Alec Baldwin: Horse's Ass

[The Blowhard]

Actor compares 2000 election to Sept. 11
Alec Baldwin says disputed vote damaged democracy
By Bill Cotterell
DEMOCRAT SENIOR WRITER

Florida's 2000 presidential election fiasco damaged democracy as badly as the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks hurt the nation, actor Alec Baldwin said Thursday.

Baldwin told a Florida A&M University audience that President Bush and his brother, Gov. Jeb Bush, are hoping that a wartime "moratorium on criticizing the government" will help Republicans in the fall elections.

Baldwin, a New Yorker, said memories of Sept. 11 have overshadowed public doubts about the 36-day recount of Florida presidential ballots. He said the war makes it hard for Bush critics to remind voters of "this other disaster that we faced in this country - a disaster that ... has done as much damage to our country as any terrorist attack could do, in some ways.

"I know that's a harsh thing to say, perhaps, but I believe that what happened in 2000 did as much damage to the pillars of democracy as terrorists did to the pillars of commerce in New York City," Baldwin said, drawing applause from the breakfast audience of about 200.

Bush spokeswoman Elizabeth Hirst said the governor signed legislation last year providing $24 million in election-reform funding over two years, including $6 million for voter education and $2 million for a statewide registration database. Much of the rest will go for replacing punch-card voting equipment and training poll workers to avoid what happened in the presidential election.

"Florida has moved on and America has moved on," she said. "We've got a president with incredibly high ratings now."

The governor also is running substantially ahead of Democratic challengers in Florida polls.

Baldwin is a board member of People for the American Way, a liberal lobbying group that sponsored the two-day observation of the second anniversary of a mass march on Tallahassee. The march protested the governor's 1999 executive orders that supplanted affirmative action in university admissions and state contracting.

As in a rally at St. Mary's Primitive Baptist Church on Wednesday night, speakers at the FAMU prayer breakfast focused more on the disputed 2000 presidential election than the One Florida protests they were commemorating. Baldwin and other speakers warned that voters will face new challenges this year because legislative and congressional redistricting is changing political boundaries.

He said the White House and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, along with the governor and other Republican leaders, are banking on the news media and voters staying distracted by the war on terrorism.

"When Donald Rumsfeld and the Pentagon spokespeople say to you, 'Well, this is going to be a long war, we're going to be in Afghanistan for the long haul,' what that euphemism means is that the moratorium on criticizing the government must be extended longer and longer and longer - ideally, beyond the 2002 election," Baldwin said.

Participants in the rally and prayer breakfast included Sen. Kendrick Meek, D-Miami, and former Rep. Tony Hill of Jacksonville. The two staged a sit-in at the lieutenant governor's office Jan. 18-19, 2000, demanding to see Bush about One Florida. The sit-in led to a March 7 march of about 12,000 protesters on the Capitol and a voter-registration drive that boosted black turnout by about 65 percent in the presidential election.

Meek said the governor could be in trouble if people "remember in November" what happened two years ago.

"It's like a hurricane, starting like a tropical storm and going to Category 1, Category 2," Meek said. "That's what I feel is coming in November. In this upcoming election, for the first time in state history, we're going to make sure everyone's vote is counted."





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"If life was fair, Elvis would be alive and all the impersonators would be dead"

[furie]

alec baldwin should have left the
US when bush won.

and BTW The Shadow sucked!




<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/thanos.jpg" width=300 height=100 >

[Gvac]

Another moron who thinks that because he makes movies he's some kind of intellectual. He's a king-sized jackass, and one of the most anti-American Hollywooders since Hanoi Jane.

Thank God no one takes him seriously.


<img src=http://gvac.50megs.com/images/capsig.jpg>

[Ralphy Ramone]

It's called posturing.And if I were him,I would have stayed with that P.O.A. and just drove her around from dog shelter to dog shelter,smoked my big cigar(talk about euphemisms)and looked at my bank book all friggin' day.
Just because you look like a politician don't mean you is one.

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[Jackie Sloan]

And Steven seems weird and comes across like a dumbass on the radio




Church bulletin: Low self esteem support group will meet thursday at 7pm. Please use the back door.

[sunndoggy8]

Okey, just because the guy criticizes Bush, it does not mean he's anti-american. Yes saying that he would leave America if Bush won was a stupid thing...thats a given. And I think while he compares 9/11 to the election disaster, it's obvious that 3000 deaths outweighs a presidential election.

But that does not mean he's anti-american, or that he doesn't bring up valid points. All through the months following 9/11, there was a specified focus on avoiding the results of that election in hopes of not bringing down presidential/political support for Bush.

To simply ignore this fact and say, oh who cares, that was so long ago, the war is more important, is more ignorant that anything you can blame Alec fucking Baldwin for.

I"m just fucking sick and tired of blind support and nonconsideration of things that really do matter, even if it was a long time ago.

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<font color="#0F00CD">"I love a good nap. Sometimes it's the only thing getting me out of bed in the morning."</font color="#0F00CD">

[Gvac]

It's not just because of his criticism of Bush that makes me say he's anit-American; it's his socialist/communist points of view that he's constantly spouting.

It's always the ultra-rich glamour crowd that feels the need to tell the rest of us "commoners" how to live, from Baldwin to Streisand to Martin Sheen. Their leftist politics are not only ridiculously unfeasable, they are also anti-American based on the very ideals this country was founded on.

