Spirituality and Religion

[sunndoggy8]

Should a person have some sort of religion/spirituality in their life to truly lead a happy one? Or can an individual go without having any sort of religious or spiritual and still be content and even happy?

<IMG SRC="http://home.att.net/~sunndoggy8/sunnysig1.jpg" width=300 height=80>

<font color="#0F00CD">~~~~"The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool."-Almost Famous~~~~</font color="#0F00CD">

[HordeKing1]

SUNNDOGGY8 - I have to preface my comments by mentioning that I was formerly religious but no longer am. I'm an atheist who after consideration and careful review of the available evidence can no longer conceive of the existence of god(s).

As such, you will not hear many arguments from me positing that religion has much value other than a means of scaring people into obeying a set of man made ethics (sometimes not a bad thing) and causing division and strife throughout the world. (A bad thing indeed). More people have been killed in the name of one god or another than for any other reason.

Religion is a valuable crutch for some people, something to rely on at times of need. A woman killed her 5 kids? Must be part of a master plan. Your kid is dying of leukemia? God must want his little angel back.

The phrasing of your question and the use of the word "should" (a person have some religion or spirituality in their life), makes the question much simpler to tackle.

The short answer is that a person "should" do whatever he or she needs to in order to ensure that their life is one of contentment and happiness.

The problem is that most religions do nothing to promote either happiness or contentment. In fact they do just he opposite. They justify suffering on earth as a preparation for a world to come and that true happiness awaits the faithful after death. In other words, they encourage delaying gratification or worse, accepting your position as your "lot in life."

There have been many atheists who have lived full happy contended lives (many of them winning Nobel Prizes.) Similarly, there have been many religious people who also have lived full content lives.

Happiness is not based on a religious crutch, or intellectual atheism. It's an internal thing. YOU are control of your destiny, not some almighty super-being. IF you choose to be happy and take the steps to secure your happiness, then your odds of achieving happiness are great.

It has nothing to do with whether a person is spiritual, religious or not. It is in your hands.


http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

[adolescentmasturbator]

I must say that I believe in God myself but if you are an atheist or agnostic that does not necesarily mean that you are unhappier. My major qualm is with organized religon. I have no problem with religon in general look at Jesus's followers when it was just a small unorganized cadre. Compare that to a highly organized Catholic Church in the Middle Ages and you will see the difference. Religon helps many people in life. But when people take over the religon and use it for the own gain in essence it is purely evil. I believe that I am in control of my destiny. God controlling everything defeats the whole purpose of living. That would predetermine who goes to hell & heaven so what is the point.

[The Blowhard]

Did you hear about the Atheist funeral? All dressed up and nowhere to go! ;)

http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/heck.gif
"My dog told me to kill you"

[sunndoggy8]

I understand what you're all saying, but it's just so common to hear people say that they were unhappy in their life until they found some sort of spirituality. And often I read or see people saying that it's important to have some sort of spiritual aspect to your life. I think it doesn't necessarily mean religion in that sense, but it's a blurry area between having spritituality in your life and being religious, it seems...

I guess it comes down to having it in your life, but not to an extreme that it becomes the strong crutch that you mentioned. I'm not the most religious person in the world, but the idea of having a stronger sense of spirituality does sound comforting...but again, I don't want it to be to the extreme of it being a crutch.

<IMG SRC="http://home.att.net/~sunndoggy8/sunnysig1.jpg" width=300 height=80>

<font color="#0F00CD">~~~~"The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool."-Almost Famous~~~~</font color="#0F00CD">

[HordeKing1]

People can be happy or unhappy independant of whether they choose to incorporate religion or spirituality into their lives.

It's irrelevant.

You control your happiness. Often you cannot change your situation but you can always change the way you think about and/or deal with it. That, my friend is the key to happiness.





http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

[Gvac]

Bump.

[TooLowBrow]

Bump.

Gvac's doing bumps to piss off Tenbatsuzen

[Tenbatsuzen]

Gvac's doing bumps to piss off Tenbatsuzen

Shit, he should start sharing, at least. Greedy, greedy, greedy.

