to say that the Iraqi military will be easy for the US to beat while you are sitting safely at home.


In fact i think those statistics actually do mean that the Iraqis will be easy to beat....I usually don't see 148 people dying as enormous amounts of war casualties.

He, along with the ENTIRE UNITED FUCKING NATIONS said that Iraq's chemical, biological, and nuclear programs are forbidden and must be stopped.


Yeah but basically only HE WANTS to kill innocent Iraqis at the drop of a hat. The rest of the UN tends to like to resolve things without killing people. With the war against Iraq it tends to be the US and UK speaking up and others agreeing, not wanting to make trouble. And that's the reason that i don't really care what the UN "thinks", because the US and UK are the only countries whose voices are heard. I would like to find out what countries actually think, but it is hard when our media spins everything so that countries like France and Germany look evil and also cares only about things which are earth-shattering.

I do admit that Serbia is a good example of a time that "peacekeeping" was effective. And I was wrong in that respect.

[DarkHippie]

Bush talks about Saddam, his sons, and his inner core of generals that hold dangerous WMD and rob the Iraqi people of freedom
would these be the WMD that no one has found? Of course Rumsfeld said that the fact that we can't find them is proof that they must exist, and he's on TV alot, so we have to believe him.

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[Se7en]

Intelligence reports link the WMD to be held by Iraq's Republican Guard, who are mobile. Iraqi officials merely trot out the U.N. inspectors to sites where the weapons USED to be held.

And anyway, the inspectors aren't really trying that hard to find them anyway. They do need several more months of worth of time, isn't that right?

The reason why the WMD argument hasn't been defeated by the anti-war position is because everyone knows Saddam had those weapons just a brief time ago.....and there's no proof that he got rid of them. THAT's the key here. The anti-war group can argue all they want that he doesn't have them.....but there's no definitive proof that he's destroyed any of it (a few old mustard gas canisters don't count).

If there was, than the inspectors would be out of there, and the world really would be against the U.S.

But since that doubt still remains, war still looms. It's not about US proving that the WMD are there - it's about Iraq proving that they're NOT. And they can't do that.

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[FiveB247]

Iraq is not a threat to the world..or even the continental US. They are a threat to the stability in the Middle East and our oil interest. And as for US intentions in this upcoming war, the US is clearly pushing forward due to it's own interest and not that of "terrorism" or "Saddam being a threat to the US" as the politicians claim. Oil is the threat, or lack there of and high prices. Iraq has 10% of the world's resource in oil (2nd highest behind Saudi Arabia with 25%). The US is trying to maximize a venture by incorporating Iraq to its maximum capacity (which it is clearly not close to). With a Saddam-less Iraq and a more willing trading partner with the US, the impact of OPEC will be stagnated and therefore place less value and interest in the entire area or one specific nation for oil. In other words, the US is helping and pursuing in economic or market terms..."cornering the market" or "collusion". Typical dealings and on-goings from US policies.

With US intentions of "order" and "stability" which can easily be replaced with control, the Middle East is a fire-bed of Anti-American sentiment. Iraqi sanctions, the flight of the Palestinians, Islamic tendencies and US support of Israel all empower a misled Arab realm. The military and economic backing of Israel is more of side note, when in fact more of the Arab world would be satisfied with both states in duel existence. Such notions have been reasserted via meetings, treaties and attempts at solutions. It is only the likes of fundamentalists which would breed satisfaction in the destruction of Israel. Such fundamentalists exist in each nation in the Middle East and therefore rise to the forefront of the issue. Iraq has enabled accompaniment for Arabs to associate US hatred, the movement of Palestine as well as fundamentalist thoughts all to the evils of the US and its little lackey, Israel. Groups like Hezbollah, al Queda, etc, represent a religious outlet for such aggression, yet are the only methods of fighting back to their oppressed notions and processes. 9-11 exhibits to the US of such believes; rather that it is a cause for Arabs collaboration with various goals and attainments, rather then just hatred of the US as well as Islamic fundamentalism as a whole. By and far, the US policies in the area are unequal, interest oriented as well as hypocritical. Without future remedies and change to policies, the US is set to suffer more damaging fate such as those of 9-11. (http://www.nytimes.com/cfr/international/1_FA_nift_030106_doran.html)

[Bergalad]

Yeah but basically only HE WANTS to kill innocent Iraqis at the drop of a hat. The rest of the UN tends to like to resolve things without killing people

Let me get this straight: you are saying that the President of the United States is a psychopathic murderer? That is insane, really. You are right that the UN tries to resolve things without them killing anyone, but usually by their inaction they allow many more to be killed than if they would have acted. Proof? 500,000 died of starvation in Ruwanda before the US stepped in. The UN was in Bosnia, but watched as Serbs executed Croats and Muslims WITH THE UN's OWN WEAPONS! The UN is afraid to do anything that requires force. I will say again to everyone and especially Five my old posting buddy, the only reason this is the US's fight is because the UN is once again scared to do anything about it! The UN is the one who gave Iraq 30 days to comply with 1441, and now we are almost 120 days gone and still they haven't complied. I don't understand why people still don't get this! The Resolution didn't say 'let us inspect you to death', it said disarm and comply. You can't argue that, so stop it with all the oil talk and Bush is a murderer. Blame the UN for passing a Resolution they won't enforce!

[FiveB247]

Berg....The US doesn't comply with the UN. They hold themselves above the Security Council and only use such means when the time is appropriate for their interests and agenda. Don't kid yourself in thinking the US always does the right thing and always is doing everything for "humanitarian good". 1441 was not fully complied with and is up to the UN to decide the consequences. You can blame the UN all you like, but the US breaks just as many resolutions, agreements and pacts as they hold their "threats" and "enemies" too. And many of these items are re-occuring and are all current (in our lifetime). You devote notions to hold this country up under all aspects is a joke. We do just as much harm in this world as we do good.

