So you wanted a med school recommendation...

[TooCute]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13871-2003Feb15.html

To sum: religious students is taking bio class for med school. Wants med school recommendation from prof. Realizes after reading prof's critera for getting a recommendation that he won't get it because one of the criteria is he needs to "truthfully and forthrightly affirm a scientific answer" to this question: "How do you think the human species originated?""

Transfers to a christian school to take the course, gets recommendation.

"Last month, the Justice Department launched an investigation into whether Dini's insistence that his students affirm a belief in human evolution illegally discriminates against students' religious beliefs."

"Hiram Sasser, staff attorney for the Liberty Legal Institute, said Dini's policy is a clear violation of civil rights that compromises students' academic freedom."

I find this outrageous, and it's not because I believe iin evolution - particularly since evolution can be entirely consistent with a religious life. Rather, I find it outrageous that the student would claim to have been discriminated against due to his religious beliefs because the professor would not write a recommendation for him.

Since when is having a professor write a recommendation for you a right? Granted, the professor is a moron for stating his criteria so explicitly, but then, if he wasn't, he wouldn't be teaching at Texas Tech.
But in any case, a professor determines whether or not he/she will write a recommendation for a student based on criteria determined personally on what is essentially an arbitrary basis. If the professor feels like you deserve it - using whatever criteria they happen to use - they will. There is no obligation.
What is discriminatory in a professor stating that a student must answer scientifically - and I don't believe he said you have to believe it - only be able to explain scientifically - the evolution of humans, particularly if I assume this is a part of the biology curriculum, if not his particular courses? If that is discriminatory against the student's religious beliefs, how would any of the exams in the course not be equally discriminatory. For that matter, how is the course not discriminatory?

Nobody is forcing the student to do anything; if the student doesn't wish to take a course that includes evolution, they do not have to.

I find this entirely ludicrous.

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[IrishAlkey]

I find this entirely ludicrous.



Throw dem' bows...

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[Death Metal Moe]

All I know is I want that NUT JOB operating on ME!

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[IrishAlkey]

All I know is I want that NUT on ME!

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[silera]

I concur.



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[spoon]

TC

You couldn't be more right in that the Prof. was idiotic for stating his criteria as he did. He set his platform up to deliberately contest religion, and of course the outcry soon followed. He isn't a moron for simply teaching at Texas Tech, some of the best teachers/profs. are in the strangest of places. While many awful and pretentious ones can be found at private schools and Ivy institutions. I surely can contest to this. There is an area of intelligence that can't be learned, quoted, or bought.

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[ADF]

Well, the problem is the professor's terminology..

"truthfully and forthrightly affirm a scientific answer"


...which implies that the student must believe the answer given. I think creationists are morons living in a fairy-tale world, but the professor in question is, in fact, discriminating against morons. If he simply asked the student to provide a scientific explanation for the origin of the human species, that would be different. The student could then begrudgingly give the professor his answer while not believing, preferring to live in his fantasy land. Also, other than the fact that a belief in creationism is a sign of religious fanaticism, I don't think it would prevent one from becoming a perfectly capable doctor. True, the professor can give recommendations on an arbitrary basis, but it's the same thing as a restaurant owner not selling food to religious nutballs. What if the student had to ""truthfully and forthrightly affirm" a belief in creationism in order to acquire a recommendation?

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This message was edited by ADF on 2-18-03 @ 1:06 AM

[TooCute]

What if the student had to ""truthfully and forthrightly affirm" a belief in creationism in order to acquire a recommendation?

Then you get your recommendation elsewhere. It's a recommendation, right? And the professor does it as a favor to you? And is writing about how well suited he thinks you are for medical school?

If he thinks that a creationist can't be a good doctor, then why should he have to write a creationist a recommendation?

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[Death Metal Moe]

Who is this guy?

Pat Robertson MD?

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[ChickenHawk]

Through one of my many inside sources, I've obtained an actual photograph of this doctor...

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[ADF]

Yes, but you said..

What is discriminatory in a professor stating that a student must answer scientifically - and I don't believe he said you have to believe it - only be able to explain scientifically - the evolution of humans


I was disagreeing with that part. The second part was merely my own opinion which happens to differ from yours. I believe that recommendations should be given on academic merit and the professor's belief in the student's ability to succeed in the field proposed. You know as well as anyone that Professors can and do give or deny recommendations for silly reasons (friendship, the person's attractiveness, etc.), but I think the professor in question acted irresponsibly. Still, I don't know what "civil rights" were infringed upon or that he was truly discriminated against (in the legal sense, not the literal).. so I certainly agree with you there. Perhaps I just find the spirit of the professor's requirement to be unattractive.

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[ChickenHawk]

By the way, by TooCute's argument, if the professor said "I don't want to write you a recomendation, cuz you're black, and niggers shouldn't be doctors", then I guess he/she couldn't consider it discrimination. Afterall, the professor feels blacks aren't fit to be doctors.

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[Arienette]

It's a recommendation, right? And the professor does it as a favor to you? And is writing about how well suited he thinks you are for medical school?