[mendyweiss]

For a truly religious man nothing is tragic
Wittgenstein

[Gvac]

I consider myself an extremely spiritual person in the sense that I believe with all my might that there is some life-giving force in this universe that flows through all of us, and that there may be more to us than merely our physical presence and lives. I also question whether we continue on in some way after the death of our physical bodies.

I do not ascribe to any one ancient religion, though. I can't force myself to believe that one God or many gods are the ones controlling everything and meddle in our everyday lives. I could be right, I could be wrong. It's just my personal belief system.

I don't understand how anyone can think that you can't be spiritual without being religious, though.

[Tenbatsuzen]

I consider myself an extremely spiritual person in the sense that I believe with all my might that there is some life-giving force in this universe that flows through all of us, and that there may be more to us than merely our physical presence and lives. I also question whether we continue on in some way after the death of our physical bodies.

I do not ascribe to any one ancient religion, though. I can't force myself to believe that one God or many gods are the ones controlling everything and meddle in our everyday lives. I could be right, I could be wrong. It's just my personal belief system.

I don't understand how anyone can think that you can't be spiritual without being religious, though.

I was raised protestant/lutheran, mainly because my parents (or more specifically, my mom was).

My father, being a man of science, didn't prescribe to religion as much as she did.

My faith was teetering on the brink until 9/11 when religions, as they were, became a mess to me. Not just Islam, but Christianity, Judaism, whatever. Pro-life people, anti-stem cell people, their doctrine encroaches on people who may or may not be helped by what is going on.

A leap of faith is one thing; what can help you in the here and now is another.

[ecobag2]

Ayn Rand has gained quite a following by writing novels centered around her belief that reason itself and the truly reasonably lived life is a happy one.

This life sees adherence to reason alone as a god itself. In a sense.

Personally I look constantly to a more complete view of the physical world ... I'm aware that most of our concepts of reality are either false or incomplete and that science will help round out the picture.

Since I've been studying intro level philosophy again - it's amazing to me what has passed in history as a concrete proof of God's existence and, though I allow for the possiblity of a supernatural primary cause - in the end there's always a "leap of faith" that's required for belief.

I think the "leap of faith" is, in large part, that space of uncertainty that we're constantly trying to resolve and those of us that are to busy or uninterested in its explanation, tend to take that leap and lead happy spiritual or religious lives.

Some shit on religion or God out of ignorance or frustration, but those who truly dismiss religion in an attempt to explain that blank spot that faith bridges have my respect for trying at least. They need to be watched too. There are plenty of carnies looking for a pack of rubes in that bunch too - just as many as in those who use religion.

[Tenbatsuzen]

Some shit on religion or God out of ignorance or frustration, but those who truly dismiss religion in an attempt to explain that blank spot that faith bridges have my respect for trying at least. They need to be watched too. There are plenty of carnies looking for a pack of rubes in that bunch too - just as many as in those who use religion.

Religion, in the wrong hands, is a dangerous weapon.

[yojimbo7248]

I define a person as 'spiritual' if he/she seriously grapples with the meaning of life, what happens to us when we die, and the true nature of reality. I know this is broad and I include atheists, pagans, shamans, physicists, philosophers, etc.

I am sure you can live a very content life without seriously thinking about these questions. I don't understand these people, though. I can't help but feel that they are missing out on a important aspect of life.

I think most religions make people less spiritual. Certainty that you know 'God' kills true spiritual development, in my opinion.

[ecobag2]

Religion, in the wrong hands, is a dangerous weapon.

Its a better means of control than tactical nukes any day.

[Tenbatsuzen]

Its a better means of control than tactical nukes any day.

mmm, but when religion gets perverted to the point where the perverse have nukes... that's a problem.

[yojimbo7248]

Ayn Rand has gained quite a following by writing novels centered around her belief that reason itself and the truly reasonably lived life is a happy one.

This life sees adherence to reason alone as a god itself. In a sense.

Personally I look constantly to a more complete view of the physical world ... I'm aware that most of our concepts of reality are either false or incomplete and that science will help round out the picture.