This message was edited by FiveB247 on 3-1-03 @ 8:57 PM

[phixion]

Bergalad, the level of your retardation never ceases to amaze me. 12 years ago, Iraq WAS a military stronghold. Now their soldiers are ready to surender before war has even been declared. Yet Bush is still trying to convince the world that their "mighty army" is a threat to the world as we know it. and YOU, you in your infinite wisdom, is trying to spin my comment so that what took place over a decade ago has revelevance to an army where the soldiers are sucking camel d for protein? haven't you ever heard of an edit button?


hippie, if u werent legacy id buy u an ounce

okay this is the way i see it (and i know 95% of u will disagree):

the US never enters a war unless money is involved. im sorry you can come up with as amny other reasons as you want, if u want the US to enter a war offer money. second,

never say the US is peace keeping nation. during the korean war, in our POW camps, we used get the male soldiers aroused and then stick shards of glass into the penis. then as the penis would gradually soften, the glass would break and cause even more damage.

this war isnt about hussein, it isnt about terrorism, the only reason i see this war coming to pass is so that Bush can get himself reelected. he knows during war time we citizens gather around our mighty leaders and let them show us the way. bush is holding off war long enough that we will remember this week long campaign into unnecessary war. (it wont take us longer than a week) Bush knows our economy is in shambles and he knows that we have, in most ways, moved forward since 9/11. if elections were held 2 weeks ago we would not elect Bush. plus am i the only one who's little scared about having a president who looks like he should be on the box of Lucky Charms?

honestly i dont have a problem with war in general, in fact i believe it's necessary for any culture to evolve. but i do have a problem with war without reason, im sorry i dont think saddam hussein is that powerful, i mean we can put him down in a manner of days. let him make the first move. and dont tell me he will launch more terrorists against us, because he wont. it is a government we are fighting this time no fanatics. in fact if there was a better reason for this war i would be for it, but i wouldnt want my brother dying so that Bush could get reelected....

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This message was edited by phixion on 3-1-03 @ 9:12 PM

[shamus mcfitzy]

Let me get this straight: you are saying that the President of the United States is a psychopathic murderer? That is insane, really.


I find it insane also that our president decides to kill innocent Iraqis because he wants control over oil. And i'm not so much mad that Bush decides to go into Iraq without actual UN approval, but that he pretends to get UN approval. I would probably have less of a problem if Bush had just waited a year to say that he needed to take out Saddam and did it, at least then he would keep more integrity.

[LiquidCourage]

Bush is still trying to convince the world that their "mighty army" is a threat to the world as we know it.


I've never once heard Bush say that Iraq's military was a threat to the world.

[LiquidCourage]

I would probably have less of a problem if Bush had just waited a year to say that he needed to take out Saddam and did it


Ah yes, because the 10 months we've been waiting has been this "rush to war" everyone's been talking about.

[TheMojoPin]

Easy for you to say that the Iraqi military will be easy for the US to beat while you are sitting safely at home. How courageous of you.

How's it hangin', Sgt. Slaughter? Wishing you all my luck when you ship out next week! GOT TO GET TOUGH!!!

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[FiveB247]

Just because you're not directly fighting doesn't mean you can't have an opinion on the matter. And no one should belittle any member of armed forces...it's honorable (whether you agree with the cause or not)...and until you actually can you put you own life in harms way for such things...you have no reason to say less of them.

[Death Metal Moe]

I have no time for Retards.

HIs army is weak and ready for surrender.

But his Republican Guard is still ready to defend him and threaten the surrounding area with Chemical and Bioligical weapons.

And then he can also sell them to Al Queda.

You LIberals really surprise me with your level of ignorance.

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[LiquidCourage]

Maybe I misunderstood you.
I thought you were saying he should wait more.

[LiquidCourage]

People are completely underestimating Saddam's forces.
Sure, they are like 1/4 of what they were in 1991, but they'll be fighting in the middle of a city as opposed to wide open deserts.

Gung ho people are gonna be mighty shocked when there's some messy street fighting going on.

[shamus mcfitzy]

Ah yes, because the 10 months we've been waiting has been this "rush to war" everyone's been talking about.


i don't know if you're criticizing me.....but i'm referring to how long it would take Bush to get ready for war with the year thing.

[A.J.]

during the korean war, in our POW camps, we used get the male soldiers aroused and then stick shards of glass into the penis. then as the penis would gradually soften, the glass would break and cause even more damage.

That sounds like some of the shit the guests have been doing on the show down here the last couple of weeks.

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[TheMojoPin]

during the korean war, in our POW camps, we used get the male soldiers aroused and then stick shards of glass into the penis. then as the penis would gradually soften, the glass would break and cause even more damage.

"And then there was...KOREA."

Please, I think that war made us ALL suffer unspeakable pain...most of it at the hands of THIS barbaric maniac...

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[TheMojoPin]

And then he can also sell them to Al Queda.

You LIberals really surprise me with your level of ignorance.

At this point I'm all for whatever "war" is deemed necessary to get Saddam AND Bush out of office. But I'M really suprised how many "hawks" automatically assume Saddam has these WMD that he's willing to give out to extremist groups who are just as likely to use them on him once they've chucked a bunch at us. Saddam IS a threat, and an evil asshole, but come on, the only people he's gonna toss these things at are Israel and anyone who comes charging over his border. Let's cut the shit and stop pretending like he's a threat to "us" here in America directly with his WMD. There's more proof that Al Queda has had bases and support in and from Iran than Iraq. Drop the fakeass terrorist horseshit and just take him out for being an evil bastard, period. Put some fucking respect and balls into this mess...

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[CaptClown]

Just a quick question to see if everyone with an opinion is actually keeping up with the whole inspection thing. Did the UN inspectors identify the brown liquid they found in the R400 aerosol bombs they found?

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[Se7en]

Iraq is not a threat to the world..or even the continental US. They are a threat to the stability in the Middle East and our oil interest.

Okay, let's play devil's advocate.

Say this is completely about the oil.

Then, you have two choices about who should be in a position of power in regards to the Middle East oil:

A.) Saddam

or

B.) The USA, via the new Iraqi regime.

Maybe I'm just an Evil Capitalist Pig, but even supposing this is all about the oil.....I'd still rather US have the black gold than HIM.

Phixion: I find your war-for-reelection argument flawed, seeing as the same thing didn't work for the FIRST Bush.

Mojo: Get ready for a trip in the SLAUGHTERHOUSE!!!!

You'll either leave as a soldier, or in a ditty bag!

An itty, bitty, ditty bag!

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I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.

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[TheMojoPin]

Mojo: Get ready for a trip in the SLAUGHTERHOUSE!!!!

You'll either leave as a soldier, or in a ditty bag!

An itty, bitty, ditty bag!

I totally just wet my pants, Lt. Falcon-style.

A true classic. Thanks, Se7en...