If he thinks that a creationist can't be a good doctor, then why should he have to write a creationist a recommendation?i agree... while it might be insulting to a person denied a recommendation for this reason, i really don't see where their rights have been violated. the tender of recommendations is not required of professors by any means, and it is left to their discretion whether or not to give them to a particular student. it would be more irresponsible for the professor to recommend a student that he truly felt was ill equipped to handle medical school (for whatever reason) than for him to decline to do so based on what is arguably an irrelevant reason.

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[Dewey]

Then you get your recommendation elsewhere. It's a recommendation, right? And the professor does it as a favor to you? And is writing about how well suited he thinks you are for medical school?


Shockingly enough, I disagree with you, Too Cute. Clearly, Herr Professor set up his criteria to discriminate against creationists. That is abundantly clear from the way this criterion is stated.

Secondly, recommendations are part of a professor's job. They are not a "favor", any more than the issuing of grades. Do you think a professor could get away with saying "I don't do recommendations"? No chance. Any student who requests a recommendation from a professor should receive one; whether it is a strong positive recommendation or a weak one is another matter. A professor with some measure of grace should be upfront with a student, however, and say "I don't think I can write you a good recommendation", if that is the case.

There is no necessary incompatibility between religion and evolution. It is the professor who is wrongly trying to force a wedge between the two, and impose his beliefs on others. Bad professor, very bad!

Many of the pettiest, most narrow minded people I've ever encountered are in academia.
This professor sounds like one of them.

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[TooCute]

He isn't a moron for simply teaching at Texas Tech, some of the best teachers/profs. are in the strangest of places. While many awful and pretentious ones can be found at private schools and Ivy institutions.

Teachers, perhaps, but in terms of overall intelligence and ability to do research and think and write, I'm sorry, but I disagree - based purely on my own experience, though. If a person had the c.v. to get hired at an Ivy League or equivalent (and there are certainly plenty of public universities and small colleges that are 'equivalent'; Texas Tech just doesn't happen to be one of them in my totally snobby, personal, and probably not terribly informed opinion) institution, they would. The money and funding and resources are just too much better. Smart people don't make good teachers, by any means. And there are good teachers in weird places. I was not passing judgement on his teaching ability, just his overall intelligence :)

I was disagreeing with that part.ADF- difference of opinion, I guess...but even still, I do not see where there are any grounds for a lawsuit if the professor writes recommendations only for students who believe in evolution. His recommendations, his criteria. He's still a moron for writing it so explicitly, such that he could get in trouble like this, there it is.

Also, other than the fact that a belief in creationism is a sign of religious fanaticism, I don't think it would prevent one from becoming a perfectly capable doctor.

Well, I guess he gave references which were examples of why creationists can't make good doctors, though I didn't really look at them. But off the top of my head, I could imagine a doctor who was a creationist being much more likely to perscribe antibiotics unnecessarily because they refuse to believe that bacteria can evolve resistance to antibiotics, or perhaps misdiagnose or mistreat illnesses if newer, more virulent strains of things evolve.

By the way, by TooCute's argument, if the professor said "I don't want to write you a recomendation, cuz you're black, and niggers shouldn't be doctors", then I guess he/she couldn't consider it discrimination

Legally? I'm no lawyer, but no, I don't think so. It's discriminatory in an absolute sense, but unless it can be demonstrated that the professor was somehow remiss in his academic duties, according to University policy. Granted, I don't know anything about Texas Tech, but I have never been a a university that had an official policy on recommendations, and I am assuming Texas Tech does not, either, or else I think theire response to this would have been different. It would be moronic of a professor to explicitly state such a thing, but I see no grounds for a lawsuit over a professor's refusal to recommend someone they (for whatever reason) do not feel should be recommended for something.

There is no necessary incompatibility between religion and evolution. It is the professor who is wrongly trying to force a wedge between the two, and impose his beliefs on others.

No, there isn't an incompatibility between the two, particularly given that it seems this professor is very catholic, having been part of a brotherhood of catholic teachers(?) for many years.

There IS a certain incompatibility between evoluiton and creationism, at least in the fashion that this student apparently believes in creationism (eg, one can believe that God created life, and then use evolution as the mechanism to allow it to flourish and change. One can not believe that God created all animals as they are today and that they do not change, while concurrently accepting evolution - the two beliefs are incompatible)

You don't know how this professor teaches his course (I'm not even really sure what course it is, beyond 'biology', perhaps someone ought to go look it up, for all we know it could be introductory immunology, which needs to have little, if anything, to do with evolution or creationism), so you can't really assert that he is driving a wedge between the two,

[TooCute]

In the letter, Schmidly (Texas Tech president) said he personally knew several devoutly Christian students for whom Dini wrote letters of recommendation. Dini has written letters for Christian students who demonstrated understanding of the scientific principle of evolution.

"No student felt his/her personal beliefs were ever in question or that his questions in any way discriminated against them," Schmidly wrote. "In other words, professor Dini, himself a devout Christian who studied for the priesthood be fore entering graduate school, is interested in a student's understanding of the scientific principles of evolution. I do not find this discriminatory."

