View Full Version : The 9-11 resolution & Iraq
furie
08-27-2002, 10:22 AM
Does the 9-11 resolution signed on Sept 14, 2001 give Bush the authority to attack Iraq qithout consulting Congress?
This is a hard, because it's both a yes and a no. The resolution gives Bush full and sole authority to act against states sponsoring terrorism, in particular, Al Queda.
But the reason to attack Iraq would be more Iraq directly rather than Al Queda.
What do you guys think?
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jestah
08-27-2002, 10:27 AM
I think that our boy Duh-bya is trying waaaay too hard to try and pick up where Daddy left off. Instead of concentrating the few brain cells that he has left one one or maybe two things, he is so scattered all over the board that it is scary.
What seems worst of all is that he almost always appears to have some sort of other agenda for doing things. People seem to forget that before politics, he was an oil man and owner of the Texas Rangers and neither went very well.
Anyway, back on topic, the legislation signed does in fact give the authority to act against states that support terrorism. But to just be able to say that there are terrorists in Iraq without substantial proof is stretching this legislation to it's limits. He's already dug himself into a few things that maybe he should have thought about a little more, I don't know if his advisors would be so willing to let him try it again.
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philby
08-27-2002, 10:41 AM
Have you ever seen an angrier man than (pull my) Dick Cheney? His face is locked in a perpetual scowl. Look up "warmonger" and there is his hideous mug.
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Yerdaddy
08-27-2002, 12:18 PM
The Sept. 14 resolution gives authorization to use force against nations specifically involved in the 9-11 attack. If the Bush administration could prove that Iraq was linked to 9-11 then there would be no debate right now. We would be watching bombing runs over Baghdad on CNN and a buildup of at least 200,000 troops in the Persian Gulf, Saudi Arabia and Turkey. There would also be the international coalition in support of the invasion that we don't have right now.
But the stories of links between Saddam and Al Quaeda have all been speculative. Most of these stories have come from Iraqi defectors and prisoners of the Iraqi opposition groups, who have good reasons to make up stories to please the Bush administration, (some to gain political asylum in the US, others just to keep from being executed by the opposition groups.) All of the stories have been checked out by US intelligence, and none of them have been proven true. TIME magazine has an overview of the various stories of links to Al Quaeda by Iraq http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101020902-344044-1,00.html
Much is being made of an Al Quaeda presence in Northern Iraq, especially by Rumfeld. But two facts that Rumsfeld never states in the same statements anymore is that Al Quaeda is in Northern Iraq and that Saddam has no control over Northern Iraq - it is controlled by the same Kurds that Saddam gassed in 1988, and it is in fact the US-imposed No-Fly Zone.
The other act of congress that the Bush administration has cited as giving it authority to invade Iraq is the 1991 resolution granting authority to launch the first Gulf War. But the use of an 11-year-old authorization that was intended to authorize the removal of Iraq from Kuwait is essentially using a loophole to launch a war. It would undermine the Congress, it would not gain nearly the support of the American people that specific, new authorization from Congress would, and it would lead to broad changes in the War Powers Act of 1973 and limit further the war powers of the president in the future.
In short, if the Bush administration uses some back-door authority to justify a war with Iraq and the body-bags start piling up, (which the Pentigon is warning will happen), the war will backfire on Bush. But he still can't make the case of Saddam having weapons of mass destruction or being involved in 9-11. Because of these two problems, Bush has painted himself into a corner.
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TheMojoPin
08-27-2002, 03:50 PM
This whole thing is just because all the people working for Bush were in power when they messed up the last go-around.
Saddam is an evil bastard, but he is not, NOT insane or crazy or extremist or even a terrorist. That would be giving him too much credit. All the man cares about is his people fearing him, being wealthy, and controlling his country with an iron grip. He's a greedy, petty tyrant who only cares about staying in power. He's not stupid enough to gas Israel or set off a nuke in America, or even harbor terrorists, because the second any of those things happen, we'd swat him faster than he could blink, and no other country in the world would hold it against us.
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furie
08-27-2002, 04:02 PM
This whole thing is just because all the people working for Bush were in power when they messed up the last go-around.
No, chenney's the only leftover. The rest of the staff and cabinet is new.
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No, chenney's the only leftover. The rest of the staff and cabinet is new.