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[FiveB247]

Simply assuming the WMD exist without proof is just allowing and basically saying, let's go blow up a country, search it and ask questions later." And anyone who think Saddam will sell weapons and worries about that item, take a look at North Korea. They will sell and have sold to any group, organization or country. We should also mention that they have began nuclear programs again and are testing missles. But the US is offering aid packages and such to them. US policies, agendas and interestsare all clear when put into a wholistic perspective.

[NewYorkDragons80]

Ha, that's a good one
Please name one.

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[DarkHippie]

Intelligence reports link the WMD to be held by Iraq's Republican Guard, who are mobile.
Is this classified, or just a rumor, considering our intelligence in the region is admittedly weak (except for sattilite photos of canisters at factories that aren't there any more, thank you mr Powell)

And why didn't Powell show these reports to the UN? these would have surely swayed everyone to the US's side?

The Republican Guard can't be that mobile, since there is a No-fly zone over 3/4 of the country.

Does Iraq even have the wealth to create WMD? It's been under a trade embargo for years now. the whole country is in abject poverty. Worse, the Armor-piercing shells and missiles that we used in the Gulf War (Tipped with DEPLETED URAINIUM for those that didn't know) have caused an epidemic of sicknesses in Iraq similar in symptoms (but far more severe) to the Gulf War syndrome, and has also caused genetic defects in their next generation. Poverty + disease + trade embargo = a country unlikely to be making enough money for high tech weapons.


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[phixion]

Phixion: I find your war-for-reelection argument flawed, seeing as the same thing didn't work for the FIRST Bush.


my response to yours se7en is that the 1st bush acted too soon. he wasnt this close to reelection. i mean hes a few of months away from the primary's. but honestly im not sure and im too lazy to check. and we never rallied around the first bush i dont think, ever. after the attacks we were Lewinskying the president. and now we're ready to pull a Beecher and just bite his dick off.

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[ADF]

Please name one.


The Shah in Iran. Pinochet in Chile. Half of the former governments in South America at one point or another did what we told them. During the Cold War, the United States and the Soviet Union used various states as pawns in a giant chess game. A lot of governments that we "supported" were involved with human rights abuses. We're no better than most countries.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

A lot of governments that we "supported" were involved with human rights abuses. We're no better than most countries.
I'm not saying the US has never assisted a corrupt government, but "puppet" is a strong accusation. It means that America controls a foreign nation and the leader is an empty suit. This has never happened and Iran proof. The Shah was shifting his pro-US stance shortly before he was overthrown. Is the US "No better than most countries"? I strongly disagree. We have been the most responsible nation in human history.

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[The Jays]

... If we want oil, why not just take over Kuwait? I mean, we're already there, all we have to say is "We're taking over" and then take all of there oil. WHy can't we just do that?
Or, why can't we just tear down all the wildlife reserves in Alaska and start pumping our oil? I mean, Bush already has shown he hates the environment, why not just go full circle and take the Alaska oil???
Why the fuck is he gonna go after a country, with his ONLY MOTIVATION being Iraq's small percentage of oil?

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[FiveB247]

Calling the US the "most responsible country" is far from the truth. Economic sanctions, pushing forth institutions and "development plans" that conform nations to "free market values" which hurt their own society and benefit our corporations and government; not to mention arms sales and aid packages that support tyrannical leaders (which the US does do, they support more and give more in aid to undemocratic nations)...these aren't exactly noble actions to say the least.

Ps...Iraq has 10% of the world's oil resources (2nd highest in the world)... Saudi Arabia has 25% of the world's oil resources (highest holder of the resource in the world). So 10% is a huge burden upon the entire market and holds a lot of impact.

This message was edited by FiveB247 on 3-2-03 @ 1:55 PM

[TheMojoPin]

Calling the US the "most responsible country" is far from the truth.

So who is?

Seriously, give our country credit for SOMEthing.

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[Bob Impact]

Seriously, give our country credit for SOMEthing.
The Anna Nicole Smith show is entering into it's second season and 1 in 3 American's watched the Joe Millionare finale.

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[TheMojoPin]

The Anna Nicole Smith show is entering into it's second season and 1 in 3 American's watched the Joe Millionare finale.

Don't worry. The "duct tape and plastic" warning is actually a crafty plan to get all those schmucks to off themselves.

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[Bergalad]

You can blame the UN all you like, but the US breaks just as many resolutions, agreements and pacts as they hold their "threats" and "enemies" too. And many of these items are re-occuring and are all current (in our lifetime).

Name one. Specifically name one UN Resolution the US has broken. Name one or shut up. Show us some proof. I work on facts, and one big fact is the UN has failed to enforce 1441 after the deadline they set expired. Yet you still argue that truth because you aren't able to accept reality. I await your facts.

[Bergalad]

the US never enters a war unless money is involved. im sorry you can come up with as amny other reasons as you want, if u want the US to enter a war offer money. second,

never say the US is peace keeping nation. during the korean war, in our POW camps, we used get the male soldiers aroused and then stick shards of glass into the penis. then as the penis would gradually soften, the glass would break and cause even more damage.

OK, so remind me again why we fought in WWI, WWII, Korea, Bosnia, Kosovo, etc? Oh yeah, it was all about money! Idiot. And those torture things, that wasn't the US who did that. It was the Germans in WW2 who made it famous. Post an article or anything else factual that says the US ever did that.

[Bergalad]

And no one should belittle any member of armed forces...it's honorable (whether you agree with the cause or not)...and until you actually can you put you own life in harms way for such things...you have no reason to say less of them.

Holy hell...I am sorta speechless. I almost want to take back all the mean things I think about you...

[bigbaldirish]

I have no time for Retards.

HIs army is weak and ready for surrender.

But his Republican Guard is still ready to defend him and threaten the surrounding area with Chemical and Bioligical weapons.

And then he can also sell them to Al Queda.

You LIberals really surprise me with your level of ignorance.

i'm liberal, but i'm not stupid. War is necessary to remove saddam hussein from power. UN resolution makes it illegal for us to assisinate him, or fund a group that will assisinate him. BUT assisination of military leaders in wartime is fair ball. considering he is Commander-In-Chief, fair game. I am in no way a fan of Bush and his policies, nor do i think his reason for doing this has anything to do with oil, or stability of the area, like he says, but it is a necessary evil. guaranteed that this country will not accept a surrender from the Head of state of Iraq without a) Saddam being dead or B) heading into exile.