As a serious student of American history, I can assure you the founding Fathers are literally rolling in their graves when idiots like this begin spouting off their nonsense.


<img src=http://gvac.50megs.com/images/9_11sig.jpg>

Thanks again, Rooster!

[The Blowhard]

Florida's 2000 presidential election fiasco damaged democracy as badly as the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks hurt the nation, actor Alec Baldwin said Thursday. <P>
Sunny, you don't see that Baldwin is politicizing the 9/11 tradegy? It's war Sunny, and it's all

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"If life was fair, Elvis would be alive and all the impersonators would be dead"

[sunndoggy8]

I think there's a big difference between being anti-american and having different views/ideas/poltical agendas than traditional democracy. Anti-american is a term that's thrown around way to easily, and doesn't encompass everyone who doubts or wants to change the system we live in. The founding fathers may be turning in their graves, but their system is more than 200 yrs old, and you'd have to agree that some american policies are a little outdated. Example: the electorial system.

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<font color="#0F00CD">"I love a good nap. Sometimes it's the only thing getting me out of bed in the morning."</font color="#0F00CD">

[Pootertoot]

I'd still go out for drinks with Alec if he asked me. He's a swinging cat.

Politicizing 9/11 bad. Exposing Bush for the election stealing empty minded born with a silver spoon in his rectum jackass that he is = good.

The stealing of the election was just as much a slap in the face to our American way of life as the Patriot Act and pretty much everything else that has gone on under the Bush administration has been.

Questioning your leaders, putting them under the closest of scrutiny is what we're SUPPOSED to be doing. Electing a man and letting him lead unquestioned in a time of crisis is like letting me babysit when you're in a pinch. It's just not a good idea. Someone's going to end up bloody and with a nervous tick that'll carry them through the rest of their life.

And I love this country just as much as the next guy. I wouldn't be able to half the bullshit I do in 90% of the rest of the world. But I'm not going to sit back and support a man to blindly lead me. For anyone who thinks Bush is a man honorable enough to lead us in wartime, consider this:

You may have heard something about Bush Jr. having served a full stint in the Texas Air National Guard. Yeah, it's a full if you count the time he left his post and didn't report back FOR A YEAR AND A HALF.

That's a man I want to put my trust in. He wouldn't be allowed to work the fryolater at a lesser restaurant, such as Hardee's, and he stole our fucking election in such a disgustingly underhanded manner that I'm amazed--wait, no I'm not. I hate everyone.

And to whoever said Alec Baldwin was just a guy who makes movies who thinks he can talk politics...when was the last time Alec made a movie? Where does he get his money from? Royalties from "The Shadow"?

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[JimBeam]

Two points :

Pooter - The idea of a President having to be a wartime hero or have won a Purple Heart to be , as you call it , " honorable enough to lead us in war time " went out the window when Clinton was in office. Were you one of the one's at that time to say' " Hey you didnt have to be a soldier to lead the country " ??
But now its different becuase a Republican is President ??

Sunndoggy - Electorial system is outdated ?? Whats the alternative ?? Popular vote ?? Take a notice of history. Popular vote isnt always the best way to go. Had that been the case, slavery would have lasted another 200 years. Majority cant always rule unfortunately. But its quaint how people want majority rule in one instance, for example the 2000 Election, yet they dont want majority opinions in other aspects, such as anti-Affirmative Action and anti-Same sex marriages. Obviously there are issues that fall on both sides of the political and sociological spectrum that the majority would love to control, but its not practical.
So my point is " If no electoral system as it is now, whats your alternative ?? "

I have balls !!!

[Pootertoot]

Huh? I didn't bring up Clinton. I guess you just assumed he was my hero. My example was not to say that you have to have served in the military to lead our country into war, because quite obviously, NO ONE that leads the war is actually on the battlefield. Just a bunch of fat white guys playing chess with the lives of american soldiers.

But you do have to be competent. And it helps if you're somewhat a moral character. And Bush is neither. Clinton was at least competent.

I'm neither Democrat or Republican. I tend to vote Democrat (in my head, because I've yet to see a viable candidate worth taking the effort to go out to an impoverished school district to pull a lever that would cast a vote that would be conveniently lost if one of the candidate's brothers ran the state and the candidate's cochairman on the election staff happened to be in charge of voting in that state as well) because Democrats are usually the lesser of two evils. To your face. Republicans shit on your paycheck and wipe it on you. Democrats are more likely just to give your paycheck the stinkhand and giggle while you sniff it.

Party allegiance does not diefy anyone. NO ONE is above questioning. Scrutinize EVERY FUCKING ONE, including those from your damn party, because if you don't, then we'll all be further fucked than we already are.

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[JimBeam]

I had no intention of turning this into the political topic I accidentally did, but since we are there ....
First of all I never said what party I supported either. As a matter of fact my ideology couldnt be summed up in the Republican grouping. I tend to be a bit more conservative than that. But as you say the Republicans are gonna " shit on my paycheck and wipe it on me ", well I'd rather that than the Democrtas taking it, dishing it out to whatever " I can't help myself, I need the government to help me and then go out and play Lotto " group there is. I'd rather a rich " fat,white guy " as you so elegantly put it, who works 120 hour weeks running a major corporation , get my money than a guy who's worked 120 hours total in his life before going out on " disability " at the post office.
I guess I was raised with an attitude to work for what you want and not epect to get hand outs.
But hey thats what the Dems love, one big hand out, but sooner or later, they'll be nothing to hand out.
As far a competency and Clinton, thats as much of an oxymoron as you could've stated. I'm sure those Vince Foster documents will show up sometime.