Secretary of State Colin Powell was, at the time of the Gulf War, General Colin Powell, USA, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
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Captain Rooster
08-27-2002, 05:25 PM
Take it from me, we need to procede with caution on this one. I am honestly torn on the subject.
I think weapons inspectors are the first move we need to make. Not war.
Yes, this is Rooster typing.
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Yerdaddy
08-27-2002, 05:28 PM
Saddam is an evil bastard, but he is not, NOT insane or crazy or extremist or even a terrorist. That would be giving him too much credit. All the man cares about is his people fearing him, being wealthy, and controlling his country with an iron grip. He's a greedy, petty tyrant who only cares about staying in power. He's not stupid enough to gas Israel or set off a nuke in America, or even harbor terrorists, because the second any of those things happen, we'd swat him faster than he could blink, and no other country in the world would hold it against us.
I agree with this.
Launching a war on Iraq as part of the war on terrorism confuses two very different security concerns. The number one priority of the Bush administration's foreign policy is our war on terrorism, which we are waging against non-state entities such as al-Qeada and Abu Sayyaf. Transnational terrorist groups pose a unique challenge to the U.S. precisely because they are not states and thus do not respond to conventional pressure. While deterence worked against the Soviet Union and even Iraq (the threat of a nuclear strike effectively detered Saddam from using chemical weapons against U.S. troops during the 1991 Gulf War, and continues to deter Saddam), it does not work against terrorists, especially suicide bombers.
Regarding the September 11 attacks, the FBI and CIA have found no connections between Saddam and al-Qaeda, nor any evidence of a connection between Iraq and any terrorist attack against non-Iraqis since the 1971. In 1984, this led the Reagan administration to give Iraq a clean bill of health with the State Dept. taking Iraq off its list of nations suspected of supporting terrorism. Iraq was later put back on the list both for political reasons (i.e. we were at war) and due to connections with killings of Iraqi exiles. However, since 1971, Iraq's fingerprints have not been found on a single terrorist incident against the West.
I encourage folks to read all of this for yourselves on the websites of the CIA and FBI. Of the FBI's 20 most-wanted terrorists, not one of them is Iraqi (ironically most of them are from our 'allies' Saudi Arabia and Eqypt). The FBI site also features a report on al-Qaeda's international links. Again, nothing on Iraq. The same holds true in the CIA's report.
Perhaps the most compelling evidence that there is no link was found in Afghanistan. U.S. Central Command (CentCom) seized a trove of documents from al-Qaeda and has interrogated hundreds of prisoners. CentCom also found Zawahiri's personal laptop computor, Osama's right-hand man, and cracked the encryption code. After all was said and done, what evidence was found to establish Iraqi involvement? Nothing. Not one damn thing.
The bottem line is that, despite being a mother-fucker responsible for war crimes and perhaps even genocide (in the case of the Kurds), Saddam is not a suicide bomber. As the leader of a state, he can be forced to make concessions.
And this is important, because our primary concern with Iraq is weapons of mass destruction. Thus, the U.S. should work to rebuild international consensus behind a return of a robust regime of UN weapons inspections. Throughout the 1990s, UN inspectors were able to render Iraq 90-95% disarmed. We must insist upon a return of those inspections. And as long as we do not have a President stupid enough to recieve blow jobs from White House interns, the U.S. will have no reason to wag the dog by bombing Iraq as Clinton did in 1998. That is why UN weapons inspections ended.
In order to secure a return of those inspections, a new UN resolution is required. However, such as resolution cannot simply be done as a smokescreen for war. The key to ensuring the return of UN weapons inspectors is an effective carrots-and-sticks diplomacy that combines pressure for compliance with incentives for cooperation.
UN and U.S. officials have correctly insisted on the right of free and unfettered access for UN inspectors. There can be no backing away from the right of intrusive
Captain Rooster
08-27-2002, 05:31 PM
Ugh......this is going to bother me all night.
I have a lot of friends who are still on active duty and a best friend who just was accepted to Special Forces.
I would go too if I was called but I fear the possibility of chemical weapons being used on our troops because Saddam will not hesitate if he feels directly threatened.
I will follow this thread.
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Death Metal Moe
08-27-2002, 06:00 PM
I say before we send in Weapons Inspectors to Iraq, we throw them a curve.
