BUSH'S WAR AGAINST WOMEN

[HordeKing1]

Since December 2000, Planned Parenthood Federation of America has been documenting, publicizing and speaking out against the Bush administration's widespread attacks on women, choice and other reproductive rights.

Now, after publishing our timeline of Bush's almost monthly assault on the bodies and lives of women, our warning is being heard. In today's Sunday New York Times (1/12/03) the lead editorial lays out the same message: President Bush, stop your war on women.

To see the full Planned Parenthood document "War on Women: A Chronology" go to www.saveROE.com. We are also including below an excerpt from our report "War on Women: A Pernicious Web" which puts Bush's actions in context and exposes his agenda to undermine reproductive freedom.

It is more important than ever that you stand up and speak out on these important issues. We need the pro-choice majority to make their voices heard and send a clear strong message to President Bush and his anti-choice colleagues in Congress. You can make a difference by taking action now, sending this email to your friends and networks, writing letters to your newspapers, and staying informed about the current threats to Roe v. Wade. Visit www.saveROE.com often.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[TheMojoPin]

Out of idle curiosity, why is this in "General Discussion" and not "Off Topic"?

And while I agree with many of the sentiments, saying that Bush has a "war on women" is far too melodramatic and alarmist. He may be "getting his war on" with social issues that involve or focus on women, but to say he's fixin' to rumble with an entire gender is a tad absurd.

<img src=http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/philex/mjpin1.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[The Blowhard]

Ranting about Bush in "General Discussion"? Cool. I hope R&F perform an on air abortion tomorrow, that would be cool.
HK, I think it's time for a little blue pill and a few deep breaths. :)

<img src=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/EverybodyLovesHeckSIG.gif>
THAT'S Amore!

[FUNKMAN]

, I think it's time for a little blue pill and a few deep breaths


microdot perhaps?

brings back memories or is it deletes memories...

I'm sure there are good points to be taken from Horde's post but i have to admit that i am a lazy ass when it comes to digging into politics and being able to determine the exact affect of the decisions that are made...

<img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/funkman.gif">

"and when you're bad you die when you die"

[FiveB247]

Too bad Geroge Sr. and Barbara didn't abort.

[angrymissy]

Bush IS commiting a war against women. Read up on what he's been doing, its sick.

I have articles I'll post tomorrow, the stance he is taking on womens rights is absolutely disgusting

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[Bergalad]

Sheesh Chicken Little, freak out a bit more. RvW is not going to be overturned any time soon (if ever), and saying that the President has declared war on women is terribly insulting to those of us in the military. We are the ones who wage the President's wars, and you don't see any of us attacking abortion clinics, do you? If you want to make a point, great. Just try being responsible when you do it. <P>

[TheMojoPin]

Two things that will NEVER happen:

A Republican turning over Roe vs. Waid.

A Democrat mucking significantly and effectively with the right to bear arms.

Those kinds of changes would actually require balls and convictions. Sorry.

<img src=http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/philex/mjpin1.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 1-13-03 @ 1:44 AM

[The Blowhard]

"Tomorrow Night On Ron and Fez": Harry Elvis and Wonderboy compete in the "Coat Hanger Challenge"!

<img src=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/EverybodyLovesHeckSIG.gif>
THAT'S Amore!

[The Blowhard]

Those kinds of changes would actually require balls and convictions. Sorry.




Finally, some logic. Thanks Mr. Spock.

<img src=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/EverybodyLovesHeckSIG.gif>
THAT'S Amore!

[TheMojoPin]

Finally, some logic. Thanks Mr. Spock.

Hey, I'm jaunty.

<img src=http://www.fiftiesweb.com/wt/nimoy-zamora.jpg>

<img src=http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/philex/mjpin1.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Bob Impact]

President has declared war on women is terribly insulting to those of us in the military

Because there's never been a War on Drugs or a War on Homelessness? "War on" is a simple and effective phrase. Please don't drag the miltary angle into political debates on Social issues not regarding defense, it weakens and colors your arguement, and demontrates several fallacies of arguement.

<a href="http://www.wetware.com/drieux/BeyondKampfKultur/LogicFault.html">Read up on Fallacies of Relevance</a>



<center><img src="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/bobimpact.gif"><br>
<a href="http://www.silentspic.com" target="_blank">Thanks, Silent Spic!</a> - <a href="http://bobimpact.coolfreepage.com/">Ron and Fez Drop Archive</a></center>

[fluffernutter]

Cool. I hope R&F perform an on air abortion tomorrow, that would be cool.



I'll bring the hanger.



<IMG SRC="http://home.1asphost.com/bobimpact/fluff1.gif ">

Thanks FelixDelGato and BobImpact

[Bama]

You know I was kind of on the fence before but after reading this I've finally decided that I don't like him.

I think everyone can get together and agree that Bush stinks!

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HOOK EM HORNS!!!

[Bergalad]

"...and demontrates several fallacies of arguement." I love it when people try to sound intelligent but only end up looking like an idiot. Try working in complete sentences sometime, especially ones that are grammatically sound. The Government has "declared" a "war on drugs", and if you pulled your head out you would know that the military is actively engaged in that mission. Who ever heard of a war on homelessness? I was telling HK to chill and not overblow an issue; you're just being silly. "It weakens and colors your arguement"? Whatever lol.



This message was edited by Bergalad on 1-13-03 @ 2:31 PM

[Yerdaddy]

Bob Impact - please post that link in every political thread. I'd like to declare War on Fallacies right here and now. And, if it makes Bergalad happy, I will be using the army to wage it. Bergalad, I order you to storm whatever building you're in and take yourself prisoner for hypostatization. There will be logic textbooks and desensitivity training at Camp X-Ray for you to regain your citizenship.

<img src="http://yerdaddy.homestead.com/files/pics/sigyalta.jpg" >
It was a joke goddammit!

[Yerdaddy]

**satire alert**

Washington - (AP) Today George Bush announced his new "Every Sperm is Sacred" program. The President said today, "Every shperm is sacredicioush. Every shperm ish great. When a shperm ish, well when it is washted, God getsh quite iritadeous."

**satire alert**

<img src="http://yerdaddy.homestead.com/files/pics/sigyalta.jpg" >
It was a joke goddammit!

[Dewey]

It takes some very twisted thinking to equate the desire to protect unborn children with a "war on women".

The whole "pro-choice" euphemism is ludicrous. How would you feel about pro-choice slavery: "If you don't like slaves, then don't own one?"

Roe v. Wade was a very dangerous decision. It represented a usurpation of the legitimate powers of the legislative branch by a small group of appointed-for-life individuals. One of the greatest threats to the government's responsiveness to the will of the people is a judiciary run amok.

If you want a law passed, pass the law. But don't turn the legal system into a frenzy over who gets judges appointed, and then whine when it comes back to bite you in the ass.

If you are at all open-minded on the subject, which I seriously doubt, I suggest you watch a couple of videos such as "The Silent Scream". If you walk away from those without a tear in your eye, you don't have a soul.

<IMG SRC="http://www.agw-werbeartikel.de/images/easy-rider.jpg"><br>"Still searching for America."

[silera]

Try working in complete sentances sometime, especially ones that are grammatically sound.

Here's an unsolicited tip: When trying to point out someone else's grammar and/or spelling errors, check your own first.

It takes some very twisted thinking to equate the desire to protect unborn children with a "war on women".
It's fascinating that while all these republican's are hell bent on protecting the "unborn" they completely drop the ball after the child is born.

Sadly, one of the major factors that comes into play when a women and her partner decide whether or not they can have a child is their financial situation, yet in recent years major cuts have been made in social welfare programs.

Children make up the largest group of people in poverty. Possibly, the government should be focusing on getting the children that are already born out of poverty instead augmenting the numbers.


<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=white>

[TheMojoPin]

If you are at all open-minded on the subject, which I seriously doubt, I suggest you watch a couple of videos such as "The Silent Scream". If you walk away from those without a tear in your eye, you don't have a soul.

You say you doubt the "other side's" openmindedness, but then make the overtly blanket statement that they're "soulless" if they watch "Silent Scream" without crying...and thusly being convinced that your "side" is "right", right?

It's not that easily defined. Personally, I would never support someone I know getting an abortion (Unless it was for health reasons), now would I want my partner to get an abortion. I do, however, support the right for others to make the decsion to do so.

<img src=http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/philex/mjpin1.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

It's fascinating that while all these republican's are hell bent on protecting the "unborn" they completely drop the ball after the child is born.

Sadly, one of the major factors that comes into play when a women and her partner decide whether or not they can have a child is their financial situation, yet in recent years major cuts have been made in social welfare programs.

Children make up the largest group of people in poverty. Possibly, the government should be focusing on getting the children that are already born out of poverty instead augmenting the numbers.

Catch 22, baby! Who loves ya?!?

<img src=http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/philex/mjpin1.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Drudge Jr.]

dont get me wrong, i hate bush and i'm completely pro-choice, but from a conservatives position being against abortion is not being against women's rights, it's being pro-fetus rights. this certainly is not a war on women from their perspective

[center]
<img src="http://drudgejr.com/ronfezsig.GIF">

[angrymissy]

I would like to discuss "The Silent Scream", a supposed video of an abortion taking place.

The "Silent Scream" is RIDDLED with inaccuracies, including the film being sped up and slowed down to make it look like a 12 week old fetus is trying to "escape" the abortion.

The doctor performing the abortion in that video, is performing it on a woman he impregnanted. And the doc is supposedly "pro-life". He is a zealot.

A fetus is not an "unborn baby". Thats like saying you have an "unborn teenager". A fetus is a parasite until it can live outside a woman's womb. Peroid. I can't believe that any man would have the audacity to try and argue this point with a woman. It's really easy to be against choice, when you'll never have to make the choice yourself.