I have balls !!!

[NewYorkDragons80]

I agree with sunnydog, but I still think Baldwin is a jackass.

Ralphy Ramone, you are one funny motherf'er

If he wants to dwell on this election again, go ahead. He should just keep in mind that they did another recount after Gore conceded, and Bush won THAT too.

The ones I LOVE, are the ones who say "Well, Gore won the popular vote." What the fuck does that mean? When you showed up that Tuesday you should've know how the electoral college works, retard. Personally, I HATE the electoral college and I think we should amend the constitution to remove it, but I still recognize it as the current way things get done in America.

We live in the present, we dream of the future and we learn eternal truths from the past.
-Chiang Kai-Shek

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."
-Senator John McCain

[furie]

Okey, just because the
guy criticizes Bush, it does not
mean he's anti-american. Yes
saying that he would leave
America if Bush won was a stupid
thing...thats a given.


there's an old phrase "America,
love it or leave it." if he was
serious enough to think about
leaving America because his
political candidate didn't win(not
that it matters, both men were
so middle of the road i could
hardly tell the diffrence between
them) then he obviously doesn't
love America. And not loving
America IS anti-American
in my view.




<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/thanos.jpg" width=300 height=100 >

[Pootertoot]

Which recount did Bush win? The one that was stopped by the Supreme Court before it could finish with Gore a mere 66 votes behind Bush, or the much ballyhooed "absentee ballot" vote which Bush won but not by enough to edge out Gore if the actual recount had taken place?

Gore won. Not just the popular vote, but the election, because a couple of daddy's friends in the Supreme Court stopped things before it started turning against Dubya.

And we needed a political debate around these parts, lol. I can't just rehash child molestation constantly.As long as we keep ourselves civilized and save our vitriol for the politicians we love to hate, things should go just fine.

REMEMBER, NO PERSONAL ATTACKS ON OTHER MEMBERS.

Party affiliations really don't matter, because everyone has differing viewpoints from the actual party they're a member of.

However, you may have misread my statement above: Republicans and Democrats are both scumbags.

I'm all for capitalism. I want it bigger, faster, now. If you've truly earned your fortune, good for you. But I have no respect for scumbag corporate heads that fuck over the little guys underneath them. Greed begets more greed, and when a single human being is in charge of wealth that is greater than that of the entire population of certain nations in this world...well, that's fucking scary. And it's undeniable that 99% of them are fuckwads. Look at Kenny Boy and Enron.

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[sunndoggy8]

sorry, screwed up my post...hold on...

This message was edited by sunndoggy8 on 3-9-02 @ 1:55 PM

[sunndoggy8]

Sunny, you don't see that Baldwin is politicizing the 9/11 tradegy? It's war Sunny, and it's all

To restate what I previously posted I said this: "And I think while he compares 9/11 to the election disaster, it's obvious that 3000 deaths outweighs a presidential election." Of course I understand him using the 9/11 disaster in an unequal comparison to the election. It is a stupid comparison, but that doesn't mean that his original point holds no merit!

You're going to criticize someone for politicizing that tragedy? Why aren't you holding the rest of the country in the public eye accountable? When was the last time I didn't hear it politicized by anyone in politics(the president included)? Is it okey for them to do cause they're politicians? Is it all right for them to justify every single policy/law that's been enacted since just because they include 9/11 in their reasons, when in reality many are just using 9/11 for certain policies/laws that aren't even justified? I can give you dozens of examples of not only politicians, but corporations and celebrities and whomever politicizing 9/11. I'm not saying it's right.I think it's an idiotic and stupid comparison, but if you're going to hold Alec Baldwin, of all fucking people, to such a high standard, what about the rest?

Pooter - The idea of a President having to be a wartime hero or have won a Purple Heart to be , as you call it , " honorable enough to lead us in war time " went out the window when Clinton was in office. Were you one of the one's at that time to say' " Hey you didnt have to be a soldier to lead the country " ? But now its different becuase a Republican is President ??

To reinterate Pooter's point, no one brought up Clinton. Your argument makes NO SENSE, because Clinton was heavily criticized when he came into office on a variety of issues, including his "wartime experience". This didn't "go out the window" as you said when he was the president. Where were you living during those 8 years, because that, and may other issue that weren't quite as important as his ability to run the country were brought up.

Sunndoggy - Electorial system is outdated ?? Whats the alternative ?? Popular vote ?? Take a notice of history. Popular vote isnt always the best way to go. Had that been the case, slavery would have lasted another 200 years. Majority cant always rule unfortunately. But its quaint how people want majority rule in one instance, for example the 2000 Election, yet they dont want majority opinions in other aspects, such as anti-Affirmative Action and anti-Same sex marriages. Obviously there are issues that fall on both sides of the political and sociological spectrum that the majority would love to control, but its not practical.
So my point is " If no electoral system as it is now, whats your alternative ?? "

When did I say I wanted to completely get rid of the electoral system? I said that it is outdated! One of the main reasons our founding fathers(200+ years ago) put the electoral college into effect because they didn't believe the population had enough knowledge of politics, national policies, or even the candidates themselves. That is not the case in this day and age, because the media provides more than enough information on all the candidates.