Send inspectors to all the local 7-11's and 24 hour gas stations in the NY, NJ CT area. That's GOTTA turn up something dangerous, if not at least, expired.
Just a little joke in the face of possible war. It is not really to be taken lightly......
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TheMojoPin
08-27-2002, 06:33 PM
I have a lot of friends who are still on active duty and a best friend who just was accepted to Special Forces.
One of my best friends just made it into the Rangers, and I'm hoping nothing stupid goes down that could get him killed for all the wrong reasons...
Of course, I had a lot of Israeli friends in high school, and the few I saw after their manadatory millitary service we're COMPLETELY changed. THAT'S a millitary machine that makes you a different type of man...
My dad finally was promoted into the senior intelligence level with the CIA about a month back and has shifted from straight-up counter terrorism to covert ops...I'm just hoping that any rushes to judgement don't end up getting him or anyone else I know hurt, or worse...
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Knowledged_one
08-27-2002, 06:50 PM
Well the resolution I believe allows us to wage war with any country that supports terrorism. And Iraq does that by giving money to the victims families of the suicide bombers that kill Israelis (Saudi Arabia our ally also has been linked to this practice as well).
Also Bush is not going back to do what his father could not finish, according to a law signed into effect by Gerald Ford in the 70's prohibited us from assassinating any heads of state or being the enablers in overthrowing a government, this was mostly because the egg on the CIA for failed assassintation and overthrow attempts in the Congo, Cuba, China, etc. etc. during the Cold War to stop the spread of communism. Therefore Bush could not have overthrown the Iraqi government because of that law, and only after 9/11 when the overthrowing of the Taliban was seen as the only alternative was that law revoked, so anyone saying GW is cleaning up his fathers mess has no clue.
However i do think we are concentrating to hard on Iraq, however Sadamm refuses to let in weapons inspectors, not us not trying to send them in, but i agree the war is the last resort.
And as far as the security council of the UN is concerned i believe the U.S. lost their seat on that council at the last elections sometime last year/early 2002, meaning we have no say right now on what is happening with sancitions against Iraq, we are not on that council to effect it one way or another.
And on a final note regarding these comments by jestah:
I think that our boy Duh-bya is trying waaaay too hard to try and pick up where Daddy left off. Instead of concentrating the few brain cells that he has left one one or maybe two things, he is so scattered all over the board that it is scary.
What seems worst of all is that he almost always appears to have some sort of other agenda for doing things. People seem to forget that before politics, he was an oil man and owner of the Texas Rangers and neither went very well.
1. By few brain cells you mean what, that Bush isnt smart. Well i would say in order to graduate from Harvard Business school (as opposed to gore who failed out of a seminary school), develop the tax cuts and budgets himself ( the tax cuts we had before 9/11 were the foundation of Bush's campaign which he himself developed).
And by unsuccesful business man do you mean that selling a baseball franchise for a profit is bad business sense or making money in oil is bad i dont know what is good. I guess making money is bad in your book then???
Bottom line Sadam needs to be taken care of, either through peacful dismantiling of his weapons or by force he will be gone by 2006.
Eat a Bag of Dicks
Yerdaddy
08-27-2002, 07:21 PM
And as far as the security council of the UN is concerned i believe the U.S. lost their seat on that council at the last elections sometime last year/early 2002, meaning we have no say right now on what is happening with sancitions against Iraq, we are not on that council to effect it one way or another.
that's the funniest thing I've ever heard. Thank you for that.
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As I've said before: you get rid of Saddam...then what? His sons? His cronies?
And what of the power vacuum in the region? Keep an eye on Iran...
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Captain Rooster
08-27-2002, 07:30 PM
I nominate Knowledged_one for King of the World.
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Knowledged_one
08-27-2002, 07:30 PM
My mistake i mispoke on that since they are permanent members of the security council. However i do believe we were recently voted off of some high profile committe in favor of like Turkey and Libya.
Eat a Bag of Dicks
TheMojoPin
08-27-2002, 08:17 PM
Sometimes the enemy you know is better than the enemy you don't know. And then sometimes you just have to bow before the Knowleged-one.