FYI - I've had abortions in the past, and you can never truely understand it, until you've been there.

For a rather lengthy document prepared by 10 respected medical doctors, that DEBUNKS the "Silent Scream", you can <a href="http://www.plannedparenthood.org/abortion/silentscream.HTM">click here for a link</a>
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This message was edited by angrymissy on 1-13-03 @ 10:26 AM

[angrymissy]

Another point -

Bush has appointed David Hager to the FDA's Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee. This is an ultra-conservative OB-GYN, who has prescribed PRAYER to women with severe PMS and menstrual cramps, and refuses to prescribe birth control to unmarried women. And he's going to be participating on the <b>Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee</b>. Doesn't make much sense to me.

Sounds like a real winner there...


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[Tenbatsuzen]

Those kinds of changes would actually require balls and convictions. Sorry.



Maybe Mr. Sterling and Josiah Bartlett can help turn Washington around!

<img src="http://www.nbc.com/promotes_images/3898.jpg">

<img src="http://www.nbc.com/images_show/152x81_ww.jpg">

Too bad Washington is more like this...

<img src="http://www.nbc.com/promotes_images/3401.gif">



<img src="http://tenbatsuzen.homestead.com/files/joesig1.jpg">
Impossible is just a negotiation.

[A.J.]

Too bad Washington is more like this...


DC government is even worse. Here's a recent article about a man who has successfully evaded paying child support to kids from two different relationships -- and was made head of D.C.'s child-support enforcement agency!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40828-2003Jan10.html

<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/ajdcsig.jpg">

A Skidmark production.

[TooCute]

A Republican turning
over Roe vs. Waid.
Those kinds of changes
would actually require balls
and convictions. Sorry.


What makes you so sure?
Consider the facts in the
following links. I tried to find
links that were unbiased,
but I failed; consider only
the stances on abortion of
the current supreme court
justices/how many are likely
to retire/who gets to replace
them, Vice-President
Cheney's comments
(essentially: "So the Bush
administration won't try to
overturn Roe v. Wade?" "I
didn't say that."), and the
Bush administration's
actions (relevant bit: "
President Bush's secretary
of health and human
services spearheaded the
move that, by next month,
will redefine a fetus as a
child eligible for federally
funded health care under
the Children's Health
Insurance Program")

Knowing this, you can
declare so firmly that Roe v.
Wade absolutely will not be
overturned? I'm not trying to
convince you that you
should be pro-choice. Just
trying to suggest that Roe v
Wade may not be as
unassailable as you seem
to think it is.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=chronicle/archive/2002/10/01/ED103934.DTL

http://www.cwnews.com/Browse/2001/01/14769.htm

http://www.feminist.org/appointmentwatch/court.asp

(JustJon is my favorite mod)


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ADF makes great sigpics!

This message was edited by JustJon on 1-13-03 @ 2:18 PM

[Thebazile78]

Now, after publishing our timeline of Bush's almost monthly assault on the bodies and lives of women, our warning is being heard. In today's Sunday New York Times (1/12/03) the lead editorial lays out the same message: President Bush, stop your war on women.

I've already linked that editorial here : http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm?CurrentPage=1&forum=69&Topic=23022&RequestTimeout=500

But, for good measure, the link is: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/opinion/12SUN1.html

I fear criminalizing abortions both for those who perform them AND those who seek them, which have been threatened in senatorial races. I fear the inaccessibility of prophylactics. I fear the high-and-mighty pro-lifers at my former church who have their neat-and-tidy, whiter than white-bread, upper middle-class homes with only 1 or 2 kids preaching at Sunday services about how there are thousands of babies born each year to be adopted. Well, if your heart's so big and bleeding, why don't you adopt a couple? Why not? I'll tell you why not. Many of those "unwanted" infants aren't white. Or the kids are born with drug/alcohol addictions and problems. Or the kids have tested positive for HIV.

What makes these infants any less precious than another? What makes them any less adoptable? Some mothers know that.

There's an episode of E.R. where an abortion clinic is bombed and the ER treats the people who were there. You hear arguments as to why abortions were performed/sought that run the gamut from "I don't want my husband to know" to "I don't use birth-control pills because my boyfriend doesn't like it when I get fat and he won't wear a condom." People get up on their moral soapboxes and high-horses and bad things happen. It's an interesting episode and I feel it's pertinent to the discussion.

Silera has a very good point.

I also wonder what kind of reasoning and jumps in logic it takes to justify protecting "unborn children", yet not support things like universal immunizations/health care, education and FOOD for kids who may live at/below the poverty line, argue against social programs designed to protect kids from child abuse and neglect, argue against gun-control laws, support the death penalty and neglect our elderly population at the end of their lives.

Don't all these issues fall under a "pro-life" stance? If you truly believe that life begins at conception, when does it stop being so important?





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<br>"If human beings stopped exercising their lips, their brains would start working" - Ford Prefect

[The Blowhard]

I always thought the abortion issue was a "red herring" during election time, much like the death penalty issue. It panders to Pro-Lifers and gets out the Right Wing voters. I think that Roe vs. Wade will NEVER be reversed and if it was individual states will have the final say. Besides, all politicians live and die by public opinion polling and the overwhelming majority of Americans support abortion rights. I think saying that Bush is waging war against women is a bit drastic. Besides, Republicans want more poor people to have babies, that way they can exploit them as cheap labor as they grow older.

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This message was edited by Heckler on 1-13-03 @ 12:19 PM

[angrymissy]

It takes some very twisted thinking to equate the desire to protect unborn children with a "war on women".

The whole "pro-choice" euphemism is ludicrous. How would you feel about pro-choice slavery: "If you don't like slaves, then don't own one?"


Do you believe abortion should be outlawed?

Do you believe women who obtain abortions should be prosecuted?

Do you believe that life begins at conception?

Do you believe that women should not be able to abort for medical reasons?

Another question. I became pregnant and had an abortion when I was 15. Do you believe that I should have carried that unwanted baby to term? I don't think I did at 15. I'm glad I lived in a place and time where I could obtain a legal, safe, abortion, becuase if it wasn't legal, I would have taken drastic measures to end that pregnancy.

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This message was edited by angrymissy on 1-13-03 @ 12:22 PM

[Tenbatsuzen]

Liberals on the warpath, look out.

Since Roe vs. Wade has been enacted, we've had more Republicans in the Oval Office then Democrats.

There is no way the status quo will be upset at this point.

Abortion is the dirty little secret that people know it happens, but no one talks about it. And those who do talk about it, it's a bunch of hot air.

I hate to say it, but abortion is needed because if it wasn't in place, it would put a greater strain on the welfare and public resources of the government.

For Roe vs. Wade to be overthrown, there would be SUCH an incredible public upheaval that it would take several years of intense debate.

Unwanted pregnancies are like cancer. Growths that get bigger and bigger that have unwanted profound life-changing effects that have to be removed to ensure quality of life.

Yes, I'm equating unwanted fetus with tumors. You aren't going to be a good parent if you're not in the proper mindset to begin with.


It's not happening, so chill out.



<img src="http://tenbatsuzen.homestead.com/files/joesig1.jpg">
Impossible is just a negotiation.

This message was edited by Tenbatsuzen on 1-13-03 @ 12:29 PM

[TooCute]

It's not happening,
so chill out.

But it IS happening, as we
speak. Slowly, policy is
moving towards that
direction. Please read the
information in the links that I
posted earlier in this thread.

It is like saying "WNEW will
never change formats so
don't worry". Guess what?
WNEW is a talk station now.


<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
ADF makes great sigpics!

[Tenbatsuzen]

Please read the
information in the links that I
posted earlier in this thread.



What part did you miss about me saying that this talk is nothing but hot air? Especially if it's coming from a left or right wing writer, ESPECIALLY on a "dirty little secret" subject like this!

Let me ask you this. If things were so bad, would the morning-after pill been allowed for use in the United States?

When the morning-after pill's usage is disallowed, *THEN* I'll be worried and start to pay attention. That would be pro-life's first step in getting Roe v. Wade overturned.

Nobody has convictions. No one will upset the status quo, especially if it works. It's all conjecture and blabbing from BOTH sides.

There is a key phrase here... "Checks and Balances". Third grade social studies. We don't live in a Republican utopia.


<img src="http://tenbatsuzen.homestead.com/files/joesig1.jpg">
Impossible is just a negotiation.

This message was edited by Tenbatsuzen on 1-13-03 @ 1:15 PM

[TooCute]

What part did you
miss about me saying that
this talk is nothing but hot
air? Especially if it's coming
from a left or right wing
writer, ESPECIALLY on a
"dirty little secret" subject
like this!

Once again, I reiterate (yes,
that makes it now the third
time) that I point you merely
to the facts contained in
what I linked to. One more
pro-life supreme court
justice COULD lead to an
overturning of Roe v. Wade.
Dick Cheney (who is
admittedly non-existent, and
also technically an
"ultra-right wing writer", I
suppose, so maybe you
should disregard what he
says) said that he didn't say
he and his administration
would not try to overturn
Roe v. Wade. And even if
the Bush administration
DID declare life to start at
conception simply for the
sake of allowing for better
pre-natal care, it remains a
fact that this makes it easier
to pass anti-abortion
legislation.

And abortion is not really a
"dirty little secret"; it is and
has been an ongoing
debate very much in the
public. Political campaigns
have been based on it. It's
not hidden.

Let me ask you this.
If things were so bad, would
the morning-after pill been
allowed for use in the
United States?
When the morning-after
pill's usage is disallowed,
*THEN* I'll be worried and
start to pay attention. That
would be pro-life's first step
in getting Roe v. Wade
overturned

I am assuming that in fact
you have mixed up "the
morning after pill" with
Mifepristone ("the abotion
pill" or "RU-486"), because
the morning after pill (which
is merely a high dose of
estrogen/progesterone),
has in truth little to do with
abortion, per se. It prevents
ovulation. It does not abort.

