War with Iraq

[FMJeff]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/12/01/sproject.irq.inspectors/index.html

I realize it might be a little premature to say this, but I have a strong feeling they're not going to find anything. Why would Hussein make it easy to find if he had the capabilities to produce nuclear weapons anyway? That's like robbing a bank and leaving the money on the kitchen table when the cops ask to search your home.

I'm having trouble understanding why President Bush is pushing so hard to fight this guy. It just doesn't make sense. How is Iraq a threat to us? They weren't even a threat to us in the first Gulf War. (I'm talking about direct threats here. Disruption of our oil supply is not a direct threat.) I don't see how we could possibly be at war with a country with no navy. Where's the direct threat? Nuclear weapons? We're not going to notice a missle launch from Iraq and intervene before it strikes American soil? And would Iraq even take credit for it, especially in this day and age where public perception is key? Hussein may be crazy, but he's no fool. You don't become the leader of a country by stupidity.

The threat against this country and this planet is WAY too nebulous to blame on any one country or man. There's just so MANY people out there with hatred of others. I wonder what taking out Hussein is going to accomnplish. Someone else is just going to rise up and take his place. Why don't we attack the root problems and dismiss the quick fixes?

I don't see the logic in any of this. It's confusing and very ambiguous reasoning. Does anyone else find this at all a little convoluted?



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[Heavy]

I don't see the logic in any of this.


I don't see any logic in not doing something. "Theres no direct threat besides that whole nuke thing and I'm sure we can get it in time". Come on already. Theres so much bad shit out there and this fucker is someone that needs to go.....I got no problem in starting with him and Bin Ladin.

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[furie]

Why would Hussein make it easy to find if he had the capabilities to produce nuclear weapons anyway?


It's not easy to hide a nuclear weapons program. It's not something that you can cover with a tarp and whistle as they walk past you.

The US has intelligence that he's building nukes. We know he's been trying to do so since at least the late 80's. We have to be sure. Would you agree that if he were successful in obtaining one or several small nukes that he'd then be a threat to us?

I'm not totally convinced that we were ever that serious about going into Iraq. I believe it was a tactic to get Iraq to comply. They believed that Bush was crazy enough to do it, and so does the rest of the world. I don't see us going into Iraq if nothing is found.


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[A.J.]

I don't see how we could possibly be at war with a country with no navy.


True, Iraq no longer has much of a navy but they still can threaten U.S. ships in the area with mines and anti-ship missiles:

http://ebird.dtic.mil/Dec2002/s20021202139522.html

BTW, this article was simply for information on Iraq's naval capability.

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This message was edited by AJinDC on 12-2-02 @ 8:22 AM

[Megadeth]

Point is, Hussein's a punk bitch.
He refuses to follow a resolution that HE signed, and now the rest of the world is crying at us when we try to enforce it.
The UN is a complete joke though. They're giving him all kinds of warnings that they're gonna search a site, give the Iraqi's plenty of time to empty out the site.

[Megadeth]

I can't afford one.
Those things are damn expensive.

[SMOOCH]

He just wants to finish what daddy started, so daddy can pat him on the back and say "That's my boy."

[Megadeth]

"the economy"

I don't think one person I've talked to that says the economy sucks has ever been able to tell me WHY the economy sucks.

[FMJeff]

I don't see any logic in not doing something. "Theres no direct threat besides that whole nuke thing and I'm sure we can get it in time".


I just don't think it will accomplish anything. Granted the world would be rid of Saddam Hussein, but is that going to stabilize the region? I guess what I'm asking is, what are the immediate gains in removing this man from power? WWII was so easy. Hitler was on a rampage and needed to be stopped. Defeating Germany ended the war and saved a lot of people from Hitler's facism. But Iraq isn't doing anything obvious now. I just thought the threat of war was a little premature considering there wasn't any aggresion from the other side.

Another thing...doesn't Iraq have the right to develop its own nuclear weapons if we're allowed to develop ours? Why are we allowed to have a nuclear weapons program if Iraq is not?

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[furie]

The only thing that will stabilize the region is a peaceful resolution to the Israel/Palestine conflict.

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[ChickenHawk]

You don't become the leader of a country by stupidity.
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[Jobberific]

Chickenhawk, may I just say, greatest picture of all time.

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[Megadeth]

SMOOCH, apparently you have absolutely no knowledge of what happened in the Gulf War.

[Hawiian shirt craig]

this is the little dance we
must engage in so we can
kick this fuckers ass.
honestly we dont need to
yet, but its like when ur a
little kid, and you want to
fight someone. u walk up
and call their mother fat.
who cares? no one. but
now if he calls your mom
fat, you can hit him.

Saddam's mother is VERY
fat for the record.


-Hawiian Shirt Craig
THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T
HAVE NICE THINGS!!

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[furie]

I'm guessing that picture came from the "frat boy" days...

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[Captain Rooster]

UGH!