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Don't worry. The "duct tape and plastic" warning is actually a crafty plan to get all those schmucks to off themselves.

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[FiveB247]

Bergalad...I never once said anything bad of the armed forces. And simply for my disagreement with US policies, I wouldn't disrespect people who risk their own lives in such a manner.

On the other note, the US policies which currently include embargo's towards Cuba, Iraq, Vietnam, amongst various other nations, all included items such as baring any nation to provide or correspond with trade, giving of aid or even medical supplies. These have all been noted and carried out by the Organization of American States (OAS). In such policies, the US basically threatens and penalizes any nation, business or corporation that deals and works with various nations (that the US deems a threat or such). All of these penalties and threats are harsh and cause corporations, organizations, businesses and governments to stray away from stepping out of US control and keep wary of US authority. All such embargo's which restrict food, medicine and such items are in violation of UN policy and law.

In another small violation which was later "celebrated" in the media, was the US invasion of Nicaragua. The US was brought to the World Court (an institution sponsored by the UN). The US was found guilty of running paramilitary actions (terrorist operations) in Nicaragua (and against the current government in place). The World Court ruled in clear favor of Nicaragua. The US was to stop running such actions and operations. Within 24hrs of the ruling, the US (in direct violation and in disgust of the ruling), the US invaded and carried out some of the worse operations, actions and such. All under the Reagan might I add. This is just one of many various examples of US noncompliance and disregard of the UN and international law. (http://www.icj-ij.org/icjwww/idecisions/isummaries/inussummary860627.htm)

[Death Metal Moe]

i'm liberal, but i'm not stupid. War is necessary to remove saddam hussein from power.


Well then YOU and Alan Colmes are the only 2 Liberals on the planet I can even think of respecting.

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[phixion]

OK, so remind me again why we fought in WWI, WWII, Korea, Bosnia, Kosovo, etc? Oh yeah, it was all about money! Idiot. And those torture things, that wasn't the US who did that. It was the Germans in WW2 who made it famous. Post an article or anything else factual that says the US ever did that.


WWI- we went to war over the sunken Lucitania. a ship carrying guns to the british and french, after we told the germans we would stay completely neutral. (how noble) and also american investors were losing money in europe do to the war. so point number 1 proven.

WWII- america needed to get out of the great depression ala war. also american investors were once again losing money in europe.

korea- we were having a battle of pride with russia. again how noble. and we were worried about japan becoming a communist state as well, which would mean the US would lose more money.

bosnia- we never declared war in bosnia so u can kiss my ass.

kosovo- we never declared war in kosovo so u can kiss my ass two times.

and germany treated each and every POW with so much respect it was sickening. no ally soldier was treated the way the US treated the koreans. and if i can find the book that i read it in ill scan it just so u can eat a nice big bowl of im stupid so ill shut the fuck up for now on.

you are foolish in thinking the US has the right to do whatever it wants. this holier than thou bullshit is what Muslim fanatics, and white supremacists, and all other hate groups, thrive on.

and im sorry call me crazy but i would rather spend the money this war will cost us on things that are wrong with this country rite now, like the prison system. now thats a fucked up insitution.

and rite now im worried a hell of alot more about ppl who are locked up than i am hussein is gonna destroy the world. cuz the first part i kno about, the first part i can prove. the second part is all hear-say. show me proof, and when i say that i want these nuclear bombs, i want these anthrax fermentors, i want to see these chemical plants. until then dont scream war..... cause you never know who u mite now that could or may die.

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[shamus mcfitzy]

WWI, WWII, Korea, Bosnia, Kosovo


ok i know I'M not talking about the original "good" US that fought WWI and WWII becuase THOSE preidents were fighting the wars for good reason. If FDR's corpse was still in office i don't doubt that he would do things honorably. Korea was when we started to go commie crazy, and then Kosovo and Bosnia were legit actions by a recent US president. At least those two (even though they're really one) campaigns were legit. I guess we tripped up there. Sorry.....




This message was edited by shamus mcfitzy on 3-2-03 @ 6:20 PM

[Death Metal Moe]

WWII- america needed to get out of the great depression ala war. also american investors were once again losing money in europe


You got me so mad I had to sign in.

If THIS is the ONLY reason you think the US sent thousands of men to their deaths then get the fuck out of this country because you have no idea what it is to be an American.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

Calling the US the "most responsible country" is far from the truth.
I don't think I can stress my point enough. I am not saying the US is always right. What I am saying is that we have acted in a more responsible manner than any other nation in the world. If you want to disagree with me, please provide us with the nation who you believe to be the most responsible.

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[shamus mcfitzy]

If you want to disagree with me, please provide us with the nation who you believe to be the most responsible.


I think that it's impossible to give you a nation if you mean one as powerful as the US, mostly because the US is a superpower. But in general, i'm pretty sure you could say Canada. That seems like a safe bet. Of course if you mean a nation a little more powerful, I guess you could say Spain.

[FiveB247]

Simply saying the US is the best...cause they are or do more then other nations..that is true...but not just. Obviously we have capability and access to do plenty...but we do not always do so. If you want to have a simple comparison outside these realms. If the Yankees win 60 games all season..and everyone else in the MLB wins 35. Does this mean the Yankees are satisfied with their record? Does this mean the Yanks are content with only winning that many and don't want to achieve more? Obviously not.
And quite simply, the US may contribute lots in aid, programs and such (which they do receive back in other ways), but the goal should be to achieve and accomplish more...not do more then the obvious lessors and call it enough. The US has capabilities, access and resources to serious conquer and attack serious issues in this nation and all over the world...and chooses to profit over such items instead.

[CaptClown]

In another small violation which was later "celebrated" in the media, was the US invasion of Nicaragua. The US was brought to the World Court (an institution sponsored by the UN). The US was found guilty of running paramilitary actions (terrorist operations) in Nicaragua (and against the current government in place). The World Court ruled in clear favor of Nicaragua. The US was to stop running such actions and operations. Within 24hrs of the ruling, the US (in direct violation and in disgust of the ruling), the US invaded and carried out some of the worse operations, actions and such. All under the Reagan might I add. This is just one of many various examples of US noncompliance and disregard of the UN and international law.

1.) The US' action were in retaliation to Nicaragua's attempts to destabilize El Salvador, at El Salvador's request for aid.