Since I've been studying intro level philosophy again - it's amazing to me what has passed in history as a concrete proof of God's existence and, though I allow for the possiblity of a supernatural primary cause - in the end there's always a "leap of faith" that's required for belief.

I think the "leap of faith" is, in large part, that space of uncertainty that we're constantly trying to resolve and those of us that are to busy or uninterested in its explanation, tend to take that leap and lead happy spiritual or religious lives.

Some shit on religion or God out of ignorance or frustration, but those who truly dismiss religion in an attempt to explain that blank spot that faith bridges have my respect for trying at least. They need to be watched too. There are plenty of carnies looking for a pack of rubes in that bunch too - just as many as in those who use religion.

great point about reason being a god in a sense. That is such false separation between those who trust 'belief' or 'faith' and those that trust 'science' or 'reason'.

[Friday]

i am happy when i am in church on Sundays.
i never thought i would feel that way again... but something in me changed this year.
maybe a delayed reaction to my mom's passing... who knows.

but i started to feel the peace and thankfulness in church that i used to feel.
maybe the protestant church, with their cool pastors who can marry, is easier to relate to.
maybe i am glad to have found a community where people are willing to admit to their human faults and really work to overcome their sins by serving the community. i think i can relate to that. yep.

i can't explain my enjoyment of faith completely. and i would never expect any friend, lover, or acquaintance to conform to it. but i truly feel that my life is better because of my relationship with god. and i am finally comfortable with myself enough to accept and be happy about that.

:)

[ecobag2]

great point about reason being a god in a sense. That is such false separation between those who trust 'belief' or 'faith' and those that trust 'science' or 'reason'.

I didn't think of that really Jimbo. I'd assumed that saying "reason is my God" is a way of just replacing God's guidance with the guidance of reason... but you're saying that belief in God = belief in reason then? That it takes a bit of faith to trust rationale?

i am happy when i am in church on Sundays.
i never thought i would feel that way again... but something in me changed this year.
maybe a delayed reaction to my mom's passing... who knows.

but i started to feel the peace and thankfulness in church that i used to feel.
maybe the protestant church, with their cool pastors who can marry, is easier to relate to.
maybe i am glad to have found a community where people are willing to admit to their human faults and really work to overcome their sins by serving the community. i think i can relate to that. yep.

i can't explain my enjoyment of faith completely. and i would never expect any friend, lover, or acquaintance to conform to it. but i truly feel that my life is better because of my relationship with god. and i am finally comfortable with myself enough to accept and be happy about that.

:)

Friday - this is about the most perfectly unapologetic and respectful expression of personal faith I've (ever?) read. Thanks for this. I commend anyone on being at peace with their understanding of the world and the universe and whatever else there is or isnt or ... whatever - especially when they don't force it on me.

[RoseBlood]

I've posted my thoughts HERE (http://www.ronfez.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1363318&postcount=35) and HERE (http://www.ronfez.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1972559&postcount=46)

[Gvac]

Hearing Ron, Fez, and Dave wrestle with their thoughts on this subject today and the "reward" for following a specific religion or ideal got me thinking again.

Do you follow your religion or practice your personal code of morality for a reward of some sort, or merely because you feel it's the right thing to do?

[mikeyboy]

Hearing Ron, Fez, and Dave wrestle with their thoughts on this subject today and the "reward" for following a specific religion or ideal got me thinking again.

Do you follow your religion or practice your personal code of morality for a reward of some sort, or merely because you feel it's the right thing to do?

the latter

[FezsAssistant]

they might be two different things to begin with. religion is purely a business with dumb gullible clientele.
not sure what spirituality is. 'believing in something' maybe?
i don't have either, but i also can't wait to drop dead hopefully sometime soon.
i want this shit to be over with.

[Gvac]

the latter

Why so secretive?

[IamFogHat]

Hearing Ron, Fez, and Dave wrestle with their thoughts on this subject today and the "reward" for following a specific religion or ideal got me thinking again.

Do you follow your religion or practice your personal code of morality for a reward of some sort, or merely because you feel it's the right thing to do?