The long struggle to get
Mifepristone (which does
induce abortions) legal in
the US should be some
indictaion as to how
precarious pro-choice
regulartions in the US are;
granted many of the bumps
were not related to the
pro-choice/pro-life debate.

I do not undersand why you
would consider the banning
of an abortion drug the first
step towards the
over-turning of Roe v. Wade,
but not the declaration that
a child, from the moment of
conception, is eligible for
federal health insurance.

That's right. A child - a
person - from the moment
of conception.

Or did you perhaps forget
that Roe v. Wade was
decided based on the ruling
that "person", as defined by
the 14th amendment, does
not include the unborn?


<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
ADF makes great sigpics!

[Thebazile78]

It panders to Pro-Lifers and gets out the Right Wing voters.

True enough, but the reason the policies come up again and again are because they attempt to enact laws, etc., to reassure those constituents that they mean business.

The most wretched thing about this whole issue is that who's gonna come out and vote? Older people, like my grandma, who vote down school budgets and vote "pro-life" because it doesn't jive with their version of reality.

So far, to make my voice heard, I have voted in 2 presidential elections, several local elections (4) and at least 1 gubernatorial election and still intend on voting to make my arrogant little voice heard.

Will I ever win out against the Senior Citizens? Maybe not, but I'm not about to get apathetic about it now.

I've had an immense amout of difficulty deciding on candidates' worthiness because it's so difficult for me to find the real issues.

And to sort out what you've identified as "red herrings". Perhaps they are red herrings thrown out there to get us off the trail of larger issues, so we fight amongst ourselves and don't pay attention to the "big picture". . . or maybe I'm just paranoid.

I'm not sure yet.




<img src="http://tenbatsuzen.homestead.com/files/bazile78sig.jpg">
<br>"If human beings stopped exercising their lips, their brains would start working" - Ford Prefect

[FUNKMAN]

a co-worker just retired, he was 72 years old, retired Marine, the actual Jesse James played cards in his Grandfathers Saloon, and his Grandmother confided in him before she died. She told him that she had given herself 7 abortions... She already had 11 children and said that she loved to have sex...

Not totally "on topic" but all this abortion talk reminded me of my co-workers story...

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"and when you're bad you die when you die"

[Bergalad]

A fetus is a parasite until it can live outside a woman's womb. Peroid. <P>
Hey, not trying to provoke anything, but I have a question about that. No matter if a woman wants to keep her fetus to term or not, if that fetus is killed by someone (through violence let's say) then the person who does that can and often is charged with murder. My thing is this: how does the government reconcile allowing doctors to terminate a fetus legally, but then also consider it murder if someone terminates a fetus through violence? I don't have a problem necessarily with women doing what they want; it's their bodies. I would however like to see a consistant legal and moral understanding on when

[angrymissy]

Those laws are usually based on viability. After 24 weeks gestation, a fetus is considered viable (can live outside of the mothers womb).

Abortion is illegal in New York State after 24 weeks, except to save the life of the woman, or when fetal anolamities are discovered and the fetus is incompatible with life.

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[Bergalad]

...life begins. Just wondering. <P>

[Bergalad]

Yeah AM, but I also know (no I don't have any cases right in front of me) that it happens before that viability criteria is reached in many cases. What about those? <P>

[Sheeplovr]

http://www.thegifthouse.net/PageMill_Images2/wirehanger_plain.gif

number 333 its the way to be
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POWER AND CHAOS

[angrymissy]

Yeah AM, but I also know (no I don't have any cases right in front of me) that it happens before that viability criteria is reached in many cases. What about those?

That I can't answer. There is a difference between a wanted pregnancy and an unwanted pregnancy. My only theory on those laws (I don't know much about them) could be that, you were attacked and your fetus was damaged against your will. Whereas with an abortion, you are making the choice for yourself.

Some of these laws are also passed with a pro-life agenda in mind. A lot of laws are being passed to try and recognize the fetus as a person from the moment of conception. These laws are, IMO, sneaky ways for politicians to start the process of criminalizing abortion. My personal belief is that life does not start until the fetus can survive outside the womb on its own.

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[angrymissy]

I did find a link that provides a state by state breakdown of who has "fetal rights" laws. <a href="http://www.nrlc.org/Unborn_Victims/Statehomicidelaws092302.html">Click Here<a>

When they refer to a "quick" fetus, that means the fetus is viable (quick referring to kicking or moving in the womb, which usually happens around 22-24 weeks).


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This message was edited by angrymissy on 1-13-03 @ 2:02 PM

[Bergalad]

My personal belief is that life does not start until the fetus can survive outside the womb on its own. <P>
And I won't argue with that. This is certainly a hot issue, one that won't be solved any time soon. These things are good to talk about, and it makes me glad that we live in a country where we can not only talk, but also do. It is inflammatory words (like 'War') that have only made this issue more contentious. I have to hope and believe that cooler heads will maintain and preserve that fine line between personal freedom and moral responsibility. <P>

[Bergalad]

Thanks for the info AM. Those are exactly what I am talking about. The government seems to be at odds with itself by allowing 'state-sanctioned' fetal termination, but prosecute individuals for murder. Guess that can be looped into the Death Penalty arguement too, but I don't want to start anything there hehe. <P>

[TheMojoPin]

What makes you so sure?
Consider the facts in the
following links.

Look how close the last election was. The parties can only win now by catering to the huge part of the population that falls into that big, gray politcal "middle-area". Doing something as hardline as banning abortion would simply drive away too many "part time" or "compassionate" conservatives for the Republicans to hold power.

<img src=http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/philex/mjpin1.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Recyclerz]

Just a little news clip about Justice Antonin Scalia who Supreme Court pundits predict will be appointed as Chief Justice by Bush when Rehnquist retires. <P> http://http://www.msnbc.com/news/858570.asp?0cl=cR <P> Anyone who thinks that Roe v. Wade can't or won't be overturned is adopting the ostrich position, in my opinion. The Anti-choice/Pro-life movement is very well organized, well funded and politically savvy. They are much better organized than the Pro-choice movement, especially in the South, Mid- west and in the middle of the Country. They know that John Paul Stevens is 82 years old and if Bush gets to replace him on the Court the reliable Roe supporters go down to three (Souter, Ginsberg & Breyer) out of nine. <P> <P> <P> <P>

You're only young once, but you can be immature forever.

[TheMojoPin]

I always thought the abortion issue was a "red herring" during election time, much like the death penalty issue. It panders to Pro-Lifers and gets out the Right Wing voters. I think that Roe vs. Wade will NEVER be reversed and if it was individual states will have the final say. Besides, all politicians live and die by public opinion polling and the overwhelming majority of Americans support abortion rights.

Heck, you and I are agreeing on so many issues now, it's terrifying.

Prayer in school. The death penalty. Abortion. Gun rights. These are all HUGE issues that supposedly define the most passionate aspects of either major American politcal party. These are the issues that candidates tow out constantly to appeal to the voters who live in the black & white "I only always vote Democrat/Republican" world. These are issues that if altered to swing further towards either party's ideals they would ensure that the persons in power would NOT be re-elected. There's too large a voting block that hovers on the fences of the respective parties, just waiting for something that "radical" to push them away, and there's not a politician alive that's going to willingly push away that block. It's politcal suicide.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 1-13-03 @ 2:41 PM

[The Blowhard]

Heck, you and I are agreeing on so many issues now, it's terrifying. <P>
Just when you think you can figure me out, wham, bang zoom! I am neither Republican or Democrat, I guess I'm just disillusioned and a tad cynical. As a younger man I actually believed in the system. Boy, was I duped! The DNC, RNC, it makes NO difference. They look out for #1, and we ain't even #2! It's all about the greenbacks. Idealism is dead, or at least to those that run things. I also suggest that people take everything they read with a "grain of salt".
Everybody has an agenda, or they are "on the take". And remember this: the majority of the news that we get is news from a corporate source, like the evil Fox News with Darth Murdoch.



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THAT'S Amore!

This message was edited by Heckler on 1-13-03 @ 3:38 PM

[NewYorkDragons80]

In today's Sunday New York Times (1/12/03) the lead editorial lays out the same message: President Bush, stop your war on women.
The New York Times? Those bleeding-heart conservatives?

When protesters outside an abortion clinic declare that Planned Parenthood is waging a war against children, they are torn apart by the pro-Choice side. What I want to know is why a political stance interpretted as a declaration of war?

<marquee>
"In war there is no substitute for victory." -General Douglas MacArthur "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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[NewYorkDragons80]

Children make up the largest group of people in poverty.
Ah, so a poverty-stricken life has less worth than a life of financial security.

<marquee>
"In war there is no substitute for victory." -General Douglas MacArthur "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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[FiveB247]

This topic is spiraling down like a plane with one wing.

[Coco]

saying that Bush has a "war on women" is far too melodramatic

ditto

______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive

This message was edited by Coco on 1-13-03 @ 6:45 PM

[TooCute]

The whole
"pro-choice" euphemism is
ludicrous. How would you
feel about pro-choice
slavery: "If you don't like
slaves, then don't own one?


Your statement is ludicrous.
Slevery and abortion can
not be equated; in one
instance it is a person
forcing another to do what
they say; in the other it is a
woman making a choice to
do what she likes with her
body.

The root of the whole
debate, of course, is
whether a ball or cells or an
embryo or even a fetus is a
'person' that the woman is
'killing'. However, this
thread is not about being
pro-choice or pro-life.

It is about President Bush
furthering his pro-life
agenda.

And I for one don't want him
forcing me to do what he
says.