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Recyclerz
08-27-2002, 08:44 PM
I vote for Yerdaddy for Secy. of State. I feel like going back to college just so I could submit his post as a term paper. <P>
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NewYorkDragons80
08-28-2002, 08:50 AM
Instead of concentrating the few brain cells that he has left one one or maybe two things, he is so scattered all over the board that it is scary.
WOW, you really need to read "Slander: Liberal Lies About the American Right." Get up and sprint to Border's, my man.
Bush can attack Iraq without the resolution. Saddam is in violation of the cease-fire agreement, meaning we have the legal authority given by the UN to pick up where we left off in 1991.
Despite that, I would much rather have some hard evidence of a bin Laden-Hussein link. That would really force the world to support us. If we can investigate the alleged meeting between Iraqi intelligence and the Taliban in Switzerland on September 10th, I'm sure we can prove Saddam's role in 9-11.
International support for this war is of the utmost importance. Even in Vietnam we had South Korean, New Zealandish, Australian, and Thai military support not to mention the economic and medicinal aid given by countries like France and the Republic of China.
Right now, the only countries who are really on board are Bahrain and Qatar. Bahrain is easily the most modern Arab nation. This October they will have their first-ever elections for a parliament. Suffrage has been granted to all citizens over the age of 18 regardless of gender or religion. Qatar simply wants a US air base for the economical advantages it would bring. Bahrain is moving towards being a free nation and Qatar is geographically isolated from most of the Arab world. Neither is threatened by the emergence of Iraqi democracy and that is the only thing keeping this current coalition together. Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Iran are terrified of democracy in Iraq and the threat it poses to their own power.
As long as these monarchies are in power, they can fill their people with propaganda against Israel. With their own citizens focused on Israel's destruction, it takes attention away from their own government's shortcomings and therefore keeps these monarchies in power.
In order to conduct a functional campaign, the US will need some of her European allies. Otherwise we will be accused of installing a puppet, colonial government whether or not it is true.
"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur
"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer
This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 8-28-02 @ 1:16 PM
TheMojoPin
08-28-2002, 09:17 AM
"Slander: Liberal Lies About the American Right."
Lord, NO. Nobody should EVER read any book that tries the lazy, blanket finger-pointing that books like "Slander" do, or any of the so-called "liberal" books that do the same...seek out ones like "You Are Being Lied To", "Everything You Know Is Wrong", "It's The Media, Stupid" and the annual "Censored" series put out by Seven Stories press...at least those books point out how EVERYONE gets it wrong, Fox News AND CNN...
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-TMP
NewYorkDragons80
08-28-2002, 09:19 AM
Here is a very short list of possible leaders of Iraq. I apologize for its brevity, it was the quickest one I could find.
Meeting of Iraqi Opposition Leaders
Iraqi opposition leaders met today at the State Department with Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Marc Grossman and Under Secretary of Defense (Policy) Douglas J. Feith.
The Iraqi leaders attending the meeting were: Sharif Ali bin Hussein of the Constitutional Monarchy Movement; Iyad Allawi of the Iraqi National Accord, Abdelaziz al Hakim (representing Muhammad Bakr Al-Hakim) of the Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, Hoshyar Zebari (representing Masoud Barzani) of the Kurdistan Democratic Party, Ahmad Chalabi of the Iraqi National Congress, and Jalal Talabani of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan.
The group had a productive discussion focusing on coordination of the U.S. government's work with the Iraqi opposition and enhancing cooperation among Iraqi opposition groups. The meeting addressed prospects of holding a larger, broad -based political conference of the Iraqi opposition in the next few months.
The United States and the Iraqi opposition share a vision of a better future for the Iraqi people after the departure of Saddam Hussein and his regime. Our vision is for a democratic Iraq with a government that respects the rights of its citizens and the rule of law, no longer threatens its neighbors, renounces the development and possession of weapons of mass destruction, and maintains the territorial integrity of the country. We believe this is a goal shared by the international community. The U.S. will continue to work with those who seek political change in Iraq and with the international community to make progress towards this common goal.
"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur
"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer
jestah
08-28-2002, 09:29 AM
Maybe I should have clarified this better. When I said that Bush was all over the board, I meant that he is trying to be involved in so many different things that it's insane. I often wonder how many times he needs to be reminded where he is and what he's doing. I do believe that there is more going on now than is being told (for a change - I'm tired of reading details of "TOP SECRET meetings on damn CNN.com) and it kind of worries me that he's acting like there is a quota on what he's supposed to accomplish from day to day.