2.) The World Court didn't take El Salvador's Declaration into account, they were out to make an example out of the US.

3.) Nicaragua eventually tried to drop their case even after they won a judgement.
http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/icases/inus/inusframe.htm

I think that it's impossible to give you a nation if you mean one as powerful as the US, mostly because the US is a superpower. But in general, i'm pretty sure you could say Canada. That seems like a safe bet. Of course if you mean a nation a little more powerful, I guess you could say Spain.

You would think so but what about the last couple of generation Inuit children that are addicted to gasoline fumes? Spain has been quiet for awhile.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

But in general, i'm pretty sure you could say Canada. That seems like a safe bet. Of course if you mean a nation a little more powerful, I guess you could say Spain.
Canada is a decent example, but I would have to say that there is no comparison because the United States has more complex problems and a bigger role in global politics than Canada. As for Spain, I would be hard-pressed to find a worse example.

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[LiquidCourage]

Iraq has 5% of the world's oil, not 10%.

[FiveB247]

Nicaragua was invaded...new government officials were in place. And not only that, Nicaragua basically dropped the Court issue in order to slow or decrease US invasion and attack. It was out of defense...not compliance. It similar to waving the white flag.

And as for Iraq, they currently produce 5% under the embargo's and such. But with full production in place...they would produce 10% of the worlds oil. It's been documented in various resources.

Ps...You honestly can't compare any other nation to the US in the same sense.

This message was edited by FiveB247 on 3-2-03 @ 11:44 PM

[LiquidCourage]

Niceragua invaded?
By who?

[LiquidCourage]

When you say "invaded", are you talking about the contras?

[Bergalad]

Five, here's what I asked you to do:
Specifically name one UN Resolution the US has broken. Name one or shut up. Show us some proof.

What you said:
All such embargo's which restrict food, medicine and such items are in violation of UN policy and law.

Where are the specific examples? Where does the UN say they are pissed at the US for these actions, which by the way other nations actually support and embargo themselves? You can't give me an actual Resolution the US broke, so just admit it. I don't want your hearsay, I want printed facts. If you can't provide them, then stop with the accusations.

[FiveB247]

The US ran invasions of Nicaragua in the 80's. Basically the ordeal was to replace the current government who wasn't "co-operating" or "in-line" with Washingtons politics. Typical actions from Reaganism (either political, social or economic agendas to open up new markets for trade and growth).

Ps...The Contras were arms being sold to Iran (who we now deem a threat).

[Bergalad]

WWI- we went to war over the sunken Lucitania. a ship carrying guns to the british and french, after we told the germans we would stay completely neutral. (how noble) and also american investors were losing money in europe do to the war. so point number 1 proven.

WWII- america needed to get out of the great depression ala war. also american investors were once again losing money in europe.

korea- we were having a battle of pride with russia. again how noble. and we were worried about japan becoming a communist state as well, which would mean the US would lose more money.

bosnia- we never declared war in bosnia so u can kiss my ass.

kosovo- we never declared war in kosovo so u can kiss my ass two times.

and germany treated each and every POW with so much respect it was sickening. no ally soldier was treated the way the US treated the koreans. and if i can find the book that i read it in ill scan it just so u can eat a nice big bowl of im stupid so ill shut the fuck up for now on.

you are foolish in thinking the US has the right to do whatever it wants. this holier than thou bullshit is what Muslim fanatics, and white supremacists, and all other hate groups, thrive on.

I can't even believe that you are this stupid, so I will assume you are trying to be humorous. People have written some retarded things on this board, but this is the new champion. I try to stay away from taking things personally, but this level of stupidity and foolishness goes beyond all bounds. If this is how you think, I hope someone invents a time machine. Then I can go back in time to find your mother while she is pregnant with you and punch her in the stomach repeatedly.

[FiveB247]

Bergalad, I could research and probably find hundreds of resolutions that the US Vetoed, broke or disregarded. These items have all be made clear in any mainstream political arena. You are pointing at a tiny instance where the US has actually worked along side the UN (which is a minority). The items I mentioned are cornerstones of the UN laws...not just a small resolution. You're comparison of 1441 to the US's general disregard of UN laws, codes and international law is like comparing a parking ticket to murder (obviously both violations of law). You cannot validate the US's unilateral position that has been under use for decades to one instance where Iraq has broken a resolution and you feel it necessary to put forth US interests and the US as the final decision on such processes.

[Bergalad]

Ps...The Contras were arms being sold to Iran (who we now deem a threat).

That doesn't even make close to sense. The Nicaragua Contras were a rebel group trying to overthrow the Sandinista Governemnt of Nicaragua. They were neither weapons nor being sold to Iran.

[LiquidCourage]

I was just wondering what you were talking about.

If you want to talk CIA actions during the 80s, I'm your man.

You don't seem to know exactly what you're talking about as far as Niceragua goes.

[LiquidCourage]

WWII- america needed to get out of the great depression ala war. also american investors were once again losing money in europe.


Uh, Pearl Harbor????


Wow. That entire post was ridiculious.
That was probably put up by one of these people who cries "It's unfair that I'm being called un American because I disagree"

[LiquidCourage]

Right-O, Bergalad.

The Iran-Contra sales were basically this:

After Congress cut off all money to the Contras in Niceragua, the CIA was strapped for cash to fund them. We got a few countries to chip in a few million (Israel, Saudi Arabia), but it wasn't enough.

Long story made short, we sold weapons which couldn't really even be used against us to Iran at super inflated prices, ripped them off, then sent the profits to the contras in Niceragua.

That's a genius plan; an enemy funding a friend. The only bad part was that they got caught.

[LiquidCourage]

Well, he's actually right.
We do disregard and break tons of resolutions.

BUT, I think the UNs a pile of shit, so I don't care.

[Bergalad]

I could research and probably find hundreds of resolutions that the US Vetoed, broke or disregarded. These items have all be made clear in any mainstream political arena. You are pointing at a tiny instance where the US has actually worked along side the UN (which is a minority). The items I mentioned are cornerstones of the UN laws...not just a small resolution.

So you're saying that you couldn't find any Resolutions the US broke. You could have just said that. Oh, and it's not a "small resolution", it's one that had the UNANIMOUS APPROVAL OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL!!!