-The most important problem: The electoral college stifles any 3rd party candidacy. If 3rd parties could work off of national support to build a constituency instead of having to win an entire state to make any impact, they would be much more successful. But the electoral system prevents this. Why you ask? Because it's easier to raise money if the fund raising pot's just split two ways, because it's easier to campaign against just one guy who wants to avoid most of the same issues you do, because there's no splitting vote-the two party system insures that you don't have to make any real commitments. Is this good for the nation? Isn't competition a good thing in an election?

Furthermore:

-The president with the maj

[Gvac]

I'll never forget when Alec Baldwin appeared on the Tonight Show and stated that Henry Hyde and his entire family ought to be stoned to death for putting Clinton on trial.

I wonder how the public would have reacted if Charlton Heston or Arnold Schwarzennegger or Tom Selleck or another prominant conservative said that about a liberal.

At the very least, God knows, the media would've raised a huge stink about it. And anybody that thinks that the media in general (and the Major Network News and New York Times in particular) isn't slanted to the left...well, I've got a bridge I'd love to sell you.


<img src=http://gvac.50megs.com/images/9_11sig.jpg>

Thanks again, Rooster!

[sunndoggy8]

If he wants to dwell on this election again, go ahead. He should just keep in mind that they did another recount after Gore conceded, and Bush won THAT too.

As much as I hate to disagree with someone who said they agree with me, NewYorkDragon, you're totally wrong here. Gore won both times, but that info has sort of been swept under the rug, so it's not surprising that perhaps you've been misinformed.

You're totally right that people should know something about the process before they voted. If they don't, then they have every right to complain, but no right to be taken seriously. Read the fine print.

there's an old phrase "America, love it or leave it." if he was
serious enough to think about leaving America because his
political candidate didn't win(not that it matters, both men were
so middle of the road i could hardly tell the diffrence between
them) then he obviously doesn't love America. And not loving
America IS anti-American in my view.

I don't think it's so obvious. I think having the conviction to actually say you'd leave a country for your beliefs is a pretty strong statement. Given he didn't do it, so he didn't back it up anyway.but if he did, it would have been a strong statement in terms of his belief system. Saying that he would leave the country does not OBVIOUSLY mean he doesn't love the country. There are plenty of people in other countries who leave for political/socioeconomic reasons and still love their country. The most obvious being Cuba.all those Cuban refuges who flee.do they hate Cuba? Not necessarily, just the way Cuba is being ruled. Cuba, Croatia, other countries that have gone through major political upheavals.leaving doesn't mean you hate your country.

I don't love broccoli.does that mean I hate it? No. I don't love my neighbor.does that mean I hate her? No. I don't love Alec Baldwin.does that mean I hate him? Well after having to actually defend him, yes I do hate him, and all of you, for forcing me to do so. It's Alec Baldwin, for christs sake.

Calling someone anti-american for having a foreign car isnt' fair, and calling him anti-american for disagreeing with the election process and the winner isn't fair either.


<IMG SRC="http://home.att.net/~sunndoggy8/sunnysig1.jpg" width=300 height=80>

<font color="#0F00CD">"I love a good nap. Sometimes it's the only thing getting me out of bed in the morning."</font color="#0F00CD">

This message was edited by sunndoggy8 on 3-9-02 @ 2:23 PM

[sunndoggy8]

And anybody that thinks that the media in general (and the Major Network News and New York Times in particular) isn't slanted to the left...well, I've got a bridge I'd love to sell you.

Um one reason why I'm not such a strong supporter of that belief is the fact that Clinton has been constantly mentioned and talked about though he's no longer the president. If you compare news stories on Bush winning the presidency and Clinton leaving, you'd see about a billion more stories about Clinton. Even now, he's still constantly talked about...blamed for 9/11, blamed for the economy, blamed for whatever you want. Wow I think maybe the media forgot about being left wing for a while.

Maybe they forgot about being left wing when they didn't publicize the actual results of the 2000 election too. They were just left wing with that.

It's easy to say the media is leftist...things just aren't that simple.

<IMG SRC="http://home.att.net/~sunndoggy8/sunnysig1.jpg" width=300 height=80>

<font color="#0F00CD">"I love a good nap. Sometimes it's the only thing getting me out of bed in the morning."</font color="#0F00CD">

[Pootertoot]

I'll never forget when Alec Baldwin appeared on the Tonight Show and stated that Henry Hyde and his entire family ought to be stoned to death for putting Clinton on trial.

If our national attention and the countless intelligence agents hadn't been focused on where our president's dick had been, then we might still have the towers. Getting your dick sucked was a perk every president enjoyed up til Clinton, they just swept it under the table or killed the girl when it was over and done with.

And the moving to Canada thing was something his wife at the time said. Not him. How many times have you had to go to bat for your girl's mouth?

He was the voice of Leonardo Leonardo on the Clerks cartoon. And he banged Jennifer Love Hewitt when he got divorced. The man has to be cool.


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[The Blowhard]

America is a white Christian country, and immigrants like Pootertoot and Sunny should be deported back to Slovakia, where they still wait on line for toilet paper and David Hasselhoff albums. Democrat or Republican, there is no difference. They fuck all of us and they look out for number 1, and guess what, we are NOT number 2!
The fact is, many in Hollywood ARE elitest, the rich will always get richer and U.S. foreign policy will always be about opening Gaps and KFC's around the world.
Yes. I'm bitter. And cantankerous too.