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Yerdaddy
08-28-2002, 01:20 PM
The Iraqi leaders attending the meeting were: Sharif Ali bin Hussein of the Constitutional Monarchy Movement: Iyad Allawi of the Iraqi National Accord, Abdelaziz al Hakim (representing Muhammad Bakr Al-Hakim) of the Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, Hoshyar Zebari (representing Masoud Barzani) of the Kurdistan Democratic Party, Ahmad Chalabi of the Iraqi National Congress, and Jalal Talabani of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan.
Sharif Ali bin Hussein - member of the Hashemite family of Monarchs. Carries little popular support within Iraq. Would have to be imposed by the US, (see problems with this with Chalabi). Iraq has a long tradition of secular nationalism, and would reject the imposition of even a constitutional monarchy.
Masoud Barzani & Jalal Talabani - Kurdish leaders of the KDP and PUK parties, respectively. With the protection of the US under the "no-fly zone" the Kurds in Northern Iraq have fared best under the last 11 years of economic sanctions and government repression. They have been able to assert some measure of self-rule and formed a parliament to impliment it, dominated by the KDP and PUK. However, the two groups, and other smaller groups within Northern Iraq, have only been able to hold the coalition together when the US has been willing to intervene. In the periods without American oversight, the two groups have repeatedly fallen into a state of virtual civil war. Kurds have long held a desire for an independent Kurdistan in the four countries whose borders carve up historic Kurdish territory. Turkey in particular is opposed to Kurdish leadership in Iraq, even over an autonomous Northern Iraq. Turkey has led a campaign of war and repression against it's large Kurdish minority and any Kurdish self-rule in Iraq is would be seen as lending hope to the Kurdish cause in Turkey. Kurdish rule over Iraq as a whole is about as likely as an Irish Prime Minister of England.
Muhammad Bakr Al-Hakim - an Islamic cleric and leader of the shi'a opposition group SCIRI (The Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq). The organization is dominated by the Iranian government, and Iraqi Shi'ah are deeply distrustful of the organization. SCIRI and Al-Hakim have no prospect for being accepted by the Iraqi population as a whole. It's goal is an Islamic government in Iraq.
Ahmad Chalabi - leader of the Iraqi National Congress, an umbrella group of Iraqi opposition groups, a coalition that has fallen apart in the last five years and is now little more than a vehicle for the leadership of Chalabi. Chalabi has no political base within Iraq, outside of what's left of the INC coalition, and it will break up once Saddam is removed. Chalabi has a record of corruption, and several members of his family and organization are under indictment in other countries for imbezlement. Congress has yet to account for millions of dollars in US aid to the INC that is unaccounted for. Most of all, Chalabi would be seen as being imposed on Iraq by the United States, a death sentence for any future leader. Any viable leadership in Iraq would have to be distanced from both Saddam and the United States.
In short, as of yet there is no Hamid Karzai for Iraq.
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sunndoggy8
08-28-2002, 02:06 PM
WOW, you really need to read "Slander: Liberal Lies About the American Right." Get up and sprint to Border's, my man.
Oh dear god please tell me you're not reading Ann Coulter and taking her seriously. Uhhhg. She's the same person who said that "the only thing I hold against Timothy McVeigh is that he didn't blow up the offices of the New York Times." Nice.
Nobody should EVER read any book that tries the lazy, blanket finger-pointing that books like "Slander" do, or any of the so-called "liberal" books that do the same
What he said.
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This message was edited by sunndoggy8 on 8-28-02 @ 6:18 PM
NewYorkDragons80
08-28-2002, 06:22 PM
Just keep in mind; How often are Republican presdients regarded as "stupid" in the media. Even a beloved president like Reagan was labeled "dumb." Somehow, the Democratic Governor of a state DEAD LAST in education is a "charmer."
On the issue of Iraq, everything you say of the INC is characteristic of the Northern Alliance. The Tajiks and Uzbeks fought against each other. When they weren't busy fighting each other, they were fighting the Pashtuns. You just need to give leaders of each party high-ranking roles in government. Chief of state, prime minister, defense minister, interior minister. I think it's fair to say Afghanis are more cutthroat than Iraqis.