<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
ADF makes great sigpics!

[HordeKing1]

I am sickened by some of the sentiments echoed here. It reminds me of the Jews in Nazi Germany who hid their heads in the sand until it was too late.

Bush is actively trying to overturn Roe v. Wade. He is actively nominating only anti-abortion nuts to Federal Courts. (I refuse to use the euphemism pro-life. They're not pro-life, they're anti-choice.) The conservative Supreme Court is growing more conservative. The list of Bush's nominations is simply frightening.

And it's not just abortion that Bush is involving himself with in his WAR AGAINST WOMEN. He is trying to link welfare benefits to marriage for example (as if a single mom, didn't need welfare the most). It's just another example of his horrible religious "values" (hah!) that serve to negatively affect all women and the men who love them.

And the "silent scream?" What ignorance! I beg you to go to the link provided by AMB. Every aspect of that deplorable anti-chioce propeganda film is flat out fraudulent.

And Tenbats - What the hell are you talking about? Abortion a dirty little secret that no one talks about? (Shakes head). Even before abortion was officially "legal" it was discussed and an option used by thousands of people. Many died from these back alley abortions (Except for the rich, who somehow always managed to find good doctors willing to perform abortions in sterile settings). Abortion is one of the most widely discussed topic today. As usual, when it comes to things like this, the US sadly lags behind the rest of the civil world.

Maybe one day, this crap can stop and we, as a society, can recognize a woman's right to self-determination.



<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[Captain Rooster]

Bottom line: Abortion is murder.

'Nuff said.



<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/roosterclawsanime.gif>

[luvmedoo]

Your an idiot! I bet you put your wife to sleep in the bedroom during foreplay.

You spread your views on how awful Bush is, and how religion is so fucked up. You couldn't run this country any better mister. Get off your ass and get a job! Make something worth while of yourself instead of ranting about your idiolistic views, and why everyone should follow.

Can't buy me love....

[luvmedoo]

Single hardworking moms who deservingly need welfare should get it, but the ones that are soaking up welfare are the single moms who deliberately have 12 kids, who won't get an education, or a job, and live off food stamps. That shit should stop!
Bush also needs to crack down on people who soak up disability who are able to work. Comprehenda?

Can't buy me love....

[TheMojoPin]

Just when you think you can figure me out, wham, bang zoom! I am neither Republican or Democrat, I guess I'm just disillusioned and a tad cynical. As a younger man I actually believed in the system.

....

I know you're my daddy...but are you my father?

<img src=http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/philex/mjpin1.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[rmw]

Punching out...

"And the meek shall inherit the earth."



This message was edited by rmw on 1-15-03 @ 10:02 PM

[TooCute]

Your an idiot! I bet
you put your wife to sleep in
the bedroom during
foreplay.

Comments like this hae no
place in a serious thread. I
don't mean to talk for HK,
but really you should
question ideas, not attack
people.


<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/toocute2.gif>
ADF makes great sigpics!

[luvmedoo]

. Any strong, dominant male forces Horde to realize his own inadequacies-both intellectually and as a man.


Thats because he is a sissy boy. His wife must wear the pants in the family. He must have pussy envy.

Can't buy me love....

[TheMojoPin]

If you have an opinion on the issue at hand, please contribute. If you're simply going to attack other board members, kindly go and punch your own brain in the nuts.

<img src=http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/philex/mjpin1.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Bergalad]

I am sickened by some of the sentiments echoed here. It reminds me of the Jews in Nazi Germany who hid their heads in the sand until it was too late. <P>
Jews killed in WWII: 3,000,000+ (est.) Fetuses aborted per year: 46,000,000 (est.) <P>
HK, it was the rest of Europe and, sadly, America too who turned a blind eye to the plight of the Jews. They did try to flee Germany, but when every country denied them entry, they were trapped. It is insightful however that you refer to the deaths of millions of people who were considered less than human with the abortion issue. The world finally realized that the Jews deserved a life just like the rest of us, that they were human too. What will we do if we discover the same is true of the fetuses you are so joyfully aborting? A woman should be able to decide for herself, but there needs to be some responsibility taken as well. The zealots on both sides in here are an example of why this issue will never be resolved. <P>

[NewYorkDragons80]

Your statement is ludicrous.
Slevery and abortion can
not be equated: in one
instance it is a person
forcing another to do what
they say: in the other it is a
woman making a choice to
do what she likes with her
body.
In Ancient Rome a man's wife and kids were considered his property and he could do with them what he wished. (After all, they were just clusters of cells who would not be alive if not for him.) If he chose to terminate them, it would be totally lawful, though obviously wrong. I suppose abortion is acceptable because it empowers women. Women have and deserve the right to vote, own land, and hold political office. Abortion is not one of those rights.

<marquee>
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[silera]

Ah, so a poverty-stricken life has less worth than a life of financial security

No.

Re-read the statement.

Abortion is a last resort to many women. Unfortunately, if it is not left as an option, the women with the least financial resources will be the ones that will be forced to birth an unwanted child.

Women with resources will just have to board a plane to Canada or any other nation that doesn't have its head up its ass on this issue. The women without resources will bear children and either unload them on an already overburdened foster care system, or raise them with less resources.

It's a domino effect. Unwanted children don't get enough love, are more prone to child abuse, neglect and malnourishment. They then don't do well in school and become truants and juvenile delinquents.

If the government was really interested in protecting children, be they born or unborn, they'd work on providing universal healthcare, paid maternity leave, fund headstart for ALL children, and provide quality education and viable day care options for all parents.

I'm a single mom. I chose to have both my children, but I don't think every woman is able to do what I do. I don't know how I do what I do.

The government wants to dictate what a woman does with her body, then they should take responsibility for the consequences. As it stands now, they don't.



<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=white>

[NewYorkDragons80]

They're not pro-life, they're anti-choice
That's so close-minded. For someone who claims to herald the word "choice" you shut your senses off to the arguments of the opposing side. Yes, you are pro-choice, YOUR CHOICE AND NOBODY ELSE'S

<marquee>
"In war there is no substitute for victory." -General Douglas MacArthur "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
<img src=http://members.aol.com/cityhawk80/myhomepage/nydragonssig.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US>
DCPete walked me through how to FINALLY post a sig.

[silera]

Yes, you are pro-choice, YOUR CHOICE AND NOBODY ELSE'S

That's exactly it.

When a woman has a child, SHE is the only one that has to deal with the consequences.

Not you.

You don't have to gain 60 lbs, put your life at risk during labor, suffer through morning sickness, lose sleep for three months, wake up every day at 7 am for 18 years to make sure your child is dressed and fed and taken to school. You don't have to provide a home for that child or an education or clothing. You do not stay up at night with that child when he's sick, or leave work early to attend parent teacher conferences.

Your opinion on what that woman does with the rest of her life is moot, because you have nothing to do with it.



<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=white>

[angrymissy]

very well said silera.

I pose these questions to anti-choicers once again.

Do you support the crimilization of abortion?

What do you think the consequence should be if a woman illegaly would try to obtain an abortion?

Do you believe life begins at conception?

Do you believe in abortion to save the life of the mother, or in the case where a fetus is not compatable with life?

Do you believe, that when I was pregnant at 15 years of age, I should have NOT had the option to abort, and should have been FORCED to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term?

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[Bergalad]

According to the statistics, let's see who is most likely having an abortion: <P> She is white, under 25 years of age, unmarried, a Protestant, makes between $30,000 and $59,999 per year, aborts the fetus for 'social reasons', and has the abortion before the 9th week of pregnancy. 43% of all women will have an abortion before age 45. 47% of those who have had one abortion will have another one. <P> Just trying to put more of a face on the whole thing. <P> <P> <P> <P>



This message was edited by Bergalad on 1-13-03 @ 10:51 PM

[angrymissy]

Could you please cite where you got your statistics from? I have stats on my work computer from the Center for Disease Control that disagree with some of those. Mostly the reason for abortion, chances of a second abortion, and income level of women obtaining an aboriton. will post them tomorrow when i get to work

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This message was edited by angrymissy on 1-13-03 @ 10:58 PM

[Bergalad]

Could you please cite where you got your statistics from?


Searched for abortion statistics and came up with this site
http://www.abortionno.org/fastfacts.html
I think it is anti-abortion (anti-choice for those so inclined), but they say:
The following is a list of useful facts regarding abortion and abortifacients. All abortion numbers are derived from pro-abortion sources courtesy of The Alan Guttmacher Institute and Planned Parenthood's Family Planning Perspectives

so don't know if it's all bs or not. I am not endorsing the site or what they believe, just looking for stats.

[HordeKing1]

Is you couldn't figure it out, the analogy to anti-choice zealots and nazis, is that people hid pretended the situation didn't exist until too late.

The analogy ends there. The Nazis murdered 6 million Jews and millions of others. Abortion harms no one. ABORTIONS SAVES WOMEN from an unwanted pregnancy, and an unwanted child. It provides her with opportunity to get an education and to advance in life. A fetus isn't life, it's just a clump of tissue. Get over it.

The anti-abortionists are very much anti-life - the life of the woman, the only life in being. They'd rather see a living woman suffer than allow her the choice of removing what is only at best a potential for life.






<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[IrishAlkey]

This is the anti-horny thread.

<center><IMG SRC="http://members.hostedscripts.com/randomimage.cgi?user=IrishAlkey"></center>
<marquee><font color=red size=4>I'M KIDDING!</font></marquee>

[Captain Rooster]

http://www.rockforlife.org/#



<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/roosterclawsanime.gif>

[El Mudo]

I am pro-life myself..i dont really believe in taking a life under any circumstances except for the death penatly and self denfense. heck i always said if i joined the service id have to be a medic cause i wouldnt want to kill people.