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"If life was fair, Elvis would be alive and all the impersonators would be dead"

This message was edited by Heckler on 3-9-02 @ 3:40 PM

[NewYorkDragons80]

Yes, the recount was halted. Then there was ANOTHER recount that was held after the outcry from the left wing. This second recount was also won by George W. Bush.

We live in the present, we dream of the future and we learn eternal truths from the past.
-Chiang Kai-Shek

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."
-Senator John McCain

[NewYorkDragons80]

Conservatives are lucky there is a Fox News, otherwise nobody would hear them. Let's face it; Hollywood is run by liberals.

You make reference to slavery, but that is ridiculous. The people never decided to abolish slavery, it was the representatives they elected. Even if there was a direct vote by the people to decide on slavery, let the people decide. By no means was slavery a good thing, but if the people of the United States decided to stand behind slavery, it is the responsibility of the people to accept the policy. If they don't like it, they should do eveything in their power to do away with it, but they should still recognize its existence.

We live in the present, we dream of the future and we learn eternal truths from the past.
-Chiang Kai-Shek

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."
-Senator John McCain

[sunndoggy8]

Yes, the recount was halted. Then there was ANOTHER recount that was held after the outcry from the left wing. This second recount was also won by George W. Bush.


What are you talking about NewYorkDragon? Where are you getting this information ? Are you just making it up as you go along? You're completely wrong! I don't mean to knock you, but what the hell are you talking about?! This is completely not true, and I don't understand where you're getting this information. It's like you're from some parallel universe. You're wrong! Please tell me where you got your information from!

<IMG SRC="http://home.att.net/~sunndoggy8/sunnysig1.jpg" width=300 height=80>

<font color="#0F00CD">"I love a good nap. Sometimes it's the only thing getting me out of bed in the morning."</font color="#0F00CD">

[sunndoggy8]

Conservatives are lucky there is a Fox News, otherwise nobody would hear them. Let's face it: Hollywood is run by liberals.


Okey, this makes no sense either NewYorkDragon. If even you were correct about the media being liberal and "run by hollywood", why in the hell would you say that FoxNews isn't?! What makes them ultra conservative? And are you saying that their network channel isn't conservative? So wait they're being run half conservative, half liberal? What about FoxSports? What party are they affiliated with?

Please back up your statements, and this goes for GVAC too, about the media being liberal. Making a blanketing statement is fine if you back it up with some FACTS! Facts...anyone ever hear of those? Not made up stories, not things the way you "think" they are, but actual FACTS!

You make reference to slavery, but that is ridiculous. The people never decided to abolish slavery, it was the representatives they elected.


Again, where are you getting this info from? You can't just MAKE IT UP! NewYorkDragon, I got nothing against ya, but please, give me something that makes some sense. What history books are you reading?! Did you ever hear of something called THE CIVIL WAR?!

Someone shoot me please.

<IMG SRC="http://home.att.net/~sunndoggy8/sunnysig1.jpg" width=300 height=80>

<font color="#0F00CD">"I love a good nap. Sometimes it's the only thing getting me out of bed in the morning."</font color="#0F00CD">

[NewYorkDragons80]

According to CNN's ticker, there was a second "unofficial" recount and it showed that Bush won Florida. The story is from a few months back. It was overshadowed by 9/11. Now, I can't tell you how credible this recount was, which votes were counted, or who counted them because I don't know that much about it, but I did see it on CNN.

We live in the present, we dream of the future and we learn eternal truths from the past.
-Chiang Kai-Shek

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."
-Senator John McCain

[furie]

Saying that he would leave the country does not OBVIOUSLY mean he doesn't love the country. There are plenty of people in other countries who leave for political/socioeconomic reasons and still love their country. The most obvious being Cuba.all those Cuban refuges who flee.do they hate Cuba? Not necessarily, just the way Cuba is being ruled. Cuba, Croatia, other countries that have gone through major political upheavals.leaving doesn't mean you hate your country.


you can't compare the Bush/Gore election problem with escaping from a totolitarian state.

If Balwin didn't like the election result, the he show have show comitment to changing the system. Not making a declaration that he was abandoning the US. Whether he left or not doesn't matter. The fact that he would say he would leave demonstrates how little he cares for America.

As for revamping the system, I'm still undecided. Although some good points have been raised


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/thanos.jpg" width=300 height=100 >

[nickeye]

<a href=http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/04/03/florida.recount/?s=2>CNN's 4/4/01 story of full recount by Miami Herald</a> <P>

<center><img src="http://njpconsulting.homestead.com/files/dance.jpg" WIDTH=275 BORDER=2></center>

[Gvac]

Sunny....Dragon is 100% correct. In fact, three seperate entities recounted the votes in Florida, and all three came up with the same conclusion: George Bush won.

And do some research as to who owns Fox News and the New York Post. You'll find your answer.


<img src=http://gvac.50megs.com/images/9_11sig.jpg>

Thanks again, Rooster!

[seagullbeagle]

who needs a sunday paper when you can get this thread for free?

"education without action does nothing."----ignite

[sunndoggy8]

According to CNN's ticker, there was a second "unofficial" recount and it showed that Bush won Florida.

How can you possibly use a CNN ticker to be your main source for in depth news and facts. That ticker changes constantly, and you can't honestly hold an argument with something that flew by on the bottom of the screen that you think happened. Don't believe everything you see on the bottom of a screen.

you can't compare the Bush/Gore election problem with escaping from a totolitarian state.

