The Vietnam War

[Coco]

I was thinking about it today, because I was thinking about my friend's brother who never recovered from having his best friend basically shield him from being shot at on the front lines there. His friend died in front of him.

Do you think it was a justified war? Please, no personal attacks on each other, just debate the subject matter.

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We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive

This message was edited by Coco on 12-20-02 @ 4:03 PM

[BrianTheBailBondsman]

No not at all It started as a police action in 1953 and the last troops left in 1975. In my opinion I beleive that LBJ had finacial interest in buisness ventures that the so all "conflict" made him and others tons of money. It may also, be part of the reason why JFK was wacked besides pissing off the Mob for not keeping his end of a bargin.

I hope all the scum that had a part in sending inocent americans there rot in hell.

I tryed to join the marines in 1975 to go but was 16 so when i was 17 i went but it was evacuated. To this day when I see a vietnam vet i get tears in my eyes. And the hippies that gave hell to the G.I.'s are messed up. It's ok to trash he government but not our boys!

I like to think that being the U.S. swore to never have another Vietnam, is the reason why we now act swiftly and destroy our enimies.

God bless all who served and thier familise.

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[Knowledged_one]

HBO did a rather great job on the role of LBJ in the Vietnam War sorry i cant remember the name of it though. My uncle was in Vietnam and my father said he was never the same once he came back. Not to mention that i work with alot of mechanics (I work on the F-18 fighter/bomber)who served in vietnam, and one told me when he returned home to N.Y. that at a parade in his hometown they were greeted with being called baby killers.
The press had alot to do with the negative feelings that are associated with this war. They would routinely interview soldiers off the line who had just seen their buddiees killed and they would say negative things that would be reported to the masses in America, as well as examining each and every so called account of U.S. troops killing villagers. But as the saying goes "War is Hell" and those guys did what they felt necessary to do to get by and survive. To be honest how many of us wouldnt kill someone if it was life or death i know i would

But the problem with vietnam was that we were really trying to stop the spread of communism from China into other parts of the asian world. Many dont know that while we waged war in Vietnam we were also fighting a war in the congo to stop the spread of communism. It was the CIA's top priority at the time and the CIA was the true failure in this situation. I am currently reading a book about the members of the CIA killed in action while undercover and the CIA was very very inept at handling these types of situations. All in all i just think it was a bad time and bad situation that everyone got mixed up in, but in the end it was necessary because had communism not only spread west from russia into eastern Europe but it could have spread throughout the asian/pacific countries and the cold war could have possibly been a true ww3 had we not intervened

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[TheMojoPin]

I just never understood how people bought into the "Domino Theory", since The Soviets and the Chinese hated each other, and the Vietcong and Chinese hated each other. We just gave them a target they could all hate together.

But overall, I have nothing but respect and sympathy for most of the Vietnam vets. Definitely a case where the war was NOT fought by those that started it.

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[Dewey]

I think it was a just war, an attempt to stave off the spread of Communism. Nowadays we wouldn't get involved in a war without a selfish interest. Then we felt we had a duty to protect those who couldn't protect themselves.

The tragedy lay in the way the war was fought, and in the treatment of the soldiers who put their lives on the line. We have learned, I hope, that when you enter a war you do so with overwhelming force. And for the soldiers, who died in that conflict, and for the ones who came back only to be spat upon, I can only say I am sorry and ashamed at the way you were treated.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

Mojo, would you call Laos and Cambodia dominoes?

I think the movie you are searching for is "Path to War".

The fact of the matter is that South Vietnam and Southeast Asia in general was an important strategic location for the anti-communist front.

When we entered into the conflict as direct participants, Ho Chi Min was in control of North Vietnam. I will not lie to you, he was one of the most brilliant politicians of our time because he managed to walk the tight-rope of Maoism and Stalinism. So by the time of Ho Chi Min's death, it was pretty clear that we were deep in it. While receiving aid from the Soviets, he used Red Chinese tactics. Following his death in 1969, it became obvious that North Vietnam was growing further apart from their Chinese allies, ultimately leading to a border war between the 2 nations in 1979.

The media and those who protested the war did more for North Vietnamese victory than any bullet ever could have. One only need to look to the picture of General Nguyen Ngoc Loan shooting the Vietcong prisoner to see the one-sidedness of the media's perception of the war.

When I form an opinion of who was right I think of the Millions of Cambodians, who made up 33% of that nation's population, killed by Pol Pot. I think of the thousands of Vietnamese forced into labor and reeducation camps. I think of the 50,000 North Vietnamese murdered shortly after the 17th parallel was closed. I think of the 3,000 South Vietnamese murdered in a matter of days and buried in mass graves when Hue was captured by the Communists during the Tet Offensive.