[FiveB247]

I'm not much for the CIA operations...after hearing, reading and such, many of them they seem like terror militias with agendas far from "pushing democratic values" as Reagan and some revisionsists would like to have many belief.

[FiveB247]

Do you ever read about politics and such in books, texts, and such, outside of the mainstream media? UN reports, descriptive and factual articles regarding international on-goings and past happenings? The US hasn't been branded words like "empire", "unilateral" and "interest driven" by mistake. There are many clear instances where these notions come from. And all above some minute level of education...mostly experts and serious organizations in the field. You may choose to look around them and point fingers at the UN, other nations, etc., but the notions of US disregard for international laws, UN codes and such are all well versed. You can simply over pass such items as "conspiracy" or "anti-american"..but these type of notions are all well understood and discussed on high-end levels of education and in the rest of the world.

[LiquidCourage]

Sounds like you're revising history here.

Reagan did the right thing.
The last thing we needed was another Cuba in our backyard.
Niceragua was exporting all kinds of trouble everywhere, and he was out to stop it.

Also, when bringing these kinds of things up, you really do have to talk about the USSR's foreign policy of the time.

[LiquidCourage]

I don't know why so many people love the UN so much.
It's like they can't even wipe their own ass, yet people think it's the supreme ruler of world politics.

[LiquidCourage]

Once again, the US fails horribly....

:(

[LiquidCourage]

By the early 80's, it was well understood and believed the USSR held military capability yet was on the fall regardless. Economic burdens spread them thin and by the time Reagan decided to outspend beyond belief, it was the straw that broke their back.

I guess that's why they didn't invade Afghanistan, fund the Sandanistas, as well as fund Communist uprisings throughout the world, spending hundreds of billions in the process.

Oh wait, they really did.

[Bergalad]

Also, when bringing these kinds of things up, you really do have to talk about the USSR's foreign policy of the time.

Come on LC, you know we are to blame for everything that has ever happened! The USSR, just like France now, was only looking out for the interests of the whole world! We were doing everything to make money and push our evil concepts of "Democracy" and "Freedom" on countries that would have been so much better off with the USSR in charge.

[FiveB247]

By the early 80's, it was well understood and believed the USSR held military capability yet was on the fall regardless. Economic burdens spread them thin and by the time Reagan decided to outspend beyond belief, it was the straw that broke their back.

[Bergalad]

There are many clear instances where these notions come from.

And yet you still can't give me even one of them.

[Bergalad]

LC, I think it's funny that your responses to posts are on the board before the post you are replying to. Post tomorrows Lotto numbers for me, will ya?

[TheMojoPin]

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So when are you three fags gonna cut the crap and finally start making out? Because this is just getting gay...

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[Bergalad]

So when are you three fags gonna cut the crap and finally start making out? Because this is just getting gay...

Sorry Mojo, didn't know you were trying to get your jerk on tonight. We can speed things up if that's what gets you hot.

[TheMojoPin]

It's about time, you inconsiderate twat. You think we actually keep you and five here to let you talk? Please. FLASHLIGHT PARTY, BITCHES.

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[CaptClown]

Since no one bothered to answer the question I asked about the R400 bombs, I guess we would rather argue about whether the US is good or bad.

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[FiveB247]

Bergalad...I still can't believe you are arguing this. You do not want to accept such items or take them into account in the total realm of politics, but they clearly exist. Here's an article regarding a few instances where the US disregarded UN policy and law. A book was later followed in broader terms and hailed by the NY Times Readers Best Sellers list as well as being noted in the educational arena as well documented accounts on current affairs.

(http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles/z9804-rogue.html)

PS...The US continues to spend the same amount on military funding that it did when the USSR existed (and we were fighting with)...and that's before the "war on terrorism". So explain that. The US was relentless in finishing off via out spending the USSR...those actions and conflicts you mention are side notes to continued efforts by the US to finish the Cold War.

This message was edited by FiveB247 on 3-3-03 @ 9:28 AM

[Bergalad]

Here's an article regarding a few instances where the US disregarded UN policy and law.

This "article" you put so much support behind says right under the title:
The U.S. does not
fall into the category (of Rogue State) despite its terrorist attacks against Cuba for close to 40 years.

You are using a document that says the US is a terrorist state to back your opinions. Very official. Nice work. The US has not violated any UN Resolutions, just like I said days ago. This is played out and you are wrong. Move on.

[Bergalad]

CaptClown, haven't seen anything on the bombs, but will look around a little more for you.

[HAMMERHEAD]

ha-ha funny

[phixion]

If THIS is the ONLY reason you think the US sent thousands of men to their deaths then get the fuck out of this country because you have no idea what it is to be an American


no no fuck no. we had pearl harbor and that was the flame that sparked the keg. and the money issue added to the powder, with all the other crap. DMM im sorry if u misunderstood me. and i still hold firm that the US doesnt behave like a war-like nation unless we are attacked ourselves, or if money is involved. we ourselves dont necassarily enter war cuz we're not attcked. if we're losing enough money we will enter as well.

bergalad- theres no talking to u. i can back each and every one of my claims up. but i have those books at home and i am at school. your just running blindly, ur not looking at the whole picture. and maybe u dont think like me. cuz i only think we should go to war if its absolutely necessary. i dont think we should risk life 'for the fun of it' as it were. unless iraq shows agression i dont give a fuck what he does. and when i say agression i mean attacking someone, or just actually doing something, instead of just arguing.

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[FiveB247]

For your info Bergalad, Noam Chomsky is probably held as one of the greatest political commentators of the 20th Century (in educational and social realms).

He does consider the US to be a terrorist state due to many issues such as funding of nations, organizations, groups and militias that are similar if not terrorist themselves. (also according to actions, operations and various bombings the US has conducted) The mention of the US as such is obvious a radical statement, although the data and examples he uses are all factual and on target. Whether you agree is inconsequential.

Your discontent for his beliefs or opinions is obvious, but to refute a political writer and commentator who is held as one of the top of the list..that's sad. Chomsky has written over 50 books and is respected all over the world. Maybe you should read something by him to understand it, before you go and dismiss it.

This message was edited by FiveB247 on 3-3-03 @ 11:36 AM

[Bergalad]

I feel so loved that you guys keep trying to fight with me.

i can back each and every one of my claims up. but i have those books at home and i am at school.
well, after nappy time ends, ask teacher if you can get them, ok?

and maybe u dont think like me.