HK do you believe in the death penalty? cause if you dont, then you are coming off as sort of a hypocrite when you favor the death of one person and not of a criminal.
I believe Missy made the comment earlier of a fetus being a "parasite" because it is entirely dependent on its mothers body. Well, what about people on life support that cant live without a respirator? should we kill them?

If there's one thing i hate its activist judges...they are there to interpret the law...not make new ones. I hate Roe V. Wade but its the law of the land until someone finds good legal reason to overturn it.

Bottom line HK....neither you nor anyone else is gonna change the way i think on this issue..im sticking to my guns for what i feel is right..

And if you dont want children DONT HAVE SEX!!

or at least use some protection!!

Oakland Raiders: 12-5
Next: AFC Title game vs. Tennessee!!
Rich Gannon: Your 2002 NFL MVP!!
Bill Callahan for Coach of the Year!!
El queso es viejo y moldio. ¨D¢nde est* el cuarto de ba¤o?

[Bergalad]

A fetus isn't life, it's just a clump of tissue. Get over it. HK, you think I am taking a side here and that's not true. Still if it's just a clump of tissue, how come if I punch a pregnant woman in the stomach I get charged with Murder 1? It CAN'T not be a life but also be a life, so what the hell? Answer that one please. Oh, and use another clever analogy like the white man killing the Indians or something. You're great at 'em! <P>

[TheMojoPin]

"Science" cannot conclusively determine when human conciousness begins to form. They can determine when life, in its strictest technical sense, begins, and when the brain begins it's more common, basic functions. But as to when a human becomes "human", nobody can yet say.

A "pro-choicer" says they know. They're wrong.

A "pro-lifer" will say THEY know. They're also wrong.

The only concrete thing here is that under U.S. law, across the country, abortion is currently legal. Until that is changed (And it won't be, because too much of the public simply will not stand for it. You can't "sneak" in that kind of legislative and judical action), all the bickering here is moot.

Go home, suck it up, and decide what's best for you and yours. Don't want an abortion? Don't get one. Don't want your partner to get one? Make your opinion known, but don't have the audacity to try and decide what they can and can't do with their body. You want an abortion? Go right ahead, but you damned better be aware of the unpredictable and varied emotional and physical impacts. Depending on the person (And each and every case is different...hence why trying to make this issue black & white is the epitome of absuridty), the consequences can far outweigh any of those that could be associated with childbirth, and vice versa.

Let us now have tea, and be friends again.

<img src=http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/philex/mjpin1.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."



This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 1-14-03 @ 12:38 AM

[Dewey]

Unwanted children don't get enough love, are more prone to child abuse, neglect and malnourishment. They then don't do well in school and become truants and juvenile delinquents.


Agreed. So let's kill 'em. And while we're at it, let's kill all the juvenile delinquents, impoverished black males (more likely to commit crimes), and anyone else for whom we judge "life is not worth living".

This is insanity. The argument that we can judge whether or not a life is worth living, before it even begins, has absolutely no merit. It puts you on a slippery slope toward Nazi-ism, however you choose to define the "master race".

<IMG SRC="http://www.agw-werbeartikel.de/images/easy-rider.jpg"><br>"Still searching for America."

This message was edited by Dewey on 1-14-03 @ 12:59 AM

[Dewey]

A "pro-lifer" will say THEY know.


Mojo, you raise an interesting point here, but I disagree. I'm pro-life and I DON'T know. What I do believe is that "The best argument against abortion is that there might be a soul in there." (Donald Gilroy, Jr.)

<IMG SRC="http://www.agw-werbeartikel.de/images/easy-rider.jpg"><br>"Still searching for America."

[IrishAlkey]

If men were the one's who gave birth, this wouldn't be a discussion... ever.

You can bank on that.

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[Dewey]

Your statement is ludicrous. Slavery and abortion can not be equated


I think the parallel is much stronger than you suggest. For the slave-owner, the abolitionist was interfering with his "property". He owned this non-person, this slave, and noone had the right to tell him what to do with his property. Thus the slave-owner is akin to the "pro-choice" position: "Hey, I'm not telling you to own slaves. If you don't like slavery, don't own a slave. But don't interfere with my rights."

The abolitionist, on the other hand, saw slavery as wrong. It was not sufficient simply to say "I'll do my thing regarding slavery, and you do yours." Slavery was a moral wrong that needed to be abolished.

The pro-abortion position, to be consistent, HAS to argue that abortion is morally neutral, like choosing whether to have peas or carrots at dinner. The act of abortion HAS to be simply the scraping away of a clump of cells. Society would therefore have absolutely no right to punish someone who, in the course of an assault, causes a pregnant woman to miscarry, over that of simple assault. Nor does the "pro-choice" position have ANY right to criticize a woman who engages in heavy drug use, alcohol abuse, etc., throughout pregnancy, and causes the baby to be born deformed. After all, it is HER body, and noone has the right to tell her what to do with it.

True?
<IMG SRC="http://www.agw-werbeartikel.de/images/easy-rider.jpg"><br>"Still searching for America."





This message was edited by Dewey on 1-14-03 @ 1:21 AM

[IrishAlkey]

Just one more thing before I resume my regular role around here...

If people would pay attention to their own lives, their own shit, their own fuck-ups and their own fucking problems, this world would be much less fucking annoying than it currently is.

Stay out of other people's shit.

Pretentious jackasses.

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[silera]

No Dewey. Your response to my post was so off mark and twisted to suit your own agenda I won't even quote it.

Again, read the post and take a step back and understand it.

My point is that there are other issues directly affected by the birth of unwanted children that the goverment currently does not address adequately.

If you do not believe abortion is an option you could live with morally, then it is not the right choice for you or your partner.

However, you have no right to decide what Jane Doe does in the same situation, since you don't pay her rent or wipe her ass when she takes a shit.


<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=white>

[Dewey]

If men were the one's who gave birth, this wouldn't be a discussion... ever.


If this were so, ALL women would be in favor of abortion, and that is not the case, not by a long shot.

<IMG SRC="http://www.agw-werbeartikel.de/images/easy-rider.jpg"><br>"Still searching for America."

[Dewey]

My point is that there are other issues directly affected by the birth of unwanted children that the goverment currently does not address adequately.


I completely agree with you here, Silera. I am totally in favor of equal opportunity, a good education for every child, and so on. And I'll even put my money where my mouth is. You agree to eliminate abortion, and I'd be willing to let the government take 60% of my earnings in taxes, to make sure EVERY unwanted child is placed in a loving home, and that EVERY child receives a good education and health care. I want EVERY child to get a fair shot at the kind of life they were meant to live.

Deal?





<IMG SRC="http://www.agw-werbeartikel.de/images/easy-rider.jpg"><br>"Still searching for America."

[TheMojoPin]

I'd be willing to let the government take 60% of my earnings in taxes, to make sure EVERY unwanted child is placed in a loving home, and that EVERY child receives a good education and health care. I want EVERY child to get a fair shot at the kind of life they were meant to live.

Man, I said this same thing before, but without the abortion caveat...just because I wanted fair education and health care for all. You'd have think I stood up and piddled on a bunch of nuns by the response I got...

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[TooCute]

The pro-abortion
position, to be consistent,
HAS to argue that abortion
is morally neutral, like
choosing whether to have
peas or carrots at dinner.
The act of abortion HAS to
be simply the scraping
away of a clump of
cells.

Absolutely. I am glad that
you finally see what at least
I have been saying all
along. Indeed I DO believe
that it is just a clump of
cells, at least until it is able
to survive outside of the
womb alone. And even
afterward, I am in favor of
allowing abortion in certain
instances. Just make sure
you chance pro-abortion to
pro-choice, okay? Because
that I would allow another
woman to suck a few cells
out of her uterus does not
mean that I myself would
choose to do so. Nor does
it mean that I wouldn't.

Society would
therefore have absolutely
no right to punish someone
who, in the course of an
assault, causes a pregnant
woman to miscarry, over
that of simple
assault.

This is not something I
know much about. But my
initial reaction is to say that
no, it should not. But on the
other hand, some provision
must be made for the fact
that the assault or murder
caused the woman not to
be able to bring a life that
she intended to bring into
the world into the world.
Beats me what you'd call it
or on what grounds you
could really even create it.


Nor does the "pro-choice"


Why is "pro-choice" in
quotations? I notice you
didn't put "pro-abortion" in
quotations earlier. Do you
suggest that "pro-choice" in
fact means "pro-abortion"?

position have ANY
right to criticize a woman
who engages in heavy drug
use, alcohol abuse, etc.,
throughout pregnancy, and
causes the baby to be born
deformed. After all, it is HER
body, and noone has the
right to tell her what to do
with it.

But the difference is in that
in this case, such actions
will have a lasting effect on
a person that will be born
and will have to live a life
with whatever deformities it
was caused.

Suctioning out a few cells is
not equatable to
intentionally causing harm
to something that you
intend to bring into the
world as a new life.

Do you honestly believe that
the two scenarios are
comparable? Or do you
merely bring them up for the
sake of argument?

Honestly? If a woman's
going to drink and do drugs
and go bathe in
thalydamide or do whatever
she is doing that is going to
have negative effects on her
child I HOPE she has the
brains to have an abortion,
cause that kid sure isn't
going to have a good life.


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ADF makes great sigpics!

[IrishAlkey]

If this were so, ALL women would be in favor of abortion, and that is not the case, not by a long shot.


Face reality.

Speculation is for people who use their fingers and toes to count to twenty.

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<marquee><font color=red size=4>I'M KIDDING!</font></marquee>

[Dewey]

If men were the one's who gave birth, this wouldn't be a discussion... ever.


Speculation is for people who use their fingers and toes to count to twenty.


You were the one who began with the hypothetical. Start counting.