Schmidly and Smith(Texas Tech Chancellor) noted there are several professors from whom students can receive letters of recommendation for medical school.

In a letter dated Oct. 11, 2002, Smith said he knew of 38 other faculty members who can write letters of recommendation for medical school.

"A letter of recommendation is a personal matter between a professor and a student and is not subject to university control or regulation," Smith wrote.

I fully agree.

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[TooCute]

"That would be denying my faith as a Christian," said Mr. Spradling, a junior raised in Lubbock who plans to study prosthetics and orthotics at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas. "They've taken prayer out of schools and the Ten Commandments out of courtrooms, so I thought I had an opportunity to make a difference."

There you have it. Denying him his religious freedoms, my ass. This kid just wants his religion (christianity) to be in schools.

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[ADF]

After reading those quotes, I agree with you completely.

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[spoon]

After reading these quotes, I concur with both too cute and adf.


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[TheMojoPin]

After finishing this bag of jerkey, I'm inclined to agree with Spoon.

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[ADF]

After agreeing with TooCute, Spoon, and Mojo, I'm inclined to eat a bag of jerkey.

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[TooCute]

I guess I need to take some lessons from Heckler. Boy was that an unsatisfying discussion.

So, anyone want to talk about the University of Michigan's admissions policy? :)

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[A.J.]

The student should have skipped the teacher altogether and gone right to the source: he should have asked God to miracle him a recommendation.

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[TheMojoPin]

he should have asked God to miracle him a recommendation.

Can you get that Biggie-Sized?

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[HordeKing1]

This is such a great thread. I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to respond sooner.

I agree that a recomendation is not an obligation of any professor (unless so stated in University policy), but is rather given to students who the professor has gotten to know, respect and like.

Given that this student was religious and knew this professor's policy, it looks like he was just out to make a ruckus and try to impose his personal morals upon the professor, instead of the professor imposing his professional opinion on the students who ask him for the favor of a recomendation.

If this professor was out to screw him for being religious, he could have easily and much more simply given him an abominable "recomendation" letter so that he wouldn't be accepted to any school.

Why did the professor ask what he did? I can think of at least one valid explanation. Perhaps the professor feels that an MD should rely on science for cure rather than god. As a patient, I know I'd feel much better if a doctor told me "We're doing everything we can," as opposed to, "It's in God's hands now."

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[TooCute]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030423/pl_afp/us_justice_religion_030423142852

and update on the story...

the professor amended his website, and the justice department dropped its probe.

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[HordeKing1]

Terrific. The professor is forced to change a rational policy, clearly stated in advance, and the religous agitators graciously agree not to pursue their "holy crusade" against science.

Are we in for another dark ages? For centuries, the Church suppressed any type of science that conflicted with creationism. If they hadn't we'd all have flying cars and robot servants by now.

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[TheMojoPin]

If they hadn't we'd all have flying cars and robot servants by now.

Please see my "the goddamn church is keeping me from jetpacks with it's insane pro-spermblob logic"-theory in an earlier thread. Great minds DO think alike.

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[furie]

All right! Way to cave!
Yay conformity! Yay!


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[Captain Stubing]

So in the end, it accepted a small concession from Dini, who had agreed to drop his demand that students "affirm" their personal belief in evolution while continuing to insist that they be able to "explain" Darwin's theory.

I'm not sure I see the hubub here. It seems Dini wanted students seeking a letter to ADOPT his belief system, which is far different then being able to DESCRIBE its core element without it having it supplant or superceed your particular worldview. I don't think the former should be required, especially at a state-funded school.

Fezaesthesia - Prognosis poor...

[TheMojoPin]

Who the hell "believes" in evolution? The only things you need to "believe" in are those that you can't actually prove. You might not ACCEPT evolution, but saying that you don't believe in it is a little nutty. It's like if I suddenly decided to not believe in dinosaurs or something.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 4-25-03 @ 5:11 PM

[TooCute]

I'm not sure I see the hubub here. It seems Dini wanted students seeking a letter to ADOPT his belief system, which is far different then being able to DESCRIBE its core element without it having it supplant or superceed your particular worldview. I don't think the former should be required, especially at a state-funded school.


He very clearly stated why he thought doctors needed to believe in evolution. He apparently felt that just being able to spew back without believing wasn't good enough.

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[CruelCircus]

Do you think a professor could get away with saying "I don't do recommendations"? No chance.

I know of a number of professors who do exactly that.

The rationale seems to be that if they do none, they won't offend anyone by saying they can't or won't when being selective. (I suppose it could also be to avoid any appearance or accusation of favoritism. It could just be plain laziness, too, which I think is the most likely scenario.)

You might not ACCEPT evolution, but saying that you don't believe in it is a little nutty. It's like if I sudenly decided to not believe in dinosaurs or something.

Believe it or not, those people are out there, too.

Jim


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This message was edited by CruelCircus on 4-25-03 @ 4:51 PM