'nuff said

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[Yerdaddy]

AJ - Your link is for military personnel only. How does it compare to this: <a href="http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/index.html" target="_blank">Iraq Military Guide</a>?

SUITCASE NUKES: Suitcase nukes require extremely advanced technology, that only the Soviet Union and the US have been able to achieve. The nuclear weapon that Iraq was working on would have been too large for any of his missiles to even carry. Nobody believes that Iraq is capable of building or acquiring a suitcase nuke.

IRAQI MISSILES HITTING THE US: The longest-range missile that Iraq was able to achieve, and which he may have a small inventory of, is the al-Husayn, with a range of 600km. These are the SCUDs that he launched at Israel during the Gulf War. During the Gulf War 39 of these landed on Israel, killing a total of 8 people. Considering that the highest estimate of Iraqi missiles is about 50, there's not much of a threat to anyone from Iraqi missiles. If you're worried about an Iraqi missile hitting the United States, you have some serious homework to do.

The best general analysis of Bush's foreign policy is this: <a href="http://sobek.colorado.edu/~brahm/courses/PSCI2223Fall2002/ImperialAmbition.pdf" target="_blank">Ikenberry</a>. (It's a PDF file)

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[canofsoup15]

Sure it may be not the brightest idea, BUT IF YOU SAY YOU'RE GOING TO DO IT, DO IT. God i have ben waiting everyday to hear something saying "we have attacked iraq" no more of this trash talking. JUST GET ON WITH IT. And while you're at it, why not attack those other countries you named, the ones that harbor terriorists. While you're over there why not try to take out Bin laden too. I am dubious george gets anything done while in office.

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A few that remained were never found
All in a system,down

[A.J.]

AJ - Your link is for military personnel only. How does it compare to this: Iraq Military Guide?


Yerdaddy -- My link was to an article from the Norfolk paper. It talked about the Silkworm anti-ship missile and mine threats that were detailed much more extensively in the "Navy" section of your link.

I'll be out of the office until Friday and if you're interested, I can RFMail the article to you then.

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[TheMojoPin]

Would you agree that if he were successful in obtaining one or several small nukes that he'd then be a threat to us?

1. No, we're not Israel.

2. No, Saddam Hussein is not a terrorist. But I'd feel awful for the few thousand American troops that might get nuked/gassed if we storm in there.

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[Recyclerz]

I don't think one person I've talked to that says the economy sucks has ever been able to tell me WHY the economy sucks. <P> The economy currently sucks because capital investment by business is severely depressed because of the overinvestment in also those servers & switches back in the heady days of the late '90's. Not Bush's fault, not Clinton's fault either; just the overreaction of the market during a boom further stimulated by a loose money supply maintained by the Fed during the Y2K panic. <P> Why the economy will suck 10 years from now and into the future: Bush (& a Republican led Congress) chose this moment in time to piss away the fiscal surpluses of the late '90's by structuring a tax cut that really only benefits the ruling class in this country and, separately, by spending 100s of billions of dollars it is going to take to invade Iraq, try to flush out the Baathist party and to build from scratch a semi-legitimate, pro-Western government. Unlike his Dad who was crafty enough to build a coalition to pay for the last Gulf war, it looks as though the American taxpayers will be paying for 90% of this one, far into the future. So all the money that could have been used to pay down the national debt and to basically set aside for the horde of old people who are going to be on Social Security starting in ten years will be spent instead in Neiman Marcus in Houston & the Westchester Mall and in bribing Iraqis to please listen to us. <P> All of which is not to say Saddam isn't a sociopathic punk ass bitch cuz he is. I'll just echo Jeff's question as to why Iraq and why now, when we should be kicking in the doors of the madrassas in Pakistan and putting the boots to the next recruiting class of al-Qaeda. <P> <P>

You're only young once, but you can be immature forever. :-)

[Heavy]

Granted the world would be rid of Saddam Hussein, but is that going to stabilize the region?


If you had Herpes and Warts would you not cure the warts ASAP even if in doing so youd still have herpes?

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[Megadeth]

Copy and Paste sure is handy Recyclerz.

[TheMojoPin]

Copy and Paste sure is handy Recyclerz.

And your point is...?

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[peacefrog081]

ron and fez are talking about it now. this stuff is freaking sick. the professional rapists, coffin treatment, freakin scary as hell. reminds me of Milosevic and what he did to the people of his country when he ruled

[DC Reed]

Im 16, i may not know alot about the situation. Im not anxious to goto war, infact i dont really see a point right now, if we attack the middle east wouldnt that just cause more problems?

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[Captain Rooster]

Reed, we want to clean up Iraq so your children are safe. This is not just spin.

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[peacefrog081]

rooster sorry if this has been answered already but are you completely out of the marines?? i give my personal thank you in helping serve the country and kicking some ass

[The Jays]

Why are we allowed to have a nuclear weapons program if Iraq is not?


....well, one of the reasons is that one of the conditions of the treaty for the Gulf War is that Iraq cannot build weapons....