Why, cause it's a good comparison?? Okey fine, you don't like that comparison, then I can give you dozens of examples of people leaving their home countries from everything to a famine to a better living wage to a better form of government or to a better tax system. These are all legit reasons to leave, and absolutely do not mean that the person hates their country, or is unloving of their country. If they have the belief to do something that strongly, it shows how much they even care about their beliefs for how the country could/can be.

Baldwin has shown committment to changing the system, by at least getting his thoughts out and expressing his feelings about it. It's so easy to judge a person based on what they say, and that they should change the system...why the hell should he? You can declare your opinion on anything you want, but do you have to back it up to make your point valid? He has, and you can't judge the degree of what he's done because you simple disagree with him.

Not making a declaration that he was abandoning the US.

Abandoning? So wait, if I move out of NJ b/c I dislike the new governor, do I hate NJ? Am I "abandoning" the state? If I quit a job because I don't like the pay or my boss, do i hate the company? Am i abandoning showing my hate and unlove towards it? Give me a break, Alec Baldwin has no obligation to stay in America if he doesn't want to. He's an individual like anyone else. Voicing your opinion on something and having the guts to actually say you would do that in support of your beliefs, which were TO AL GORE, is not antiamerican. It's 100% american. He didnt support Osama Bin Laden for President, people, it was AL GORE, goddammit.

Why should he have to show commitment to changing the system? Suddenly Alec Baldwin is held to such a high standard that if he voices his opinion, he has to back it up with actions and committment in order to make in valid? Whatever. Every other human being has opinions that don't require a backing committment for change. That argument just doesn't work with me.

It's great to be patriotic, but judging people on a strict "100% pro american no matter what happens or who gets elected standard" is ridiculous.

If you're going put your citizenship on the line the way Baldwin did to show his support for Gore and disdain for Bush, then I say that he has pretty goddamn strong beliefs in a Democratic president.

Now does that mean that he hates America? Um don't think so. I just don't see how you can say the guy hates America. Makes no sense.

nickeye-Thanks for posting that article, because it proves my point! from the article:

The Herald's review also discovered that canvassing boards in Palm Beach and Broward counties threw out hundreds of ballots that had marks that were no different from ballots deemed to be valid. The paper concluded that Gore would be in the White House today if those ballots had been counted.


This totally supports my point! And don't even start on the "oh those ballots were thrown out anyway" arguement, because the whole point was that they shouldn't have been! Your own article says so! THAT WAS MY POINT! THE RECOUNT SHOWS THAT GORE WOULD HAVE WON!

Gvac, i refer you to the article. Does it not prove my point?

And do some research as to who owns Fox News and the New York Post. You'll find your answer.

Uh oh, I think i hear conspiracy theory coming. Instead of answering my question, you

[The Blowhard]

Gvac, you should know by now that arguing with young college students is like talking to a wall. The majority have ZERO life experience. No offense to anyone, but look at what you are saying. Free speech issues? Slavery? Come back to Earth. <P>

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/hoodsAnimation.gif>
"If life was fair, Elvis would be alive and all the impersonators would be dead"

[A.J.]

Alec Baldwin is a typical Hollywood idiot. Imagine the reaction if some conservative had made a similar comparison.

The tragedy of 9/11 was the murder of 3,000+ innocent people. The only possible "tragedy" of the 2000 election was the revelation that people couldn't figure out how to properly fill out a ballot that had been used in prior elections. I wonder if they took they same care in filling out a 1040 form.

The most important point people seem to overlook is this: had Al Gore won his "home state" of Tennessee, the whole Florida thing wouldn't have mattered anyway. Hell, even Walter Mondale won his home state of Minnesota in 1984 even though he was trounced by Reagan. Name the last victorious Presidential candidate who DIDN'T win his home state?

[Captain Stubing]

Alec Baldwin = Horse's Ass. Sure, it's open to interpetation but, given his long history of assine statements (as documented by gvac et al) I feel comfortable with that generalization. He carries on a long tradition of Hollywood types who think that their fame and fortune somehow makes them smarter then the average bear. Remember Meryl Streep and the pandemic of alar?? <P>
As for the election, the media-sponsored recount ended with the finding that Bush won. The fact that anyone can find specific statements within news releases that somehow argue against that, or that it was printed on a ticker, does not change the bottom line of their findings which were, to reiterate, that Bush won. <P>
As for liberal bias in the media, does anyone really want to argue against that? I haven't read 'Bias' but I think that it justs tells us some specifics about a general trend many of us have known for years. If anyone with the resources of a research team wants to quantify that, I believe there have been polls of media types in terms of their voting habits and self-described political affiliations. <P>

Fezaesthesia - Prognosis poor...

[The Blowhard]

Just to clarify my comments: Everything is NOT in "black and white". There is a hell of a lot of "gray", so take anything you hear on the so called "news" with a grain of salt. FOX, CNN and the others are tools of huge corporations, so many times they never let the truth get in the way of a good story. They live and die with ratings, and care about profit, that's it.
As for Hollywood, stars have the right to speak freely, but too many times they come across preachy, arrogant and elitest, whether it's Baldwin or Heston. They live in a different world, and sometimes they need to be exposed as phonies and frauds.

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/hoodsAnimation.gif>
"If life was fair, Elvis would be alive and all the impersonators would be dead"

This message was edited by Heckler on 3-11-02 @ 10:34 AM

[A.J.]

