Ronald Reagan

[Coco]

I consider him as probably our best "living president" today. Who do you think is?
______________________

We can't change our past, but we can change the way we look at it - into something more positive

This message was edited by Coco on 11-29-02 @ 3:46 PM

[Bama]

He's still alive?

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You know you love him!

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[DarkHippie]

reagan had altzheimers while still in office, a disease that most certainly would impair his decision-making abilities, yet he did not step down from office. Who knows what damage has been done to our government because of his hubris. And of course, there was the fallacy of "trickle down economics" and the "Iran Contra scandal"

With clinton, we had 8 years of peace and unprecendented prospertity. He eliminated the national debt that Reagan and Bush had rung up with their massive spending, and his scandals never involved dealing with enemies of the state

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[TheMojoPin]

I consider none of our living presidents to be worthy of anything except a poke to the eye.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Gvac]

Beyond a shadow of a doubt Ronald Reagan is our greatest living former President, and maybe one of the greatest of all time.

He was a proud man who respected the Presidency and our country's history so much that he wouldn't even set foot in the Oval Office without a suit and tie on. This is in sharp contrast to a white trash scumbag who would cheat on his wife in there.

Reagan was also a gutsy and fearless leader who demanded that the Soviet Union "tear down that wall." They did.

Under his leadership, our country regained it's pride, military, and economy, all of which had been decimated under his predecessor's administration. I believe our current President is taking a cue from Mr. Reagan by attempting to right the wrongs from his predecessor.

Mr. Reagan also NEVER sold our national military and nuclear secrets to a communist country, unlike a certain recent occupant of the White House.

There is also no evidence whatsoever that Mr. Reagan suffered from his current condition while in office. If he had, however, I would trust an impaired Reagan over a morally bankrupt hillbilly any day of the week.



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This message was edited by Gvac on 11-29-02 @ 8:26 PM

[Death Metal Moe]

Reagan had CLASS. Clinton doesn't even know what class is.

Reagan ran up a big defense bill DEFENDING US IN THE COLD WAR SMART GUY.

And the Berlin Wall fell durning Bush #1's presidency.

Clinton's presidency was the 1st to NOT need a huge defense budget against Russsia. While this alone does NOT make all the difference, it is a large contributor towards an explination of how Reagan did what he had to do, and Clinton was just the IN the Right Palce at the Right Time.

He Magooed his way into office at a great time.

And let's not forget how he ignored a few different offers from foreign friends of ours to get Bin Laden. Good job, Bubba.

Oh, and if Ronnie was starting to slip in office, and you want to accuse him of damaging us with his mis-informed and confused descisons, let's talk about a man who had just as many emergencies and was having his Helmet Washed by a chubby cunt in the Oval Office.

DON'T FUCK WITH RONNIE. DON'T FUCK WITH THE BUSH FAMILY EITHER.

I HOPE that Bush can try to clean all the DNA off the walls in the white house.

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[The Chairman]

With clinton, we had 8 years of peace and unprecedented prosperity. He eliminated the national debt that Reagan and Bush had rung up with their massive spending, and his scandals never involved dealing with enemies of the state

Go GVAC and all the Reaganophiles!

I'd rather have Ron in office with Stage 4 Alzheimer's than Bill Clinton.

I won't repeat what's already been said about what was great about him but I'll add:

1) He was a man of conviction. Like him or not, you knew where you stood with him. Clinton was a mercurial chameleon (yet brilliant politician) who made decisions based on polls, not moral, ethical or ideological conviction.

2) Reagan's economic policy had its faults, but Star Wars and his being a great leader ended the Cold War. Clinton would have just gone to the USSR to check out the Siberian Prostitutes.

3) Clinton's 8 years of economic prosperity had everything to do with the serendipity of being in office during the Internet Revolution. Neither he, nor Al Gore, invented the Internet. But they benefited from the economic boom it triggered, something not seen since the Industrial Revolution and something we well might never see again in our lifetimes. Robert Rubin WAS a great Secy of Treasury and Allan Greenspan was good under Clinton before he began wimping out.

4) Reagan's legacy will be of a Great or Near Great President who led us out of the Cold War. Clinton's legacy will continue to decline, reaching its nadir years from now when we look back and remember 8 wasted years of a President with phenomenal intellect and political savvy who was so morally corrupt that he was more interested in blow jobs than real jobs and more interested in women's holes and polls than strength and honor.

And it doesn't take a genius to realize that while the "8 years of economic prosperity" had nothing to do with Clinton, Hollywood Slick Willie Clinton's lack of economic vision led directly to what Bush inherited: Enron, Tyco, Worldcom, etc.

Bill and Hillary Clinton rank just a tad above Osama bin Ladin and Sadam Hussein as the people posing the most danger to the United States.

And Hillary Clinton ranks between smallpox and anthrax as the greatest single danger to the future of the United States.

I will end my spew with the defining moment of Clinton's Presidency:

"It depends on your definition of what the meaning of the word is is."


The Chairman
AKA "The King of Spew, Useless Information and Long Posts"


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This message was edited by Chairman_Kaga on 11-29-02 @ 6:51 PM

[A.J.]

With clinton...his scandals never involved dealing with enemies of the state

Well as long as they didn't deal with foreigners I guess that makes Clinton's numerous scandals OK. Oh, except he did sell missile guidance technology to China and nuclear reactors to North Korea. Perhaps if Clinton had pursued "enemies of the state" like Osama bin Laden with the same vigor his Justice Department pursued Microsoft, he could have captured or killed bin Laden.

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[TheGameHHH]

That's why I love Gvac!!!


IT'S TIME TO PLAY THE GAME-AHHH!

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Aggie rules!!!

[Bama]

Man I miss O&A's Reagan bits.
"Mommy?" haha.

Eh, Reagan was OK, but geez can ya give Bill some credit? The economy blew in '92.

So he got a little somethin', somethin' on the side. Who cares? He wasn't the first and he won't be the last.


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[TheMojoPin]

I have to pick between Clinton and Reagan? Sure, let me decide whether Hitler or Stalin was the nicer guy was first. We haven't had an effective president in a good fifty years, Reagan AND Clinton included. Reagan and Clinton did only two things well, and that was say all the right things to make their supporters think they were some kind of demi-god. Clinton is responsible for the economy of the 90's? Please. Reagan "won the Cold War"? Now you're just being insane.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

"Iran Contra scandal"

Don't bother. Bring that up and any Reagan-lovers will simply revert to talking about their favorite subject: hot sperm erupting from the penis of Bill Clinton. Of course, bring up the Clinton White House's nuclear adventure with the Chinese, and his fans will simply start doing awful "Mommy Reagan" impersonations.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[The Chairman]

Hey Mojo:

I like your Mojo.

<img src = http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/kaga.gif>
thanks ADF for the SigPic!!
I'll take that Chesterfield now...

[TheMojoPin]

Hey Mojo:

I like your Mojo.

Ah, but would you VOTE for me? There is the REAL question...

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Doogie]

With clinton, we had 8 years of peace and unprecendented prospertity. He eliminated the national debt that Reagan and Bush had rung up with their massive spending, and his scandals never involved dealing with enemies of the state

Sure, Clinton's scandals only involved the Skanks of the State...

Bill Clinton is essentially a Republican with some democratic ideas. One of the first things that Clinton proposed was the school voucher program. Something that is forgotten about when discussing the Clinton years, and a prgram that was NOT an original idea of Clinton's. That was actually first brought to the national scene by Ronald Reagan during his 1980 campaign. Clintons' second big project, health care, is a Harry Truman idea. And all Clinton did was look at sociallized medicine of countires he inhabited when ours needed him for duty (ahem, Vietnam). Most of Clintons' programs were all failures.

And it is very difficult to credit or bash a president for the state of the economy. The president has little to do with the economy of the nation.

The one thing I do credit Clinton for doing is bringing the warring factions of England and the IRA to the peace table to draw up the cease-fire. That is the one thing I can credit Clinton for.

Now back to Reagan and trickle down economics...the reason why it is greatly criticized is that social programs were cut. Reagan believed, as do most republicans, that people should be able to take care of themselves. That the idea that there is welfare is preposteous and people should learn to live for themselves (I personally dont fully agree with this, just am stating the philisohical nature of republicans). So when the man was unable to respond, ala Alzheimers, that is when his critics struck (Most critics usually strike when people are unable to defend themselves...maily following a death).
Reagan did restore national pride to this nation and did deal with the enemy of the moment(former Soviet Union) by pushing them into an economic and military race to see who truly was the most powerful state. And you know what, we won in the end...so yes Reagan is one of the greatest living presidents and it is fully understandable to see why he is the only president to live while there is a US Warship named after him...

God Bless Ronald Reagan!!!!

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[Bob Impact]

Reagan, yeah, great...8 years worth of government debt, increased poverty, slow economics and interceding in world politics in order to spread the republican seeds of globalizaton. FANTASTIC!

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[Hawiian shirt craig]

I consider him as
probably our best "living
president" today. Who do you
think is?


coco, babe.... are u on the
crack??

Bill clinton is. end of
story. ronny reGUN is an
asshole. its b/c of him that
we lost all our tax write offs
adn the economy took a shit.
that trickle down idea was
great, huh? and oh! Iran
contra was a real smove move.

so waht if slick willy got a
hummer?? the economy roared,
which was also just good luck,
and no one fucked with us.
that simple.

GORE i


-Hawiian Shirt Craig
THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T
HAVE NICE THINGS!!

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[A.J.]

The economy blew in '92.


The economy started to rebound in 1992.

Bill Clinton is essentially a Republican with some democratic ideas.


No. Bill Clinton, ever the skillful politician (and I am being complimentary here), started to move to the center after the disaster (for him and the Democrats) of the 1994 midterm elections, based on the advice of pollsters like Dick Morris. Based on this overwhelming rejection of his original policies he adapted a more "centrist" approach in order to villify the Republicans and get reelected in 1996.

Clinton's administration was based on polls not principles. Like him or not you know at least knew where Reagan stood.

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A Skidmark production.

[Megadeth]

Reagan is definitely the best living President, don't get me started.
He had balls and took no shit from anyone.
I loved when he was debating Jimmy Carter and the moderator tried to shut him up. Reagan was like "I'm paying for this microphone damn it!"

[The Chairman]

we lost all our tax write offs

How unfortunate that you don't realize the only tax cuts that matter are the elimination of the Estate Tax and on capital gains.

My suggestion. Become a millionaire and then figure out what the best tax write offs are...

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thanks ADF for the SigPic!!
I'll take that Chesterfield now...