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[Captain Rooster]

I am a former US Army Ranger and an officer.

I appreciate your sentiment. The real heroes are overseas doing their duty.



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ADF fan since day one.

[Recyclerz]

Reed, we want to clean up Iraq so your children are safe. This is not just spin. <P>
Rooster, I agree it isn't spin. Saddam Hussein is an evil, sadistic scumbag and the world will be a better place when he's burning in hell (a la Southpark). But I'm still not convinced of the cost/benefit analysis of going to war with Iraq right now. I have no doubt those atrocities from the British report are true. But you could read an Amnesty International report equally as bad from at least 50 other countries on this planet, including some of our alleged buddies (Pakistan, China, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, et al.). <P>
The way I see it- Best case scenario: You guys go in there, clean house in about a month, & we start trying to put together a new government. Despite the oil money, it will be costly to US taxpayers because we'll have to keep a large peacekeeping force in the country to keep the Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds from settling old and new scores, and you know our military will be the target of all kinds of Islamist nut jobs who will have the opportunity to try to kill Americans without leaving home. I know Paul Wolfowitz is a smart man but his idea that there is a pro-western majority in Iraq sounds like fantasy. <P>
The worst case is they get in a few lucky shots, with chemical or biological weapons, and kill thousands of our people. I don't doubt you guys still have the capacity to squash his military but what happens if the war widens cuz the Iranian mullahs decide that the internal problems they have with their own students/reformers could be solved by an old fashioned jihad of their own against the Americans who would be encircling them. And that happens to be when the Saudi ruling family decides to check on their investments in Monte Carlo en masse leaving the oil fields untended. <P>
I'm not a Tom Clancy wannabe (although that's redundant) and I'll defer to your professional expertise on how to win these wars. But I do read history and agree with the Powell rule of picking your fights carefully. <P>
Bottom line: I feel we've got Saddam on a short leash right now. He's still a rabid dog, but I'm more worried about the ones that are still running loose. <P>

You're only young once, but you can be immature forever. :-)

This message was edited by Recyclerz on 12-4-02 @ 11:53 PM

[Megadeth]

Why are we allowed to have a nuclear weapons program if Iraq is not?


Wow, people like that are almost as much of a danger to the US as Osama bin Laden is.

[Megadeth]

That question is just horribly stupid. Anyone who asks that must live in the US. We wouldn't care if a country like say, Sweden got them, but Iraq???

[TheMojoPin]

....well, one of the reasons is that one of the conditions of the treaty for the Gulf War is that Iraq cannot build weapons....

*Please note: I do NOT think Iraq should have nuclear weapons*

We signed several international treaties in the 70's with the other major nuclear powers that promised that the signing powers would NOT aid any other nation that did not have a nuclear weapons program in actually building one. But we went ahead and did it anyway in Israel. And THAT'S one to grow on.

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"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

Wow, people like that are almost as much of a danger to the US as Osama bin Laden is.

Sure, questions are BAD. He was asking avery broad, legitimate question that he actually wanted an answer to. Please try to think.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[The Jays]

Sure, questions are BAD. He was asking avery broad, legitimate question that he actually wanted an answer to. Please try to think.


... he's also questioning the integrity of teh Jeff.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

Right now things are going exactly as they should be going. We went through the proper steps, jumped through the UN's hoops, and threw the ball back in Saddam's court. It's his turn to try not to mess up, but to truly allow weapons inspectors would mean him conceding defeat and I don't think he is prepared to do that.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[The Jays]

....big surprise... Iraq claims to have nothing..... <P>
http://www.msnbc.com/news/842500.asp?0cv=CA01 <P>

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[Yerdaddy]

and big surprise - Bush tries to undermine weapons inspectors:

<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021203/ap_wo_en_po/na_gen_us_iraq_6" target="_blank">Bush says "signs are not encouraging" that Saddam is willing to avoid war </a>
<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021203/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_weapons_inspectors_194" target="_blank">U.N. Team Inspects Saddam's Palaces<a/>
<a href="" target="_blank">The inspections are going unhindered. And what does Bush tell us? 'The signs are not encouraging'</a>
<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/Netgravity/popup5/0,,,00.html?IFRHEIGHT="200"?IFRWIDTH="200"?IFRAMEBGCOL="000000"?SPACEDESC=popupbig17" target="_blank">Criticised weapons inspectors insist that stealthy visits are getting results</a>
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5596-2002Dec3.html" target="_blank">Inspectors Enter Hussein Palace</a>

...just as the strategy has been all along:
<a href="http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0619-01.htm" target="_blank">Behind 'Plot' on Hussein, a Secret Agenda</a>

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It was a joke goddammit!

[Captain Rooster]

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'Nuff Said

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[Yerdaddy]

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'Nuff Said.

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It was a joke goddammit!

[TheMojoPin]

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Uhm, yeah...'nuff said? Sorry, it's all I've got...

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