<IMG SRC="http://www.agw-werbeartikel.de/images/easy-rider.jpg"><br>"Still searching for America."

This message was edited by Dewey on 1-14-03 @ 8:14 AM

[angrymissy]

Women are going to look for options to end an unwanted pregnancy NO MATTER WHAT. Be it drugs, coathangers, etc. A man could never understand the despair of being pregnant, and not wanting to be.

I pose the questions I've asked AGAIN, since no anti-choicer has answered them yet.

Do you support the crimilization of abortion?

What do you think the consequence should be if a woman would then illegaly try to obtain an abortion?

Do you believe life begins at conception?

Do you believe in abortion to save the life of the mother, or in the case where a fetus is not compatable with life?

Do you believe, that a girl pregnant at 15 years of age, should have NOT had the option to abort, and should be FORCED to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term?

People don't like to answer these kind of questions... but the fact is, if you want to argue abortion, you should be prepared to answer them. It seems like a lot of men like to say, "Well, its her fault for spreading her legs and getting pregnant". Which is basically using pregnancy as a way of punishing a woman for having sex. It's just plain wrong that a man would have any say in what a woman does with her body.

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[angrymissy]

I just want to throw out a very good link from the Journal of American Medicine, that shows all sorts of abortion statistics, as well as pregnancy statistics. This is the only totally unbiased link I have ever found. I debate this topic on other boards on the web. One of the big problems is, you get biased information from each side. One example is the anti-choice side will freely say that abortion is related to breast cancer, when that has been disproven by the American Cancer Society and the American Medical Assoication. Anyway, the link below has excellent information.

<a href="http://www.ama-assn.org/special/contra/treatmnt/guide/mmwr0897/abort/abort3.htm">abortion stats</a>

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[luvmedoo]

A fetus isn't life, it's just a clump of tissue. Get over it.



HK, Abortion is murder regardless at what stage of development the fetus is in.
When the heart starts to beat it is considered ALIVE. It is not just a clump of tissue. It is a developing baby. A DEVELOPING HUMAN BEING THAT DESERVES LIFE JUST LIKE YOU AND I, AND YOUR CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!

People who do not want children need to use protection! You need to raise a voice under that concern instead of bashing Bush for wanting to stop senseless abortions.

I know a girl who just had an abortion, and now is pregnant again! She has 3 other children already. People who commit abortions as a way to make to their life easier are the lowest of low. If they don't want to have children, they shouldn't spread their legs!



Can't buy me love....

[Captain Rooster]

A fetus isn't life, it's just a clump of tissue. Get over it.


What is that clump of tissue becoming? A fingernail? A zit? A superfluous nipple (Krusty the Clown)?

No, that clump of cells is the beginning of human life. Why is that so hard for pro abortion people to recognize? We on this board were all at the initial stages of life and were born soon after.

Just because a baby can't be seen, held, and cuddled bacause it is still developing does not mean that it should not be loved and cared for.

There are thousands of women who want a child born of an American woman to adopt. I know a woman who adopted three Korean children because there were no white children available to adopt. If a woman does not want to keep the child, she should put the baby up fpr adoption.

Take some fucking reponsibility for your actions! If you have sex, which by definition is the process in which children are produced, take the result of your decision. Don't make another mistake by killing the unborn child.

There is a lot of guilt that comes with abortion. My good friend had TWO abortion while in college and she is a wreck now, as a result. Another girl I know was pregnant at seventeen. She kept her child and could not give her away once she held that beautiful baby girl in her arms.

Don't trivialize life--we do it all to often in this world. Innocence and life should be celebrated, not thrown down the drain and considered a mere "parasite" or any old "clump of cells." Those definitions of a child are disturbing and hurtful to your already flawed argument.

Celebrate life, protect life, cherish life.



<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/roosterclawsanime.gif>



This message was edited by LTRooster on 1-14-03 @ 10:54 AM

[angrymissy]

If they don't want to have children, they shouldn't spread their legs!

Oh thats excellent. Let's PUNISH women by making them gestate and birth to a child they DON'T WANT. I mean, because the man didn't have ANYTHING to do with her getting pregnant.

If women should "deal with it" becuase they "spread their legs", then what do you propose rape and incest victims do? Should they have the right to abortion? Should they have to give birth to a baby conceived out of violence?

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[Captain Rooster]

what do you propose rape and incest victims do?


AMB, you know that I think you are the cat's PJs, but how many times does this happen? I know it does happen and the emotional trauma is horrible, but when compared with the amount of abortions for convenience are analyzed the attack pregnencies are few.

By the way, there was a little girl who was raped and became pregnant twice in 6 months last year. PLANNED PARENTHOOD did not question if she was being attacked and abused--rather, they let this girl remain in the horrible situation and become pregnant again. This organization should be reprimanded and the management at the clinic should be fired and brought up on criminal charges.

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/roosterclawsanime.gif>

[angrymissy]

There is a lot of guilt that comes with abortion. My good friend had TWO abortion while in college and she is a wreck now, as a result.

I have no guilt over any of my abortions. Abortion is a life decision, like many other life decisions, such as divorce or death in the family, there can be issues afterwards. A study performed by the American Medical Assocation showed no correlation between abortion and long-term related depression.

I also know plenty of women who have aborted and felt nothing except relief.

I do not belive it is a "child" until it can survive independent of me.

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[luvmedoo]

LTRooster- well said!!! Love ya man! You summed up exactly how I feel.

I couldn't believe HK said that a fetus was just a clump of tissue and to get over it.
To me that shows just what an ignorant heartless man he is.


Can't buy me love....

[luvmedoo]

Angry missy? you said "abortions" as in plural. SO i take it you have had more than one?
How irresponsible!

Like i said, if you didn't want these babies, you shouldn't spread your legs to get that way.

Can't buy me love....

[Captain Rooster]

AMB, I was not trying to attack you in any way. Don't think that. I know that the issue will not be solved on RonFez.net.

I just know how my friend reacted. She has horrible issues with her decisions to have abortions. She cried often and talked about how she felt bad.

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/roosterclawsanime.gif>

[angrymissy]

Angry missy? you said "abortions" as in plural. SO i take it you have had more than one?
How irresponsible!

Like i said, if you didn't want these babies, you shouldn't spread your legs to get that way.

First of all, you don't know my situation. I'm actually one of the most responsible people I know. Second of all, I couldn't give a flying fuck what you think, I'm not ashamed of my abortions, which is why I feel free to discuss them.

AMB, I was not trying to attack you in any way. Don't think that. I know that the issue will not be solved on RonFez.net.

Don't worry Rooster, I didn't see it as an attack, I just wanted to add my side to the debate :) I think a nice debate once in while on ronfez.net is interesting.

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This message was edited by angrymissy on 1-14-03 @ 11:17 AM

[TooCute]

I don't think that any
pro-choicer is advocating
abortion as a means of
birth control. Of course a
woman AND a man should
be careful. However, to say
"take responsibility" and
have the baby is
irresponsible. Obviously it
is the people who aren't
able to "take responsibility"
who are getting pregnant,
and the people who are
actively trying NOT to get
pregnant and yet have an
accident who get pregnant
and then want abortions.
Yes, those are the people I
think should be having
children. Nobody who is
ready to have a child and is
trying to have a child is
going out and having an
abortion. To suggest that
the world be celibate is
stupid. It isn't going to
happen, so don't give me
any "if you don't want a baby
then don't have sex" lines. If
you don't want a baby, then
YOU don't have sex. If I don't
want a baby, then I'm going
to use birth control. and if
that fails, and I get
pregnant, and I'm not ready
to give up my life and my
future ability to give a child I
actually want a good home,
and my partner agrees,
then I'm going to have an
abortion. That is the
responsible decision.

I believe that it IS just a
clump of cells until it can
live outside the body alone.
Perhaps it is because I am
a scientist, and don't want
or need to believe in things
like souls and god and
heaven and hell. Just
because something will
potentially become a life
does not mean that it is a
life. TO ME. I couldn't care
less if it is to you. Is it?
Great. You can keep your
baby, okay?


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ADF makes great sigpics!

[TheMojoPin]

Like I said, abortions are not for everyone. There are significant psychological and physical factors that come into play differently IN EACH CASE. You simply cannot sum this up into "abortions for none/all" terms.

And Luvmedoo, if you think the people who keep having abortions are so "iresponsible" and "lowest of the low", do you really want them to keep having children? That hardly sounds like the right environment for a child to be raised, much less three. Step up, if you're going to stand by your declarations. Call social services. Fight to have those children put into foster care, if their mother really is that awful a person. Do SOMETHING. Sitting back and just wagging your finger and shaking your head is the most useless, cowardly thing you can do.

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[IrishAlkey]

You were the one who began with the hypothetical. Start counting.


I knew you'd say that.

Thanks for proving your reading comprehension skills are subpar.

Think about it.

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[Thebazile78]

If they don't want to have children, they shouldn't spread their legs!

This is going to come out all wrong and I seriously wanted to remain intelligent but:

WHY PLACE ALL THE BLAME ON A WOMAN? This is precisely the point we're trying NOT to make.

Use protection, sure. But part of what makes this issue so scary as it was presented in the editorial in the Times is the lessening of instruction in the existence of prophylactics (condoms, diaphragms, IUD's, etc.) in both school health programs and on government health websites.

And why is it always the woman's duty to "use protection"? Can't a guy do that too? Can't a guy remember to buy the box of Trojans? Why is that so difficult? Every drug store within a 2-block radius of my apartment sells one or another brand (sometimes 2 or 3) and I have no shame in buying a box or two. I can even get them cheaper (and fresher) at the student pharmacy at the local college. But does this mean my partner is off the hook when we run out of the ones I've bought? HELL NO!

I am continually reminded that "it takes two to tango". Well, it takes 2 to have sex. If it were just 1, it'd be masturbation.