[JohnnyCard]

I remember the state of the country when Carter was President and the huge difference after Reagan took office. Carter is a great humanitarian, but an awful president, Clinton was neither. History will judge all of them. In recent years many people have been looking at the Reagan presidency and have found that he was a great president. Al Gore lost the most recent election because of Bill Clinton. His hijinks in office reflected poorly on Gore. He should have ran away with the election if America thought Clinton was so popular and sucessful. People loved Reagan's presidency, and showed that when they put Bush (#1) in office. I remember some talk back then of ppl wanting to change the constitution so Reagan could run for a third term. Also, I think its hard to truly understand the fear that was prevalant about nuclear war with the USSR unless you were growing up at that time. Reagan and his people were able to help Americans to not be afraid by winning the cold war. So, in my opinion, of the five living presidents (Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush(#1), and Clinton) I vote for Reagan as greatest living Pres. <P>

[Drudge Jr.]

i'm staying far away from this topic...

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[Bob Impact]

I would be interested to see if anyone has family who were driving semi's when Reagan was president... I do, my uncle. Most older board members will remeber a time when truckers were known as Knights of the Road. Reagen deregulated the industry, causing massive competition amongst the trucking industries. Think of that the next time a truck barrels bast you on the highway or you see a news story about a jackknifed trailer causing massive accidents.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

You know you love him!
All the Clinton-philes should read up on a man named Calvin Coolidge. Another son of a bitch who could do no wrong when he left office, but then we realized what a self-serving low-life he was after he had steered us to economic disaster. Go ahead and blame Reagan for the recession of the early 90's, but you must also take with it the fact that Clinton was in office long enough to send us into our current recession. Take your pick of which recession you want to blame on who, because I know how convenient it is for Clintonites to use our current leader as a scapegoat.

Until my brother completed the United States Air Force Officer Training School 2 years ago, he was eligible for food stamps as an enlisted Airman. Who is to blame for that? The alleged "Advocate of the oppressed worker," William Jefferson Clinton.

The political jellyfish that was Bill Clinton bears indirect responsibility for 9/11, then his cronies blame the intelligence agencies they themselves destroyed. Tom Clancy wrote this brilliant article on September 18, 2001: http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=95001164

What else do we have on BJ? Hmmm... Some of those on the left seem to call the looming conflict with Iraq "Bush's Oil War." Why not take a look at Clinton's Oil War, shall we? It only lasted about 48 hours and was fought by a few dozen soldiers on the streets of Mogadishu. (Rooster, feel free to jump in whenever you want.)

What I will never object to is Clinton's extramarital affairs. I have no problem so long as it is between consenting adults and nobody gets killed (Well, at least not this time Willy.) That's his own business and has nothing to do with his leadership skills (which were piss-poor in their own right.)

Let's leave it at this, those who choose Reagan list the reasons why Reagan should be, but those who choose Clinton only list the reasons why it shouldn't be Reagan, (and they are few.)

Mojo, while we're on the topic of Iran, who was released on the day that Reagan was sworn in? Mandella? No, it wasn't Mandella. Was it Lizzie Grubman? No, it wasn't Lizzie Grubman. Who was it? Someone please help me out.

Those who point out Reagan's admitted astronomical military spending fail to highlight that it was military spending like Star Wars that drove the Soviets bankrupt. I doubt Jimmy Carter would have had the balls to introduce a plan as bold as that (Nice guy, terrible leader.)

Opponents of Reagan's trickle-down economics are not very different from New Deal opposition. Sure, the system isn't perfect, but the country is a much better place with them than without them.

Like Rudy Giuliani said last night, FDR defined the first half of the 20th century, and Reagan defined the second half. We'll see who is right when Reagan's face is added to Rushmore and Clinton has a Ben & Jerry's flavor named after him.


"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[TheMojoPin]

Mojo, while we're on the topic of Iran, who was released on the day that Reagan was sworn in? Mandella? No, it wasn't Mandella. Was it Lizzie Grubman? No, it wasn't Lizzie Grubman. Who was it? Someone please help me out.

Please. That was simply a politcal move on the part of the terrorists to smack Carter in the face. ANYONE else could have been sworn in as president besides Carter; that was the point. No hostages would be released as long as he was in office, plain and simple. Regan wasn't a factor. To give Reagan credit simply for being there is as absurd as giving Clinton credit for the economy during his term.

And why bring me into this by mentioning me personally? I have no love for Clinton, or any Democratic president since Truman. Same for the Republicans.

And this idea of "history will judge Reagan to be a great president" is ludicrous. Revisionist history is attempting to paint Nixon as a "great" or "undervalued" or "unappreciated" president as well. Nevermind that he singlehandedly undermined the faith, trust and support the American public, all politcal parties, all races, all peoples had in the American government. Nevermind that his administration essentially committed genocide half a world away. Nevermind the lies, the dirty tricks that have polluted the American political landscape to this day, and have made our elections on any level into mockable spitting contests. "History" is too often tosed to the masses overfed and with blinders on, which ultimately doesn't do anyone any good, except to those that simply wish to further their own goals and manipulations in the present.

Clinton and Reagan did nothing but ensure another few decades of millitary, social and economic instability and panics in this country. And for that, I couldn't care enough about either to give them the time of day, much less declare them "great", or "good". They both get a "competent." Excellent talking heads, though...bravo.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."



This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-30-02 @ 1:03 AM

[Captain Rooster]

Reagan embodies American Pride.

I was eight years old when I first heard him speak and I was moved. Truly an amazing leader at a delicate time in our history.

Gvac mentioned all of my other points.

God Bless you, Mr. President!

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We have assumed control. We have assumed control.</center>

[TheMojoPin]

I was eight years old when I first heard him speak and I was moved. Truly an amazing leader at a delicate time in our history.

I was moved by Reagan, Bush I and Clinton all the various times I met them, and then went back to hating them an hour or so later. Charisma is one thing...

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[NewYorkDragons80]

Nixon as a "great" or "undervalued" or "unappreciated" president as well.
There's no denying Nixon's accomplishments overseas. Never before did the United States have a ballsier president. Just look at Cambodia. The only man who could have turned those backwards people around was prevented by his own Congress.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[TheMojoPin]

There's no denying Nixon's accomplishments overseas.

Opening up China is indeed a massive accomplishment. And one he should be credited for again and again. But it comes nowhere near the damage he did to the American politcal system itself. He actually skewed and distorted the entire country mentally and socially for the rest of the time we exist under this politcal system. And that's unforgivable.

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VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Dudeman]

"ronald reagan, the
actor???"

- Dr. Emmitt Brown, ca.
November 5, 1955


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thanks wwfallon!

[DarkHippie]

Does anyone remember the massive poverty throughout the 80's? The closing down of factories, destroying towns, in the name of "progress"? The destruction of the American farmer? I remember all of this, and I was but a child.

Some more great moves of Reagan: arming Iraq in its war with Iran, and arming Afghan rebels in its battle with the soviets. Good thing these never came back to bite us in the ass. I guess he didn't ask joyce dixon for advice on these winners.

oh, and you can keep saying than reagan won the cold war, but it was gorbachev that was the reformer. He changed the way of thinking in the soviet union. Ronnie just spent money on missles and looked good doing it.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

Good thing these never came back to bite us in the ass.
The Taliban just happened to be Osama bin Laden's host at the time of the 9/11 attacks. Trust me, the WTC would have fallen if he was in Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, or the Sudan. The host country is really irrelevant.

Now you say Gorbachev was the Reformer and he was responsible for the fall of Communism in Eastern Europe; but wasn't it Reagan who bankrupted the Soviet Union by arming the Muhjahadeen? And if you think the US wanted a fundamentalist regime in power, think again. By all accounts (except the Communists) the United States would have rather had a Red Afghanistan than a Middle East filled with Green.

On the one hand, you criticize Reagan for arming the Afghan rebels, but on the other hand, you say Gorbachev is the reason Communism fell in Russia. You can't have it both ways.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1



This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 11-30-02 @ 12:13 PM

[Megadeth]

"Does anyone remember the massive poverty throughout the 80's?"

I really doubt you do.

[NewYorkDragons80]

He actually skewed and distorted the entire country mentally and socially for the rest of the time we exist under this politcal system. And that's unforgivable.
Agreed, but come on. Nixon is just the guy who got caught. Every president has dirty laundry. How many friends of Clinton are dead? Yet somehow, Aidid got Clinton's escort to the UN. I just wish we could have combined LBJ's domestic policy with Nixon's foreign policy.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[Megadeth]

And can someone tell me why opening trade up with China was a good thing?
Youd DO realize that it was China who was supplying the Viet Cong with weapons, who then used them to kill our troops?
It was also China who we fought against (as well as the North Koreans) in the Korean war.
Thanks to Nixon, every time you buy some cheap crap there's a good chance it was made in China, and that money will be used to make some AK-47s or something.

[DarkHippie]

"Does anyone remember the massive poverty throughout the 80's?"

I really doubt you do.
This might comes as a surprise, Megadeth, but not everyone can live in Old Tappan. my family worked their asses off, and I had my share of "no frills" brand food and urine scented elevators. so don't you dare presume that you know anything about me!

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[TheMojoPin]

Agreed, but come on. Nixon is just the guy who got caught. Every president has dirty laundry. How many friends of Clinton are dead?

Yeah, but he REALLY upped the ante with unheard of levels of backstabbing and paranoia.

Look at it this way...all the diehard supporters of Reagan who think he's a great president and loved him at the time he was in office, and hate Clinton like he was the great Satan? Republicans. All the people who think of the same of Clinton and loathe Ronnie? Democrats. Whoa, hey, shocker. I won't be convinced on either until someone "crosses the line".

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Megadeth]

Hey, I moved here 25 years ago when it was all farms. It was like Deliverance.

[The Jays]

And can someone tell me why opening trade up with China was a good thing?


Because China is a communist country with like 15 trillion people, nucleaer weapons, and is the largest country in the world. We were not going to make China talk to the hand, and then ignore the problem. The way the world works out problems is through business.


Reagen deregulated the industry, causing massive competition amongst the trucking industries. Think of that the next time a truck barrels bast you on the highway or you see a news story about a jackknifed trailer causing massive accidents.


Free market is what this country was founded on, and free market is what ensures the people get what they want and that the prices stablize, through competiton. What's crazy is tht you are against it because truck drivers do not know how to drive. Wow.