From today's Page Six:

March 11, 2002 -- Alec lost a close election too
NO wonder Alec "Bloviator" Baldwin takes Al Gore's loss to President George W. Bush so personally - he, too, is an election sore-loser.
In 1979, when Alec still went by his birth name Alex, the eldest Baldwin brother lost his campaign to be George Washington University's student association president by one vote. After he demanded a recount which only confirmed Baldwin's loss, he dropped out of GW and transferred to New York University.
Baldwin served as head of GW's program board, which arranged for guest speakers and the like. According to GWU's student paper, the GW Hatchet, Baldwin, campaigning for the student association presidency, told voters: "GW suffers from one of the most pitiable public relations operations of any university of America . . . the administration is deliberately striving to keep the student body in the dark as to what they are doing with our money and our education."
The soon-to-be actor's platform didn't jibe with the students, and Baldwin lost the right to an election runoff with Mike Karakostas and Pete Aloe by a margin of one vote.
The young and not yet pudgy Baldwin got his lackey and program board underling, Thomas Blood, to complain to the election board and demand a recount.
The move made Baldwin the butt of jokes. In the March 8, 1979, edition of the GW Hatchet, National Law Center senator Dana Dembrow wrote: "Yes, it is possible for Alex Baldwin to not win a fair election. Alex Baldwin lost not because anyone cheated, but simply because his opponents were the choice of the voters."
"Not everyone in the University is enchanted with Mr. Baldwin's administrative ability as a result of the job that the program board has done during the past two semesters. Some of us, in fact, were quite disappointed.
"No Alex, we didn't vote for you. . . That's right, it was fair and square. It's time to stop complaining and congratulate the victors."
Several weeks after Baldwin's loss - and days after he made his transfer to NYU known - all eyes were again on him. The university heaved a sigh of relief that Baldwin's recount efforts were not successful.
An inquiry was started when the board's funds mysteriously ran dry and GW's student activities office accused it of mismanaging money.
Later, on April Fool's day, the GW Hatchet poked fun at Baldwin in a piece that was written about the investigation.
"Phallix Baldweenie, Bored Chairidiot, commented: 'So what if they found anything? I'll be at NYU before they can indict me!," editors spoofed.

[sunndoggy8]

Gvac, you should know by now that arguing with young college students is like talking to a wall. The majority have ZERO life experience. No offense to anyone, but look at what you are saying. Free speech issues? Slavery? Come back to Earth.

Heckler, how good of you to COMPLETELY IGNORE me disputing your statement about Baldwin politicizing 9/11. I guess it's easier to just avoid commenting on what I said(which completely kicks your statement's ass), and simply classifying me as a "young college person with no life experience". I dunno about you, but when arguments stop using facts and start using age or perceived "life experience" due to age as a judgement of a valid argument, your opinions basically go out the window with me.

The only possible "tragedy" of the 2000 election was the revelation that people couldn't figure out how to properly fill out a ballot that had been used in prior elections.

To this, I refer you to my previous post about the electoral college, to the unprecedented supreme court decision, the stopping of the recount, and the other dozen "tragedies" of the 2000 Election, and the electoral process in general. There were quite a few more problems than idiots not knowing how to fill out a ballot.

The most important point people seem to overlook is this: had Al Gore won his "home state" of Tennessee, the whole Florida thing wouldn't have mattered anyway.

I don't know what this has to do with anything we're talking about, because its a totally different issue. But nevertheless, what you said is true.

As for the election, the media-sponsored recount ended with the finding that Bush won. The fact that anyone can find specific statements within news releases that somehow argue against that, or that it was printed on a ticker, does not change the bottom line of their findings which were, to reiterate, that Bush won.

Okey wait, so which statements in news releases am I supposed to use? You tell me. The ones that are the "bottom line"? So I should ignore all the other pertinent information regarding the election, (the fact that votes were thrown out, the fact that other votes weren't counted, the fact that many people weren't allowed to vote) and just work on the idea that the title of CNN's article, in this case was that Bush one? So I should just take out all the facts and injustices of the election, and just accept that as the bottom line? Getting to the bottom line unfairly and unjustly does take away from it, don't you think?

Just to clarify my comments: Everything is NOT in "black and white". There is a hell of a lot of "gray", so take anything you hear on the so called "news" with a grain of salt. FOX, CNN and the others are tools of huge corporations, so many times they never let the truth get in the way of a good story. They live and die with ratings, and care about profit, that's it. As for Hollywood, stars have the right to speak freely, but too many times they come across preachy, arrogant and elitest, whether it's Baldwin or Heston. They live in a different world, and sometimes they need to be exposed as phonies and frauds.

I agree. But for the millionth time, there's a big difference between being preachy, arrogant, and elitist, and being anti-american. That's the whole central point here.

In terms of that article about Alec Baldwin, his election process didn't seem to have any of the problems that our electoral process had and does still have(referring to my other electoral process post). I get that it's supposed to show that he's a sore loser, but again, not at all the same circumstances in terms of the injustices that the electoral system still promotes to this day.

I am just about sick of defending Alec Baldwin's opinions, and right to have them. I didn't even vote for Al Gore. Personally, I can't stand him. And I don't consider myself to be a Democrat, which I'm sure all of you think only because I am defending them.

My whole point is that I don't und

[A.J.]