Why do we have to be so judgemental? Why can't we discuss this like rational adults? I don't know. This is a freakin' Molotov cocktail and it's terribly unfortunate that we can't agree to look at the facts and opinions some of us (TooCute, Missy, HK, Mojo, Heckler, et al) have taken the time to RESEARCH and POST so we can stand on the same ground and have a rational debate.



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<br>"If human beings stopped exercising their lips, their brains would start working" - Ford Prefect

This message was edited by Thebazile78 on 1-14-03 @ 3:29 PM

[Yerdaddy]

From Human Rights Watch's annual report:
Human Rights Watch work in 2002 included a study of federally funded sex education programs that threatened adolescent health by censoring basic information about how to prevent HIV/AIDS and by failing to present accurate information on the efficacy of condoms to prevent HIV/AIDS.

The programs limited high school students' access to experts on HIV/AIDS and suggested condoms do not work as a means of HIV/AIDS protection, despite the broad scientific consensus that condoms, when used correctly, in fact are highly effective in preventing the transmission of HIV. In Texas, which received a substantial share of federal abstinence-only funds, one abstinence-only program sponsored a "Truth for Youth" advertisement campaign that suggested that parents who advise their children to use condoms may be threatening their children's lives. By portraying sex outside of heterosexual marriage as psychologically and physically harmful, these programs also discriminated against gay and lesbian youth.

Since 1997, Congress had spent more than $350 million on "abstinence-only" programs. In 2002, the Bush administration lobbied for a 33 percent increase in funding for such programs, even though federal public health agencies had repeatedly emphasized the importance of providing comprehensive information to youth about how to protect themselves from HIV infection, including information about condom use.

<img src="http://yerdaddy.homestead.com/files/pics/sigyalta.jpg" >
It was a joke goddammit!

[Thebazile78]

"Human Rights Watch work in 2002 included a study of federally funded sex education programs that threatened adolescent health by censoring basic information about how to prevent HIV/AIDS and by failing to present accurate information on the efficacy of condoms to prevent HIV/AIDS. "

THANK YOU!

That's part of what was said in the Times on Sunday.

The article is probably still free and still online (OK, so you have to sign up to read it, but you had to sign up to post here, didn't you?) for anyone who wants to see how this all got started.

But anyway, they did an episode of 90210 on this that explored many of these same issues.

My pop-culture references are starting to sicken me. But it seems to be the only way to connect with some of you to get you to slow down and think before you shoot your mouths off.





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<br>"If human beings stopped exercising their lips, their brains would start working" - Ford Prefect

[luvmedoo]

I am pregnant at the moment, 7 months, and I couldn't even think of having an abortion. Feeling it kick and move inside me is the greatest feeling in the world. Seeing it on the screen when I have an ultrasound and watch it suck its thumb is just memorizing that there is life inside of me. I love this child, and I haven't got to hold it yet, but I know its alive inside of me. A miraculous creation that I had the opportunity to take part in. I don't understand these women who keep getting pregnant, and keep having abortions.

You are irresponsible Angry Missy! Because the first time could have been a mistake, but the second , and so forth shows that you are very irresponsible. There are many women out in the world who want children and can't have them, but you throw them away like they are garbage.

Your right, I don't understand your circumstance, but like I said... once might have been a mistake, but the others shows your lack of responsibilty on using protection to keep from getting pregnant. Its not only the womans responsibilty to use protection but the mans too, and its up to us alot of the times to make sure there is some sort of protection. It doesn't take 2 minutes to put a rubber on, or stop at your local free clinic and pick up birth control. That shows laziness on your part!



Can't buy me love....

[Coco]

A study performed by the American Medical Assocation showed no correlation between abortion and long-term related depression.

I think you raised this point once before. The study, in my opinion, was flawed because it only tracked women, I believe, only 2 years after their abortion. (Many of these women were only in their teens).

I truly believe that someone between the ages of 13-21 does not have the full life experience capacity to fully make such a life-changing decision as abortion. When they can show me studies of depression on girls who had abortions 10-15 years later, then I would be interested. An example of this point, is when guys at 18 would go over into war "gung ho" on killing the enemy, only to be "horrified" and psychologically scarred about thinking of what they did 15-20 years later.

And, I take offense to the constant "pro-life people are terrible" phrase. I, myself, believe in the human rights of the unborn. I also cherish the psychological welfare of women too.

______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive



This message was edited by Coco on 1-14-03 @ 3:45 PM

[FUNKMAN]

sheepy made me do it...



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[silera]

I truly believe that someone between the ages of 13-21 does not have the full life experience capacity to fully make such a life-changing decision as abortion.

So having the child is the option? They can't make a decision but they can take on the responsibility of bearing a child?

When I was pregnant with my first child, there was this girl who's pregnancy coincided with mine. We had almost all our appointments together. She got pregnant when she was 12. She had never gotten her first period. This girl didnt even have boobs until her second trimester. She had no idea she was pregnant until it was too late to have an abortion.

Her mother abandoned her. Her boyfriend abandoned her. Her body hadn't even fully developed, and this little girl almost died while in labor. She had to have a ceasarean and almost bled out.

My point. Maybe if her parents had cared about her she wouldn't have tried to grow up so quickly. Maybe if schools did a better job of teaching sexual education, she wouldn't have been placed in that predicament.

Luvmedoo, I'm happy you're happy about your pregnancy. Coco, I agree with you that life is worth preserving.

I just remember the sadness in that little girls face everytime I saw her. The fear and loneliness. No one was there to help her. Maybe she turned out to be a great mother and her child is in the best care possible, but I still wonder what ever happened to her life, her dreams, and her future.

Let's not forget that a child isn't independant of its parent as soon as it's born. It's not nine months, it is a life time.



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<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
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[angrymissy]

There are many women out in the world who want children and can't have them, but you throw them away like they are garbage.

No, I do not. First of all, my abortions were performed before 10 weeks. So that was not a CHILD it was an embryo. A CHILD can survive outside of the womb. I don't believe it as being a child, so your personal commentary means nothing to me. Should I be FORCED to gestate because there are some women who can't have children? I feel for them, but they don't have a right to use my body.

Second of all, I was heavily into drugs while pregnant. Do you know of any women willing to take in a special needs, possibly disabled child? How many children have you adopted? Are you a foster mother? Do you know that the waiting lists for adoption are for healthy white babies? That special needs babies are basically doomed to a life in the foster system?

You should really enter this debate with facts based on research, not opinions based on emotion.

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This message was edited by angrymissy on 1-14-03 @ 4:33 PM

[angrymissy]

I truly believe that someone between the ages of 13-21 does not have the full life experience capacity to fully make such a life-changing decision as abortion.

I was living on my own, paying the bills for the household, and taking care of my younger brother and sister at age 16. Are you saying that that isn't enough life experience to be making a decision about what goes on in MY body?

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This message was edited by angrymissy on 1-14-03 @ 4:29 PM

[IrishAlkey]

not opinions based on emotion.

Or ulterior motives...

I still say everybody needs to mind their own business.

I'm just a big pussy like Horde King.

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[angrymissy]

I still say everybody needs to mind their own business.

Exactly. What someone does with their own body is no one else business.

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[silera]

It doesn't take 2 minutes to put a rubber on, or stop at your local free clinic and pick up birth control.

You're right. It takes me 4 hours to get through one fucking OB-GYN appointment. I then have to pay $45 out of pocket each for the pills because oddly, my insurance will pay for an abortion but doesn't cover birth control pills.



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<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
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[angrymissy]

my insurance will pay for an abortion but doesn't cover birth control pills.

Same Here, doesn't make any sense to me.

And just trying to SCHEDULE a routine OBGYN appointment is a fucking nightmare.

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[Coco]

See, Heckler, here is part of the HordeKing's issue: He does not realize that he himself is jamming down my throat his own left-wing-murdering-children-philosophies.

Kudos!

Again, I take offense to the constant "pro-life people are terrible" phrase. I, myself, believe in the human rights of the unborn. I also cherish the psychological welfare of women too.

______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive



This message was edited by Coco on 1-14-03 @ 5:14 PM

[The Blowhard]

In my opinion, one of the toughest choices a woman has to make is whether or not to have an abortion. I resent the fact that the Government or anyone else can intrude on her or anyone elses life.
I support a womans right to choose. I also support responsible gun ownership, legalization of marijuana, gay marriage(let them be miserable too!), legalized gambling and prostitution. Oh yeah, fuck helmet and seatbelt laws too!
Freedom baby!

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[Thebazile78]

Do you know of any women willing to take in a special needs, possibly disabled child? How many children have you adopted? Are you a foster mother? Do you know that the waiting lists for adoption are for healthy white babies? That special needs babies are basically doomed to a life in the foster system?

Exactly the point I was trying to make (and was soundly ignored on) two pages back.

Bravo Missy!



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[NewYorkDragons80]

Do you support the crimilization of abortion?
If something which I, or the government, perceive to be a life is infringed upon, then the proper action needs to be taken. If that is charging them with manslaughter, murder, etc. then so be it.

What do you think the consequence should be if a woman would then illegaly try to obtain an abortion?
Well, if she tries to obtain it, but fails, I suppose she would be charged with attempted murder if the government decides that the life of a human being was put in jeopardy. Is that what you were asking?

Do you believe life begins at conception?
I believe life begins when the egg has been fertilized.

Do you believe in abortion to save the life of the mother, or in the case where a fetus is not compatable with life?
This is a rare situation, but it does occur. In this case, the woman's life has been put in danger and it is no longer a question of financial stability, or convenience, but rather her own well-being. In this case the woman is fighting for her own life and taking the life of the embryo is self-defense.