Thank God I don't Phixion, or I would be brain-dead too.

Chomsky has written over 50 books and is respected all over the world. Maybe you should read something by him to understand it, before you go and dismiss it.

Bin Laden has written/said a lot and is respected by hundreds of millions all over the world, should I try to understand him? How fucking stupid. Five, Chomsky says the US is a TERRORIST NATION. Do you understand that? He thinks we are terrorists. Fuck him and his opinions. You wanna get all touchy-feely with assholes, then go right ahead. We're the same as the 9/11 guys? Fuck anyone who thinks that. No wonder you hate the US so much.

[FiveB247]

At this point Bergalad..you really have no clue what you are talking about. You are denouncing a writer and well respected political commentator who you obviously know nothing about him or his writings. Type his name in on yahoo and see how absurd and insignificant he is....and comparing such to Bin Laden is absurd. You are a boob and have a great deal to learn and understand of politics and on-goings. You should read anything besides what the US biased media you are obvious buying into. There's a whole world outside how you see it in a narrow minded manner.

Ps...you should also note in political context and in US law as well as international law..."terrorist nation" doesn't simply mean blowing up innocent civilians (but on a side note..the US has engaged in operations and bombings like that too).

This message was edited by FiveB247 on 3-3-03 @ 1:07 PM

[lippy]

Everybody come on, we're all Americans here. Let's be friends. There is no right or wrong answer to this conflict between Iraq and America. It's all gray. Everybody has facts to back their arguments. Fighting over this on a message board dedicated to a radio comedy show is only going to exhaust. People believe what they believe and you're not going to change them with a collection of posts.

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[Bergalad]

Sorry to the original poster of the threat for the tangent.

Five, here is a quote from your big buddy Chomsky:
I was attracted to anarchism as a young teenager, as soon as I began to think about the world beyond a pretty narrow range, and haven't seen much reason to revise those early attitudes since.


I do know who he is. He is an Anarchist who has a penchant for Leninist and Marxist policies. My comparison to Bin Laden is accurate even though you don't like it. Chomsky is 'respected' as you say, in just the exact way that Bin Laden is. Ooh wow, he has deep thoughts! He says big words! Doesn't mean he is right. The US is not a terrorist state. We don't need the government overthrown. Fuck him.

[FiveB247]

Bergalad I don't know where you got such a quote from..but it is untrue. In fact Chomsky openly admits he's not an anarchist, communist amongst others. People use him to their causes and associate him with it. He's said in tons of interviews, articles and such. So you're little quote is untrue. He's been branded "communist", "socialist" and a few other names by many mainstream in the US due to analysis and commentary on US foreign policy. Simply disagreeing with policies and such doesn't make you anti-american nor does it make you believer in anything but democracy. And Chomsky is living proof of such.

Secondly, His writings are all fact based. You may not like his perspective on things, but conspiracies, lies, etc are not printed in his books whatsoever.

Quite frankly, I'm sick of arguing with you. I do not expect to change your mind on beliefs obviously, but if you are going to argue about something...atleast know what you're talking about. You want to go into great depths about US policy but obviously don't know enough to do so. And not knowing someone who is obviously well known like Chomsky...shows your utter "pick my facts up along the way" mentality. I don't choose to revise history. I study, read and research what is and has gone in the world. But I do it from all perspectives and care to study all of it...not just the parts that are keyed in upon by the US media.

[Bergalad]

Five, below I provide the link to the article I got the quote from. Unlike you, I am actually able to back up the crap I talk about. I agree with everyone who is tired of watching you flail about trying to justify your bullshit against my facts. With that in mind, I am punching out of this thread. Here's the link, and choke on it.
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/rbr/noamrbr2.html

[FiveB247]

Bergalad, If you noticed the site you got that from it's an anarchist, communist forum. (and as I previously mentioned, many groups associate his works with their cause). If you read in depth at his answers to all his questions he never says he believes in such things. He said he was "fascinated' with them. I.e., studying dissecting, rearching..etc. He writes about all sorts of topics..that doesn't mean he believes in every topic he researches.

If I read and research about terrorism, does that make me a terrorist? Obviously not.

If you want a closer look at Chomsky and his writings, here's a site which is as close as you'll get to an "official" homepage.
(http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/)

And I shall now too punch out.

[phixion]

well, after nappy time ends, ask teacher if you can get them, ok?



im in college, friend, so im not waiting for my professor's permission. again ignorance prevails over common sense...............
it proves that the world is goin to shit instead of sugar. i dont see the point in trying to enlighten people, theyre too closed minded. so i give up......

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[LiquidCourage]

Noam Chomsky is a complete radical.
I refuse to read anything by him.

[shamus mcfitzy]

I'd just like to ask what people think the definition of a terrorist state is. I'm not saying that the US is one, but i just always considered terrorism as attacking without declaring war. And basically it can be the only choice a group of people (rather than an actual country) have in opposing their "enemies". Terrorism can be a not-bad thing if it is perpetrated against the actual country and not it's innocent people.

[NewYorkDragons80]

korea- we were having a battle of pride with russia. again how noble. and we were worried about japan becoming a communist state as well, which would mean the US would lose more money.
The word "We" should be replaced with the words "United Nations." So you think a nation invading another nation is an acceptable action that should not be answered with military force? And would you be content with a communist Japan?

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[phixion]

And would you be content with a communist Japan?




no im not saying that, im glad we acted then because it was necessary. all i was saying is that we dont usually act unless money is involved. im not saying thats always bad.... it just always is, and i dont thik we should b blind of it.

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[LiquidCourage]

phixion, get out of my country you fucking piece of garbage.

[FiveB247]

Shamus..that is an incorrect definition of "terrorism".

Here is the official definition of terrorism according to the FBI.

Terrorism is the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.

And to some of you who disagree with Chomsky calling the US a "terrorist state"...according to the official US definition..there are many occurences where it can be attributed to the list.

This message was edited by FiveB247 on 3-3-03 @ 10:34 PM

[TheMojoPin]

phixion, get out of my country you fucking piece of garbage.

Or else what?

He IS making some asinine comments, but quit pretending like you'd do anything about it.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

And to some of you who disagree with Chomsky calling the US a "terrorist state"...according to the official US definition
I think the key word in that definition is "unlawful."