<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> F--- what you heard.</font>
<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> That cab has a dent in it.</font> [center]
[center]http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/jays777/rfsig.gif



This message was edited by TheJays on 11-30-02 @ 1:11 PM

[DarkHippie]

Now you say Gorbachev was the Reformer and he was responsible for the fall of Communism in Eastern Europe: but wasn't it Reagan who bankrupted the Soviet Union by arming the Muhjahadeen?
Communism is a very nice thought, but it only works in Kibbutzes and on Gilligan's Island. The Soviet Union was doomed from its start because of human nature: no room for the individual to progress, no reason for the individual to try harder. The Soviet Union suffered from diminshing returns for many years. Gorbachev saw this and tried to save what was left of his country.

and for the record. gorbachev didn't invade afghanistan. I don't believe he became general secretary until 1985.

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[The Chairman]

Does anyone remember the massive poverty throughout the 80's? The closing down of factories, destroying towns, in the name of "progress"? The destruction of the American farmer? I remember all of this, and I was but a child.


I was a young adult and I don't remember any of that. Interesting that the greatest act of welfare reform (making people who complacently waited around for their welfare checks to actually get a job) was implemented under Clinton. One of the good things he did. He had good polls on this one, it was a complete success.

Some more great moves of Reagan: arming Iraq in its war with Iran, and arming Afghan rebels in its battle with the soviets. Good thing these never came back to bite us in the ass.

Another thing I remember is the Iran Contra Hearings (geez I remember the Watergate Hearings for that matter). In any case there was this certain guy, named Lt. Colonel Oliver North, a true patriot, who testified and talked about the threat of some guy America had never heard of until that point - Osama bin Laden.

oh, and you can keep saying than Reagan won the cold war, but it was Gorbachev that was the reformer.
No doubt Gorbachev contributed vastly to this, but the regime change in the USSR was inevitable, catalyzed by Reagan. The CCCP Hockey team was in the shitter and people were sick of eating boiled cabbage every day. Now the Russian mob owned restaurants and nightclubs at least have decent food.

Also a little known fact about Gorbachev was that the reason for his progressiveness was our CIA planted a special device on his head that we controlled from the Pentagon. It looked like a port wine stain birthmark to everyone else, but we knew what it really was.

I started as a Democrat (age 18-20). Then went Republican. Then the Religious Right killed the party. I am now a Libertarian, but continue to view Reagan as a great one. I hated Nancy and still do, but she stood by her man, unlike Hillary who used and uses Bill to promote herself. The American people did not elect Hilary Clinton to the White House but she acted like it was a dual Presidency. Remember a certain guy named Vincent Foster showing up dead? How about Travelgate? Her influence in promoting Communists like Lani Guanier for Administration posts? Her hand picking cancers like Donna Shalala and Janet Reno?

And one thing that will forever remain a thorn in my side and perhaps the greatest travesty of all: The fact the Robert Bork is not on the Supreme Court.

<img src = http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/kaga.gif>
thanks ADF for the SigPic!!
I'll take that Chesterfield now...

[TheMojoPin]

In any case there was this certain guy, named Lt. Colonel Oliver North, a true patriot, who testified and talked about the threat of some guy America had never heard of until that point - Osama bin Laden.

Oh my, no. Of all the people to fall for this insipid little bit of glurge, I never dared to dream it would be my new hero, Kaga. Say it ain't so, Joe!

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/north.htm

And men like North and G. Gordon Liddy are not patriots. If I hear one more goober call up to their shows and "thank them for their service to our country", I will cry. These men are manipulative, lying criminals. And this has no basis on their politcal leanings. I think they're neck and neck with Nixon and Clinton as the ballsiest liars ever to work the government from the inside in the last 30 years.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-30-02 @ 2:36 PM

[furie]

He eliminated the national debt that Reagan and Bush had rung up


WHAT?! no he didn't! if that were true then by 2000 we'd have had 0 debt. but we still have the same $3 trillon debt. We had 3 years of surplus at the beginning of clinton's term. before any of his programs began to have an effect. Not that bush sr should get credit either. it just was an upswing.

Now, if you applied all of the $1 billon surplus that we had, it would take 300 years to pay it off. not 8 years.

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thanks adf!
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[Orallo]

Never ceases to blow my mind how middle class America can identify itself so much with the republican party.

Republicans are the (enomic) upper class of this country and will do everything it takes to keep it that way. I guess you all dream that the republican's goal is to help everyone join their elite club of luxury and riches.

Well, let me spell it out for you, its not. Their goal is (was and will be) to keep things the way they are (them up there, us down here).

As per Reagan... he was an actor before the Presidency, and performed his best role (as an actor) during the Presidency. He was nothing more than a puppet.

Thats my 2 cents, Peace & Hugs.

<IMG SRC="http://www.talktime.com/i/SIGPIC3.jpg">


WAYS TO SKIN A CAT #173: starving PCP -laden gerbils

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT #137: tweezers

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #12 Hydrochloric acid.

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #27 Use an electric belt sander.

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #4 Cattle prod set on "Ultra High".

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #42 Use a weedeater.

[The Chairman]

Oh my, no. Of all the people to fall for this insipid little bit of glurge, I never dared to dream it would be my new hero, Kaga. Say it ain't so, Joe!

Please see my post "Sarcasm" on "Ask the Horde King".

Gotcha!

Charter Member of Mojo Admiration Society

CK1

<img src = http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/kaga.gif>
thanks ADF for the SigPic!!
I'll take that Chesterfield now...

[Megadeth]

Republicans cut taxes for everyone, how can they be "anti Middle Class"?
Please don't give me that "tax breaks for the rich" bullshit either.

[Megadeth]

Exactly TheJays.
The liberal mentality is "it's NEVER my fault that I'm poor, it's someone else's"
Liberalism is like a disease that must be eradicated from the face of the earth.
The liberal idea of government is "You have more than me, therefore it must be taken away from you and given to me"

[The Jays]

Republicans are the (enomic) upper class of this country and will do everything it takes to keep it that way. I guess you all dream that the republican's goal is to help everyone join their elite club of luxury and riches.

Well, let me spell it out for you, its not. Their goal is (was and will be) to keep things the way they are (them up there, us down here).


Ah, there is the socialist tone of a liberal. The answer is not to have government bring everyone onto the same level. Republicans want people to earn their own way. For you to make a buck, you have to get the skills you need on your own, earn your money on your own. The country was founded on ideas of capitalism. People shouldn't have to rely on government in order to make something of yourself. This constant rich vs poor bullshit is a cop out. If you want money, then get the skills, find an opportunity, and go for it. The government isn't responsible for your life, you are, so if you don't like being poor or middle class, then go find a way to make money on your own, legitamatly.

Republicans want you to do it own your own, because they believe you can. Democrats want to help you because they believe you can't do it on your own.

<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> F--- what you heard.</font>
<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> That cab has a dent in it.</font> [center]
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[Orallo]

You are right Megadeath, they do cut taxes,

And they also cut social programs.

And they also cut pay rises to government employees (see the news today???)

And they cut spending on education.

And they cut social freedoms (did you knoow that if you have a drug related conviction of any kind you are not elegible for financial aid for college???)

And they cut restrictions for companies that pollute the environment.


Come to think of it they do a good job at this cutting thing...


Peace & Hugs

<IMG SRC="http://www.talktime.com/i/SIGPIC3.jpg">


WAYS TO SKIN A CAT #173: starving PCP -laden gerbils

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT #137: tweezers

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #12 Hydrochloric acid.

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #27 Use an electric belt sander.

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #4 Cattle prod set on "Ultra High".

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #42 Use a weedeater.

[Doogie]

Some more great moves of Reagan: arming Iraq in its war with Iran, and arming Afghan rebels in its battle with the soviets


Yes and how quickly we forget the common enemy at the time!!! How badly we were terrified of the Soviet Union...how quickly people forget!!!!!!!

<IMG SRC=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/doogie.gif>
ADF Fan since day one...this sig rocks!!!
"Who is more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?"-Obi Wan Kenobi
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[Orallo]

TheJays, I do very well for myself, thanks for your concern.

I went to college (worked my way through it WITHOUT ANY financial aid) and now I have a very nice cushy job.

The idea that all democrats are comunists/socialist bums that are just waiting for a government handout is simply a fallacy.

But I do think that a government should help the citicens that pay the taxes to get an education, medical care, and if for whatever reason you are donw on your luck and need a helping hand, they should be there to help out.

Peace & hugs,


<IMG SRC="http://www.talktime.com/i/SIGPIC3.jpg">


WAYS TO SKIN A CAT #173: starving PCP -laden gerbils

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT #137: tweezers

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #12 Hydrochloric acid.

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #27 Use an electric belt sander.

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #4 Cattle prod set on "Ultra High".

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #42 Use a weedeater.

[Megadeth]

"But I do think that a government should help the citicens that pay the taxes to get an education, medical care, and if for whatever reason you are donw on your luck and need a helping hand, they should be there to help out."

I do in some cases too, but there are MANY Democrats who feel that people should be completely reliant upon the government.

[Megadeth]

Don't forget some of Bill Clinton's foreign policy disasters, like the 6 Billion dollars he gave to North Korea to build a nuclear reactor which they then build nuclear weapons with and are screwing with us with now.

[Recyclerz]

Oh man, I love these politico-threads. Before I get all partisian, I want to throw out some semi-objective food for thought. About 8 - 10 years ago I read an essay by a guy named Tony Schwarz (I think) who was writing about political advertising & how it really works. (He was a pofessional spin doctor for awhile.) Basically, he said there were some similarities between selling soda and politicians but there was one important difference. Unlike so-called brand loyalty with consumer products, political operatives know that voting behavior gets triggered a little differently. Everybody has a belief structure that gets built through life expeience, parental opinions, teachers' influence, books you've read, etc. and everybody has sections of that structure that act as hot buttons, ie move you to action. What the spin doctors try to do is not rationally argue the merits of the various public policy positions their candidates may hold but to hit the hot buttons of their supporters to get them riled enough to get off their ass to vote (or give $, etc.). <P>
IMHO, the Republicans are much better at this (Patriotism, family values, public support for religion, the alleged work ethic) than the Democrats (economic justice, inclusion of the Out groups in the mainstream, abortion rights, etc.). <P>
The fun/scary part of this (according to this guy) is that the reality of public policy can be completely contradictory to the rhetoric for a long time and people will still support the candidate/party that has pushed their hot buttons in the right way. <P>
Just give this model a little thought in how you got to where you are politically. <P>
PS Why do all these threads turn into sausage fests? Where are the dames? Props to Coco for starting this, though. <P>

You're only young once, but you can be immature forever. :-)

[The Jays]

if for whatever reason you are donw on your luck and need a helping hand, they should be there to help out.



No they shouldn't. Once you have someone helping you, you have someone to blame when it doesn't work out. If you are down on your luck, then you should do something to make your luck improve, on your own. Mommy isn't going to clean up your messes.