Sunndoggy8, <P>
My comment:

[The Blowhard]

Sunny, take a chill pill. The point of this thread was to bash Baldwin and his arrogance. I never said he had no right to speak his mind. Hollywood is out of touch with America, that was my point. As for my comments about "life experience", I was just having fun with you, so lighten up.
<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/hoodsAnimation.gif>
"If life was fair, Elvis would be alive and all the impersonators would be dead"

This message was edited by Heckler on 3-11-02 @ 5:49 PM

[sunndoggy8]

Everything I said in terms of freedom of speech and Anti-amercanism was not directed at you anyway, Heckler. I know you didn't say that, and nowhere did I say you did. I was commenting to the comments by the other posters as well.

Of course I understand the point about Hollywood! But the discussion turned from what your original point was, and evolved into something more political.

My main point was that you asked me a question about the politicizing of 9/11, i answered, and you made no comment!

I'll be waiting for your answer, old man.

<IMG SRC="http://home.att.net/~sunndoggy8/sunnysig1.jpg" width=300 height=80>

<font color="#0F00CD">"I love a good nap. Sometimes it's the only thing getting me out of bed in the morning."</font color="#0F00CD">

[The Blowhard]

I'll be waiting for your answer, old man.


Okay kid, put down the Moutain Dew and listen.
Alec Baldwin's comments were, in my opinion, asenine. He is a major Democratic fundraiser, and his hatred of GW runs deep. Politicizing? Damn straight. Baldwin has political aspirations, and yes, I predict he will run for office one day, probably after he "stones" Henry Hyde. So there.

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/hoodsAnimation.gif>
"If life was fair, Elvis would be alive and all the impersonators would be dead"

[A.J.]

Sorry: My message got cut before...

Sunndoggy, my comment, "The most important point people seem to overlook is this: had Al Gore won his 'home state' of Tennessee, the whole Florida thing wouldn't have mattered anyway"... was simply to point out that the Florida recount shouldn't have even been a factor in the election. Was it questionable? Of course. Was it unfortunate? Certainly -- I think it's tough for either candidate to be thrilled coming into office that way and I'm sure the was some disenfranchisement. That isn't the point here.

What I should have been more clear about is that the point IS that Baldwin used poor judgement and poor taste to liken a razor thin election (the result of questionable voting practices [which also happened in Missouri by the way]) to the murder of 3,000+ people.

Of course he has the right to his opinions but I find them to be as ridiculous and insulting as those made by Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson that gays were responsible for the attacks and that it was God's punishment. Baldwin should have been called on his shit the way that Falwell and Robertson were (and rightly so). I found the statements made by all three to be incredibly insensitive and insulting to memories of the victims, their families and our nation.

[Gvac]

I hereby challenge Alec Baldwin to fight me on the Big ASS night of fights. If he doesn't show, he's a pussy.

End of story.


<img src=http://gvac.50megs.com/images/9_11sig.jpg>

Thanks again, Rooster!

[NewYorkDragons80]

Just for the record, I had no bias either way. At the time of the election, I was 16. In all seriousness I voted for Ralph Nader in my school election.

We live in the present, we dream of the future and we learn eternal truths from the past.
-Chiang Kai-Shek

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."
-Senator John McCain

[Se7en]

It's the "Alec Baldwin mentality" that will make me vote Republican this upcoming fall. Hell, I'll vote Republican straight across the board, just on principle.

The reason these remarks are stupid is specifically because he's trying to compare the election with the WTC attack. Now, you might think that Baldwin has some good comments to make about the election - personally, it'll be a cold day in hell before I care to listen to ANY celebrity's political p.o.v. - and maybe you're right.

But he's trying to say that the election fiasco was as important, if not more important, than 3,000+ dying on 9-11. I'm sorry, that's utter bullshit. The election is fucking trivial compared to that.

You don't have to follow Bush blindly, but that's not the point of why Alec is an idiot. I thought O&A had a good point on this - how many brothers did Alec lose on 9-11? You can't compare the importance of the two events, because the one VASTLY overshadows the other.

<img border="0" src="http://Se7enRFNet.homestead.com/files/RFnetSe7en2.jpg" width="300" height="100">

WWFallon = YOUR Emperor of Kings!

"Being a bastard WORKS."
--Spider Jerusalem

[A.J.]

Well said Se7en.

[sunndoggy8]

It's the "Alec Baldwin mentality" that will make me vote Republican this upcoming fall. Hell, I'll vote Republican straight across the board, just on principle.


If you're letting Alec Baldwin or other Hollywood types dictate your voting strategy, rather than the issues at hand...well you've got problems if you do that.

The election is fucking trivial compared to that.

Of course it is. We all agree that politicizing 9/11, whether it be Baldwin or anyone, is wrong.

But while 3000 deaths is mightly more important, who runs the country and is the "commander in chief" is a little more than trivial.

I thought O&A had a good point on this - how many brothers did Alec lose on 9-11?

Oh I see. So your opinion should only be listened to or thought about seriously if you lost family/friends in 9/11?

Death of family in 9/11= my opinions mean more in terms of politics. No death of family/friends = My opinions are stupid cause I obviously can't relate.

Knocking someone or thier opinions because they dont have dead family or friends from 9/11 is retarded.

<IMG SRC="http://home.att.net/~sunndoggy8/sunnysig1.jpg" width=300 height=80>

<font color="#0F00CD">"I love a good nap. Sometimes it's the only thing getting me out of bed in the morning."</font color="#0F00CD">

[Gvac]

I still love you, Sunny...even if you are a Pinko! ;)


<img src=http://gvac.50megs.com/images/9_11sig.jpg>

Thanks again, Rooster!