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[El Mudo]

WWI- we went to war over the sunken Lucitania. a ship carrying guns to the british and french, after we told the germans we would stay completely neutral. (how noble) and also american investors were losing money in europe do to the war. so point number 1 proven.


Even if we had wanted to send arms to the Germans, there was nothing we could do about it due to the British blockade. And England and France provided safe naval havens and arms to the Southern Confederacy but we never went to war with them over it. Besides, public opinion was so against the Germans people would not have stood for it if we had joined with them. Plus, the Lusitania was not the main reason for us getting into the war, that was a cause, but what pushed us over the edge was the Zimmerman telegram that the Germans sent the Mexicans telling them if they declared war on the US they would help them to reclaim all of the old Southwest

And on another point, I don't think a German controlled Europe wouldve been good news for the USA or the world...

Trying to stop talking like a grizzled 1890's prospector..

[FiveB247]

Ny Dragon..quite honestly..do I consider the US to be a terrorist nation. No. Do I agree with many of their actions and policies? No.

But the word "unlawful" is interpretive and can be easily argued pending on which case or perspective you are vying for.

[Death Metal Moe]

If the US is so bad, get out and go to wherever YOU think is so much better.

Honestly. The US is one of the FEW nations that allows this forum to even exist.

Please book a one way ticket to your 'Squeaky Clean" country of choice and stay there.

Why are some of you people ASHAMED to be Americans? It's not a BAD thing. Who has instilled in you this SHAME of just being American?

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[FiveB247]

Death metal Moe....that kind of reasoning is absurd and idiotic to say the least. The notion of if you don't agree with policies you should leave? Like I said previously, you can like or love something, yet expect more of or want more. That doesn't mean you hate it.

And if you want to be such a proud american...you should contribute to positive development of the nation...not bashing those who do.

Most of this country is ignorant, white-trash who don't vote, have no clue what is going on in this nation or any other and don't care too. If you want to be an american, go to McDonalds, over-eat, then go smoke cigarettes, drink, do some drugs and ignore everything going on around your little aspect of the world. Then you can die from cancer and be mourned as a victim (cause no one really knows cigarettes cause cancer). That's the new American Way.

[A.J.]

And if you want to be such a proud american...you should contribute to positive development of the nation...not bashing those who do.

Most of this country is ignorant, white-trash who don't vote, have no clue what is going on in this nation or any other and don't care too.

You just bashed a segment of society that contributes their meager, yet hard-earned tax dollars to the development of the nation.

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A Skidmark production.

[FiveB247]

You can kid yourself into thinking america is full of smart, educated and socially inept people...but that's all you're doing...kidding yourself. Most people are in the habit of feeling and assuming that what they see around them in the everyday is how it is everywhere..whether it be a different city, state, country..etc. That "segment of society" as you called it, is America. That is the majority. We are the minority (the educated, the informed, etc). And you can mention tax dollars...and it's a valid point...cause to the government that's all you are worth. No more. Do you believe the government has an interest in you? Cause if you believe it to be...you're incorrect. They may act on our behalf at times, but it's never all in our interest as "democracy" is supposed to be. This nation has come great lengths away from how it was supposed to be run, set-up and such and the modern system we go by now. It's still called democracy..but it's far a step away from it.

[Death Metal Moe]

You can kid yourself into thinking america is full of smart, educated and socially inept people


Then again, if we're all so inbred and stupid, get your Un-American ass to a country that IS smart and well informed about EVERYTHING. I love your "The grass is greener" approach to life. You sir are my new mortal enemy on this board and I now will be disappointed everytime I see your screen name in a thread.

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[FiveB247]

As Norton would say...NICE!

Ps...trying to control people's ideas and beliefs is un-american. It's funny how the people throwing these types of terms around are pointing at themselves.

[El Mudo]

You sir are my new mortal enemy on this board and I now will be disappointed everytime I see your screen name in a thread.


Get him Moe!! I say you fart in his general direction!!

Trying to stop talking like a grizzled 1890's prospector..

[FiveB247]

El mundo...good one?! ugh

[Death Metal Moe]

Please.

When I look at Americans I see a sometimes uninformed populous, sure. But I see a majority of it's people who want what we all want and people that are capable of independent thought. People that are good and just.

It seems to me that when YOU look out at America you see a people who are too ignorant to live without people like YOU instilling them with your propaganda machine. An ignorant people who don't know enough to come in out of the rain so to speak.

Your arrogance shines through in your own words and attacks on our citizens.

I also would NEVER try to limit what a man has to say. I just am disgusted that most of these "Peace" and 'Anti War" protests are Anti-American and Anit-Bush rallies in not so clever disguise.

How about we support our troops and our government that is trying to eliminate threats to us.

Is that OK with you Slappy?

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[Bob Impact]

Settle it down folks, it's a messageboard, not the floor of congress. Yeesh.

Besides, it's all a conspiracy to steal Iraq's funk.

Discuss.

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[FiveB247]

DMMOe...Maybe when you look around...you see what you want to see?! You are the one complaining and arguing over people expressing their opinions and think it's un-american. I don't believe to be nor hold myself higher than anyone else. My opinions and votes are of the same weight. I may be a bit more outspoken of them...but that's my personality...not arrogance as you call it. You may look around this nation and see just and good people...but you're kidding yourself. They're mostly blind sheep going along for a ride in which they don't look around and see what is going on besides them nor around the world. The US is the richest nation of the world. Yet we hold lower educational systems, social statistics such as poverty almost equal to that of some 2nd and 3rd world nations! Our voting turnouts are pathetic for any democracy and industrialized nation. You call it democracy...I call it blind faith in authority. The fact is this nation is fast food, wallmart, jerry springer, riki lake and trailors....and no one wants to admit it. No one wants to hold or be held responsible to positions or such that they should. Whether it be businessmen backed by lawyers or government themselves...it's always excuses and broken promises as they usually call it. We have the NRA (highest membership group in the US) that want to kill deer with machine guns, then we have Columbine and want to blame music and movies for violence. We have laws stopping smoking in bars and restaurants while the government taxes the hell out of users for profit, all the while have no problem exporting cigarettes overseas to any nation. And with that said, we bomb nations producing or involved in drug trafficking when we ourselves send tobacco everywhere! This nation is full of people who want everything but don't want to work for anything. Everything needs to be spoon-fed...news, music, movies, sports, etc. ...It's nothing more then blind faith in authority...that's what we have let our nation become.