<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> F--- what you heard.</font>
<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> That cab has a dent in it.</font> [center]
[center]http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/jays777/rfsig.gif

[shamus mcfitzy]

We haven't had an effective president in a good fifty years, Reagan AND Clinton included


ding ding ding

all of our post-WWII presidents had to be half-presidents because of the cold war and their desire to be re-elected. I don't think that there will be another "great" president until the US is able to maintain some sort of neutrality in the world. Great men like Lincoln and FDR are dead.

I'd have to say that Nixon is our best living president...oh wait you say he's dead....check my basement!!!!

[TheMojoPin]

No they shouldn't. Once you have someone helping you, you have someone to blame when it doesn't work out. If you are down on your luck, then you should do something to make your luck improve, on your own. Mommy isn't going to clean up your messes.

There's such a thing as too much welfare, and then there's such a thing as hanging out your own people to dry. Sure, there are people who abuse the system, but for each of those, there's countless others working 2, 3 jobs just make rent and feed the family. Social and economic factors fluctuate too wildly to assume that a nonsensical "pull yourself up by the bootstraps!" mentality will effectively work for everyone. The answer isn't to do away with welfare, but to simply monitor it closely on a case to case basis. Of course, if we actually made an attempt to institute a halfway decent "living wage" system, welfare wouldn't even have to exist. The same goes for social security.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Orallo]

No they shouldn't. Once you have someone helping you, you have someone to blame when it doesn't work out. If you are down on your luck, then you should do something to make your luck improve, on your own. Mommy isn't going to clean up your messes.

TheJays, I hope you never need help for anything.

<IMG SRC="http://www.talktime.com/i/SIGPIC3.jpg">


WAYS TO SKIN A CAT #173: starving PCP -laden gerbils

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT #137: tweezers

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #12 Hydrochloric acid.

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #27 Use an electric belt sander.

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #4 Cattle prod set on "Ultra High".

WAYS TO SKIN A CAT: #42 Use a weedeater.

[TheMojoPin]

The liberal mentality is "it's NEVER my fault that I'm poor, it's someone else's"

Nonsense. There are millions of people in this country who will only be hired to work minimum wage jobs. And they should just have to suck it up and work 2, 3, even 4 jobs just because of who they are, where they live, what they look like, etc., etc.?

And it's hardly racial prejudice I'm talking about here, as that "white" people make up the the largest percentage of welfare recipients by far. The majority of welfare cases are working their asses off, yet are stuck in a continual cycle of almost-poverty. How are they supposed to just "get out of that themselves" when they are already working multiple jobs for employees who will only pay them the barest minimum? And those are the only jobs available to them based on who they are and/or where they live? How do you escape that?

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

Please see my post "Sarcasm" on "Ask the Horde King".

Gotcha!

Charter Member of Mojo Admiration Society

*WHEW!* Alright, your poster's back up on my wall...

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Zestie]

Wow! With all the fun & silliness that goes on with this board, the linguistic ability, debating skills and grasp of recent American history that eveyone has is awesome. <P>
My own .02: <P>
We have Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush (I), Clinton and Bush (II) as living Presidents. The mere fact this whole discussion really centers around just two of those tells me that history will judge BOTH Reagan and Clinton as

<IMG SRC="http://members.verizon.net/~vze27y2d/sig.gif">

I'm disrespectful to dirt! Can you see I am serious? Get out of my way, all of you! This is no place for loafers. Join me or die. Can you do any less?

[Zestie]

...cont'd from previous post...

living Presidents. The mere fact this whole discussion really centers around just two of those tells me that history will judge BOTH Reagan and Clinton as "great" Presidents.

Leaving both partisan politics and either right, left or anti-government leanings out of it, both men were human politicians, not gods. Both men had faults, both had scandals, and neither administration was devoid of mistakes, errors in judgement and questionable ethics.

Both men are similar in that they were both first and foremost great politicians. Each had great communication skills, both were leaders, both inspired and repelled great numbers and left few on the fence about them, and most importantly both men were the right men for the time.

Like him or not, Reagan came in to do what he said he would do and did it. After the malaise of the Carter years, his "American morning" presidency and bold challenge of the Soviets made him great.

The payoff took time money and a great dealing of suffering during his early years. And, yes, many forget that 80 to mid 83 were terrible years in this country. But like any giant object, countries and economies take time to turn around after they proceed heading down any direction.

Like it (or him) or not, Reagan will is/will be judged one of the great American presidents.

CLinton was also the right man for the time. Bush (I) enjoyed near unamimous popularity after his accomplishment with the Gulf War in 91 and managed to somehow disconnect from the American voter to the point that he lost the election in 92. Clinton found that connection, again through superior communication skills and by convincing the American people, that like him or not, agree with him or not, he meant what he said - just like Reagan had a decade earlier.

It's unfortunate that the Lewinsky scandal and subsequent impeachment will forever leave a blotch or asterisk on his presidency since his years in office were successful years. He may not have been responsible for the economic boon, but he didn't screw it up either and he managed to keep a steady, moderate course during a time when he recognized that there was no reason to create waves.

It's important to distinguish the man and the presidency. If you are going to look at "men" then I think Reagan kills Clinton. His vision, humor, ethics, compassion and character make him the better man. Clinton obviously had personal flaws but he also had many good, sincere qualities that won hearts and got him elected. Overall, Reagan wins by a landslide though.

Both administrations presided over very different economic and international situations. Both needed to respond to and create different stimuli to be effective. Both rose to the occasion. For example, yes, Clinton closed Reagan's deficits, but Clinton had the economy and tax revenues to do it. Reagan created them, but he had a deteriorated economy and the Soviets to deal with which both required deficit spending. The point is not so much what either man did, but that he did what he had to do given the cards dealt him, and ultimately both plays were good for the country.

Here too, I have to give it to Reagan. His moves required balls. His moves required action - unpopular action at that - just look at how he is still reviled 20 years after the fact. Clinton's was more of an autopilot presidency - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. This requires much less testicular fortitude to pull off than what Reagan had to do. Yes, Clinton didn't screw it up, but he also wasn't responsible for getting there in the first place.

So, I think Reagan wins overall as the greatest living President.

Briefly:

Ford: Handed the country in the middle of Nixon's mess but could have done so much more and missed the opportunity. Didn't fail, but didn't try either.

Carter: Good example of a great "man" and a horrible presidency. Let too much of the man (emotional, compassionate) get into the presidency which doomed his decisions.

Bush(I): Another decent "man" but poor politic

[Megadeth]

Clinton was a piece of crap.
In 1992 his entire campaign was based on 1) that famous clip of Bush saying "read my lips, no new taxes" 2) Healthcare.

What did he do?
His Healthcare plan failed horribly and he gave us the single biggest tax increase in American history.

[The Jays]

Was Clinton responsible for the popularity of La Bouche in the mid 90's? Cuz if he is, I'd throw my vote to him as the greatest living president. LA BOUCHE KICKS ASS!

<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> F--- what you heard.</font>
<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> That cab has a dent in it.</font> [center]
[center]http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/jays777/rfsig.gif

[Gvac]

I hope I know some of you in 10 or 15 years.

If you still have the same mindset, I'll REALLY feel sorry for you.

<img src=http://gvac.50megs.com/images/capsig.jpg>

[Recyclerz]

I loved when he was debating Jimmy Carter and the moderator tried to shut him up. Reagan was like I'm paying for this microphone damn it!

It was during the Republican primaries and he said it to Bob Dole.


You're only young once, but you can be immature forever. :-)

This message was edited by Recyclerz on 11-30-02 @ 7:21 PM

[Recyclerz]

Just look at Cambodia. The only man who could have turned those backwards people around was prevented by his own Congress. <P>
Pol Pot is blaming his failure on the Congress? <P>
<P>

You're only young once, but you can be immature forever. :-)

[Recyclerz]

I do in some cases too, but there are MANY Democrats who feel that people should be completely reliant upon the government. <P>
Name two. <P>
<P>
I'll spot you Al Sharpton, but he shouldn't really count.


You're only young once, but you can be immature forever. :-)

This message was edited by Recyclerz on 11-30-02 @ 7:27 PM

[Recyclerz]

Now back to Reagan and trickle down economics...the reason why it is greatly criticized is that social programs were cut. Reagan believed, as do most republicans, that people should be able to take care of themselves. <P> Doogie, Ironically, Reagan never wound up cutting welfare all that much, although there was much bellyaching at the time. Reaganomics (a less perjorative term than trickle down) wound up cutting taxes and, after talking about it a lot, not cutting government spending. (See David Stockman's book Triumph of Politics; Stockman was one of the idea guys for Reagan.)This led to the tremendous government deficits of the late eighties which were a time bomb that could have so damaged our economy that we really would be fucked, like Japan has been for the last ten years. <P> Those deficits were painfully corrected by Geo. Bush I breaking his no tax pledge and Bill Clinton & the Democrats raising the marginal rates again in 1993. I would and do argue that those tax increases corrected the fiscal imbalances in our economy, giving Greenspan the ability to use monetary policy that directly led to the prosperity of the '90's. <P> My complaint is that W is following in Reagan's footsteps and threatening to fuck up the economy for a generation by giving enormous tax breaks to his supporters, the very rich. <P>

You're only young once, but you can be immature forever. :-)

[TheMojoPin]

If you still have the same mindset, I'll REALLY feel sorry for you.

In what regards? You mean like we still judge politicians based on how they do the jobs they are elected to by the American public, or whether we judge them simply as "great men", "patriots", "snappy dressers" or of "fine character"? If I must choose, I'll stick with the former.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

Oh, and all you welfare-naysayers, have you ever been on welfare? Do you even know anyone on welfare? And no, the TV doesn't count, even if people said "WELFARE" really, really loud and nasty.

At my store, I am in charge of our receiving department. The supervisor who works just below me is named Luke. He is a Gulf War veteran, he is 34, and he is married. He never finished college, and as such, has found it nearly impossible to find a job in the Northern VA area for more than 20 to 25 grand a year, at best. He's studying for various computer certifications, but he's not the best with computers, so it's taken him quite some time to become certified in all the necessary fields. He currently works one fulltime job, another 24 hour a week a job, and another 10 hour a week job, all retail. His wife also works two part time jobs, one as an office clerk and another in retail, as she studies classes at the local community college. Up until a little more than a year ago, Luke and his wife were on welfare. For a good four years. And he should be deprived of this? Why, because he couldn't afford to go to college? The man's work ethic is through the roof, and he's a friggin' VETERAN. If you honestly believe he should have been forced to live in a near-poverty level just because he didn't have the resources to attend college, you're BEYOND stone-cold.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Megadeth]

My family was on welfare for about a year.