Do you believe, that a girl pregnant at 15 years of age, should have NOT had the option to abort, and should be FORCED to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term?
Yes. Abortion is not a option any more than any other conventional, but socially unacceptable, form of murder.

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[Dewey]

some provision
must be made for the fact
that the assault or murder
caused the woman not to
be able to bring a life that she intended to bring into the world into the world.


Some interesting admissions here. You use the term "a life", not "a clump of cells", which would have been more consistent. Then you use the phrase "she intended" as if it is the woman's intentions that turn a clump of cells into a life. Surely that is not the case. Which is it, a clump of cells, or a life? If you say the former, then the assailant who causes the woman to miscarry is no more culpable than if he had cut off a lock of her hair. And somehow, I don't think you really believe that.

<IMG SRC="http://www.agw-werbeartikel.de/images/easy-rider.jpg"><br>"Still searching for America."

This message was edited by Dewey on 1-14-03 @ 11:09 PM

[Dewey]

Thanks for proving your reading comprehension skills are subpar.

Don't make me whip out my intellectual Johnson here, Alkey. It's kinda long, and it might scare you.

<IMG SRC="http://www.agw-werbeartikel.de/images/easy-rider.jpg"><br>"Still searching for America."

[Dewey]

Suctioning out a few cells is
not equatable to
intentionally causing harm
to something that you
intend to bring into the
world as a new life.

Do you honestly believe that
the two scenarios are
comparable? Or do you
merely bring them up for the
sake of argument?


The two scenarios are not only comparable, they are of a piece. In the one case, the woman is destroying a clump of cells (as you put it) that would otherwise become a life viable outside the womb.

In the other case, she is getting the same clump of cells drunk, or high, or whatever. How can you dispute her right to do so, if what she is doing is merely exposing a clump of cells, which are part of her body, to whatever toxic substances she chooses to introduce into it?



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This message was edited by Dewey on 1-14-03 @ 11:24 PM

[Dewey]

I pose the questions I've asked AGAIN, since no anti-choicer has answered them yet.

Do you support the crimilization of abortion?

What do you think the consequence should be if a woman would then illegaly try to obtain an abortion?

Do you believe life begins at conception?

Do you believe in abortion to save the life of the mother, or in the case where a fetus is not compatable with life?

Do you believe, that a girl pregnant at 15 years of age, should have NOT had the option to abort, and should be FORCED to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term?


I actually wrote a long response to these questions earlier, and the server logged me out before I was able to post it. So I got frustrated and quit. I'll try again:

Yes. I support the criminalization of abortion, except in cases where the life of the mother is in danger.

I would like the prosecutorial focus to be not on the women who seek abortions, but on those who perform them. Perhaps, on the first offense, revocation of one's license to practice medicine. After that, jail time.

I'd like all children, boys and girls, to be educated and counseled on alternatives to abortion. This would include fully funded "retreats" where young girls who have made a mistake can continue their education while bringing a baby to term and placing it up for adoption. Such young women are not to be villified; in my opinion, their unselfishness makes them heroic.

I believe life MIGHT begin at conception. And that is sufficient reason to end the practice of abortion.

Yes, I do believe a girl at age 15 who becomes pregnant should not have the option to abort. I am terribly sorry that this touches you in a personal way. I can only imagine the fear you must have felt in that situation. But I do believe you made a tragic (but not irredeemable) mistake. Part of the blame surely rests with society, which does not provide the proper support for young girls "in trouble", such as counseling, compassion, financial and emotional assistance, and so on. Instead you have big-business abortion mills like Planned Parenthood (and it IS a BIG business) encouraging abortion, saying it's no big deal, and you'll "ruin your life" if you have a baby so young.

Would it ruin a young girl's life to take a few months hiatus, bear a child, knowing that the child will be given a happy home and every opportunity? If you are like me, you've wasted more time than that watching television. Again, I repeat, the unselfishness of such actions are heroic. No man can match them.

If this reads as my standing in judgment of you, I am sorry. I have far too many foibles, and worse, to pass such judgment. You asked some questions, and I attempted to answer them. That's all.



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This message was edited by Dewey on 1-15-03 @ 12:00 AM

[HordeKing1]

Interesting opinions but horrific in their vehemence and moralization.

I've said this at least a dozen times, but apparantly it doesn't penetrate. If you don't believe in abortions don't have one. (Should you or your kid be raped your opinion may change.) It is immoral and just plain wrong to tell anyone else what they should do.

I've NEVER told anyone who didn't want an abortion to have one. That would be horrible. It's worse however, to tell a person who wants to have an abortion not to. Anit-abortion nuts don't care about life, they care about imposing their views on others.

I submit that no one can say they give a rat's ass about the sanctity of life, and care so little about the life of the woman they wish to see carry and care for this lump of cells for 18 plus years.

AMB - My respect for you grows with your every post in the face of such ignorant, unfeeling, uncaring and sometimes downright vehement opposition.

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[TheMojoPin]

Why do people against abortion talk like the people who DO get abortions are just getting them left and right, without a care in the world, like it was a trip to the mall? I defy you to find ONE woman...just ONE...who didn't find herself having to make a serious decision that she dwelled and went over again and again before she actually went through with it. ALL women who consider it go through this decision process. Hence why many women also choose NOT to.

It just seems like a lot of the anti-abortion folks think that those that do get abortions simply do so without thinking or caring. ANY time you go in for any kind of significant medical procedure it's going to weigh heavily on you. This is no different.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 1-15-03 @ 4:39 PM

[A.J.]

Another turn in the "War Against Women": Bush declares "National Sancity of Human Life Day".

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030115/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_abortion_3

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[Coco]

I still say everybody needs to mind their own business.


Are you saying that as an American I have NO say as to where my hard earned tax dollars are being spent? I think it is the government (and Planned Parenthood) who is imposing THEIR will on me and what I pay my taxes for.

Anit-abortion nuts don't care about life, they care about imposing their views on others.


Horde King sometimes you scare me. Are you saying that all people who oppose abortions are nuts?

Also, that they "don't care about life, they just care about imposing their views on others"?

Who are you speaking for here? Do you know the millions of others who just care about the rights of the unborn?

______________________

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This message was edited by Coco on 1-15-03 @ 2:49 PM

[TheMojoPin]

Are you saying that as an American I have NO say as to where my hard earned tax dollars are being spent?

Hey, don't act like you're so special here. If most knew how much of their taxes were being spent, they wouldn't be too happy. I don't like my money going to making our umpteenth bajillion nuclear missile...but can I honestly control that? Of course not...

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[The Blowhard]

There seems to be two different issues here. Should abortion remain legal AND should the goverment pay for them.
I say yes and no.

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THAT'S Amore!

[IrishAlkey]

Are you saying that as an American I have NO say as to where my hard earned tax dollars are being spent? I think it is the government (and Planned Parenthood) who is imposing THEIR will on me and what I pay my taxes for.


That's fucking weak.

You've got too much free time on your hands.

Take up another cause.

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[Recyclerz]

I don't like my money going to making our umpteenth bajillion nuclear missile... <P>
Ah, but would you change your mind if they let you push the big red button? <P>
<P>

You're only young once, but you can be immature forever.

[NewYorkDragons80]

I've said this at least a dozen times, but apparantly it doesn't penetrate. If you don't believe in abortions don't have one. (Should you or your kid be raped your opinion may change.) It is immoral and just plain wrong to tell anyone else what they should do.
So if I perceive something to be murder I should turn a blind eye to it?

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[TomPoo]

AMB - My respect for you grows with your every post in the face of such ignorant, unfeeling, uncaring and sometimes downright vehement opposition.

this REALLY pisses me off, cause this insults everyone on this thread.

First of all, I read this thread, and I applaud all the well thought out opinions and ideas - on BOTH sides.

There was only one asshole (Lovemedo) that was out of line.


and to say Missy has had to deal with "ignorant, unfeeling, uncaring and sometimes downright vehement opposition" is just an over-exageration.

I applaud Missy, for standing by her convictions, knowing the facts, and handling herself like an adult. And I am a pro-lifer.

However, I think your thoughts stink. I think they are biased. And I truly believe you don't understand or want to understand the side of a pro-lifer.




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[A.J.]

There seems to be two different issues here. Should abortion remain legal AND should the goverment pay for them.
I say yes and no.

What Heckler said.

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[Coco]

That's fucking weak.

Wanting a say as to where my money goes is weak?



______________________

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This message was edited by Coco on 1-15-03 @ 6:51 PM

[luvmedoo]

Eat poo and die Tom "Poo" I really don't give a shit what you think of me.

Can't buy me love....

[TheMojoPin]

Should abortion remain legal AND should the goverment pay for them.
I say yes and no.

Right on, Chico.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
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[LiquidCourage]

To the original post, GOOD.

[angrymissy]

I don't feel that I'm doing anything admirable, I just like to stand up for what I believe in. I'm not ashamed of anything I belive in or those particular choices I made. Kudos to everyone who could debate this topic like adults without throwing personal insults in :)

I enjoy a good debate, I know no one is going to change anyones mind through it, but it's interesting to see other peoples viewpoints, when presented in an adult manner.

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[Captain Rooster]

Bush running women over with tanks...so ironic...so HOT!



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[SpicyMcHaggis]

To which Mrs. Clinton replied, "I don't even like vaginas"

(For all you South Park fans, jsut thought I ligheten things up a little, and I'm sorry if I offended anyone)

"It's always better when served Spicy..."

[The Jays]

.... doodyheads! .....

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[Yerdaddy]

I farted

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It was a joke goddammit!

[NewYorkDragons80]

I enjoy a good debate, I know no one is going to change anyones mind through it, but it's interesting to see other peoples viewpoints, when presented in an adult manner.
Absolutely. I will never personally judge you or your situation even though I am personally against the practice.

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