You make some very convincing arguments and you obviously did your homework. I just think the problems Afghanistan faced were more overwhelming than the ones that Iraq faces.
"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur
"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer
This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 8-28-02 @ 10:33 PM
sunndoggy8
08-28-2002, 06:33 PM
So you're saying that George Bush isn't dumb, and it's a myth of the "liberal media"? Okey, (even if I did believe that) if you can't put together a sentence when it's being written for you and you've rehersed it, I don't consider you to be on the side of smart.
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Yerdaddy
08-28-2002, 10:18 PM
NYD80 - I only have time for a couple quick points on this. There are huge differences between Afghanistan and Iraq and between the INC and the Northern Alliance. Most of all, it sounds like you consider the Northern Alliance in the post-Taliban Afghan government a success. First of all, the Northern Alliance no longer exists, at least not the way it did before the Taliban government in kabul fell. The NA was formed by groups with the common interest of overthrowing the Taliban. Once there's no Taliban in Kabul, the Northern Alliance groups fell back into fighting amongst themselves and with the new central government. The warlords around Kandahar are openly defying the Karzai government. Two former warlords under the NA umbrella are now fighting for the spoils of Mazar e-Sharif. These things are still a major threat to the Karzai government and the only thing holding the country together is the presence of US special forces troops. The situation is not tenable as it is. Much still needs to be done, (and I mean the dreaded "nation-building"), in order to prevent Afghanistan from slipping back into the same warlord feudalism and make it a haven for terrorists again. If the US tires of this effort and bails out early, then we're back to sqare one. So at this time, it is still a long way from being useful as a success story.
The difference between Afghan and Iraq, in terms of the central government vs. the opposition groups, is that the Taliban was no more powerful than the Northern Alliance. The Taliban was only able to take control of the country with the assistance of the Pakistani intelligence agency, the ISI. The Taliban was constantly under siege. The Iraqi opposition groups have been routed by Saddam's forces numerous times in the last 20 years, most importantly in the last ten. Saddam has had years to consolidate his power, especially during the 1980s when he built up his military with the aid of the US and European nations. Opposition groups have never been a match.
So for the sake of comparison, the difference is: in relation to the Taliban government, the Northern Alliance was strong. Compared to the central government in Baghdad, the INC, (and the other opposition groups), are extremely weak.
Also, remember that the only reason that NA "commanders" were given positions in the Karzai was because they were armed to the tits, and there was no chance of disarming them. They were given power because they already had power. In Iraq, the population is not armed, only the government. The group that has power, and thus will have to be placated in order to prevent disintegration of the country is the Sunni Arabs, specifically the Albu Nasr/ Begat clan, which Saddam has placed in all positions of power throughout the government, as a strategy for consolidating power, and insulating himself from moves against him. Unless we plan on executing the 25,000 members of this clan, we will have to deal with them. We also can't even make contacts with them before we launch an invasion, because to do so is the kiss of death from Saddam's security apparatus, probably the most extensive in the world. Because they are so weak, and thus largely unnecessary after the overthrow, the INC and the other opposition groups will only play a very small role in the central government. The only leadership roles would be in the regions where Kurds and Shi'ah are large majorities. The INC is useless post-Saddam.
So a further complication in Iraq is that by chasing the Taliban out of the country, we had the opportunity to form a central government from scratch. In Iraq, we only want one guy gone, and we can only justify killing off Saddam and whatever segments of the Army and the Republican Guard that offer resistance. The political structure of Iraq that exists will have to be dealt with, largely as it is. This makes prospects for a post-Saddam Iraq infinitely more delicate than Afghanistan, which is still precarious itself.
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If I don't make you laugh, you don't kno
TheMojoPin
08-29-2002, 08:25 AM
If Yerdaddy and Horde King had a baby, it would just be one giant, throbbing brain.
Excellent, excellent breakdowns, daddy.
<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/themojopin.jpg>
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
-TMP
NewYorkDragons80
08-30-2002, 08:16 AM
On the Sunnis, they make up about 30% of the population while the Shi'ites make up 60%. If the Sunnis are loyal to Saddam for power, who will stop the US from stealing their idea and granting them power when we topple Saddam? If a clan of mercenaries is the only thing between us and a stable government, we should consider ourselves lucky. "Loyalty" is one nuisance they would rather do without.