[HordeKing1]

Bush Jr. is the worst by far with Jimmy Carter very close behind. Reagan and Clinton equally bad for different reasons. Bush Sr was fair to middling, Nixon was the same. Ford was a joke.

Come to think of it, the last really good president we had was FDR.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[TheMojoPin]

My family was on welfare for about a year.

Then how could you possibly be opposed to the welfare system? Unless you think your family is a bunch of lazy douchebags...please explain.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[The Chairman]

WOW. Passion. Trenchant and well articulated views on both sides. But unfortunately I checked "Notify Me When Someone Replies" on this thread and my Inbox is filled! I suggest we pick one pro and one anti Reagan person. They have 100 words to summarize the views posted. Horde King Moderates. Then Superstar picks the winner and says either "Reagan Good" or "No Good" on the air."

<img src = http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/kaga.gif>
thanks ADF for the SigPic!!
I'll take that Chesterfield now...


This message was edited by Chairman_Kaga on 12-1-02 @ 1:38 AM

[Megadeth]

I'm not completely opposed to the welfare system.
As far as my family goes however, what can I say?
My parents should have stopped firing kids out left and right.How can anyone expect to have any sort of money if they have a shitload of other mouths to feed?

[TheMojoPin]

My parents should have stopped firing kids out left and right.How can anyone expect to have any sort of money if they have a shitload of other mouths to feed?

Heh, reminds of a Chris Rock bit..."a single mom on welfare working two jobs to feed her kids HATES a woman with 12 kids just picking up a government check! PUT THE DICK DOWN."

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Doogie]

Both administrations presided over very different economic and international situations. Both needed to respond to and create different stimuli to be effective. Both rose to the occasion. For example, yes, Clinton closed Reagan's deficits, but Clinton had the economy and tax revenues to do it. Reagan created them, but he had a deteriorated economy and the Soviets to deal with which both required deficit spending

Thank you zesty, that is the point I was trying to articulate but failed to at the moment. Reagan brought pride back to this country that had lost its way through the turbulent times of the late 60's and 1970's...

Come to think of it, the last really good president we had was FDR

HK, I must contest this...JFK was probably last great president. He pointed country towards a national goal...landing a man on the moon. And mankind has never been the same since, for better or for worse. Kennedy set a goal for a America to accomplish and they did more than just accomplish it, they surpassed it in more ways than one. I only wish a president would take a more pro-active role in the exploration of space that Kennedy did...America has lost its way, especially with this ISS (International Space Station)...for those of you who wish to debate me on this matter look for me at the X-mas party next week. Ill buy the pint and discuss space politics till your ears are blue

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This message was edited by Doogie76 on 12-1-02 @ 4:34 AM

[HordeKing1]

Kennedy's real accomplishment was the 1969 moon landing. Unfortunately this was not due to any vision on his part but out of a desire to beat the Godless Communists.

Remember, JFK brought the world closest to global thermonuclear anihilation than any president EVER. The nukes were already in the air when the planes were recalled. Scary shit. But he showed the Russians and Cubans who had the bigger dick. What an Asshole.



<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[Doogie]

HK-Every president has a dark side to his term, why FDR's dark side is that a large part of the "New Deal" was unconstitutional. Like I stated in an earlier post in the same thread. Hoover was criticized for not doing about the depression, HOWEVER Hoover did the legal constitutional route to recovery of the economy. Unfortunatly he was the wrong man at the wrong time...Roosevelt's "New Deal" was declared unconstitutional in several aspects due to its overstepping of bounds. And FDR pouted and tried to have the Supreme Court enlargened to get his way.

FDR also though feared the problems we face today...people becoming DEPENDENT on the federal government to help it out of every lil crisis. This was the one thing FDR feared the American people would rely on...that if there is a crisis or a problem, the federal government would bail people out of it. When in actuality it is the states responsibility. The younger Bush has intervened with his new educational goal for all Americans which is all well and good except for one problem...it isnt an issue the president needs to tackle legally. That is why the constitution has the 10th Amendment which says that any power not given to the federal government is reserved to the states (IE education)...

I went off on bit of a rant there and wanted to address your assessment of JFK. Yes Kennedy did almost bring us to the brink of war, yet it was his resolve that brought a peaceful conclusion to the matter, and also brought about the end of Nikita Kruschev's reign in the Soviet Union. Kennedy was a visionary and did see a way for America to prove its power outside of warfare...and that goal was "the landing of a man on the moon and returning him safely before the decade was over".

I was born after JFK and his brother Robert were shot, yet it still fills me with sadness when I see any reference to there assasinations recounted in any way on television. As a matter of fact in Tom Hanks' mini-series "From the Earth to the Moon" the episode dealing with '1968' shows Ted Kennedy giving Bobbies eulogy and it brings tears to my eyes. That and the imagry that is attached with it. But it also activates the imagniation and knowledge of what visonaries this man and his brother, John, were. They helped stir the emotions of people towards a common goal and provided ways for these goals to be carried out. Perhaps sir I am a bit prejuidiced in my assessment of the Kennedy's in that I see them being the only presidents who assented America's space program to the heights they have acheived. For in the words of the late Gus Grissom "the conquest of space is worht human sacrifice. For only man can provide an understanding for other men (In this ladies he meant Humans)" they can understand. Had Kennedy lived, he might not have of survived politically in the 1964 election. That is one of the "what if's" for us historians to debate (Personally I see him pulling it off again in 1964). I personally feel very strongly towards Jack Kennedy and the goals, asides from the space program, that he envisoned. Kennedy was more peaceable than people will give him credit for. Lets face the facts about Cuba: that was all Eisenhowers baby thrown on Kennedy's lap. He responded to it in the best way possible and at the same time proved the weakness of our Soviet adversaries in an indirect way. I wish to discuss JFK and NASA more with you hopefully at the X-Mas party. Should provide a great debate and great conversation as well...

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This message was edited by Doogie76 on 12-1-02 @ 5:19 AM

[Yerdaddy]

Yes Kennedy did almost bring us to the brink of war, yet it was his resolve that brought a peaceful conclusion to the matter
That and his back-door agreement to remove the intermediate-range missiles from Turkey, the knowledge that we retained a huge strategic nuclear advantage over the Soviets, (even without the missiles in Turkey), and that with the arrest of the highest ranking Soviet spy in Moscow on October 22, the Soviets had no idea how to bluff their way through the crisis. The Kennedys get credit for ignoring the military hawks on the Joint Chiefs of Staff who were urging an invasion of Cuba, considering that what they didn't know was that there were twice as many Soviet troops as they thought and that they had tactical nuclear weapons.

<img src="http://yerdaddy.homestead.com/files/pics/sigruby.jpg" >
It was a joke goddammit!

[furie]

i've lost track. Who won this debate?
Reagan-haters or Reagan-lovers?

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thanks adf!
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This message was edited by furie on 12-1-02 @ 10:17 AM

[RandomNY]

I think people who loved President TAFT won.

------------------------------
IT'S ABOOUTT GETTINGG GUYSSS LAAIIDD!!!!!--Lickass

Die of Disteria you pathetic hack.. AWFUL-- NORTON

[BrianTheBailBondsman]

(964) Reagan and Nixon ( he just got cought)By the way the Pres dont run the show its the Insurance co's. Lawyers etc

"Getting my 15 minutes of fame a few seconds at a time"

This message was edited by BrianTheBailBondsman on 12-1-02 @ 12:50 PM

[Doogie]

(964) Reagan and Nixon ( he just got cought)By the way the Pres dont run the show its the Insurance co's. Lawyers etc



In the words of the great Archibald Bunker...huh??

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ADF Fan since day one...this sig rocks!!!
"Who is more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?"-Obi Wan Kenobi
<marquee behavior=alternate>Founding Member RF.NET Jedi Council. 1/3 of WHAA</Marquee>

[NewYorkDragons80]

gorbachev didn't invade afghanistan. I don't believe he became general secretary until 1985.
Did I say Gorbachev started the Afghan Invasion? Soviet support in Afghanistan really goes back to before His Majesty Mohammed Zahir Shah abdicated to his cousin Mohammed Daoud. The King made Daoud his Prime Minister in the hopes to appease the Russians and keep Afghani neutrality because the king himself was one who tended to side with the Americans. The plan eventually backfried and Daoud started unequally tipping Afghan support towards the Soviets. While the King furiously tried to appease Americans with free elections for an Afghan legislature and the end of government restrictions on womens' rights, Dauod fought to make Afghanistan more Stalinist. Finally, while His Majesty was seeking medical treatment in Rome, Daoud staged a coup. Rather than see any bloodshed among Afghans, Mohammed Zahir Shah abdicated to his cousin in 1973. Daoud ended neutrality and traded exclusively with the Soviets. After Daoud's regime fell and he was assassinated, Soviet troops soon moved in to prop up a weak Marxist regime in 1978 (Daoud Kahn was probably assassinated for his tirade in which he allegedly got into a shouting match with Brezhnev about letting Afghanistan decide its own future). So, Gorbachev did not start the invasion, which has a complicated past to follow, but he obviously allowed it to continue for another 4 years.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[NewYorkDragons80]

Bush Jr. is the worst by far with Jimmy Carter very close behind. Reagan and Clinton equally bad for different reasons. Bush Sr was fair to middling, Nixon was the same. Ford was a joke.
Well, I have a big problem with the Bush Republicans for stopping McCain from becoming president (among other reasons), but I don't think we should really judge him yet. It's a little early. Jimmy Carter is such a nice guy that I feel bad to tell him what a bad job he did to his face. Clinton is SO MUCH worse than Reagan. OF course Reagan had shortcomings, but much much fewer than any other administration. I would not put Clinton in the same league as Reagan. Ford was a joke, but to his credit he inherited a bad situation and had a Congress that was out to get him (And the people of Southeast Asia). As the son of a Vietnam veteran, I can't overlook how well Nixon handled the situation in Sotheast Asia. He was an outstanding foreign president, but unfortunately he had a lot to learn domestically. Bush Sr. was out of touch and made promises he could not keep, but still a so-so president.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 12-1-02 @ 7:10 PM

[NewYorkDragons80]

Heh, reminds of a Chris Rock bit..."a single mom on welfare working two jobs to feed her kids HATES a woman with 12 kids just picking up a government check! PUT THE DICK DOWN."
Black people don't give a fuck about welfare, but Niggers are shaking in their boots.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[NewYorkDragons80]

Remember, JFK brought the world closest to global thermonuclear anihilation than any president EVER.
I'm not the biggest JFK fan, even though he was the 1st Catholic president. However, I think Kruschev bears some responsibilities for those nukes being there in the first place.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[TheMojoPin]

I'm not the biggest JFK fan, even though he was the 1st Catholic president. However, I think Kruschev bears some responsibilities for those nukes being there in the first place.