The right thing to do, like any good person, why does religion matter, and more importantly, is it more lazy or less lazy to start a new thread or bump an 8 year old one?

[ToiletCrusher]

Find happiness within yourself. When you subscribe to a higher "almighty" power for your inspiration you will inevitably be left feeling that you can never do enough to emulate that source.

[underdog]

Hearing Ron, Fez, and Dave wrestle with their thoughts on this subject today and the "reward" for following a specific religion or ideal got me thinking again.

Do you follow your religion or practice your personal code of morality for a reward of some sort, or merely because you feel it's the right thing to do?

because my parents told me what to follow when I was younger, so I don't question it and continue to follow it.

[jennysmurf]

All people are different. I was raised as a Christian, and left the church for a while, but I was never really happy until I went back. I can't explain why, it's far more than just being "the right thing to do." It's a part of me and who I am. I never push it on anyone, though, because we are all coming from a different place in our lives.

[A.J.]

the latter

Ditto.

[GreatAmericanZero]

i believe the point of believing whatever it is that you believe in is to feel comfortable in the universe. Thats the goal. I see existence as a shuffled deck of cards and it is up to the individual to put them in order however they can. So I don't judge people if they are happy with what they believe

I personally feel that, what people call "faith" i would consider lying to myself. So I don't believe in god and I don't think one word in the bible is true. That is the beliefs that make me feel comfortable in existence...and I think thats all that matters

Also, I think its a great thing when people take their religion and change the rules to suit them. Someone saying "i believe in a heaven and not a hell" is totally fine if it makes them happy with life and death. Personal Fulfillment...that is all that matters because...well...its all made up anyway

[WampusCrandle]

Hearing Ron, Fez, and Dave wrestle with their thoughts on this subject today and the "reward" for following a specific religion or ideal got me thinking again.

Do you follow your religion or practice your personal code of morality for a reward of some sort, or merely because you feel it's the right thing to do?

it's a mix of the two, and i find it difficult to believe that people who choose one or the other or happy with just that. people are rewarded with every action, regardless of its right or wrong outcome. also, doing what is right and not doing what is wrong gives you happiness, which is a reward.

[Thomas Merton]

My quote thing explains my position

Spirituality, yes

A specific religion with rules/dogma conceived by man for various dubious reasons, no

Ya gotta believe in something beyond yourself though

[keithy_19]

the latter

Seconded.

The fact is, you can attend a church and be part of a religion and be a terrible person. You can not go to church and not belong to any religion and be a great person.

I like to think, and believe, that God doesn't weed people out based on where they go on sunday or in the fashion that they pray. It's about bettering the world and doing the right thing. Helping others, caring for others, and doing it with a loving heart.

That's just me though.

[disneyspy]

Seconded.

The fact is, you can attend a church and be part of a religion and be a terrible person. You can not go to church and not belong to any religion and be a great person.

i dont agree,i know a chick that doesnt go to church and doesnt believe in religion and she is a great person

[Thomas Merton]

i dont agree,i know a chick that doesnt go to church and doesnt believe in religion and she is a great person


Um, doesnt keithy's second sentence agree with your point?

Best example of a bad guy who acted good was the church elder serial killer from Witchita, he had a knickname which I cant remember. What does a guy have to do to get people to remember his name?

[SatCam]

Btk

[WampusCrandle]

Btk

killer?

[Ritalin]

Bump.

I listened to Ron talk atheism on Audible this morning at the gym, and made me think about the whole issue of spirituality and religion. Specifically, what's the difference between the two?

I won't be coy about it: I think that people who profess to be "spiritual, not religious" are just posing. They're synonymous for me, only the "spiritual" crowd wants to separate themselves culturally from the "religious" crowd. You're at a certain party and say you're religious, people smile uncomfortably and move away. Same party, say you're spiritual and people take a deep drag on their American Spirit and exhale "me too. Amazing".

Where would you draw the line? Life after death? Religious. Soul? Religious. Order in the Universe? Religious.

Live a good life, treat people well? Philosophical, political even.

What gives?