The Kurds have fought off Baghdad and now live in unrecognized autonomy. If they were able to achieve this without US military support against an army that was once the 4th largest in the world, think of what they could do with our training and weapons.
The INC is based in London and is mainly an anti-Saddam coalition with no real military authority. Although it is dominated by Kurds, all groups are included. It was never meant to serve as the government of Iraq, rather it set a precedent to be followed.
Is the post-Taliban government successful? You're asking me to judge a government based on 7 months of existence. What has happened so far is miraculous. On September 10th, who could have predicted that Zahir Shah would once again be the father of Afghanistan, and Hamid Karzai would be heading a government that represents all tribes? It has flaws, but for an ass-backwards nation they have done a damn good job.
"In war there is no substitute for victory."
-General Douglas MacArthur
"If gold should rust, what will iron do?"
-Geoffrey Chaucer
TheMojoPin
08-30-2002, 09:12 AM
The only halfway positive thing I've seen was the report on the Afghani people playing baseball a couple weeks back. Looks like they'll be the 51st state by Christmas!
Eat THAT, Puerto Rico...
<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/themojopin.jpg>
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
-TMP
Yerdaddy
08-30-2002, 12:54 PM
On the Sunnis, they make up about 30% of the population while the Shi'ites make up 60%. If the Sunnis are loyal to Saddam for power, who will stop the US from stealing their idea and granting them power when we topple Saddam? If a clan of mercenaries is the only thing between us and a stable government, we should consider ourselves lucky. "Loyalty" is one nuisance they would rather do without.
Not mercenaries, but senior bureaucrats, military leadership, and most importantly, leaders of the all-powerful intelligence agencies.
The Kurds have fought off Baghdad and now live in unrecognized autonomy. If they were able to achieve this without US military support against an army that was once the 4th largest in the world, think of what they could do with our training and weapons.
The opposite is true. The Kurdish opposition has had military sopport and training since the first Gulf War, and the only thing that keeps Saddam's troops out of the Kurdish area is that it is the "Northern No-Fly Zone."
The INC is based in London and is mainly an anti-Saddam coalition with no real military authority. Although it is dominated by Kurds, all groups are included. It was never meant to serve as the government of Iraq, rather it set a precedent to be followed.
The INC is dominated by Chalabi who is a Shi'a from an old Baghdad family of wealthy businessmen that was forced to flee Iraq in 1958 when the Baath party came to power. The two Kurdish groups and most of the other groups left the INC around the time of the 1995 uprising.
Is the post-Taliban government successful? You're asking me to judge a government based on 7 months of existence. What has happened so far is miraculous. On September 10th, who could have predicted that Zahir Shah would once again be the father of Afghanistan, and Hamid Karzai would be heading a government that represents all tribes? It has flaws, but for an ass-backwards nation they have done a damn good job.
Not a miracle. An extremely difficult task of nation building that is only in the beginning stages and is showing signs of failure. The central government has almost no authority outside of Kabul, and even inside Kabul he is under assault, as in the assassination of one of the vice presidents, Hajji Abdul Qadir, last month and aviation and tourism minister, Abdul Rahman in February. The only thing holding the warlords at bay is the presence of US Special Forces. If they are pulled away to Iraq, what's left of the fragile coalition of support around Karzai will fall apart.
On the nature of the Iraqi opposition and the politcal and bureaucratic structures in Iraq, I don't know where you're getting your information, but it's not good. We've agreed and disagreed on these international relations issues for a long time now, so hope you know I respect your opinions, but I'd like to see how your view of things are with better sources. I suggest you download the pdf of the trascripts of the Senate hearings held on July 31 and August 1. I put these in pdf form and created the bookmarks to the panels and subitted statements for a friend's organization, so it's easy to navigate. Read the submitted statement of Phebe Marr, from the National Defense Institute, and the Q&A for the fourth witness panel titled "The Day After". http://epic-usa.org/policywatch/senhearings01.pdf
On Afghanistan, there's a great article by a long-time expert on Afghanistan in the NYT on the current state of Afghanistan. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/28/magazine/28NATION.html?pagewanted=print&position=top
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If I don't make you laugh, you don't know what felch means.
This message was edited by Yerdaddy on 8-30-02 @ 5:01 PM
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