Plus it's one of the few cases in the latter half of the 20th Century where America stood their ground on foreign issues and didn't come across as a bully. That standoff took some balls on Kennedy's part, in not only standing up the Soviets, but to his own millitary advisors.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[HordeKing1]

It's only serendipity that the Russians backed down in face of a "leader" that brought us the Bay of Pigs fiasco.

The covert invasion of Cuba was a foreign policy disaster, called by some historians "the perfect failure."

JFK had two great accomplishments.
1. He managed to hold onto the presidency while being severely disabled.
2. He banged Marilyn Monroe

<img src="http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking1">

[NewYorkDragons80]

I don't know what side you are on as far as the Bay of Pigs goes. Personally, I am one of those who thinks he did not do enough there, but judging by your posts on the Cuban Missile Crisis, I am going to assume that you don't think he should have gone in at all.

As far as the Cuban Missile Crisis goes, Kennedy has been portrayed as the sensible moderate. While generals were goading him to bomb Cuba, he ultimately decided NOT to make rash decisions. Where did you hear that Kennedy wanted to act with force?

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 12-3-02 @ 5:10 PM

[nealcassady]

"There's no denying Nixon's accomplishments overseas. Never before did the United States have a ballsier president. Just look at Cambodia. The only man who could have turned those backwards people around was prevented by his own Congress."

Failing to be truthful to both the American people and the U.S. Congress, the Nixon administration circumvented the domestic institutional restraints that are fundamental in a representative democracy. The bombing of the Cambodian countryside (1968-1973) and the introduction of U.S. ground forces (1970) are criminal acts in that they were not preceded by a declaration of war nor were they approved of by the Cambodian government (which was a neutral state). One of the most prominent American scholars on the Cambodian "issue", William Shawcross notes "none of the Congressional committees, whose duty it is to recommend appropriations and thus enable the Congress to fulfill its constitutional function of authorizing and funding war," were notified of the President's decision (Sideshow, p. 29). If our elected leaders are able to conduct massive clandestine military operations without even Congressional oversight, the rule of law is replaced by the rule of force. Nixon's actions resulted in the death of thousands of Cambodians and completely destabilized the Cambodian governement. The invasion of Cambodia by U.S. ground forces coupled with continuos air bombardment destroyed any semblance of a viable government under Prime Minister Lon Nol. The Khmer Rouge were provided with a wonderful opportunity to take power and create more death and destruction.

Before you spew racist generalizations ("turn those backward people around") remember that they didn't come to our country and plant mines and kill innocent people from above... we did.


"Don't try"
-On Gravestone of Charles Bukowski

"Withdrawing in disgust is not the same thing as apathy"
-Slacker

[TheMojoPin]

I don't know what side you are on as far as the Bay of Pigs goes. Personally, I am one of those who thinks he did not do enough there, but judging by your posts on the Cuban Missile Crisis, I am going to assume that you don't think he should have gone in at all.

The missile crisis was alegitimate reason to invade Cuba. Fortunately, he did not. Us invading Cuba simply because they're communists...well, come on now. "The Domino Effect" is kinda hard when you're an island and China and the USSR are across a couple of oceans.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[NewYorkDragons80]

Before you spew racist generalizations ("turn those backward people around")
Do you know how Lon Nol's brother Lon Nil died? Cambodian communists decapitated and cannibalized him. I certainly would not make the mistake of calling them a "forwards" people

You forgot to mention the the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong were using Cambodia. You forgot to mention that Cambodia was NOT neutral when we invaded. Lon Nol's coup over the Cambodian monarchy made Cambodia an ally of the US and an enemy of communism. You also forgot that the Khmer Rouge was supplied by China, the Soviet Union, and North Vietnam. It seems that you are perfectly fine with the communists invading a neutral country, but if the Americans invade a country that was an ally at the time, they are violating international law. Asians and the Eastern hemisphere in general tend to fight wars to win any way they can. This meant using Laos and Cambodia as major outposts of activity, knowing that most American presidents would not dare conduct military operations in a neutral country (Notice I said most presidents.) However, if we were ever going to put a stop to attacks on South Vietnam, an invasion of Cambodia was necessary. Why were the bombings of Cambodia stepped up? Because Congress prevented Nixon from the further use of ground troops. People like you who were against the invasion of Cambodia bear an indirect responsibility for the victory of the Khmer Rouge.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[Megadeth]

Just saw on Fox and Friends that Ronald Reagan was voted the most popular living American.
He was followed by Jimmy Carter, Colin Powell, "My Dad", and Bill Clinton.

[JerryTaker]

My parents should have stopped firing kids out left and right.How can anyone expect to have any sort of money if they have a shitload of other mouths to feed?


But guess what, this is <I>exactly</I> what your conservatives want: lots of poor people having lots of kids, because poor desolate people only helps to feed the Republicans' biggest supporters, the Catholic Church. That's why you Right-wingers support disgusting hypocritical organizations like "right to life"

And all you republicans who say that you support people getting along without government, I would love to, without having to pay those rediculous taxes, without having to deal with their religous organizations pulling my favorite radio shows off the air, without having to worry about them drafting me or my family to fight wars caused by our countinued dependance on oil, because the Right has shot down every alternative. I would <I>love</I> to not have the Federal government involved in my life, without the Conservative trend of take and take and take....

I'm sorry I've drifted off the original presidential topic, but this blind following of Republican ideals on this thread without realizing their consequenses is making me sick...

Like the politician we are told that we choose to put on a podium every 4 years as "leader" of our country actually makes a lick of difference anyway....

<IMG SRC="http://afs30.njit.edu/~gsm2321/Angelsig2.gif">

<marquee width=300>I look around my room is filled with candles; Each one a story but they end the same. I'll hide away in here the law will never find me; The walls will tell the story of my pain</marquee>

This message was edited by JerryTaker on 12-4-02 @ 11:30 AM

[NewYorkDragons80]

That's why you Right-wingers support disgusting hypocritical organizations like "right to life"
How is right to life hypocritical?

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[TheMojoPin]

How is right to life hypocritical?

He explained exactly what he was referring to. It's hypocritical when many staunch conservatives/Republicans are "pro-life", but then are so staunchly anti-welfare, often for reasons that the people on welfare are "having too many kids to support". "Right to life", maybe, but it's sure gonna be a shitty one.

And shouldn't right to life-ers be against the death penalty? I'm baffled.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

Do you know how Lon Nol's brother Lon Nil died? Cambodian communists decapitated and cannibalized him. I certainly would not make the mistake of calling them a "forwards" people

Right, so that accurately symbolizes the entire nation. Man, I was lucky to have lived in SE Asia and not have been eaten to death. *PHEW!*

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[NewYorkDragons80]

If you talk to most pro-lifers they are against the death penalty.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[NewYorkDragons80]

Certainly not, but it shows that the foundation of the country needed to be changed.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[TheMojoPin]

If you talk to most pro-lifers they are against the death penalty.

Unfortunately, not around here. We've got conservatives up the ying-yang clamoring to just string up the snipers NOW.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

Certainly not, but it shows that the foundation of the country needed to be changed.

But we only bombed them. And other than that, we were just going to invade them. And not even for the long haul, just to invade North Vietnam. That's change, but just because there would be almost nothing left standing afterwards.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Megadeth]

Like liberals are "pro choice"
They don't want to give you a choice other than there's!!!

[TheMojoPin]

Like liberals are "pro choice"
They don't want to give you a choice other than there's!!!

He's actually kind of right. There are far too many liberals today who are just as imovable, stubborn and ignorant as hardline conservatives. If you're not open to change or being wrong at least some of the time, you're bound to come off as an idiot all of the time.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Captain Rooster]

Unborn babies are innocent lives with a plethora of potential.

That's the main difference.



<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/roosterjet.gif>

[NewYorkDragons80]

But we only bombed them. And other than that, we were just going to invade them. And not even for the long haul, just to invade North Vietnam. That's change, but just because there would be almost nothing left standing afterwards.
Well that's speculation. My speculation is that if we were to properly stabilize Lon Nol's government (As well as Saigon and South Vietanm in general), Cambodia and South Vietnam could have potentially been strong nations like South Korea, the Phillipines, or Taiwan. Obviously there are differences in situations (Relatively homogenous societies and easier geographically to defend in the latter countries,) but it was certainly doable.

As for invading North Vietnam, I don't think it would have automatically brought about Chinese support. Hanoi tended more towards Moscow and Stalinism which caused a rift between North Vietnam and China. Also, I am not so sure that the people of North Vietnam would tolerate Chinese intervention in their land. Again, it's all speculation.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[NewYorkDragons80]

Unborn babies are innocent lives with a plethora of potential.

That's the main difference.
Rooster, when you say something like that, you run the risk of being called anti-choice or worse, being lumped with those who bomb abortion clinics. I am pro-life, but I am also against the death penalty and support gay marriage, adoption, and military service.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[Gvac]

Just in case anyone hasn't noticed, welfare reform has been a tremendous success.

Conservatives aren't anti-welform, they're anti-making people dependent on the government.

Conservatives want everyone on welfare to get off as soon as possible and become self-reliant. Liberals seem to want people on welfare to remain there.

We'll also never understand the liberal position that the solution to poverty is abortion. I guess to hell with helping people better themselves, huh?

Pure insanity.

<img src=http://gvac.50megs.com/images/gvacxmas.jpg>





This message was edited by Gvac on 12-4-02 @ 7:38 PM

[Captain Rooster]

[Rooster] being lumped with those who bomb abortion clinics


Dragons, budday, please do not say that about me. I just wanted to point out a difference between murderers and unborn children. I have dedicated my lfe to the lives of young people and I have seen their potential tapped and lost.

I would not kill a woman or a doctor who has been involved with abortion. I am a philanthropist at heart. I just get very upset when I hear of a woman aborting a child. I think they both lose in the end. Emotionally and physically.

Please, do not insult me. You know from my record that I am far from an extremist or an ignorant zealot.



<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/roosterjet.gif>
ADF fan since day one.

[NewYorkDragons80]

Whoa, Rooster. I was agreeing with you budday. What I meant was that you saying you are pro-life is a bold statement and takes convictions because the pro-choice side sometimes lumps you with extremists. In my post I said that I am also pro-life. I was not trying to put you down.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 12-4-02 @ 9:45 PM

[Captain Rooster]

I was not trying to put you down.