Do I think we were right? You're damn right I do.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[El Mudo]

i believe our involvement started all the way back with Roosevelt, cause he committed us to getting the Japs out of Nam in WW2, then with Truman it was us sending aid and stuff to the damn french, then Eisenhower upped it, and the rest is history.

Speaking of the French, if you wanna read about one of the most mismanaged, worst fought, outright stupid campaigns ever waged, read Bernard Fall's book "Street Without Joy". It is completely indescribable how badly the French messed up over there.

The problem with us in Vietnam is we tried to fight a war with the proverbial "hand tied behind our back". hell, we almost won the damn war just bombing the Ho Chi Minh Trail. Knowing what we know today about what happened after the war, id say it was justified...im just real ashamed of the way we left the ARVN's out to dry..

Another real interesting thing about Nam is the fact that i believe there were a lot of Chinese soldiers serving with the NVA. Col. Hal Moore(the "We Were Soldiers" guy) tried to tell his superiors that he had found a lot of chinese dead among the NVA at Ia Drang, but he was basically told to shut the hell up and never mention that again to anyone..

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[TheMojoPin]

Mojo, would you call Laos and Cambodia dominoes?

No, I'd call them Laos and Cambodia. And why bring up horrible attrocities when we couldn't be damned to even use them as a pretext as to why we were there? How can anyone argue against mass genocide? Exactly, you can't. Yet we went under the shallow, flag-waving, "Communism will DESTROY America" shtick, and tens of thousands of Americans died because of it, and without really even accomplishing what our government was claiming was our reason for even being there.

Oh, there were plenty of justifications for us being involved in the Vietnam conflict. Our government just actually never bothered to declare or recognize them. Mismanaged, misfought, and too many people paid the price. Neither side "won" anything.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 12-21-02 @ 12:25 AM

[Coco]

And for the soldiers, who died in that conflict, and for the ones who came back only to be spat upon, I can only say I am sorry and ashamed at the way you were treated.

Kudos!

______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive

[NewYorkDragons80]

then with Truman it was us sending aid and stuff to the damn french, then Eisenhower upped it, and the rest is history.
I don't know if anybody was around back in the late 1700's, but there's a good argument that without France, there wouldn't be a United States today. We have always been close allies with the French (with the exception of a few run-ins with Napolean.) After World War II, we realized just how tremendous a backstabbing liar Stalin was and how disastrous it would be to allow a man trained by him to rule Vietnam. So, we supported our ally in trying to stomp out an ideology which did not serve us.

Mojo, you are exactly right, the war was misfought. We definitely should have taken the fight to Hanoi, crossing the 17th parallel and forcing them to fight a conventional war (a type of war they could never win). I think General Nguyen Cao Ky was right when he said that the North Vietnamese population would not stand for Chinese troops on their soil. They spent 1000 years pushing them out, and they would have been mighty upset with the Hanoi government if they let them in again.

More later...

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[TheMojoPin]

Mojo, you are exactly right, the war was misfought. We definitely should have taken the fight to Hanoi, crossing the 17th parallel and forcing them to fight a conventional war (a type of war they could never win). I think General Nguyen Cao Ky was right when he said that the North Vietnamese population would not stand for Chinese troops on their soil. They spent 1000 years pushing them out, and they would have been mighty upset with the Hanoi government if they let them in again.

I agree with everything you just said. 100%. Beautiful.

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"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[El Mudo]

I don't know if anybody was around back in the late 1700's, but there's a good argument that without France, there wouldn't be a United States today.


My point was the French should have gotten out of Nam after WW2 ended. The Viets had just kicked out the japs and were pretty tired of not being able to run their own affairs...

Plus militarily and financially France was in no shape to have any colonies at all..they shoulda just got out..

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Next: Denver
Rich Gannon for NFL MVP!!
Bill Callahan for Coach of the Year!!
El queso es viejo y moldio. ¨D¢nde est* el cuarto de ba¤o?

[NewYorkDragons80]

The French really didn't want Vietnam as a colony, IMO. They wanted Indochina to remain a protectorate, but not a "puppet" (not unlike Canada's relationship with Britain.) They were, however, against communism and it would've been a black eye if the ideology they hated rose to power in a former colony. Also communism's doctorine is the "oppressed worker" rising against capitalsim. A communist victory in Vietnam would have made the French look like racist, mean-spirited colonialists who forced the Vietnamese to embrace Marxist ideology.

Mojo, have you read Nguyen Cao Ky's book, "Buddha's Child"?

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[TheMojoPin]

Mojo, have you read Nguyen Cao Ky's book, "Buddha's Child"?

Nope, but I'll look it up when I head in to work tonight...thanks!

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[NewYorkDragons80]

I'll tell you right now that it is very entertaining and informative, but sometimes self-serving. (Like any autobiography)

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[Death Metal Moe]

I don't know a lot about this war, but you have to show respect to the men who just followed orders. Blame the descison makers, but show the soliders some understanding.

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