Noted. I am proud to say I am pro-life. My sister was unable to adopt an American baby because there were not any available when she was looking. She adopted three Korean children and they are the loves of my life. My angels. I have seen how she prayed and prayed for even the ability to conceive a child. I question why a woman cant keep the child has conceived. Why can't she allow the life to be brought into the world and graciously delivered to the lives of families looking for a child?

Ok, done venting.


<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/roosterjet.gif>
ADF fan since day one.




This message was edited by LTRooster on 12-4-02 @ 9:51 PM

[Megadeth]

"They don't want to give you a choice other than there's!!!"

Oops, that would be "theirs"

[Megadeth]

Hehe, you really have to laugh at the "Rush vs. Tom Daschle" thing. I'll take Rush's side any day over that fuck. Rush even did a bunch of bits making fun of him.

"Um, hello, yes, you're on the, uh, Tom Daschle show. Uh, oh, we have no callers."

[The Jays]

We'll also never understand the liberal position that the solution to poverty is abortion.


...were you listening to Rush today, by any chance?

<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> F--- what you heard.</font>
<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> That cab has a dent in it.</font> [center]
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[TheMojoPin]

As for invading North Vietnam, I don't think it would have automatically brought about Chinese support.

I agree with you 100% percent on this. There was no love lost between China and Vietnam. We drove ourselves crazy worrying about a possible enemy who might have actually aided us. China certainly didn't want to be sandwiched between the Soviets and a few of their allies.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

We'll also never understand the liberal position that the solution to poverty is abortion.

To answer one overtly incorrect blanket-generalization with yet another overtly incorrect blanket-generalization contributes nothing. My assertation on the matter is that many (Not all or most) abortions often are reflective of mothers in poverty or near-poverty situations. It's a sad state of affairs, that unfortunately leads many people to feel abortion is their only solution. I think I've implied clearly that I only think welfare is a temporary solution in ALL cases, but I certainly do think its existence is necessary. And, if you think about it, better managed welfare could actually lead to there being LESS abortions.

So ultimately, I'm all for reorganizing and streamlining welfare. But too many people go into it with a "we need to to make cuts here, here, and HERE" mentality, and nothing is really fixed.

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 12-5-02 @ 12:22 AM

[JerryTaker]

I find it interesting that people felt the only part of my earlier post to disagree with was the abortion mention. I take it that means you all concede my other points to be correct :-)

Republicans are not interested in people "fending for themselves" they're interested in a well - divided world of "Haves" and "Have nots" where the "haves" stay that way from feeding off the "have - nots" The poor schlub gets bombarded with taxes,while what's left of his paycheck goes into buying gasoline, or paying inflated prices to monopolistic companies, and he also puts money into what little false "hope" is fed to him by churches and the lottery, and in the end, the "Haves" decide there needs to be war, and sends that man off to die... some life, and some independance from the government, huh?

Now, bear in mind, I'm no champion of Liberals, they're scumbags, too, but it's very "in" to bash liberals these days, and I beleive that's a dangerous practice for us as a country.

We've lost a lot in the past few years, the illusion that we have some say in our government, the financial hub of our country, our once booming economy, our interest in technology, our sense of security, and 3000 of our own. We need to stop looking to blame the guy on the other side of the street, and worry about not losing anymore, at least not too soon...

<IMG SRC="http://afs30.njit.edu/~gsm2321/Angelsig2.gif">

<marquee width=300>I look around my room is filled with candles; Each one a story but they end the same. I'll hide away in here the law will never find me; The walls will tell the story of my pain</marquee>

This message was edited by JerryTaker on 12-5-02 @ 1:15 AM

[TheMojoPin]

Now, bear in mind, I'm no champion of Liberals, they're scumbags, too, but it's very "in" to bash liberals these days, and I beleive that's a dangerous practice for us as a country.

We've lost a lot in the past few years, the illusion that we have some say in our government, the financial hub of our country, our once booming economy, our interest in technology, our sense of security, and 3000 of our own. We need to stop looking to blame the guy on the other side of the street, and worry about not losing anymore, at least not too soon...

Man, all of THIS is exactly what I feel. But the rest of that post I left out was just more unecessary finger-pointing and namecalling. Keep the peanut butter out of my chocolate, dammit!

<img src=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/themojopin2.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Megadeth]

Now, bear in mind, I'm no champion of Liberals, they're scumbags, too, but it's very "in" to bash liberals these days, and I beleive that's a dangerous practice for us as a country.


I know what you mean, but conservatives have always been ripped on for the past 30 plus years. The radical liberals at PETA and NOW give the people who just lean to the left a bad name.

[A.J.]

a well - divided world of "Haves" and "Have nots" where the "haves" stay that way from feeding off the "have - nots"


The "haves" feed off the "have nots"? Then why are my taxes paying for social programs for the poor?

<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/ajdcsig.jpg">

A Skidmark production.

[JerryTaker]

The "haves" feed off the "have nots"? Then why are my taxes paying for social programs for the poor?


Because the big Corporation that just absorbed another company and put hundreds of people out of work aren't made to...

Here's an even better answer. I'll assume from your complaint that you fall into the "middle class" which is the bane of the Conservative party, that's why you're taxed so much. you're being forced to either find a way to make a lot more money, ar get taxed right into the poorhouse. Do you live in the Ivory tower, or are you standing outside, hoping for scraps? Both parties do this in their own way, by the way...

And if you really believe that a good portion of your paycheck is going anywhere <I>Other</I> than the policicians and their lobbyists' pockets, I've got a few bridges you might be interested in....

And as a counter-liberal point, it's too bad when your money <I>does</I> go to social programs, It always goes to the wrong ones... (and why do I get the feeling that that last sentence will be the only one that gets quoted?)

And Mojo, I understand it's fingerpointing rhetoric, but like I said, the current trend of blind conservatism, without a few counterpoints and a realization that the Republicans don't have the answer to everything and the Liberals aren't all tree-hugging hippies, is a <I>very</I> dangerous mindset for the future of this great country

<IMG SRC="http://afs30.njit.edu/~gsm2321/Angelsig2.gif">

<marquee width=300>I look around my room is filled with candles; Each one a story but they end the same. I'll hide away in here the law will never find me; The walls will tell the story of my pain</marquee>

[NewYorkDragons80]

And all you republicans who say that you support people getting along without government, I would love to, without having to pay those rediculous taxes, without having to deal with their religous organizations pulling my favorite radio shows off the air, without having to worry about them drafting me or my family to fight wars caused by our countinued dependance on oil, because the Right has shot down every alternative.
Since you issued a challenge, I will meet it.

1. You brought up "rediculous taxes." Mention a few "rediculous taxes," and I will tell you if I agree or disagree with these taxes, no matter how "rediculous" they might be.

2. As for the "religous organizations pulling my favorite radio shows off the air," did Bill O'Donohue hand Opie and Anthony their respective pink slips, or was it Infinity Broadcasting? Is there more than one show that more than one religious organization pulled off the air, or did you mean to say "I am upset that the Catholic League contributed to the Opie and Anthony show being removed from the airwaves."? If you want to talk about the right and the left, what Bill O'Donohue and his organization did was very much a Leftist action. He, along with a sizable amount of others, was upset with the way representatives of a corporation behaved, so he organized a successful protest campaign to purge Infinity Broadcasting of those responsible.

3. In regards to "without having to worry about them drafting me or my family to fight wars caused by our countinued dependance on oil," we have fought 1, arguably 2 military conflicts for oil and each was in the 1990s. Mind you that neither the Liberation of Kuwait, nor Operation Restore Hope used a draft. In fact, the United States has not drafted a young man for battle for over 3 decades.

4. Finally, you said "the Right has shot down every alternative," and I couldn't agree more. We need to exploit the resources of clean renewable energy more than any other type of energy. Personally, I am partial to Wind, Solar and Geothermal Energy.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[Megadeth]

without having to pay those rediculous taxes


How would Republicans be the cause of your ridiculious taxes?
Republicans are all about lowering them.

[shamus mcfitzy]

Now, bear in mind, I'm no champion of Liberals, they're scumbags, too, but it's very "in" to bash liberals these days, and I beleive that's a dangerous practice for us as a country.


just give socialism a chance

anyway, this seems weird that there are so many conservatives posting. Didn't Bush get like 20% of the presidential vote up here in New York? Yet i'd say 60% of the posts are from more conservative people

[NewYorkDragons80]

Well, I'm a moderate. Just because someone might be conservative on one issue doesn't mean that they are a conservative in general.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[The Jays]

Now, bear in mind, I'm no champion of Liberals, they're scumbags, too, but it's very "in" to bash liberals these days, and I beleive that's a dangerous practice for us as a country.


....but there are isn't one good liberal around at all...

<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> F--- what you heard.</font>
<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> That cab has a dent in it.</font> [center]
[center]http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/jays777/mementochristmas.gif

[Megadeth]

I wouldn't identify myself as anything.
I'm extremely conservative on some things, but on other's I'd be considered a radical leftist.

[NewYorkDragons80]

it's very "in" to bash liberals these days
If you will excuse me, I am going to go watch Friends, drive my SUV, drink some Starbucks, and if there's any time left, I will bash some liberals.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[TheMojoPin]

drive my SUV, drink some Starbucks

Because only liberals like giant, dickweed cars (Really goes along with their crazy environtment bunkum) and ass-awful coffee. No, my friend, the people that love these things cover all politcal affiliations. We call them "douchebags". And "Friends" is (same)sex-crazy, but set in an all-white NYC. So both sides are happy.

<img src=http://home.ix.netcom.com/~camman/_uimages/mojopin3.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[NewYorkDragons80]

Actually, I was trying to name trendy "in" things to go along with the other "in" thing, which is bashing liberals :)

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

[Donnielimes]

I think Reagan was the first president I ever voted for . Hindsight being 20/20 I dont know what I was thinking but 'not for nothing' it turned out for the best.

"Good Times/Noodle Salad, Thats my story"

[TheMojoPin]

Actually, I was trying to name trendy "in" things to go along with the other "in" thing, which is bashing liberals

Touche. But I still stand by my assertion that fans of Starbucks, SUV's and "Friends" are douchebags to the max.

<img src=http://home.ix.netcom.com/~camman/_uimages/mojopin3.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 12-9-02 @ 1:27 AM

[Megadeth]

Starbuck's coffee sucks. Dunkin Donuts is where it's at.

[JerryTaker]

what Bill O'Donohue and his organization did was very much a Leftist action.

Of course a right wing organization will pull a leftist way of doing things when it suits them, then they'll condemn the left for doing the same thing the next day, that's how politics works in this country, and it's sickening...

we have fought 1, arguably 2 military conflicts for oil and each was in the 1990s.


However, these genocidal psychos in the middle east retain all their money and power, and continue to be a threat to the world because rich countries like us continue to funnel them money, that they, in turn, use to attack us...

Mind you that neither the Liberation of Kuwait, nor Operation Restore Hope used a draft. In fact, the United States has not drafted a young man for battle for over 3 decades.

Until we start sending soldiers into Baghdad and they start dissapearing, when our soldiers actually start suffering casualties caused by the other side, we'll see who gets the call to go to his death, by our Republican government who wants us to make it on our own....

How would Republicans be the cause of your ridiculious taxes?
Republicans are all about lowering them.

This was always the biggest crock, I don't make enough money for the republicans to lower my taxes, they keep screaming about the flat tax, which is 30% of my paycheck and .0005% of the Oil lobby CEO's, who get it all back eventually, trust me...

The republicans were all about cutting the Capital gains when the stock market was a rich man's game, and where'd that go?

just give socialism a chance

Unfortunately this isn't Gulliver's Travels, Socialism won't work here, (the planet Earth, not just the US) because you'll never find someone without greed to be in power...

....but there are isn't one good liberal around at all...


This is some of the dangerous ideas that we're teaching people that I'm talking about. Now I don't want a completely liberal government either, because if I have to pay the government, I don't want that money thrown away, either. But if we all take on this attitude, there'd be no birth control, no healthcare, a very strict division of class, where you either live in mansions or shit, and we lose all our freedoms that don't suit the church. That's why we can't dismiss liberals...

Starbuck's coffee sucks. Dunkin Donuts is where it's at.

Well, Megadeth, at least we can agree on <I>something</I>...

<IMG SRC="http://afs30.njit.edu/~gsm2321/Angelsig2.gif">

<marquee width=300>I look around my room is filled with candles; Each one a story but they end the same. I'll hide away in here the law will never find me; The walls will tell the story of my pain</marquee>

This message was edited by JerryTaker on 12-9-02 @ 2:55 PM

[Megadeth]

People who make under $30,000 a year don't pay any Federal taxes. I'm sick of hearing how taxes screw them over.

[silera]

I'll decide what party to be in once I make enough money for it to matter.

Either way, whoever I vote for, I get fucked over.

I'm too rich for tax help for the poor and too poor for tax breaks for the rich.


<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif

<font size=3><font color=red>I can't stand myself either.</font></font></center>
<font color=white>

[CaptClown]

just give socialism a chance

If and when I bust my hump it will be for me and mine. If the rest of society benefits from it then that is a plus.

Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army

[NewYorkDragons80]

we'll see who gets the call to go to his death, by our Republican government who wants us to make it on our own....
The last Republican who started drafting people for war was Lincoln.

Of course a right wing organization will pull a leftist way of doing things when it suits them, then they'll condemn the left for doing the same thing the next day, that's how politics works in this country, and it's sickening...
What makes it especially sickening is that both sides are guilty of it.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1

This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 12-9-02 @ 5:37 PM

[TheMojoPin]

People who make under $30,000 a year don't pay any Federal taxes. I'm sick of hearing how taxes screw them over.

What? That's insane. Once you hit about 16 grand a year you start paying federal.

<img src=http://home.ix.netcom.com/~camman/_uimages/mojopin3.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

What makes it especially sickening is that both sides are guilty of it.

Nice. He's so right I'll just second it with a big ol' "SHAZAAAAAM!!!"

<img src=http://home.ix.netcom.com/~camman/_uimages/mojopin3.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Yerdaddy]

People who make under $30,000 a year don't pay any Federal taxes. I'm sick of hearing how taxes screw them over.
The federal tax rate for a single person making between $26,250 and $63,550 is 27%. Only those with incomes below $6,000 are exempt from federal taxes.

***RANT ALERT***

it's very "in" to bash liberals these days
It's not just that it's in to bash liberals, it's become the foundation of the conservative ideology. It used to be that conservatism was based on the idea that tradition was the best judge of what is right and wrong, but since the embarrassment of opposing the civil rights movement and defending segregation, conservatism has turned to blaming liberals for every problem and using articles of faith, (sybolic patriotism and metaphors like "family values"), to claim some appearance of moral high ground. They reject public debate in favor of controlled platforms for their own views of things, (for example, main sources of conservative opinion are pundits like Limbaugh and Bill O'Riely, who carefully control the debates on their shows by shouting down their guests, and never participating in debate forums that they can control). Conservatism has abandoned the use of objective data in favor of opinions and editorializing by like-minded people. They have created tools for dismissing logic and raw data by demonizing mainstream media and higher education as bastions of liberalism, (rarely using any evidence beyond anecdotes and elaborations on circumstantial evidence). They reject complexity in favor of "common sense" and "traditional values", which keeps them from addressing complex issues with anything other than reducing them to all or nothing, black and white anecdotes, (for example, poverty is always the result of laziness and liberals wanting people to be dependent on government, and their ONLY solution is to give more money to large companies and the rich because they "create jobs". In 1999 when Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan testified that the unemployment rate was becoming "dangerously low", and if it continued to drop the result would be inflation and recession. Conservatives never changed their rhetoric about "job creation" and "welfare dependence", etc.).

Conservativism has become an ideology that rejects the fact that a world of 6 billion people is complex. It is the politics of self-interest - the simplest of political theory that "if everyone were just like me, then everything would be allright". Because that theory doesn't stand up to the reality that the world is complex and that problems have to be addressed directly in order to be solved or improved, and that sacrafices might have to be made in order to serve America as a whole, conservatives have learned one powerful all-purpose tool to maintain political power: blame and demonize their oponents, liberals. Unfortunately, this strategy has proved to be very effective for the last several decades.

I do think that conservatism is a valuable political ideology that we would be worse off without. I also think that liberalism is full of ass-whacks that are just as self-richeous and deluded as their conservative counterparts. But I think that liberalism is still more grounded in reality, and thus more valuable as an ideology, because it is capable of accepting complexity and address issues directly rather than assuming that they will be solved by social uniformity.

I also think one of the worst effects of the loss of traditional conservatism and it's failure to adapt to changing realities is that the two ideologies are more confrontational than they have been in the past. Less honest dialogue means more people's time and energy is spent blaming the other and less time finding the truth that usually lies in the middle. It has diminished the "marketplace of ideas" that the world once admired in America more than in any other country. Now, it seems that America is right because it has the biggest military and biggest economy, and the value of finding the truth and thus the best solution fo

[Gvac]

Yerdaddy - I have no clue where you got your definition of "conservative", but you couldn't be more off base.

And before you accuse them of being against the civil rights movement, check your facts. It was most vehemently opposed by southern Democrats.



<img src=http://gvac.50megs.com/images/gvacxmas.jpg>

Happy Holidays to one and all!

[Megadeth]

That's not what I've heard. I heard it was $30,000

[Yerdaddy]

And before you accuse them of being against the civil rights movement, check your facts. It was most vehemently opposed by southern Democrats.
The Democratic party was the conservative party until the Civil Rights Movement. Kennedy began the switch in ideological affilliation of the parties by supporting the Civil Rights movement in the 1960 election. Since then, nearly all of the "Dixiecrats" have switched to the Republican party. In other words, the Southern Democrats of the Civil Rights era were conservatives. Most Southern Democrats still are conservatives.
That's not what I've heard. I heard it was $30,000
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0106989.html

<img src="http://yerdaddy.homestead.com/files/pics/sigelvis.jpg" >
It was a joke goddammit!

[A.J.]

Kennedy began the switch in ideological affilliation of the parties by supporting the Civil Rights movement in the 1960 election. Since then, nearly all of the "Dixiecrats" have switched to the Republican party. In other words, the Southern Democrats of the Civil Rights era were conservatives. Most Southern Democrats still are conservatives.


True but the origins actually begin with FDR and the New Deal.

<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/ajdcsig.jpg">

A Skidmark production.

[Yerdaddy]

True but the origins actually begin with FDR and the New Deal.
I was thinking that, but trying to keep it simple.

AJ, you get my RFMail couple days ago?
<img src="http://yerdaddy.homestead.com/files/pics/sigelvis.jpg" >
It was a joke goddammit!

This message was edited by Yerdaddy on 12-9-02 @ 10:04 PM

[Dewey]

Ronald Reagan's Presidency: GOOD!

Bill Clinton's Presidency: NO GOOD!

<IMG SRC="http://www.agw-werbeartikel.de/images/easy-rider.jpg"><br>"Still searching for America."

[A.J.]

AJ, you get my RFMail couple days ago?


Yes I did. I'm trying to find that article for you and let me know if you want to meet up sometime.

<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/ajdcsig.jpg">

A Skidmark production.

[Megadeth]

They left so many storylines open. The FBI investigation, and everyone just forgot that Ralph ever disapeared. Why the hell did they show those crackheads in that one episode? What was the point of introducing AJ's girlfriend? You would have thought that they'd make more of a deal about Junior being on trial for his life. Bobby B.'s wife dying was pretty pointless as well.

[Yerdaddy]

They left so many storylines open. The FBI investigation, and everyone just forgot that Ralph ever disapeared. Why the hell did they show those crackheads in that one episode? What was the point of introducing AJ's girlfriend? You would have thought that they'd make more of a deal about Junior being on trial for his life. Bobby B.'s wife dying was pretty pointless as well.
I stand corrected.

<img src="http://yerdaddy.homestead.com/files/pics/sigelvis.jpg" >
It was a joke goddammit!

[Recyclerz]

Ronald Reagan's Presidency: GOOD! Bill Clinton's Presidency: NO GOOD! <P>
Still taking that loss to Truman kinda hard, aren't ya guy? <P>
<P>

You're only young once, but you can be immature forever. :-)

[Megadeth]

They left so many storylines open. The FBI investigation, and everyone just forgot that Ralph ever disapeared. Why the hell did they show those crackheads in that one episode? What was the point of introducing AJ's girlfriend? You would have thought that they'd make more of a deal about Junior being on trial for his life. Bobby B.'s wife dying was pretty pointless as well.

What the fuck is wrong with this piece of shit message board!?!?!?!?
I posted that in the Sopranos thread, and it popped up here!!!!
What the fuck????

[NewYorkDragons80]

What the fuck is wrong with this piece of shit message board!?!?!?!?
I posted that in the Sopranos thread, and it popped up here!!!!
What the fuck????
Way to ruin a good thread :)

"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur

"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer

"Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.
-Romans 12:1